On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 09:52:57 -0400, -hh wrote:

> Plus recall that NATO's charter is defensive, not offensive, which is
> why NATO has not been deployed & rolled forces into Ukraine.

What were they defending when they bombed Bosnia and Yugoslavia?

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_192648.htm

Paragraph 8 is relevant.

"NATO’s actions are defensive, designed not to provoke conflict but to
prevent conflict. The Alliance has a responsibility to ensure that this
war does not escalate and spread beyond Ukraine, which would be even more
devastating and dangerous. Enforcing a no-fly zone or deploying combat
troops to Ukraine would bring NATO forces into direct conflict with
Russia. This would significantly escalate the war and lead to more human
suffering and destruction for all countries involved."

Of course that goes against the tenor of the other paragraphs. I read it
as 'If we provoked Russia into an attack on NATO countries we might have
to defend something -- which we're not capable of'. The Yugoslavian air
force was a soft target.

You(rBowman)Replied(to Ahlstrom):
> > Didn't Putin [ carpet bomb Ukraine ] ?
>
> You are thinking of Victoria Nuland.

Who's going to carpet bomb Moscow when the time comes, China ?

On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 08:29:55 -0700 (Seattle), Relf wrote:

> You're forgetting Tibet, Taiwan, North Korea, China, Turkey, Georgia
> etc.

??? NATO played no part in Tibet. The CIA tried to stir shit with little
success and gave up.

Possible NATO involvement in Taiwan is problematic.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Taiwan-tensions/
NATO-could-be-drawn-into-Taiwan-conflict-affiliated-report-finds

NATO did not participate in the Korean war. Turkey's membership has always
been controversial. Although it provided the US with convenient bases it
appears to be drifting away inder Erdogan.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/foreign-minister-urges-nato-to-expel-turkey-
over-threats-to-invade-israel/

Georgia is not a NATO member. If fact that was the first concrete
statement by Russia that it would not allow NATO to set up house on its
borders.

> -hh wrote:
>>
>> Plus recall that NATO's charter is defensive, not offensive, which is
>> why NATO has not been deployed & rolled forces into Ukraine.

Is that why? Huh. I thought that maybe the fact that Ukraine is not
part of NATO might have something to do with how we've responded.

--
"Which is a source of burning envy for others. We all know that
chrisv falls into this category." - lying asshole "-hh", lying
shamelessly

On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 10:48:40 -0700 (Seattle), Relf wrote:

> You(rBowman)Replied(to Ahlstrom):
>> > Didn't Putin [ carpet bomb Ukraine ] ?
>>
>> You are thinking of Victoria Nuland.
>
> Who's going to carpet bomb Moscow when the time comes, China ?

China? Have you been snoozing while the world realigns?

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 07:22:46 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> As the money dries up I think Zelensky will find Argentina is a very
>>> pleasant place to retire if his generals don't retire him first. After
>>> all he has turned the most backward European country into a depopulated
>>> European country with a severely degraded energy and manufacturing
>>> infrastructure.
>>
>> Didn't Putin help with that?
>
> You are thinking of Victoria Nuland.

No I'm not.

--
Someday, Weederman, we'll look back on all this and laugh... It will
probably be one of those deep, eerie ones that slowly builds to a
blood-curdling maniacal scream... but still it will be a laugh.
-- Mister Boffo

On 2024-09-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 01:21:51 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> I find the Russian news to be more accurate also, but that's not always
>> the case with Russian "fanbois" on Telegram. They tell you every week
>> (for 2-1/2 years now) that war is going to be over "any day now." The
>> Ukrainians are good fighters, it's a shame that Slavs are killing each
>> other on the orders of Zelensky and his puppet masters in the "Deep
>> State."
>
> I've never looked at Telegram. I am surprised the war is still ongoing. In
> that first feint towards Kiev it appeared Russia was exhibiting a good
> deal of restraint.
>
> I don't think Russia wants the whole country which was a basket case
> before 2014 but I can see where they don't want NATO camped on the front
> porch. Since the Ukrainians don't like ethnic Russians anyway, cutting off
> the Donbas makes sense. The problem is the area has lithium, tellurium,
> and other mineral wealth. Russia already has those resources so more of
> the same isn't a motivator. However the countries that have sunk billions
> into the project would like a payback and wheat isn't going to get it. In
> fact Poland is already snippy about Ukrainian wheat bumped on their
> market.
>
> As the money dries up I think Zelensky will find Argentina is a very
> pleasant place to retire if his generals don't retire him first. After all
> he has turned the most backward European country into a depopulated
> European country with a severely degraded energy and manufacturing
> infrastructure.

Quite a few of the Western Ukrainians are Banderists (Nazis) who have been
groomed by the U.S. since after World War II, specifically to be used as a
fighting force against Russia. Eastern "Ukraine" was Russia until Khrushchev
made it part of the Soviet Ukraine controlled territory (I think in 1954).
All the industry developed in Eastern Ukraine was done by Russians.

Putin didn't want to destroy Ukraine, he wanted to insure that it wasn't
used as a NATO launching pad to attack Russia. The Deep State has resented
Putin and modern Russia ever since Putin took Russia's natural resources
back for Russia and away from the "global elite." Putin paid off all of the
Soviet War debt, including Ukraine's share, several years ago. He called the
Ukrainians "brothers."
I see Turkey has just formally requested to join BRICS. This should be
interesting.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-09-02, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
> rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> As the money dries up I think Zelensky will find Argentina is a very
>> pleasant place to retire if his generals don't retire him first. After all
>> he has turned the most backward European country into a depopulated
>> European country with a severely degraded energy and manufacturing
>> infrastructure.
>
> Didn't Putin help with that?

War works that way. But the war was initiated by the U.S. and their puppets
in Ukraine. For eight years Ukraine killed Eastern Ukrainians (10s of
thousands) even after signing the Minsk Agreement that was supposed to bring
peace to the region. They lied through their teeth and then, just recently,
bragged that they never intended to uphold the agreement they signed.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-09-02, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
> rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 07:22:46 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>
>>>> As the money dries up I think Zelensky will find Argentina is a very
>>>> pleasant place to retire if his generals don't retire him first. After
>>>> all he has turned the most backward European country into a depopulated
>>>> European country with a severely degraded energy and manufacturing
>>>> infrastructure.
>>>
>>> Didn't Putin help with that?
>>
>> You are thinking of Victoria Nuland.
>
> No I'm not.

You should be. The U.S. supported, illegal coup, which removed the ELECTED
president of Ukraine, was what started the war. And we spent billion$ to
insure that it happened.

History is damned inconvenient, isn't it? And when did the Democrats and the
Woke Left become war mongers?

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-09-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 10:48:40 -0700 (Seattle), Relf wrote:
>
>> You(rBowman)Replied(to Ahlstrom):
>>> > Didn't Putin [ carpet bomb Ukraine ] ?
>>>
>>> You are thinking of Victoria Nuland.
>>
>> Who's going to carpet bomb Moscow when the time comes, China ?
>
> China? Have you been snoozing while the world realigns?

I think Relf thinks Russia is still the Soviet Union.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-09-02, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2024-09-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 10:48:40 -0700 (Seattle), Relf wrote:
>>
>>> You(rBowman)Replied(to Ahlstrom):
>>>> > Didn't Putin [ carpet bomb Ukraine ] ?
>>>>
>>>> You are thinking of Victoria Nuland.
>>>
>>> Who's going to carpet bomb Moscow when the time comes, China ?
>>
>> China? Have you been snoozing while the world realigns?
>
> I think Relf thinks Russia is still the Soviet Union.
>
I believe you said at one time you have attended a religious school?
If not please forgive my error.

In any event you probably are aware of Gog and Magog.
Even the Qur'an mentions them.
We are living it now.

--
pothead
Kamala Harris Is A Marxist
Tampon Tim Walz Is A Radical Left Wing Nutjob
They Are A Match Made In Heaven

On 9/2/24 1:31 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 09:52:57 -0400, -hh wrote:
>
>> Plus recall that NATO's charter is defensive, not offensive, which is
>> why NATO has not been deployed & rolled forces into Ukraine.
>
> What were they defending when they bombed Bosnia and Yugoslavia?

My recollection is that it was done through the UN, with a series of
escalating sanctions that merited UN members to contribute. There were
also NATO forces deployed to oversee the peace agreement. Probably a
good case study for why things are being done differently in Ukraine,
but there's also no genocides occurring internally between different
Ukrainian religious groups too.

-hh

>
> https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_192648.htm
>
> Paragraph 8 is relevant.
>
> "NATO’s actions are defensive, designed not to provoke conflict but to
> prevent conflict. The Alliance has a responsibility to ensure that this
> war does not escalate and spread beyond Ukraine, which would be even more
> devastating and dangerous. Enforcing a no-fly zone or deploying combat
> troops to Ukraine would bring NATO forces into direct conflict with
> Russia. This would significantly escalate the war and lead to more human
> suffering and destruction for all countries involved."
>
>
> Of course that goes against the tenor of the other paragraphs. I read it
> as 'If we provoked Russia into an attack on NATO countries we might have
> to defend something -- which we're not capable of'. The Yugoslavian air
> force was a soft target.
>

On 9/2/24 10:14 AM, pothead wrote:
> On 2024-09-02, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 9/1/24 8:17 PM, pothead wrote:
>>> On 2024-09-01, Relf <Usenet@Jeff-Relf.Me> wrote:
>>>> Rioters should be subdued with mountains of soap & water.
>>>
>>> Tanker trucks and those helicopters they use to dump water on forest fires only filled with septic
>>> waste.
>>> Spray it all over the rioters and let's see how long they hang around.
>>>
>>
>> Israel effectively did that to their own citizens this past weekend.
>> Reportedly, a "skunk" maloderant chemical mixed in the water cannons.
>>
>>
>> -hh
> Did the markets run out of tomato juice?
> LOL.

I doubt that Israel has the IP rights to use the US version...

....but looking at the date on the below, its possible by now that its
patent may have expired:

<https://web.archive.org/web/20170409200339/http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/num2/science-that-stinks/1>

-hh

Best to not make a deal with the Devil.
China knows that Putin won't stop carpet bombing.

On 2024-09-02, pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> wrote:
> On 2024-09-02, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-09-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 10:48:40 -0700 (Seattle), Relf wrote:
>>>
>>>> You(rBowman)Replied(to Ahlstrom):
>>>>> > Didn't Putin [ carpet bomb Ukraine ] ?
>>>>>
>>>>> You are thinking of Victoria Nuland.
>>>>
>>>> Who's going to carpet bomb Moscow when the time comes, China ?
>>>
>>> China? Have you been snoozing while the world realigns?
>>
>> I think Relf thinks Russia is still the Soviet Union.
>>
> I believe you said at one time you have attended a religious school?
> If not please forgive my error.
>
> In any event you probably are aware of Gog and Magog.
> Even the Qur'an mentions them.
> We are living it now.

I'm aware of the names Gog of Magog, but it doesn't follow that I agree with
various interpretations of what this means for the end times.

I'm guessing that you believe Gog or Magog applies to Russia?

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 22:41:21 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> I think Relf thinks Russia is still the Soviet Union.

He's not alone. Mich of the current strife was caused by Cold Warriors
that don't want to give up. If anything US foreign policy has driven them
together. Sanctions on China after Tiananmen Square increased China's
reliance on Russian military technology. Sanctions on Russia made China an
even more valuable trading partner. china got the energy products that
Europe refused, cutting off their noses etc.

Nixon tried playing China against the USSR particularly after RVN became a
Soviet client, to the extent of covert support for Pol Pot, as well as the
overt opening of trade. How did al that work out?

It doesn't get much attention but the relations between China and India
are also interesting. There is a lot of bickering and the brief episodes
of bored soldiers in the Disputed Territories shooting at each other but
Modi and the BJP aren't as willing to kiss US butt as prior
administrations. Strangely they seem to take in account what is best for
India.

On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 01:37:02 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> I'm guessing that you believe Gog or Magog applies to Russia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Consecration_of_Russia_to_the_Immaculate_Heart_of_Mary

It must not have taken in the Ukraine with Zelensky banning a Christian
church.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/24/europe/ukraine-zelensky-orthodox-church-
ban-intl/index.html

To further confuse the issue the Ukrainians created the Orthodox Church of
Ukraine. I wonder if that's like Deutsche Christen?

On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 19:44:55 -0400, -hh wrote:

> Probably a
> good case study for why things are being done differently in Ukraine,
> but there's also no genocides occurring internally between different
> Ukrainian religious groups too.

Give it time noe that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has been banned.

https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/18131/laywer-warns-kyiv-against-banning-
ukrainian-orthodox-church

On 2024-09-03, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 01:37:02 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> I'm guessing that you believe Gog or Magog applies to Russia?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> Consecration_of_Russia_to_the_Immaculate_Heart_of_Mary
>
> It must not have taken in the Ukraine with Zelensky banning a Christian
> church.

I don't think it was ever done the way Mary wanted it done. It's probably
why the Western world will be chastised by Russia.

> https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/24/europe/ukraine-zelensky-orthodox-church-
> ban-intl/index.html
>
> To further confuse the issue the Ukrainians created the Orthodox Church of
> Ukraine. I wonder if that's like Deutsche Christen?

What I've seen of this new Ukrainian version of the Orthodox church is that
it's kind of like the modern Novus Ordo church, complete with charismatic
gobble-dee-gook.

(But I might have seen only the worst of it, as my source was Russian.)

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 22:34:25 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> I see Turkey has just formally requested to join BRICS. This should be
> interesting.

The EU has been waffling on admitting Turkey so Erdogan might be looking
for new friends. It took years before they were let into NATO but Incirlik
Air Base was so tempting...

On 2024-09-03, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 22:41:21 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> I think Relf thinks Russia is still the Soviet Union.
>
> He's not alone. Mich of the current strife was caused by Cold Warriors
> that don't want to give up. If anything US foreign policy has driven them
> together. Sanctions on China after Tiananmen Square increased China's
> reliance on Russian military technology. Sanctions on Russia made China an
> even more valuable trading partner. china got the energy products that
> Europe refused, cutting off their noses etc.
>
> Nixon tried playing China against the USSR particularly after RVN became a
> Soviet client, to the extent of covert support for Pol Pot, as well as the
> overt opening of trade. How did al that work out?
>
> It doesn't get much attention but the relations between China and India
> are also interesting. There is a lot of bickering and the brief episodes
> of bored soldiers in the Disputed Territories shooting at each other but
> Modi and the BJP aren't as willing to kiss US butt as prior
> administrations. Strangely they seem to take in account what is best for
> India.

BRICS will soon be bigger (if not already) than the West. It's the United
States that will have to worry about sanctions, especially when the
PetroDollar is completely replaced as the world currency. This is an
existential battle between the Deep State and Russia (plus its allies).

The answer for the United States is ramp up our industries.

Since Putin got control of Russia they're building (or rebuilding) hundreds
(if not thousands) of churches. Completely unlike the United States.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 22:40:27 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> History is damned inconvenient, isn't it? And when did the Democrats and
> the Woke Left become war mongers?

Wilson? Roosevelt? Truman? Kennedy? LBJ? Clinton? Obama? Biden? Democrats
are only anti-war when it's a Republican in the White House. That was
dramatically demonstrated locally. During the Bush years there were peace
rallies in the parks and Women in Black on the bridges. Obama? Crickets.

On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 18:17:34 -0700 (Seattle), Relf wrote:

> Best to not make a deal with the Devil.
> China knows that Putin won't stop carpet bombing.

You don't even know what carpet bombing is, do you? Bomber Harris and
Lindemann raised it to an art form.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Harris

"The aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive ... should be unambiguously
stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German
workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany ... the
destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation
of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of
morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and
intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy.
They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories"

Whatever karma brings to Britain, it is richly deserved.

On 2024-09-03, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 22:40:27 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> History is damned inconvenient, isn't it? And when did the Democrats and
>> the Woke Left become war mongers?
>
> Wilson? Roosevelt? Truman? Kennedy? LBJ? Clinton? Obama? Biden? Democrats
> are only anti-war when it's a Republican in the White House. That was
> dramatically demonstrated locally. During the Bush years there were peace
> rallies in the parks and Women in Black on the bridges. Obama? Crickets.

Yeah, you're right, but at least the Democrats used to *claim* to be for
peace. Now they don't even pretend.

I don't know about Chris A, but I sure don't want a nuclear war. I'm not
suicidal.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-09-03, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 19:44:55 -0400, -hh wrote:
>
>> Probably a
>> good case study for why things are being done differently in Ukraine,
>> but there's also no genocides occurring internally between different
>> Ukrainian religious groups too.
>
> Give it time noe that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has been banned.
>
> https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/18131/laywer-warns-kyiv-against-banning-
> ukrainian-orthodox-church

So far they're just stealing the real Ukrainian Orthodox Church's buildings
and jailing their priests and bishops (or whatever the Orthodox call
bishops). Of course it's not like Ukraine is a dictatorship or anything.
Zelensky's presidential term ended in April. So not only did the coup run
out the last elected president where the whole country voted, now they have
a "president" who didn't allow an election because he knew he wouldn't win.

And we call this "defending democracy."

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien