On Tue, 21 May 2024 20:34:14 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> Nobody uses Claws Mail ...

I do, that’s how I know.

Le 19-05-2024, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
>
> Maybe because Red Hat is all about the latest, greatest.

What are you speaking of? Red Hat is obsolete by design. Everything
provided by Red Hat is old.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 20-05-2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit :
> On 19 May 2024 10:54:06 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>> If the purpose is only to look at an image, feh is great. It's really
>> fast. When I need to use Gimp, I can see how Gimp is very slow to launch
>> compared with feh.
>
> GIMP has some nice analysis tools, though.

To analyse an image is not to just look at it.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 22-05-2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit :
> On Sun, 19 May 2024 08:14:49 -0000 (UTC), Sebastian wrote:
>
>> Red Hat is the main company in the Linux community ...
>
> Red Hat is only a small part of the Linux community. Consider that most
> distros are Debian, not Red Hat, derivatives.

On the Desktop, yes, Debian and its derivatives are the major part of
the community. In the industry, it's not the same, Red Hat is very
present.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:02 this Tuesday (GMT):
> On Sun, 19 May 2024 07:51:25 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>> Even the free software community considers Usenet to be dead. I guess
>> it's Thunderbird or nothing if you want a GUI.
>
> Claws Mail still has NNTP support.

Gnome Evolution does too.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 24 May 2024 17:13:32 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> On the Desktop, yes, Debian and its derivatives are the major part of
> the community. In the industry, it's not the same, Red Hat is very
> present.

Gotta have support! I wonder how many organizations really use RHEL
support? It's a little different since it is mandated but the last time my
car insurance company paid out was around '76 when I totaled my '73
Mustang. I suppose that's a good thing.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>On 24 May 2024 17:13:32 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>> On the Desktop, yes, Debian and its derivatives are the major part of
>> the community. In the industry, it's not the same, Red Hat is very
>> present.
>
>Gotta have support! I wonder how many organizations really use RHEL
>support? It's a little different since it is mandated but the last time my
>car insurance company paid out was around '76 when I totaled my '73
>Mustang. I suppose that's a good thing.

It's curious what I'd think I'd be getting out of ~$200 for Red Hat,
as opposed to a free distro like Mint. I don't care about support, as
if I'm going to call them on the phone or something, what are they
suggesting I could do with their implementation of the OS, that I
can't do right now? It seems imaginary, really.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 24 May 2024 17:05:11 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> Le 19-05-2024, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Maybe because Red Hat is all about the latest, greatest.
>
> What are you speaking of? Red Hat is obsolete by design. Everything
> provided by Red Hat is old.

Let me clarify -- the upstream distros of RHEL. Fedora Rawhide is cutting
edge and frequently broken. The more stable stuff makes it to Fedora,
which has frequent updates. Yesterday's 'sudo dnf upgrade' upgraded 35
packages, removed kernel 6.8.7 and installed kernel 6.8.10. That's a
typical day. I don't nkow if Centos Stream still exists, but eventually
Fedora makes it into RHEL. Since Red Hat supports Fedora I tend to refer
to the whole family as Red Hat.

Back when it was Red Hat Linux the gcc 2.96 fiasco soured me on the brand.
2.96 was a beta branch working its way toward gcc 3.0 but RH released it
anyway.

Personally, I run Debian on my development machine.

Le 24-05-2024, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
> On 24 May 2024 17:05:11 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 19-05-2024, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Maybe because Red Hat is all about the latest, greatest.
>>
>> What are you speaking of? Red Hat is obsolete by design. Everything
>> provided by Red Hat is old.
>
> Let me clarify -- the upstream distros of RHEL. Fedora Rawhide is cutting
> edge and frequently broken.

Ah, OK with that. And Fedora Silverblue is very interesting.

> Since Red Hat supports Fedora I tend to refer to the whole family as Red Hat.

OK, for me, Fedora is based on Red Hat, but it's a very different stuff.
So, without the clarification it wasn't obvious.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On Fri, 24 May 2024 16:13:58 -0400, Joel wrote:

> It's curious what I'd think I'd be getting out of ~$200 for Red Hat, as
> opposed to a free distro like Mint. I don't care about support, as if
> I'm going to call them on the phone or something, what are they
> suggesting I could do with their implementation of the OS, that I can't
> do right now? It seems imaginary, really.

I'm following through on a common argument in the enterprise world. "Use
Linux? But, but, but it isn't supported!" Red Hat realized money was to
be made with a curated, supported version and jumped on it, They were
pulling in over 3 billion before IBM bought them.

I'm not sure but SUSE Linux Enterprise might have been the first to offer
a supported distro.

The irony is I doubt many enterprise users ever call Microsoft support
either. Microsoft created a whole industry with 'Microsoft Certified
Whatever' where people earned the certification at their own (or a
company's expense) so they could support MS products without bothering MS.

I don't know how well the Linux certification scheme fared.

On 24 May 2024 20:56:36 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> Ah, OK with that. And Fedora Silverblue is very interesting.
>
>> Since Red Hat supports Fedora I tend to refer to the whole family as
>> Red Hat.

I haven't tried that yet. I'll let them shake the bigs out.

> OK, for me, Fedora is based on Red Hat, but it's a very different stuff.
> So, without the clarification it wasn't obvious.

Fedora is upstream of RHEL.

Le 24-05-2024, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
> On 24 May 2024 20:56:36 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>
>> Ah, OK with that. And Fedora Silverblue is very interesting.
>>
>>> Since Red Hat supports Fedora I tend to refer to the whole family as
>>> Red Hat.
>
> I haven't tried that yet. I'll let them shake the bigs out.

I'm not saying anyone should move to it. As you say, it's early and they
lack experience and feed back. But there are interesting things in it
nevertheless.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Fri, 24 May 2024 16:13:58 -0400, Joel wrote:
>
>> It's curious what I'd think I'd be getting out of ~$200 for Red Hat, as
>> opposed to a free distro like Mint. I don't care about support, as if
>> I'm going to call them on the phone or something, what are they
>> suggesting I could do with their implementation of the OS, that I can't
>> do right now? It seems imaginary, really.
>
> I'm following through on a common argument in the enterprise world. "Use
> Linux? But, but, but it isn't supported!" Red Hat realized money was to
> be made with a curated, supported version and jumped on it, They were
> pulling in over 3 billion before IBM bought them.
>
> I'm not sure but SUSE Linux Enterprise might have been the first to offer
> a supported distro.
>
> The irony is I doubt many enterprise users ever call Microsoft support
> either. Microsoft created a whole industry with 'Microsoft Certified
> Whatever' where people earned the certification at their own (or a
> company's expense) so they could support MS products without bothering MS.
>
> I don't know how well the Linux certification scheme fared.

I got the LPIC certification years ago. It was a lot of command-line admin
stuff, some of it out-of-date.

--
You are fairminded, just and loving.

On Sat, 25 May 2024 08:42:08 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> I got the LPIC certification years ago. It was a lot of command-line
> admin stuff, some of it out-of-date.

Did it do anything for you professionally? I imagine the expensive
Microsoft wallpaper helped if you worked for large companies but I was
never sure about Linux or other certification programs.

I've always worked for small ( < 200) companies that were casual about
formalities. You could either do the job or you were looking for a new
one.

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sat, 25 May 2024 08:42:08 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> I got the LPIC certification years ago. It was a lot of command-line
>> admin stuff, some of it out-of-date.
>
> Did it do anything for you professionally?

Nothing except giving me some free training and billable time taking the
test. And time doing something that was fun for me.

> I imagine the expensive Microsoft wallpaper helped if you worked for large
> companies but I was never sure about Linux or other certification programs.

The company paid for training, surprisingly.

> I've always worked for small ( < 200) companies that were casual about
> formalities. You could either do the job or you were looking for a new
> one.

Heh, I was basically on the same team for a couple decades, moving through
a couple of buy-outs.

--
Conscience doth make cowards of us all.
-- Shakespeare

On Sun, 26 May 2024 09:03:03 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Heh, I was basically on the same team for a couple decades, moving
> through a couple of buy-outs.

In the division I am in the junior programmer was hired in 1999. We had a
few other hires that didn't last for one reason or the other.

On 24 May 2024 17:07:45 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> Le 20-05-2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit :
>
>> On 19 May 2024 10:54:06 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>
>>> If the purpose is only to look at an image, feh is great. It's really
>>> fast. When I need to use Gimp, I can see how Gimp is very slow to
>>> launch compared with feh.
>>
>> GIMP has some nice analysis tools, though.
>
> To analyse an image is not to just look at it.

You do need to be able to look at it in order to perform a proper
analysis.

On 24 May 2024 17:13:32 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> Le 22-05-2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit :
>
>> On Sun, 19 May 2024 08:14:49 -0000 (UTC), Sebastian wrote:
>>
>>> Red Hat is the main company in the Linux community ...
>>
>> Red Hat is only a small part of the Linux community. Consider that most
>> distros are Debian, not Red Hat, derivatives.
>
> On the Desktop, yes, Debian and its derivatives are the major part of
> the community. In the industry, it's not the same, Red Hat is very
> present.

So how exactly would a business model work, where Red Hat is forcing other
distros to adopt its technologies, for free?

On 24 May 2024 20:57:43 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> I'm following through on a common argument in the enterprise world. "Use
> Linux? But, but, but it isn't supported!" Red Hat realized money was to
> be made with a curated, supported version and jumped on it ...

A big company is probably what other big companies are looking for when
they mean “support”.

But the backbone of the world’s economy is small businesses, not big ones.
Which is where the opportunity arises for smaller open-source support
outfits, like myself.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On 24 May 2024 17:13:32 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 22-05-2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit :
>>
>>> Red Hat is only a small part of the Linux community. Consider that most
>>> distros are Debian, not Red Hat, derivatives.
>>
>> On the Desktop, yes, Debian and its derivatives are the major part of
>> the community. In the industry, it's not the same, Red Hat is very
>> present.
>
>So how exactly would a business model work, where Red Hat is forcing other
>distros to adopt its technologies, for free?

People who want Red Hat's support will buy it. People who just want
the code will go to a derivative distro.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Wed, 29 May 2024 08:42:24 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>On 24 May 2024 17:13:32 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 22-05-2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Red Hat is only a small part of the Linux community. Consider that
>>>> most distros are Debian, not Red Hat, derivatives.
>>>
>>> On the Desktop, yes, Debian and its derivatives are the major part of
>>> the community. In the industry, it's not the same, Red Hat is very
>>> present.
>>
>> So how exactly would a business model work, where Red Hat is forcing
>> other distros to adopt its technologies, for free?
>
> People who want Red Hat's support will buy it. People who just want the
> code will go to a derivative distro.

Of course. So where exactly is this “plot” by Red Hat to “export their
radical ideas to all other distros”?

On 24 May 2024 17:05:11 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> Red Hat is obsolete by design. Everything provided by Red Hat is old.

I think you are confusing RHEL with Fedora.

Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>On 2024-05-30 3:21 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On 24 May 2024 17:05:11 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>
>>> Red Hat is obsolete by design. Everything provided by Red Hat is old.
>>
>> I think you are confusing RHEL with Fedora.
>
>No, Stéphane is correct as always. Fedora comes up with ideas which
>eventually make their way into Red Hat, not the other way around. See,
>in addition to being funny in each one of his posts, he uses his ass to
>remove Snit from his body, not as a source of information.

Stéphane's intended point is correct, yeah, although I wouldn't call
Red Hat "obsolete" or "old", anymore than a lot of distros, by not
being on the cutting edge of essential components, the distros have
the ability to test and perfect their builds.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 5/30/2024 3:21 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 24 May 2024 17:05:11 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>> Red Hat is obsolete by design. Everything provided by Red Hat is old.

I disagree with Stephane: RH isn't old or obsolete.

> I think you are confusing RHEL with Fedora.

You have it backwards.

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/fedora-and-red-hat-enterprise-linux/

On Thu, 30 May 2024 07:00:12 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>On 24 May 2024 17:05:11 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>
>>> Red Hat is obsolete by design. Everything provided by Red Hat is old.
>>
>>I think you are confusing RHEL with Fedora.
>
>
> I actually didn't like how Fedora was testing such new code, too many
> updates requiring rebooting, otherwise a nice distro. But Mint only has
> to reboot for a kernel update.

I'm running the KDE spin and I don't think Plasma 6 was quite ready for
prime time. I should have waited a few months before moving to 40. There
are a lot of kernel updates but you don't have to reboot unless you want
to run the latest.

RedHat plays it close to the vest. 8.x is out of full support tomorrow but
I don't know how much the minor versions of 9 pull from the upstream.