Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 20:29:45 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>>>> I've owned products from both Android manufacturers and Apple and I
>>>> have yet to see Android behave like anything more than a clunky
>>>> version of iOS.
>>>
>>> You didn’t notice that Android did multitasking from the beginning,
>>> instead of trying to add multiple Morse-code-encoded functions to a
>>> single button?
>>
>> I had an early Android device. The multitasking on it was no better than
>> what iOS was offering.
>
>IOS couldn’t even do background tasks. Android could, right from the
>beginning.

Apple is crapware, it's that simple. The iPhone is advanced hardware
with toy software, just like the Apple-centric dimensions of macOS,
sure they run on top of real Unix, great, but you'd never know it, to
use their garbage. I'd rather go back to Win11, than buy a fuckin'
Mac. They can keep that overpriced, right-brain-centric, goofy junk.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

When people say “Unix”, they usually have in mind how a traditional *nix
system is supposed to work, not a licensee of a legal trademark. Because
that’s all Apple’s OS is -- a “Unix” in (trademarked) name, not in
functionality. So forget the “real” -- there’s nothing “real” about it.
Use “legal” if you must, but not “real”.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>> sure they run on top of real Unix ...
>
>When people say “Unix”, they usually have in mind how a traditional *nix
>system is supposed to work, not a licensee of a legal trademark. Because
>that’s all Apple’s OS is -- a “Unix” in (trademarked) name, not in
>functionality. So forget the “real” -- there’s nothing “real” about it.
>Use “legal” if you must, but not “real”.

That's not true, you can do anything Unix with a Mac, it's just not as
straightforward as booting Linux. But their kernel and Darwin
implementation are legit.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-10-22, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-10-22 3:44 a.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-10-21, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> On 2024-10-21 10:48 a.m., DFS wrote:
>>>> On 10/21/2024 10:13 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-10-20 10:50 p.m., vallor wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 12:22:17 -0400, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote in
>>>>>> <vf3anm$f7na$3@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/08VbexhJO4Y?t=23
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The comments on this vid about why people moved to Linux or not are
>>>>>>> always interesting.  Most of them are pro-Linux of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hate to break the news to you, but if you have Windows, part of
>>>>>> Windows is "Linux on the desktop".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know that must eat at you...
>>>>>
>>>>> Absolutely none of that makes any kind of sense.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> He's referring to Windows Subsystem for Linux.
>>>>
>>>> Bloaty thinks MS adding it as a feature bothers me and is a victory for
>>>> Linux.  He forgets Microsoft has had a *nix component available
>>>> continuously for Windows for 25 years.
>>>>
>>>> Rather than bother me, I'm glad MS made it so easy to run a
>>>> high-performing Linux distro alongside Windows.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> $ wsl --list --online
>>>> The following is a list of valid distributions that can be installed.
>>>> Install using 'wsl.exe --install <Distro>'.
>>>>
>>>> NAME                            FRIENDLY NAME
>>>> Ubuntu                          Ubuntu
>>>> Debian                          Debian GNU/Linux
>>>> kali-linux                      Kali Linux Rolling
>>>> Ubuntu-18.04                    Ubuntu 18.04 LTS
>>>> Ubuntu-20.04                    Ubuntu 20.04 LTS
>>>> Ubuntu-22.04                    Ubuntu 22.04 LTS
>>>> Ubuntu-24.04                    Ubuntu 24.04 LTS
>>>> OracleLinux_7_9                 Oracle Linux 7.9
>>>> OracleLinux_8_7                 Oracle Linux 8.7
>>>> OracleLinux_9_1                 Oracle Linux 9.1
>>>> openSUSE-Leap-15.6              openSUSE Leap 15.6
>>>> SUSE-Linux-Enterprise-15-SP5    SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 SP5
>>>> SUSE-Linux-Enterprise-15-SP6    SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 SP6
>>>> openSUSE-Tumbleweed             openSUSE Tumbleweed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And you can create and distribute your own WSL distros.
>>>
>>> The Linux desktop environment won't have any kind of a victory until
>>> companies willingly sell it in stores and actually make a profit. Until
>>> then, it'll be niche. It works well, it's pretty, but it remains niche.
>>
>> A gigantic "niche."
>
> No, a small niche. It doesn't rule the tablet world, iOS does. It
> doesn't rule the phone world, Android does (simply because they offer
> both cheap and expensive handsets). They don't rule the desktop, Windows
> does.

No, a gigantic niche. Around 5% of the world's desktops (including laptops)
which is not a small number. When you include Chromebooks (which run on
Linux), that's about 7%. Android phones (running on the Linux kernel) 71%.
Android tablets (running on the Linux kernel) 44%. About 80% or 90% of web
servers. And almost all embedded devices.

So Linux is huge. And 5-7% of the desktop market is also "huge." And it's
definitely not dwindling.

> It can be argued that the mere fact that Android uses the Linux kernel
> means that Linux won. However, people here have trouble deciding whether
> Android is Linux or not. Since people use the environment atop Linux
> exclusively, it shouldn't be factored in as a Linux machine.

I don't care what you call Android itself, but it's definitely not the
Windows kernel it's running on. The Windows market is desktops which, when
compared to the whole OS market, is a niche market.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-10-22, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-10-22 5:20 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 09:14:08 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> It doesn't rule the tablet world, iOS does.
>>
>> Only if you draw a hard and fast distinction between “phone” and “tablet”.
>> Remember, Android invented the concept of the “phablet”, which was larger
>> than a typical phone, but smaller than a typical tablet. Because only
>> Android has a UI engine that intelligently adapts to different screen
>> sizes and resolutions.
>
> I've owned products from both Android manufacturers and Apple and I have
> yet to see Android behave like anything more than a clunky version of
> iOS. Additionally, every tablet is different and every phone is
> different. The result is that if you learned how to use the system on
> hardware manufactured by one company, chances are the experience will be
> entirely different on hardware manufactured by the other. Sure, you can
> get used to it rather quickly, but it's not as consistent as Apple's is.
> iOS also makes it _simple_ to use the advanced features of your phone.
> Most Android users don't even know that they have features because the
> manufacturers and the OS do a terrible job of informing you about them
> or teaching you how to use them. That's why an Apple user today will
> still be one in twenty years and Android users usually choose that
> system merely because "it's not Apple."

But it's a pain in the butt to turn the advanced "features" off in an
iPhone. (It's not that easy in a Android phone either.) I use both an iPhone
SE (1st edition) and a Pixel 3a. I like the iPhone (for carrying) because
it's smaller, but making sure the damned thing doesn't "call home" or use
online storage, or join with other Apple devices is a pain in the butt. What
I particularly don't like about it (in its default mode) is that it wants to
automatically connect with the Mac Mini (or MacBook Air) for phone calls. I
don't want that. I just want the thing to be a phone, that's it. (I still
haven't gotten rid of the MacBook Air, even though I never use it.)

That said, the Pixel is no picnic on these issues either. Maybe a little
less control freaky, but still it's a job to get all the crap turned off I
don't want turned on. Microsoft, Apple and Google sure want to insinuate
themselves into every aspect of your life. If I could still use my
Blackberry that's where I would be.

As far as consistency between Android devices... it's not that much
different than different versions of Apple devices. My wife's iPhone works
differently than my old iPhone. The biggest issue for me, concerning Android
devices, is the add-on crap several makers "provide." Crap you can't get rid
of unless you root your device.

Speaking of rooting... As far as I know, Apple doesn't allow alternate
sources for their apps. (Maybe that's changed?) Android still does allow
these alternate sources. A definite win for Android there.

I run Termux on my Pixel 3a. With that (and a BlueTooth keyboard) I can
write screenplays in eMacs using Fountain Mode. So there is definitely
enough "Linux" there to run Linux terminal applications.

>>> They don't rule the desktop, Windows does.
>>
>> And Windows does not rule the workstation, Linux does.
>
> Provide evidence for this claim.
>
>>> It can be argued that the mere fact that Android uses the Linux kernel
>>> means that Linux won. However, people here have trouble deciding
>>> whether Android is Linux or not.
>>
>> It’s a true Linux kernel, there’s no disputing that. It’s not a
>> conventional Linux distro, that too is true.
>>
>> Maybe that just means it’s not a traditional “*nix” system, like, for
>> example, the BSDs -- something “desktop”-oriented that is almost, but not
>> quite, entirely unlike Microsoft Windows. So the logical conclusion is
>> that “Linux” is more than just “*nix”.
>
> So you've decided that Android is indeed Linux?

Android uses the Linux kernel. That definitely means it's not Windows.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-10-23 12:19 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 20:29:45 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> On 2024-10-22 8:04 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 19:47:36 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've owned products from both Android manufacturers and Apple and I
>>>> have yet to see Android behave like anything more than a clunky
>>>> version of iOS.
>>>
>>> You didn’t notice that Android did multitasking from the beginning,
>>> instead of trying to add multiple Morse-code-encoded functions to a
>>> single button?
>>
>> I had an early Android device. The multitasking on it was no better than
>> what iOS was offering.
>
> IOS couldn’t even do background tasks. Android could, right from the
> beginning.

And yet no one cared because iOS provided an elegant experience whereas
Android was clunky. Not one person managed to do any less with their
iPhone despite the fact that it could do multitasking from the very
beginning. Your argument is as pointless as stating that Linux has a
plethora of text editors: nobody who isn't a fat, bald, bearded nerd
gives a shit.

>>> Workstation-type functionality, like advanced network and filesystem
>>> stacks, only available as standard on Linux, not Windows.
>>
>> So you have no evidence but feel comfortable making baseless claims.
>
> Read all about it: <https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/networking/iproute2>,
> <https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/198590/what-is-a-bind-mount>.

Your statement was that Linux workstations ruled the industry. I asked
for evidence that the number of Linux workstations is superior to that
of Windows or Mac so you provided a strawman. I still want evidence or
you're simply full of shit.

--
CrudeSausage
Paleoconservative, Catholic, Christ is king.

On 2024-10-23 3:12 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-10-22, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2024-10-22 3:44 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>> On 2024-10-21, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-10-21 10:48 a.m., DFS wrote:
>>>>> On 10/21/2024 10:13 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-10-20 10:50 p.m., vallor wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 12:22:17 -0400, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote in
>>>>>>> <vf3anm$f7na$3@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/08VbexhJO4Y?t=23
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The comments on this vid about why people moved to Linux or not are
>>>>>>>> always interesting.  Most of them are pro-Linux of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hate to break the news to you, but if you have Windows, part of
>>>>>>> Windows is "Linux on the desktop".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know that must eat at you...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Absolutely none of that makes any kind of sense.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> He's referring to Windows Subsystem for Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bloaty thinks MS adding it as a feature bothers me and is a victory for
>>>>> Linux.  He forgets Microsoft has had a *nix component available
>>>>> continuously for Windows for 25 years.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rather than bother me, I'm glad MS made it so easy to run a
>>>>> high-performing Linux distro alongside Windows.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> $ wsl --list --online
>>>>> The following is a list of valid distributions that can be installed.
>>>>> Install using 'wsl.exe --install <Distro>'.
>>>>>
>>>>> NAME                            FRIENDLY NAME
>>>>> Ubuntu                          Ubuntu
>>>>> Debian                          Debian GNU/Linux
>>>>> kali-linux                      Kali Linux Rolling
>>>>> Ubuntu-18.04                    Ubuntu 18.04 LTS
>>>>> Ubuntu-20.04                    Ubuntu 20.04 LTS
>>>>> Ubuntu-22.04                    Ubuntu 22.04 LTS
>>>>> Ubuntu-24.04                    Ubuntu 24.04 LTS
>>>>> OracleLinux_7_9                 Oracle Linux 7.9
>>>>> OracleLinux_8_7                 Oracle Linux 8.7
>>>>> OracleLinux_9_1                 Oracle Linux 9.1
>>>>> openSUSE-Leap-15.6              openSUSE Leap 15.6
>>>>> SUSE-Linux-Enterprise-15-SP5    SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 SP5
>>>>> SUSE-Linux-Enterprise-15-SP6    SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 SP6
>>>>> openSUSE-Tumbleweed             openSUSE Tumbleweed
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And you can create and distribute your own WSL distros.
>>>>
>>>> The Linux desktop environment won't have any kind of a victory until
>>>> companies willingly sell it in stores and actually make a profit. Until
>>>> then, it'll be niche. It works well, it's pretty, but it remains niche.
>>>
>>> A gigantic "niche."
>>
>> No, a small niche. It doesn't rule the tablet world, iOS does. It
>> doesn't rule the phone world, Android does (simply because they offer
>> both cheap and expensive handsets). They don't rule the desktop, Windows
>> does.
>
> No, a gigantic niche. Around 5% of the world's desktops (including laptops)
> which is not a small number. When you include Chromebooks (which run on
> Linux), that's about 7%. Android phones (running on the Linux kernel) 71%.
> Android tablets (running on the Linux kernel) 44%. About 80% or 90% of web
> servers. And almost all embedded devices.
>
> So Linux is huge. And 5-7% of the desktop market is also "huge." And it's
> definitely not dwindling.

It fluctuates, but all of the systems you mentioned run Linux at the
core but aren't what the user sees. Nearly all of them have a
proprietary system running atop them. This is where I ask: are ChromeOS
and Android Linux or are they not. People need to decide once and for all.

>> It can be argued that the mere fact that Android uses the Linux kernel
>> means that Linux won. However, people here have trouble deciding whether
>> Android is Linux or not. Since people use the environment atop Linux
>> exclusively, it shouldn't be factored in as a Linux machine.
>
> I don't care what you call Android itself, but it's definitely not the
> Windows kernel it's running on. The Windows market is desktops which, when
> compared to the whole OS market, is a niche market.

It's what people looking to produce something use. Nobody serious
produces from ChromeOS or Android.

--
CrudeSausage
Paleoconservative, Catholic, Christ is king.

On 2024-10-23 3:31 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-10-22, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2024-10-22 5:20 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 09:14:08 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> It doesn't rule the tablet world, iOS does.
>>>
>>> Only if you draw a hard and fast distinction between “phone” and “tablet”.
>>> Remember, Android invented the concept of the “phablet”, which was larger
>>> than a typical phone, but smaller than a typical tablet. Because only
>>> Android has a UI engine that intelligently adapts to different screen
>>> sizes and resolutions.
>>
>> I've owned products from both Android manufacturers and Apple and I have
>> yet to see Android behave like anything more than a clunky version of
>> iOS. Additionally, every tablet is different and every phone is
>> different. The result is that if you learned how to use the system on
>> hardware manufactured by one company, chances are the experience will be
>> entirely different on hardware manufactured by the other. Sure, you can
>> get used to it rather quickly, but it's not as consistent as Apple's is.
>> iOS also makes it _simple_ to use the advanced features of your phone.
>> Most Android users don't even know that they have features because the
>> manufacturers and the OS do a terrible job of informing you about them
>> or teaching you how to use them. That's why an Apple user today will
>> still be one in twenty years and Android users usually choose that
>> system merely because "it's not Apple."
>
> But it's a pain in the butt to turn the advanced "features" off in an
> iPhone. (It's not that easy in a Android phone either.) I use both an iPhone
> SE (1st edition) and a Pixel 3a. I like the iPhone (for carrying) because
> it's smaller, but making sure the damned thing doesn't "call home" or use
> online storage, or join with other Apple devices is a pain in the butt. What
> I particularly don't like about it (in its default mode) is that it wants to
> automatically connect with the Mac Mini (or MacBook Air) for phone calls. I
> don't want that. I just want the thing to be a phone, that's it. (I still
> haven't gotten rid of the MacBook Air, even though I never use it.)
>
> That said, the Pixel is no picnic on these issues either. Maybe a little
> less control freaky, but still it's a job to get all the crap turned off I
> don't want turned on. Microsoft, Apple and Google sure want to insinuate
> themselves into every aspect of your life. If I could still use my
> Blackberry that's where I would be.
>
> As far as consistency between Android devices... it's not that much
> different than different versions of Apple devices. My wife's iPhone works
> differently than my old iPhone. The biggest issue for me, concerning Android
> devices, is the add-on crap several makers "provide." Crap you can't get rid
> of unless you root your device.
>
> Speaking of rooting... As far as I know, Apple doesn't allow alternate
> sources for their apps. (Maybe that's changed?) Android still does allow
> these alternate sources. A definite win for Android there.
>
> I run Termux on my Pixel 3a. With that (and a BlueTooth keyboard) I can
> write screenplays in eMacs using Fountain Mode. So there is definitely
> enough "Linux" there to run Linux terminal applications.

There would be no benefit for Apple to allow rooting, so they don't
allow it. That is one advantage for android, for sure.

>>>> They don't rule the desktop, Windows does.
>>>
>>> And Windows does not rule the workstation, Linux does.
>>
>> Provide evidence for this claim.
>>
>>>> It can be argued that the mere fact that Android uses the Linux kernel
>>>> means that Linux won. However, people here have trouble deciding
>>>> whether Android is Linux or not.
>>>
>>> It’s a true Linux kernel, there’s no disputing that. It’s not a
>>> conventional Linux distro, that too is true.
>>>
>>> Maybe that just means it’s not a traditional “*nix” system, like, for
>>> example, the BSDs -- something “desktop”-oriented that is almost, but not
>>> quite, entirely unlike Microsoft Windows. So the logical conclusion is
>>> that “Linux” is more than just “*nix”.
>>
>> So you've decided that Android is indeed Linux?
>
> Android uses the Linux kernel. That definitely means it's not Windows.

But does it _use_ Linux or IS IT Linux?

--
CrudeSausage
Paleoconservative, Catholic, Christ is king.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 07:31:44 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> As far as consistency between Android devices... it's not that much
> different than different versions of Apple devices. My wife's iPhone
> works differently than my old iPhone. The biggest issue for me,
> concerning Android devices, is the add-on crap several makers "provide."
> Crap you can't get rid of unless you root your device.

My current experience is with Fire OS, an Android derivative, on tablets
and Android One on the phone. Android One attempts to be Android without
the customization some vendors throw in.

Switching between the two is not a problem. The biggest difference is the
Fire devices don't have the Google app store but I haven't found that to
be a limitation.

My ex has an iPhone and seems to have her fair share of problems with it
and has had to get help to sort them out. She's non-technical and just
wants something that works.

She has a hitech insulin monitoring system which only has apps for Android
so she needs a separate interface. I wouldn't be surprised if the
manufacturer found the Apple hoops to be too much of a hassle for a
limited audience.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 12:59:26 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> On 2024-10-23 3:31 a.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-10-22, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> On 2024-10-22 5:20 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 09:14:08 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't rule the tablet world, iOS does.
>>>>
>>>> Only if you draw a hard and fast distinction between “phone” and
>>>> “tablet”.
>>>> Remember, Android invented the concept of the “phablet”, which was
>>>> larger than a typical phone, but smaller than a typical tablet.
>>>> Because only Android has a UI engine that intelligently adapts to
>>>> different screen sizes and resolutions.
>>>
>>> I've owned products from both Android manufacturers and Apple and I
>>> have yet to see Android behave like anything more than a clunky
>>> version of iOS. Additionally, every tablet is different and every
>>> phone is different. The result is that if you learned how to use the
>>> system on hardware manufactured by one company, chances are the
>>> experience will be entirely different on hardware manufactured by the
>>> other. Sure, you can get used to it rather quickly, but it's not as
>>> consistent as Apple's is.
>>> iOS also makes it _simple_ to use the advanced features of your phone.
>>> Most Android users don't even know that they have features because the
>>> manufacturers and the OS do a terrible job of informing you about them
>>> or teaching you how to use them. That's why an Apple user today will
>>> still be one in twenty years and Android users usually choose that
>>> system merely because "it's not Apple."
>>
>> But it's a pain in the butt to turn the advanced "features" off in an
>> iPhone. (It's not that easy in a Android phone either.) I use both an
>> iPhone SE (1st edition) and a Pixel 3a. I like the iPhone (for
>> carrying) because it's smaller, but making sure the damned thing
>> doesn't "call home" or use online storage, or join with other Apple
>> devices is a pain in the butt. What I particularly don't like about it
>> (in its default mode) is that it wants to automatically connect with
>> the Mac Mini (or MacBook Air) for phone calls. I don't want that. I
>> just want the thing to be a phone, that's it. (I still haven't gotten
>> rid of the MacBook Air, even though I never use it.)
>>
>> That said, the Pixel is no picnic on these issues either. Maybe a
>> little less control freaky, but still it's a job to get all the crap
>> turned off I don't want turned on. Microsoft, Apple and Google sure
>> want to insinuate themselves into every aspect of your life. If I could
>> still use my Blackberry that's where I would be.
>>
>> As far as consistency between Android devices... it's not that much
>> different than different versions of Apple devices. My wife's iPhone
>> works differently than my old iPhone. The biggest issue for me,
>> concerning Android devices, is the add-on crap several makers
>> "provide." Crap you can't get rid of unless you root your device.
>>
>> Speaking of rooting... As far as I know, Apple doesn't allow alternate
>> sources for their apps. (Maybe that's changed?) Android still does
>> allow these alternate sources. A definite win for Android there.
>>
>> I run Termux on my Pixel 3a. With that (and a BlueTooth keyboard) I can
>> write screenplays in eMacs using Fountain Mode. So there is definitely
>> enough "Linux" there to run Linux terminal applications.
>
> There would be no benefit for Apple to allow rooting, so they don't
> allow it. That is one advantage for android, for sure.
>
>>>>> They don't rule the desktop, Windows does.
>>>>
>>>> And Windows does not rule the workstation, Linux does.
>>>
>>> Provide evidence for this claim.
>>>
>>>>> It can be argued that the mere fact that Android uses the Linux
>>>>> kernel means that Linux won. However, people here have trouble
>>>>> deciding whether Android is Linux or not.
>>>>
>>>> It’s a true Linux kernel, there’s no disputing that. It’s not a
>>>> conventional Linux distro, that too is true.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe that just means it’s not a traditional “*nix” system, like, for
>>>> example, the BSDs -- something “desktop”-oriented that is almost, but
>>>> not quite, entirely unlike Microsoft Windows. So the logical
>>>> conclusion is that “Linux” is more than just “*nix”.
>>>
>>> So you've decided that Android is indeed Linux?
>>
>> Android uses the Linux kernel. That definitely means it's not Windows.
>
> But does it _use_ Linux or IS IT Linux?

<quibble>
As Stallman will remind you Linux IS the kernel not the universe of
applications that happen to run on that kernel. If his skills extended to
developing operating systems we would be talking about Hurd rather than
Linux.
</quibble>

On 2024-10-23 2:41 p.m., rbowman wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 12:59:26 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> On 2024-10-23 3:31 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>> On 2024-10-22, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-10-22 5:20 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 09:14:08 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't rule the tablet world, iOS does.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only if you draw a hard and fast distinction between “phone” and
>>>>> “tablet”.
>>>>> Remember, Android invented the concept of the “phablet”, which was
>>>>> larger than a typical phone, but smaller than a typical tablet.
>>>>> Because only Android has a UI engine that intelligently adapts to
>>>>> different screen sizes and resolutions.
>>>>
>>>> I've owned products from both Android manufacturers and Apple and I
>>>> have yet to see Android behave like anything more than a clunky
>>>> version of iOS. Additionally, every tablet is different and every
>>>> phone is different. The result is that if you learned how to use the
>>>> system on hardware manufactured by one company, chances are the
>>>> experience will be entirely different on hardware manufactured by the
>>>> other. Sure, you can get used to it rather quickly, but it's not as
>>>> consistent as Apple's is.
>>>> iOS also makes it _simple_ to use the advanced features of your phone.
>>>> Most Android users don't even know that they have features because the
>>>> manufacturers and the OS do a terrible job of informing you about them
>>>> or teaching you how to use them. That's why an Apple user today will
>>>> still be one in twenty years and Android users usually choose that
>>>> system merely because "it's not Apple."
>>>
>>> But it's a pain in the butt to turn the advanced "features" off in an
>>> iPhone. (It's not that easy in a Android phone either.) I use both an
>>> iPhone SE (1st edition) and a Pixel 3a. I like the iPhone (for
>>> carrying) because it's smaller, but making sure the damned thing
>>> doesn't "call home" or use online storage, or join with other Apple
>>> devices is a pain in the butt. What I particularly don't like about it
>>> (in its default mode) is that it wants to automatically connect with
>>> the Mac Mini (or MacBook Air) for phone calls. I don't want that. I
>>> just want the thing to be a phone, that's it. (I still haven't gotten
>>> rid of the MacBook Air, even though I never use it.)
>>>
>>> That said, the Pixel is no picnic on these issues either. Maybe a
>>> little less control freaky, but still it's a job to get all the crap
>>> turned off I don't want turned on. Microsoft, Apple and Google sure
>>> want to insinuate themselves into every aspect of your life. If I could
>>> still use my Blackberry that's where I would be.
>>>
>>> As far as consistency between Android devices... it's not that much
>>> different than different versions of Apple devices. My wife's iPhone
>>> works differently than my old iPhone. The biggest issue for me,
>>> concerning Android devices, is the add-on crap several makers
>>> "provide." Crap you can't get rid of unless you root your device.
>>>
>>> Speaking of rooting... As far as I know, Apple doesn't allow alternate
>>> sources for their apps. (Maybe that's changed?) Android still does
>>> allow these alternate sources. A definite win for Android there.
>>>
>>> I run Termux on my Pixel 3a. With that (and a BlueTooth keyboard) I can
>>> write screenplays in eMacs using Fountain Mode. So there is definitely
>>> enough "Linux" there to run Linux terminal applications.
>>
>> There would be no benefit for Apple to allow rooting, so they don't
>> allow it. That is one advantage for android, for sure.
>>
>>>>>> They don't rule the desktop, Windows does.
>>>>>
>>>>> And Windows does not rule the workstation, Linux does.
>>>>
>>>> Provide evidence for this claim.
>>>>
>>>>>> It can be argued that the mere fact that Android uses the Linux
>>>>>> kernel means that Linux won. However, people here have trouble
>>>>>> deciding whether Android is Linux or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s a true Linux kernel, there’s no disputing that. It’s not a
>>>>> conventional Linux distro, that too is true.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe that just means it’s not a traditional “*nix” system, like, for
>>>>> example, the BSDs -- something “desktop”-oriented that is almost, but
>>>>> not quite, entirely unlike Microsoft Windows. So the logical
>>>>> conclusion is that “Linux” is more than just “*nix”.
>>>>
>>>> So you've decided that Android is indeed Linux?
>>>
>>> Android uses the Linux kernel. That definitely means it's not Windows.
>>
>> But does it _use_ Linux or IS IT Linux?
>
> <quibble>
> As Stallman will remind you Linux IS the kernel not the universe of
> applications that happen to run on that kernel. If his skills extended to
> developing operating systems we would be talking about Hurd rather than
> Linux.
> </quibble>

Therefore Android and ChromeOS's success does not translate to a success
for Linux.

--
CrudeSausage
Paleoconservative, Catholic, Christ is king.

On 10/22/2024 8:04 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 19:47:36 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> I've owned products from both Android manufacturers and Apple and I have
>> yet to see Android behave like anything more than a clunky version of
>> iOS.
>
> You didn’t notice that Android did multitasking from the beginning,
> instead of trying to add multiple Morse-code-encoded functions to a single
> button?
>
>>> And Windows does not rule the workstation, Linux does.
>>
>> Provide evidence for this claim.
>
> Workstation-type functionality, like advanced network and filesystem
> stacks, only available as standard on Linux, not Windows.

'only available as standard'.... very Feebish.

This is the new Larry Duh. When he's not flat-out lying, he's
Snittishly twisting and trying to redefine commonly accepted terms and
definitions. tsk tsk.

Workstation maker Lenovo explains what a workstation is:

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/glossary/workstation-vs-desktop-business/

9 Best desktop workstation computers

https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-desktop-workstations

Guess how many come with Linux? <answer goes here>
Guess how many come with Win11? <answer goes here>

Who in their right mind would put GuhNoo hobbyware on an expensive
desktop workstation computer? It's insane.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 02:29:19 -0400, Joel wrote:

> ... you can do anything Unix with a Mac ...

You can do anything “Unix (trademark)” with a Mac, doesn’t mean you
can do everything people expect to do with a *nix system.

For example, just did a scan of the Blender source tree:

ldo@theon:blender> n=0; for i in $(find . -name CMakeLists.txt -exec grep -c 'if(UNIX AND NOT APPLE)' {} ';'); do n=$((n + i)); done; echo $n
26

On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 10:09:49 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> And yet no one cared because iOS provided an elegant experience whereas
> Android was clunky.

Or rather, people believed Apple’s claims that theirs was the better way.

Remember when the first Ipad came out, and Android was doing tablets with
different screen sizes? And Steve Jobs famously ridiculed the concept of
an “Ipad Mini” on the grounds you would have to file down the tips of your
fingers to work on the smaller screen?

Android used intelligent scaling (e.g. resizing input fields, but not the
size of text prompts) to cope with different screen sizes.

Then after Jobs died, Apple did indeed bring out an “Ipad Mini” ... with
the entire UI dumb-scaled down to the smaller screen.

Did they include any sandpaper for their users to use on their fingers as
well?

Steve Jobs must have been spinning in his grave ...

> I asked for evidence that the number of Linux workstations is superior
> to that of Windows or Mac

There are no Windows or Mac workstations. They simply lack the workstation
functionality.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:57:15 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Workstation maker Lenovo explains what a workstation is:
>
> https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/glossary/workstation-vs-desktop-business/

“A workstation is a powerful computer ...”

What makes it powerful? Not running the same old Windows “desktop” OS.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 15:12:08 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> On 2024-10-23 2:41 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>
>> <quibble>
>> As Stallman will remind you Linux IS the kernel not the universe of
>> applications that happen to run on that kernel. If his skills extended
>> to developing operating systems we would be talking about Hurd rather
>> than Linux.
>> </quibble>
>
> Therefore Android and ChromeOS's success does not translate to a success
> for Linux.

Why not? Linux is Linux.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 12:57:14 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> ... all of the systems you mentioned run Linux at the
> core but aren't what the user sees.

What does the “typical” user see? The GUI. But on Linux and *nix systems
generally, the GUI is not part of the OS -- it’s just another modular,
replaceable layer on top.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 12:57:14 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> ... all of the systems you mentioned run Linux at the
>> core but aren't what the user sees.
>
> What does the “typical” user see? The GUI. But on Linux and *nix systems
> generally, the GUI is not part of the OS -- it’s just another modular,
> replaceable layer on top.

Dozens (perhaps) of window-managers/desktops for Linux desktops, Chrome OS,
various flavors of GUIs for (such as Samsung's One UI) for Android phones and
tablets, the glorioski Google TV interface, Roku TV interface, Web TV, .....

Lookie here!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_mobile_devices

This is the success of the Linux kernel. People use "Linux" as shorthand for
Linux-based computers, rather than the vast ecosystem of Linux-kernel-based
devices.

--
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors and miss.
-- Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love"

On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 06:48:24 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:57:15 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> Workstation maker Lenovo explains what a workstation is:
>>
>> https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/glossary/workstation-vs-desktop-business/
>
> “A workstation is a powerful computer ...”
>
> What makes it powerful? Not running the same old Windows “desktop” OS.

In my world 'workstation' has a different meaning.

https://www.watsonconsoles.com/blog/the-cornerstone-of-effective-psap-
workplace-design

On 2024-10-24 2:53 p.m., rbowman wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 06:48:24 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:57:15 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> Workstation maker Lenovo explains what a workstation is:
>>>
>>> https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/glossary/workstation-vs-desktop-business/
>>
>> “A workstation is a powerful computer ...”
>>
>> What makes it powerful? Not running the same old Windows “desktop” OS.
>
> In my world 'workstation' has a different meaning.
>
> https://www.watsonconsoles.com/blog/the-cornerstone-of-effective-psap-
> workplace-design

Lawrence will change the definition of workstation to whatever suits his
lie the best.

--
CrudeSausage
Paleoconservative, Catholic, Christ is king.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 15:57:47 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> Lawrence will change the definition of workstation to whatever suits his
> lie the best.

I have always consistently said: “workstation” is “desktop-plus”: it means
a single platform that can seamlessly offer both “desktop” and “server”-
type functionality in a single package, like the Unix workstations of old.

On 10/24/2024 2:53 PM, rbowman wrote:

> In my world 'workstation' has a different meaning.
> > https://www.watsonconsoles.com/blog/the-cornerstone-of-effective-psap-
> workplace-design

Your workstation has 4 dedicated Windows systems? Nice.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:55:07 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Your workstation has 4 dedicated Windows systems? Nice.

If you prove you are good at your job, they promote you by taking away 3
of them and leaving you with just 1.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:55:07 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 10/24/2024 2:53 PM, rbowman wrote:
>
>
> > In my world 'workstation' has a different meaning.
> > > https://www.watsonconsoles.com/blog/the-cornerstone-of-effective-
psap-
>> workplace-design
>
>
> Your workstation has 4 dedicated Windows systems? Nice.

Usually one computer, but they do love their monitors.

On 10/24/2024 6:37 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:55:07 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> Your workstation has 4 dedicated Windows systems? Nice.
>
> If you prove you are good at your job, they promote you by taking away 3
> of them and leaving you with just 1.

ha!

I made a similar joke here in the past: Winner gets a free Linux
distro. Losers get multiple distros.