A very noisy person crawled out of my killfile to post his
"Linux origin story", which can be dated with the following
factoid:

"The first release of Mandrake was based on Red Hat
Linux (version 5.1) and K Desktop Environment 1 in July 1998."

Six years earlier, I had a student-access Linux host running
at the community college where I worked (student worker) and
studied. The system, "Nermal", was developed over 1992 as part
of my "Special Studies in Computer Science" course
which I applied for, and was allowed to take. Our campus was one
of three community colleges in California that had just attached to the
Internet, so this was a way for students to have email and a shell
host -- a big deal in 1992.

Indeed, I found and old Xenix system that had an 8-port serial
card, which would run with Linux's serial drivers with only
slight driver modification. With a small rack of 8 - 2400bps
modems, students could dial in.

Not too much later, I was weary of being a "starving student",
and went to work at the campus full-time in Computing Services.

As the student-access system, "Nermal", got more an more popular, a black
market in student id's cropped up. (Student id's were part of the signup
process.) A good friend reasoned that if non-students were willing to pay
for black market id's, they would probably prefer to pay for a legitimate
service.

He and I did some cost accounting and determined what we would
need to charge, and so forth, for us to get our own leased-line
for Internet connectivity. This included a subscription through
PageSAT for Usenet delivered via satellite. We formed a
partnership, and opened our doors in 1994. Part of our
initial development was selecting the OS for our system...we
tried a few, and ended up back with Linux, which has
scaled well for our needs.

We're still in business, God willing and the creeks don't rise.

Our flagship product now is 10Gbit fiber-to-the-home.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-fastest-isps-of-2022

I am privileged to be associated with this amazing group of people,
now numbering over 750 (last time I did a count, it's probably much
more than that now). And on this 30th anniversary of our business,
I made sure to let Dad -- a retired telecom tech from the government
sector -- know that his wisdom is one reason for our success: He
taught me (us) that if something goes wrong, we tell people straight-up
what happened, and what we're doing to prevent it in the future.

We used to keep our status blog (our "MOTD", Message of the Day)
front-and-center on our home page -- and sometimes, it's
been really, really hard to write those MOTD entries. I've
had my fair share of screwups, as well as others.
(I've almost decided to write a book, working title:
_My Life with Linux Screwups_. There's been some doozies...)

Anyway, that's enough of my rambling. What is the arc of
*your* history with Linux?

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.11.0-rc2 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G

On 2024-08-14, vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
[*snip*]
> Anyway, that's enough of my rambling. What is the arc of
> *your* history with Linux?
>

Far less exciting. When I was in primary school, I did use from time to
time the Apple II's, but they were to me mysterious, intimidating and
expensive machines that if I did the wrong thing, I'd break it and get
into trouble. I remember once in Grade 6 a friend and I were in the
small computer room and we dared each other to press the Apple Key while
we were using Logo. Nothing happened. Anyway, in Year 7 at the end of
the year my maths teacher took the class to the computer room, where
they had Apple IIs, or some clone, and taught us to program in BASIC.
That was a revelation, that you could actually start this thing without
a disk, *and tell it what to do*. Something about knowing I could
control it, actually make it print what I wanted to print on the screen
appealed. It was one of those moments which changes you, as I went from
being intimated by these machines and not that intersted, to being
fascinated that I could make this complex machine do what I instruct, at
a fundamental level. It was like I learned how to do magic. Shortly
after, I went through a few microcomputers, including the Commodore 64
for a couple of years, and then to DOS and to Windows 95/98. I liked
tinkering, and controlling at a low level, and I found the
microcomputers of the 80s quite fascinating, even though I mostly missed
it, not getting my first computer until 1991. So many different
systems, each with their own approach.

I knew almost nothing of Linux, except that it was good on the Internet,
and I have a vague recollection of Doom being developed on it? I had
seen the term before, but thats about it. On a Friday evening in
September 2000 I went to the nearby shopping centre while my parents
where grocery shopping and saw in the newsagency the first edition of UK
Linux Format, which had Definite Linux 7.0 as the coverdisk. I had been
kind of wanting a new system to play with, something interesting to use,
and by that time it looked like Windows was heading more towards being a
"consumer" OS which hid and took away low level control and information.
That and its general instability, failure to shut down and need to
reinstall every few months made me dissatisfied with it. I bought the
magazine, took it home, and eventually installed it. It wasn't until I
read through some of the articles that I learned about the Free Software
movement, about what Linux really way, and about the people behind it.
In fact, it wasn't until then I realised that it was free! I thought I
had some cheap knockoff, perhaps a trial version. I was impressed by
the fact you could use a different GUI (DE/WM), AfterStep was quite
novel and unlike anything I've seen before. I was impressed by its
overall stability and that it kept running under heavy load. Its
command line was powerful, and although it wasn't quite what I was
looking for, it seemed to cater to someone who wanted control. There
were some things I didn't like, but overall it seemed to represent the
spirit of the microcomputer a bit more, a system which invited tinkering
and experimentation and was open.

It wasn't until some months later, when I built a new computer, and had
more issues with Windows, that I decided to use it more than just to
explore alternative systems, but to maybe use it as my main "windows"
OS, i.e., use that instead of Windows 98 for general tasks except
gaming. Over time I transitioned more and more of my workflow over to
Linux, finding equivalent software so I don't have to boot back into
Windows to do something like MSN messenger.

I was actually thinking about this just before on my walk, but its not
Linux so much that I like, but just a system which acts more like a
toolbox, which gives you control. I'd probably be just as happy with
Free BSD, or any system, even a proprietary one which has that spirit of
exploration and tinkering, as long as I can do my "work" in it as well.
Once I got used to the Linux way, I couldn't go back, as Windows was
just a bit too restrictive.

On 14 Aug 2024 07:42:18 GMT, vallor wrote:

>
> Anyway, that's enough of my rambling. What is the arc of
> *your* history with Linux?
>

This mutherfucker forked my OP and started a new thread, taking all
the fucking credit!

Fucking deadbeat thief!

But what can one expect from a network administrator? On the computing
totem pole NAs are at the very bottom. They are stupid fucks all.

Anyway, after I first discovered GNU/Linux via Mandrake I had absolutely
no background in Unix. Ridiculous Microslop was my only desktop
computing experience.

But I learned quickly and I became amazed at the wondrous applications
like LaTeX, PostScript, bash, grep, sed, etc., etc., etc. Microslop had none
of this fantastic stuff. Microslop was garbage incarnate.

Indeed, Microslop was, and still is, garbage incarnate.

GNU/Linux opened my eyes to REAL COMPUTING and I have not looked
back since.

Hail Linux!

Hail GNU and the FSF!

Hail Stallman!

And fuck Microslop and all of its idiot advocates!

On 14 Aug 2024 07:42:18 GMT, vallor wrote:

> He and I did some cost accounting and determined what we would need to
> charge, and so forth, for us to get our own leased-line for Internet
> connectivity. This included a subscription through PageSAT for Usenet
> delivered via satellite. We formed a partnership, and opened our doors
> in 1994. Part of our initial development was selecting the OS for our
> system...we tried a few, and ended up back with Linux, which has scaled
> well for our needs.

My first real ISP was in that era. I don't know if its history was similar
but it was two guys with a server in the back room of a golf ship. You
paid your money, got a user shell account and a floppy with TIA, Netscape,
and the Trumpet stack since Windows didn't do networks.

L Thorpe wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 14 Aug 2024 07:42:18 GMT, vallor wrote:
>
>> Anyway, that's enough of my rambling. What is the arc of
>> *your* history with Linux?
>
> This mutherfucker forked my OP and started a new thread, taking all
> the fucking credit!
>
> Fucking deadbeat thief!

Boo hoo hoo.

--
Q: How do you play religious roulette?
A: You stand around in a circle and blaspheme and see who gets
struck by lightning first.

On 8/14/2024 11:36 AM, Fantasy Feeb wrote:

> GNU/Linux opened my eyes to REAL COMPUTING

No such thing, Configurator King.

DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>On 8/14/2024 11:36 AM, Fantasy Feeb wrote:
>
>> GNU/Linux opened my eyes to REAL COMPUTING
>
>No such thing, Configurator King.

M$ is advanced enough, it just burns too many electrons. Some of us
want a desktop OS that just does what you expect it to do, instead of
Winblows with Copilot being shoved up our asses, and such.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 8/15/2024 6:53 PM, Joel wrote:
> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>> On 8/14/2024 11:36 AM, Fantasy Feeb wrote:
>>
>>> GNU/Linux opened my eyes to REAL COMPUTING
>>
>> No such thing, Configurator King.
>
>
> M$ is advanced enough, it just burns too many electrons.

You can recycle some with a big magnet.

> Some of us
> want a desktop OS that just does what you expect it to do, instead of
> Winblows with Copilot being shoved up our asses, and such.

Spare us. Linux is the king of flooding your system with a huge amt of
unwanted hobbyware.

Le 16-08-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
>
> Spare us. Linux is the king of flooding your system with a huge amt of
> unwanted hobbyware.

You are confusing Windows with Linux. Windows comes with what Microsoft
decided is best for you. Linux comes with what you distro or you decide.
If you are using Mint or Ubuntu, you can be right. But you can chose
other distros with just what you want.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On 2024-08-16 4:46 p.m., Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 16-08-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Spare us. Linux is the king of flooding your system with a huge amt of
>> unwanted hobbyware.
>
> You are confusing Windows with Linux. Windows comes with what Microsoft
> decided is best for you. Linux comes with what you distro or you decide.
> If you are using Mint or Ubuntu, you can be right. But you can chose
> other distros with just what you want.

In reality, both Windows and most Linux distributions come with what
they decided was best for you. The difference is that Linux
distributions allow you to remove whatever they decided entirely and
replace it with something preferable. Microsoft often doesn't care
whether you like their choice or not and forces you to keep it on your
system. If you decide not to use their software, they'll nag you into
doing so.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On 8/16/2024 4:46 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 16-08-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Spare us. Linux is the king of flooding your system with a huge amt of
>> unwanted hobbyware.
>
> You are confusing Windows with Linux. Windows comes with what Microsoft
> decided is best for you. Linux comes with what you distro or you decide.
> If you are using Mint or Ubuntu, you can be right. But you can chose
> other distros with just what you want.

Which?

There are no distros I'm aware of that let you choose only the
individual packages you want.

There are a few that offer a 'barebones' install as a base you can later
build upon, but almost all distros default with a large number of
(cr)apps you didn't ask for.

So Joel's whine about 'CoPilot being shoved up our asses' is bogus by
comparison to what Linux forces on you.

On 8/16/2024 5:03 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:

> Microsoft often doesn't care whether you like their choice or not
> and forces you to keep it on your system.

Total bs.

Win11: Settings | Apps | Installed Apps

There will be exactly ONE app you can't uninstall: MS Edge (and related).

On 2024-08-16 5:32 p.m., DFS wrote:
> On 8/16/2024 5:03 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>
> > Microsoft often doesn't care whether you like their choice or not
> > and forces you to keep it on your system.
>
>
> Total bs.
>
> Win11: Settings | Apps | Installed Apps
>
> There will be exactly ONE app you can't uninstall: MS Edge (and related).

And that one app is constantly loaded, bugs you for not using it over
another browser, insists that you use its start page if you do decide to
use it, insists that you use Bing, etc.. My point stands.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 17:21:45 -0400, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote in
<v9oft5$1i5tb$4@dont-email.me>:

> On 8/16/2024 4:46 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 16-08-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Spare us. Linux is the king of flooding your system with a huge amt
>>> of unwanted hobbyware.
>>
>> You are confusing Windows with Linux. Windows comes with what Microsoft
>> decided is best for you. Linux comes with what you distro or you
>> decide.
>> If you are using Mint or Ubuntu, you can be right. But you can chose
>> other distros with just what you want.
>
>
> Which?
>
> There are no distros I'm aware of that let you choose only the
> individual packages you want.
>
> There are a few that offer a 'barebones' install as a base you can later
> build upon, but almost all distros default with a large number of
> (cr)apps you didn't ask for.
>
> So Joel's whine about 'CoPilot being shoved up our asses' is bogus by
> comparison to what Linux forces on you.

Last time I used Fedora, it asked what sets of packages you wanted
added -- albeit in broad categories.

For instance, one choice was "development workstation", so it would
install c and maybe c++ (don't remember). "Web server" and "Mail server"
were other choices.

Perhaps if you're kind, a Fedora user will speak up and help you out.

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.11.0-rc3 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"Internal combustion engines are the dinosaurs' revenge"

vallor wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 17:21:45 -0400, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote in
> <v9oft5$1i5tb$4@dont-email.me>:
>
>> On 8/16/2024 4:46 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 16-08-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Spare us. Linux is the king of flooding your system with a huge amt
>>>> of unwanted hobbyware.
>>>
>>> You are confusing Windows with Linux. Windows comes with what Microsoft
>>> decided is best for you. Linux comes with what you distro or you
>>> decide.
>>> If you are using Mint or Ubuntu, you can be right. But you can chose
>>> other distros with just what you want.
>>
>>
>> Which?
>>
>> There are no distros I'm aware of that let you choose only the
>> individual packages you want.
>>
>> There are a few that offer a 'barebones' install as a base you can later
>> build upon, but almost all distros default with a large number of
>> (cr)apps you didn't ask for.
>>
>> So Joel's whine about 'CoPilot being shoved up our asses' is bogus by
>> comparison to what Linux forces on you.
>
> Last time I used Fedora, it asked what sets of packages you wanted
> added -- albeit in broad categories.
>
> For instance, one choice was "development workstation", so it would
> install c and maybe c++ (don't remember). "Web server" and "Mail server"
> were other choices.
>
> Perhaps if you're kind, a Fedora user will speak up and help you out.
>
i like mutt

On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 17:03:55 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> In reality, both Windows and most Linux distributions come with what
> they decided was best for you.

Windows doesn’t have the concept of third-party repos (e.g. “PPAs” in the
Ubuntu world), Linux does.

Linux distro maintainers realize that one size does not fit all; not only
do they give you the choice of what to install up front (or add later),
they also make it easy for other parties to build their own packages for
the same distro.

On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 17:32:19 -0400, DFS wrote:

> There will be exactly ONE app you can't uninstall: MS Edge (and
> related).

You can’t remove Windows Explorer, either.

Linux distros give you a choice of GUI environments, remember; you can
even run with no GUI at all, if you want.

What’s the guess that, at some point, Microsoft will make WSL2 part of the
mandatory install as well?

Le 16-08-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
> On 8/16/2024 4:46 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 16-08-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Spare us. Linux is the king of flooding your system with a huge amt of
>>> unwanted hobbyware.
>>
>> You are confusing Windows with Linux. Windows comes with what Microsoft
>> decided is best for you. Linux comes with what you distro or you decide.
>> If you are using Mint or Ubuntu, you can be right. But you can chose
>> other distros with just what you want.
>
> Which?

LFS, Gentoo, Alpine and Archlinux. I would have to look a little bit
more to be sure, but I'd say NixOS and Guix will let you have only what
you want. Some time in the past, I don't know if that has changed today,
but slackware worked the same as Archlinux providing you only the core
functionalities and letting you install everything else. I don't know if
that changed but I guess it's still the same.

> There are a few that offer a 'barebones' install as a base you can later
> build upon, but almost all distros default with a large number of
> (cr)apps you didn't ask for.

Yes. That's what I say. It's not Linux, it the distro. And you can chose
your distro. If most people rely on distro with full of crap, it's not
Linux fault.

> So Joel's whine about 'CoPilot being shoved up our asses' is bogus by
> comparison to what Linux forces on you.

It's not Linux. It's the distro you chose which do that. And as he's
using Mint, it's the distro he choses to, but it's Joel.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On 2024-08-16, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-08-16 4:46 p.m., Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 16-08-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Spare us. Linux is the king of flooding your system with a huge amt of
>>> unwanted hobbyware.
>>
>> You are confusing Windows with Linux. Windows comes with what Microsoft
>> decided is best for you. Linux comes with what you distro or you decide.
>> If you are using Mint or Ubuntu, you can be right. But you can chose
>> other distros with just what you want.
>
> In reality, both Windows and most Linux distributions come with what
> they decided was best for you. The difference is that Linux
> distributions allow you to remove whatever they decided entirely and
> replace it with something preferable. Microsoft often doesn't care
> whether you like their choice or not and forces you to keep it on your
> system. If you decide not to use their software, they'll nag you into
> doing so.

That pretty much sums it up.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-08-16, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-08-16 5:32 p.m., DFS wrote:
>> On 8/16/2024 5:03 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Microsoft often doesn't care whether you like their choice or not
>> > and forces you to keep it on your system.
>>
>>
>> Total bs.
>>
>> Win11: Settings | Apps | Installed Apps
>>
>> There will be exactly ONE app you can't uninstall: MS Edge (and related).
>
> And that one app is constantly loaded, bugs you for not using it over
> another browser, insists that you use its start page if you do decide to
> use it, insists that you use Bing, etc.. My point stands.

You also get ads and nags for your trouble.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

% wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> i like mutt

+1

--
Q: Why should you always serve a Southern Carolina football man
soup in a plate?
A: 'Cause if you give him a bowl, he'll throw it away.

Le 16-08-2024, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> a écrit :
> On 2024-08-16 4:46 p.m., Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 16-08-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Spare us. Linux is the king of flooding your system with a huge amt of
>>> unwanted hobbyware.
>>
>> You are confusing Windows with Linux. Windows comes with what Microsoft
>> decided is best for you. Linux comes with what you distro or you decide.
>> If you are using Mint or Ubuntu, you can be right. But you can chose
>> other distros with just what you want.
>
> In reality, both Windows and most Linux distributions come with what
> they decided was best for you. The difference is that Linux
> distributions allow you to remove whatever they decided entirely and
> replace it with something preferable. Microsoft often doesn't care
> whether you like their choice or not and forces you to keep it on your
> system. If you decide not to use their software, they'll nag you into
> doing so.

Yes, but unlike Windows who comes for every Windows user, your distro
comes for the reason you chose it.

What I mean is for example Archlinux or Gentoo consider you know Linux
well enough to know what you do and want. So they provide you the
minimal and a way to install more. When Mint and Ubuntu consider you are
beginner and don't know what you do and want, so they install everything
you may want in the future to avoid you the need to install it. At the
same time, Red Hat consider you are an enterprise, know well enough
Linux and can't avoid breakage in the upgrade without need for the last
version. So, they have server solutions, outdated, but secured.

So, if you are a beginner to Linux, you can chose Archlinux or Gentoo,
but you need to be ready to learn a lot. If you don't choose the right
distro, it won't be good, but it's not the fault of the distro.

> The difference is that Linux distributions allow you to remove
> whatever they decided entirely and replace it with something
> preferable.

Yes and no. When you choose something very minimal like Gentoo or
Archlinux, there is nothing to replace or it can be very tricky because
it's the core of the solution. Like systemd: like it or not, but if you
like it avoid Gentoo and if you don't avoid Archlinux or it will be
really tricky.

And if you install something which comes for a lot of things, like ubuntu
or Mint, as you don't really know what's in your computer and why, it
can be difficult to know if you can't remove it or not because you don't
know the impacts.

So, really, with Linux, you can have what you want but you need to chose
wisely from the start because depending on the reason changing default
can be more or less tricky. Now, if you begin, you can use Ubuntu or
Mint to discover Linux, it's easy and when you know why you don't like
it, you can switch to something else which doesn't have those issues.
It's easy, you save your dotfiles, install the new distro and
everything's fine. I'm not speaking of distro hopping. I'm speaking of
changing distro because something is wrong with it for you: you don't
like the package manager or you have too many/few updates or I don't
know what but things related with the distro, not things related with
the configuration.

> Microsoft often doesn't care whether you like their choice or not and
> forces you to keep it on your system. If you decide not to use their
> software, they'll nag you into doing so.

Not exactly. They want you to give them your money, so they care about
what you like/need and they'll provide it to you as long as it doesn't
cost them too much.

For example, when I don't remember which Windows version was too old and
not worth maintaining, they removed it and said this version couldn't be
sold with new computers anymore. But the eeepc were unable to run with
the supported version of Windows but could run with the new version of
Ubuntu. And a lot of people where happy to buy eeepc with ubuntu. And
Microsoft was scared and reversed their decision: the unmaintained
version of Windows was maintained again and eeepc with Windows could be
sold. So they care about the consumers and know where they can push
without issue.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On 2024-08-17 10:04 a.m., Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 16-08-2024, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> a écrit :
>> On 2024-08-16 4:46 p.m., Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 16-08-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Spare us. Linux is the king of flooding your system with a huge amt of
>>>> unwanted hobbyware.
>>>
>>> You are confusing Windows with Linux. Windows comes with what Microsoft
>>> decided is best for you. Linux comes with what you distro or you decide.
>>> If you are using Mint or Ubuntu, you can be right. But you can chose
>>> other distros with just what you want.
>>
>> In reality, both Windows and most Linux distributions come with what
>> they decided was best for you. The difference is that Linux
>> distributions allow you to remove whatever they decided entirely and
>> replace it with something preferable. Microsoft often doesn't care
>> whether you like their choice or not and forces you to keep it on your
>> system. If you decide not to use their software, they'll nag you into
>> doing so.
>
> Yes, but unlike Windows who comes for every Windows user, your distro
> comes for the reason you chose it.
>
> What I mean is for example Archlinux or Gentoo consider you know Linux
> well enough to know what you do and want. So they provide you the
> minimal and a way to install more. When Mint and Ubuntu consider you are
> beginner and don't know what you do and want, so they install everything
> you may want in the future to avoid you the need to install it. At the
> same time, Red Hat consider you are an enterprise, know well enough
> Linux and can't avoid breakage in the upgrade without need for the last
> version. So, they have server solutions, outdated, but secured.
>
> So, if you are a beginner to Linux, you can chose Archlinux or Gentoo,
> but you need to be ready to learn a lot. If you don't choose the right
> distro, it won't be good, but it's not the fault of the distro.

To Ubuntu's credit, it doesn't require you to install the things they
believe are best for you. You can install the default installation or a
minimal one depending on what's best for your use. I don't mind them
providing default software as long as I get to remove it if I don't like it.

>> The difference is that Linux distributions allow you to remove
>> whatever they decided entirely and replace it with something
>> preferable.
>
> Yes and no. When you choose something very minimal like Gentoo or
> Archlinux, there is nothing to replace or it can be very tricky because
> it's the core of the solution. Like systemd: like it or not, but if you
> like it avoid Gentoo and if you don't avoid Archlinux or it will be
> really tricky.
>
> And if you install something which comes for a lot of things, like ubuntu
> or Mint, as you don't really know what's in your computer and why, it
> can be difficult to know if you can't remove it or not because you don't
> know the impacts.
>
> So, really, with Linux, you can have what you want but you need to chose
> wisely from the start because depending on the reason changing default
> can be more or less tricky. Now, if you begin, you can use Ubuntu or
> Mint to discover Linux, it's easy and when you know why you don't like
> it, you can switch to something else which doesn't have those issues.
> It's easy, you save your dotfiles, install the new distro and
> everything's fine. I'm not speaking of distro hopping. I'm speaking of
> changing distro because something is wrong with it for you: you don't
> like the package manager or you have too many/few updates or I don't
> know what but things related with the distro, not things related with
> the configuration.

I think the biggest reason people change distributions is because one
ends up being too buggy to be used daily. Ubuntu-based distributions are
simply, but there is no denying that NVIDIA-equipped hardware won't run
perfectly with it. It could be because of the suspend issues or the
random freezing, but it doesn't handle NVIDIA as well as a distribution
like openSUSE does. Hopefully, this will change when the open NVIDIA
driver becomes the default.

>> Microsoft often doesn't care whether you like their choice or not and
>> forces you to keep it on your system. If you decide not to use their
>> software, they'll nag you into doing so.
>
> Not exactly. They want you to give them your money, so they care about
> what you like/need and they'll provide it to you as long as it doesn't
> cost them too much.
>
> For example, when I don't remember which Windows version was too old and
> not worth maintaining, they removed it and said this version couldn't be
> sold with new computers anymore. But the eeepc were unable to run with
> the supported version of Windows but could run with the new version of
> Ubuntu. And a lot of people where happy to buy eeepc with ubuntu. And
> Microsoft was scared and reversed their decision: the unmaintained
> version of Windows was maintained again and eeepc with Windows could be
> sold. So they care about the consumers and know where they can push
> without issue.

I'm pretty sure that it was XP. That operating system ended up being
supported until 2014 or so which has to be a record.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On 17 Aug 2024 10:25:50 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> LFS, Gentoo, Alpine and Archlinux. I would have to look a little bit
> more to be sure, but I'd say NixOS and Guix will let you have only what
> you want. Some time in the past, I don't know if that has changed today,
> but slackware worked the same as Archlinux providing you only the core
> functionalities and letting you install everything else. I don't know if
> that changed but I guess it's still the same.

Kali allows for a lot of granularity:

https://www.kali.org/docs/general-use/metapackages/

Or you can go with kali-linux-everything.

DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:

>> Some of us
>> want a desktop OS that just does what you expect it to do, [Linux,] instead of
>> Winblows with Copilot being shoved up our asses, and such.
>
>Spare us. Linux is the king of flooding your system with a huge amt of
>unwanted hobbyware.

BS. I'm lovin' every minute of openSUSE. It's not even anything like
Mint, but you know what, I'm adjusting, and it's fine.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.