On 2024-10-03 5:38 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-10-02, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2024-10-02 4:30 p.m., candycanearter07 wrote:
>>> CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote at 13:20 this Wednesday (GMT):
>>>> On 2024-10-02 9:09 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-10-02, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>>> I'm not fan of Apple's control freakness either. And I don't like that Dell
>>>>> (and the others, I believe) are following in their footsteps. I think the
>>>>> object is an attempt to force a new computer on you every four years, or so.
>>>>> Built in obsolescence.
>>>>
>>>> Even though I can afford to buy one every four years, I don't want to. I
>>>> only let go of my computers when it is absolutely necessary to do so. In
>>>> fact, I know I would have made good use of the MSI I've had since 2015
>>>> had I not just given it away.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm pretty attached to my computers too, I've only owned about 4 in my
>>> life:
>>> MacAir 2010 (family computer)
>>> Thinkpad T410
>>> Thinkpad T430
>>> Thinkpad T580 (my current laptop)
>>
>> I imagine that the Thinkpads run great in Linux.
>
> I've heard that Thinkpads run Linux well, but I gave away the only one I
> owned — I think it was actually an Ideapad (lower end). I didn't like that
> the left Control key was in the "wrong" place. Otherwise I think it worked
> well with Linux. If I remember right, Thinkpads have a white list
> limitation, dictating what hardware will work in them and what won't. Dell
> doesn't have those limitations. (I may be wrong, it might be another
> brand other than Thinkpad that I'm thinking about.)

The only thing preventing me from getting a Lenovo is the fact that it's
Chinese. Getting one would also result in my wife saying "see, I told
you so!" since she's sworn by the brand despite the fact that the first
one she bought had hinges that broke and the second ended up being
shockingly under-powered to a point that even Teams wouldn't run. She
believes that Lenovo and the beloved IBM Thinkpad she owned in college
are one and the same and won't listen to reason.

I _DO_ like ASUS, especially considering how wonderful they've been with
working on my laptop when I needed to use my warranty. Their BIOS
updates also actually improve things, unlike the updates MSI provided.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On 2024-10-03 5:56 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-10-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 12:19:20 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunately a lot of the newest Dell laptops (at least the thin,
>>> higher end ones) have gone the MacBook route, soldered on RAM and SSDs.
>>> So, most likely, I'll be using older computers for the rest of my life.
>>> I don't like not being able to upgrade.
>>
>> I don't often do upgrades but I was happy I could stick a hotter i5, more
>> RAM, and a SSD into the old Dell even if I had to go SATA with the SSD.
>
> My newest Dell, a Latitude 5300, actually uses an NVME SSD, has 32 GBs of
> RAM and uses an 8th generation i7. Except for the 8th generation CPU, it's
> pretty modern. And it uses an Intel GPU which, for my purposes, is a lot less
> hassle than a Nividia or AMD GPU. It also has an oversized battery, with up
> to 8 hours of battery life, depending on what you're doing. The only thing I
> don't like about modern laptops are the keyboards. Seems that, with each
> generation of laptops, the keyboards get "twinkier."

MSI laptops have splendid keyboards, but most every other company's
keyboards are mushy and prone to failure. The MSI keyboard from my 2015
unit never needed a replacement but my 2021 ASUS keyboard needed to be
replaced in 2023.

> My micro desktop Dell Optiplexes are basically laptops without built-in
> keyboards or screens. All the components are interchangeable with laptops of
> the same era — same memory and Sata SSDs (or 2.5" SATA SSDs) or both.

Being able to repair is great. I am bothered by the fact that companies
think we're too stupid to fix our own units and solder the stuff to
protect the technology from ourselves.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote at 21:53 this Wednesday (GMT):
> On 2024-10-02 4:30 p.m., candycanearter07 wrote:
>> CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote at 13:20 this Wednesday (GMT):
>>> On 2024-10-02 9:09 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>>> On 2024-10-02, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>> I'm not fan of Apple's control freakness either. And I don't like that Dell
>>>> (and the others, I believe) are following in their footsteps. I think the
>>>> object is an attempt to force a new computer on you every four years, or so.
>>>> Built in obsolescence.
>>>
>>> Even though I can afford to buy one every four years, I don't want to. I
>>> only let go of my computers when it is absolutely necessary to do so. In
>>> fact, I know I would have made good use of the MSI I've had since 2015
>>> had I not just given it away.
>>
>>
>> I'm pretty attached to my computers too, I've only owned about 4 in my
>> life:
>> MacAir 2010 (family computer)
>> Thinkpad T410
>> Thinkpad T430
>> Thinkpad T580 (my current laptop)
>
> I imagine that the Thinkpads run great in Linux.

They do!
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 05:51 this Thursday (GMT):
> On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 00:07:23 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> MS is doomed.
>
> Remember the last time the US and NZ extended their daylight-saving time,
> within a relatively short while of each other? And all the trouble those
> Microsoft and Apple users had? First of all, having to wait for a software
> update just to change their timezone database, and secondly having the
> update play havoc with their automatic system time adjustment -- some
> people had the adjustment applied twice, while others missed it
> altogether?
>
> And then there was this other time where one of the Latin American
> companies decided to extended its daylight-saving time, giving only about
> a month’s notice of the change. The tzdata folks had a patch available
> within a few days, which Linux folks like me were immediately able to use.
> Because tzdata is just data, updating it doesn’t require any code changes
> like a software update does.
>
> But then, all that might have been before your time, depending on whether
> you’ve finished primary school yet.

Weird. Wouldn't it just adjust the UTC time it gets from the NTP server?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 15:40:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07
<candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote in
<slrnvfte5o.3drn.candycanearter07@candydeb.host.invalid>:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 05:51 this Thursday (GMT):
>> On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 00:07:23 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> MS is doomed.
>>
>> Remember the last time the US and NZ extended their daylight-saving
>> time, within a relatively short while of each other? And all the
>> trouble those Microsoft and Apple users had? First of all, having to
>> wait for a software update just to change their timezone database, and
>> secondly having the update play havoc with their automatic system time
>> adjustment -- some people had the adjustment applied twice, while
>> others missed it altogether?
>>
>> And then there was this other time where one of the Latin American
>> companies decided to extended its daylight-saving time, giving only
>> about a month’s notice of the change. The tzdata folks had a patch
>> available within a few days, which Linux folks like me were immediately
>> able to use. Because tzdata is just data, updating it doesn’t require
>> any code changes like a software update does.
>>
>> But then, all that might have been before your time, depending on
>> whether you’ve finished primary school yet.
>
>
> Weird. Wouldn't it just adjust the UTC time it gets from the NTP server?

Yes, but it wouldn't know when to reset local time without an update.

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.11.0 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"Windows: just another pane in the glass."

On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 08:39:05 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 10/2/2024 9:19 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>
>> They've used Microsoft Office as an excuse to stick to Windows for so
>> long that it's become boring. Other than DFS, I don't think anyone
>> realistically needs what the suite offers.
>
>
> I'm the only one in the world that needs MS Office? wtf?
>
> Face facts: the whole planet has 30 years of MS Office knowledge and
> experience, and many billions of documents in use and in development.

Somehow I've never used it for as long as it has existed. I only use
Libreoffice if someone insists on sending me docx junk.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 09:56:12 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> My micro desktop Dell Optiplexes are basically laptops without built-in
> keyboards or screens. All the components are interchangeable with
> laptops of the same era — same memory and Sata SSDs (or 2.5" SATA SSDs)
> or both.

NMVe definitely is better but the old Dell's PCIe slot was the WiFi card.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 10:07:10 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> Being able to repair is great. I am bothered by the fact that companies
> think we're too stupid to fix our own units and solder the stuff to
> protect the technology from ourselves.

Sockets cost money.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 08:39:05 -0400, DFS wrote:
>> On 10/2/2024 9:19 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> They've used Microsoft Office as an excuse to stick to Windows for so
>>> long that it's become boring. Other than DFS, I don't think anyone
>>> realistically needs what the suite offers.
>>
>> I'm the only one in the world that needs MS Office? wtf?
>>
>> Face facts: the whole planet has 30 years of MS Office knowledge and
>> experience, and many billions of documents in use and in development.
>
>Somehow I've never used it for as long as it has existed. I only use
>Libreoffice if someone insists on sending me docx junk.

LO Writer is fabulous. I've written typical letters, made cards, and
printed text to PDF to get an image of a good font of the content.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 09:56:12 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> My micro desktop Dell Optiplexes are basically laptops without built-in
>> keyboards or screens. All the components are interchangeable with
>> laptops of the same era — same memory and Sata SSDs (or 2.5" SATA SSDs)
>> or both.
>
>NMVe definitely is better but the old Dell's PCIe slot was the WiFi card.

To me the greatest advantage of NVMe and other recent hardware, is
lower power consumption while gaining computing power.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

rbowman wrote this post; take it under advisement:

> On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 08:39:05 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> On 10/2/2024 9:19 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> They've used Microsoft Office as an excuse to stick to Windows for so
>>> long that it's become boring. Other than DFS, I don't think anyone
>>> realistically needs what the suite offers.
>>
>> I'm the only one in the world that needs MS Office? wtf?
>>
>> Face facts: the whole planet has 30 years of MS Office knowledge and
>> experience, and many billions of documents in use and in development.

I'm sure that number is pulled out of DFS ass.

Maybe not. Does it matter?

"The whole planet" :-D

> Somehow I've never used it for as long as it has existed. I only use
> Libreoffice if someone insists on sending me docx junk.

Same here (now that I'm retired).

As I've noted, I find, after a learning curve, that LaTeX is a much more
comfortable way to produce documents (in PDF format).

I can edit the text in my favorite text editor, and tables, indexes, tables
of contents, tables of figures, tables of figures, and lists are easier in
LaTeX.

Microsoft is famous for taking processes that work well in text format and
converting them to binary so that binary tools are required to deal with the
format. A good example: the goddam Registry.

--
You recoil from the crude; you tend naturally toward the exquisite.

CrudeSausage wrote:

> some dumb fsck wrote:
>>
>> I'm the only one in the world that needs MS Office?  wtf?
>
> I meant the people in this newsgroup. Relax.

In pretty-much all markets, a small percentage of users need the
expensive, "high end" product. The vast majority, however, find
better value in the cheaper, "good enough" products.

>> That's not going to suddenly disappear because a degenerate GuhNoo
>> sasquatch tells his starry-eyed and gullible goob devotees that
>> proprietary software is evil.
>
> Agreed.

Even in the FOSS community, people who think like Stallman are a tiny
minority.

--
"I have 10+ solid years of desktop Linux OS failure to support my
opinion that ChromeOS will be another desktop Linux OS failure." -
another DumFSck failure

On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 10:05:00 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> The only thing preventing me from getting a Lenovo is the fact that it's
> Chinese.

Can’t go admitting that those damn Commies can produce a superior product
to good old Non-Latin America, eh?

On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 08:39:05 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Face facts: the whole planet has 30 years of MS Office knowledge and
> experience ...

No it hasn’t. The entire installed base of Microsoft Windows (the only
significant market for Office) has never exceeded about 1.2 billion. And
the world population is currently about 6× that.

Think about it: Microsoft’s market has remained stagnant over about the
last decade, while the world has continued to add about that many people
again to its entire population. That’s how irrelevant Microsoft is to the
needs of most of the world.

And that’s why Microsoft is increasingly resorting to rentware/adware
tactics to try to grow its revenues. And prop up its share price.

On 2024-10-03 6:27 p.m., chrisv wrote:
> CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> some dumb fsck wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm the only one in the world that needs MS Office?  wtf?
>>
>> I meant the people in this newsgroup. Relax.
>
> In pretty-much all markets, a small percentage of users need the
> expensive, "high end" product. The vast majority, however, find
> better value in the cheaper, "good enough" products.

I always vouch for my students to use LibreOffice if they're going to
require a suite. I teach in a poor area of town now so the idea that
software can be free is awesome to them. I tell them that they can go to
office.com and use their school e-mail to use an online version of
Office if they want, but if they have slow Internet and want something
on their computer, I direct them to LibreOffice's site. You'd be
surprised how many of them actually install and like the suite.

>>> That's not going to suddenly disappear because a degenerate GuhNoo
>>> sasquatch tells his starry-eyed and gullible goob devotees that
>>> proprietary software is evil.
>>
>> Agreed.
>
> Even in the FOSS community, people who think like Stallman are a tiny
> minority.

I won't lie: I agree with him on many points regarding technology.
However, a lot of it is great in theory. If software respecting his
conditions turned out to be more solid, I'd be overjoyed but it often
doesn't.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On 2024-10-03 2:10 p.m., rbowman wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 10:07:10 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> Being able to repair is great. I am bothered by the fact that companies
>> think we're too stupid to fix our own units and solder the stuff to
>> protect the technology from ourselves.
>
> Sockets cost money.

Is that really their excuse?

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 14:14:25 -0400, Joel wrote:

> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 09:56:12 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>>
>>> My micro desktop Dell Optiplexes are basically laptops without
>>> built-in keyboards or screens. All the components are interchangeable
>>> with laptops of the same era — same memory and Sata SSDs (or 2.5" SATA
>>> SSDs)
>>> or both.
>>
>>NMVe definitely is better but the old Dell's PCIe slot was the WiFi
>>card.
>
>
> To me the greatest advantage of NVMe and other recent hardware, is lower
> power consumption while gaining computing power.

NMVe is noticeably faster on reboot but the sort of stuff I do typically
isn't moving GBs around. HDDs never came close to the 600 MB/s
theoretically possible in SATA 3.0 but a SSD limits out. Ot probably would
be 5 times faster on PCIe or SATA-E.

On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 17:27:33 -0500, chrisv wrote:

> Even in the FOSS community, people who think like Stallman are a tiny
> minority.

If you look at the newer projects you'll see MIT, BSD, Apache, and other
permissive licenses, not GPL3. Some have wording like 'if you really want
to consider it lgpl feel free.' I think Wall was one of the first to do
that with his Poetic License.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 20:47:30 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> On 2024-10-03 2:10 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>> On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 10:07:10 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> Being able to repair is great. I am bothered by the fact that
>>> companies think we're too stupid to fix our own units and solder the
>>> stuff to protect the technology from ourselves.
>>
>> Sockets cost money.
>
> Is that really their excuse?

https://superuser.com/questions/1172628/manufacturing-cost-of-socketed-
versus-soldered-chips

There's a little discussion there. It's more than the cost of the socket.
With modern SMT processes a pick and place machine puts the components on
the board. Usually they are held in place with solder paste although
sometimes adhesive is used. Run the board through a reflow machine and
you're done.

Think about soldered on laptop memory versus DIMMs. First, the DIMM is an
entirely separate manufacturing step. Then you need to solder the slot and
retained hardware onto the motherboard, which is more complcated than
dropping on SMTs. Finally you have to insert the DIMMs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo677TyaDns

They don't show it but presumably in a real operation the robot is picking
the DIMMs out a a cassette or some other fixture. More steps, more money.

On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 14:11:21 -0400, Joel wrote:

> LO Writer is fabulous. I've written typical letters, made cards, and
> printed text to PDF to get an image of a good font of the content.

I'm sure it's great if you have a use for it. Back in the day I figured
dot matrix was good enough for proposals and letters. Someone said that
wasn't 'professional' so I rented a Selectric rather than messing around
with a daisy wheel.

When I left NH I called the rental company and asked them where they
wanted the Selectric. They told me to keep it. Every tech has its day. I
left it on the sidewalk and it went away magically.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 14:54:19 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Microsoft is famous for taking processes that work well in text format
> and converting them to binary so that binary tools are required to deal
> with the format. A good example: the goddam Registry.

It's been too long but prior to the registry wasn't there something like 5
different files you had to edit?

Linux wasn't any better with xorg.conf and the rest.

On 3 Oct 2024 18:10:27 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 10:07:10 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> Being able to repair is great. I am bothered by the fact that companies
>> think we're too stupid to fix our own units and solder the stuff to
>> protect the technology from ourselves.
>
> Sockets cost money.

And they take up space, which prevents you from taking your product from
“delicate and svelte” to “anorexically, dangerously thin”.

On 4 Oct 2024 05:22:19 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Linux wasn't any better with xorg.conf and the rest.

On Linux, they are all text files. Not only can you understand their
contents, you can use diff between different versions to see what has
changed, and copy/paste accordingly.

On 4 Oct 2024 04:49:06 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 17:27:33 -0500, chrisv wrote:
>
>> Even in the FOSS community, people who think like Stallman are a tiny
>> minority.
>
> If you look at the newer projects you'll see MIT, BSD, Apache, and other
> permissive licenses, not GPL3. Some have wording like 'if you really
> want to consider it lgpl feel free.' I think Wall was one of the first
> to do that with his Poetic License.

I’m not sure about the legalities of dual-licensing. If you look at
licences like the GPL, they have wording that says “if you don’t accept
this licence, then you don’t have permission to use the software”. That
kind of precludes getting that permission via an alternative licence ...

On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 20:43:56 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> If software respecting his
> conditions turned out to be more solid, I'd be overjoyed but it often
> doesn't.

The Linux kernel not “solid” enough for you?