Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
> > Andy Burns wrote:
> >
> >> Aren't DECT phone common over there? Many of them have SMS capability
> >> when on a PSTN/POTS line.
> >
> > In Europe IP-Telephone Services are standard. POTS/PSTN does not exist
> > anymore. This dates back to 2017 in the case of Switzerland.

> I think you are overstating the facts, I'm sure most European countries
> are in the process of migrating to VoIP, as far as I can tell only
> Germany, the Netherlands and Sweden claim to have completed this, and
> even then, does "completed" mean absolutely 100%, I doubt it ...

And even if it's IP telephony, the user end, i.e. the 'last mile' can
still be POTS, i.e. local copper wire and *analog* telephones. For
example my neighbour (in The Netherlands) still has that and she doesn't
want to change and she doesn't have to change.

OTOH, AFAIK her base-station/handset combination is DECT, so the very
last bit is partly digital, but not IP. Confusing, isn't it!? :-)

Frank Slootweg wrote:

> the 'last mile' can
> still be POTS, i.e. local copper wire andanalog telephones. For
> example my neighbour (in The Netherlands) still has that and she doesn't
> want to change and she doesn't have to change.

BT here are going to have an option for non-broadband users to continue
with a "POTS-like" service for a few years beyond the supposed PSTN
retirement date.

There has been concern over phone lines stopping working during power
cuts, has your PTT made provision for that?

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
[...]

> We were forced to rent telephones until they broke up Bell
> Telephone. Long distance calls only became affordable much
> later. To this day I wouldn't call Europe. I have no idea what
> it would cost.

Well, you could install Skype on your computer (or smartphone ("Yeah,
*right*!")) and call European landlines for a few cents per minute (if
that 'much') and mobile numbers for a bit more.

And, as Carlos mentioned, you can tell beforehand whether a number is
a landline number or a mobile number.

If you can give me an example target country, I can lookup the rates
for you (or you could do it yourself).

BTW, Skype is owned by Microsoft, the company we all, and you
especially, love so much.

[...]

Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
> On 04.01.25 15:01, Andy Burns wrote:
> > Newyana2 wrote:
> >
> >> what Andy described does not exist in the US.
> >> We have basic telephone lines, first installed by Al Bell.
> >> And we now have cellphones
> >
> > Until recently DECT phones plug into basic phone lines.
>
> DECT has absolutely nothing to do with the backend of the telefon-system
> in a house. It is simply a radio standard.

Exactly! Like Bluetooth has nothing to do with wireless headphones!
.... Oops! Whats' wrong with this picture!?

[Another false absolute deleted.]

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> > the 'last mile' can
> > still be POTS, i.e. local copper wire andanalog telephones. For
> > example my neighbour (in The Netherlands) still has that and she doesn't
> > want to change and she doesn't have to change.
>
> BT here are going to have an option for non-broadband users to continue
> with a "POTS-like" service for a few years beyond the supposed PSTN
> retirement date.

Our relatives in Australia had a complete - quite bulky - NBN
(National Broadband Network) fibre broadband setup, complete with
battery backup power, just for their landline. Never mind that the phone
was DECT, so it would be dead anyway if the power failed. (Now they've
moved and are mobile phone only.)

> There has been concern over phone lines stopping working during power
> cuts, has your PTT made provision for that?

"power cuts"!? What are those!? Just kidding. Our grid has been very,
very reliable, but now with the energy transition that has/will become
worse, because there's too much power (both supply and demand), but too
little grid.

But to answer your question, I have no idea how that will be
addressed. Currently probably one of the two (mobile/landline) will be
up when the other is down, but in severe cases, both might be down.

In our case, during a power cut, we also don't have water, because the
pump which has to pump the water up in our appartment building runs on
power and has no battery backup.

On 1/4/2025 1:32 PM, Chris wrote:

>> About 1/3 of the US still doesn't even have cell
>> access.
>
> Do you mean geographically or by population? I suspect the former.
>
Geographically, yes. There are large areas with sparse population
and the telcos are not required to reach them.

>> I'm not sure, but I think Micky is in the US. Is so then
>> he cannot receive texts over his landline He can only
>> receive audio.
>
> As I (and others) have pointed out the system mentioned is an audio call,
> not text. He (and you) could receive txt messages via your landlines *if*
> your telcos implemented something similar.
>

Yes, but as far as I know there's no such option. Though
it could be handy for situations where companies insist on
a 2FA code. Many are happy to send it via email, but at
one point I was considering opening an investment account
and I couldn't sign up without a cellphone. They won't send
codes via audio. I suspect that they just want the cellphone
number and to get people using apps, so that they can track
their customers and perhaps sell personal data.

On 2025-01-04 20:41, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> Aren't DECT phone common over there? Many of them have SMS capability
>>>> when on a PSTN/POTS line.
>>>
>>> In Europe IP-Telephone Services are standard. POTS/PSTN does not exist
>>> anymore. This dates back to 2017 in the case of Switzerland.
>
>
>> I think you are overstating the facts, I'm sure most European countries
>> are in the process of migrating to VoIP, as far as I can tell only
>> Germany, the Netherlands and Sweden claim to have completed this, and
>> even then, does "completed" mean absolutely 100%, I doubt it ...
>
> And even if it's IP telephony, the user end, i.e. the 'last mile' can
> still be POTS, i.e. local copper wire and *analog* telephones. For
> example my neighbour (in The Netherlands) still has that and she doesn't
> want to change and she doesn't have to change.

Depends on the country. Here, those people that did not want to change,
have been forced to change, or service would be simply stopped. On
Telefónica, which I think it is still the major provider, it is fibre or
radio for the landline. Copper, no way.

Same thing for those providers that simply rented the service from
Telefónica.

>
> OTOH, AFAIK her base-station/handset combination is DECT, so the very
> last bit is partly digital, but not IP. Confusing, isn't it!? :-)

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> In the UK receiving txt messages via landline is (was? I've not had one for
>> ages) commonplace: texts are delivered as an automated voice message.
>>
> Yes, still true, it depends on the way the SMS gets sent to you
> though. We have DECT phones on a landline which isn't yet VOIP.
> The DECT handsets can receive and display SMS but, as I said,
> depending on the sender and intermediate systems, we sometimes get an
> actual text and other times a computer generated voice reading the
> message.

Thanks for confirming. I suspect with the move to VOIP receiving texts will
be transparent in what used to be landlines.

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> On 1/4/2025 1:32 PM, Chris wrote:
>
>>> About 1/3 of the US still doesn't even have cell
>>> access.
>>
>> Do you mean geographically or by population? I suspect the former.
>>
> Geographically, yes. There are large areas with sparse population
> and the telcos are not required to reach them.
>
>>> I'm not sure, but I think Micky is in the US. Is so then
>>> he cannot receive texts over his landline He can only
>>> receive audio.
>>
>> As I (and others) have pointed out the system mentioned is an audio call,
>> not text. He (and you) could receive txt messages via your landlines *if*
>> your telcos implemented something similar.
>>
>
> Yes, but as far as I know there's no such option. Though
> it could be handy for situations where companies insist on
> a 2FA code. Many are happy to send it via email, but at
> one point I was considering opening an investment account
> and I couldn't sign up without a cellphone. They won't send
> codes via audio. I suspect that they just want the cellphone
> number and to get people using apps, so that they can track
> their customers and perhaps sell personal data.

It's more likely that they simply don't want to cater to people without
cell phones. Not a worthwhile demographic.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> [...]
>
>> We were forced to rent telephones until they broke up Bell
>> Telephone. Long distance calls only became affordable much
>> later. To this day I wouldn't call Europe. I have no idea what
>> it would cost.
>
> Well, you could install Skype on your computer (or smartphone ("Yeah,
> *right*!")) and call European landlines for a few cents per minute (if
> that 'much') and mobile numbers for a bit more.

Or simply use whatsapp. Large swathes of the European population use
whatsapp and calls only require data; i.e. free using home wifi.

> And, as Carlos mentioned, you can tell beforehand whether a number is
> a landline number or a mobile number.

You need to know the rules, however, as each country is different. In
France, for example, mobiles start 06/07 and landlines start 01/02/03/04/05
depending on the region.

> If you can give me an example target country, I can lookup the rates
> for you (or you could do it yourself).
>
> BTW, Skype is owned by Microsoft, the company we all, and you
> especially, love so much.
>
> [...]
>

Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
> On 04.01.25 13:55, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> Aren't DECT phone common over there? Many of them have SMS capability
>>>> when on a PSTN/POTS line.
>>>
>>> In Europe IP-Telephone Services are standard. POTS/PSTN does not exist
>>> anymore. This dates back to 2017 in the case of Switzerland.
>> I think you are overstating the facts, I'm sure most European countries
>> are in the process of migrating to VoIP, as far as I can tell only
>> Germany, the Netherlands and Sweden claim to have completed this, and
>> even then, does "completed" mean absolutely 100%, I doubt it ...
>
> Nonsense. Switzerland ended POTS/PSTN 2017.
>
> Scandinavia and Switzerland are at least 5 year rather 10 ahead of
> Germany which is massively underdeveloped compared to Switzerland and
> Scandinavia. Worse so in mobile telecommunication.
>

The UK only *started* phasing out POTS at the end of 2023...

On 2025-01-05 01:39, Chris wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>> Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

....

>> And, as Carlos mentioned, you can tell beforehand whether a number is
>> a landline number or a mobile number.
>
> You need to know the rules, however, as each country is different. In
> France, for example, mobiles start 06/07 and landlines start 01/02/03/04/05
> depending on the region.

There are websites that say.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2025-01-05 01:14, Chris wrote:
> Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> In the UK receiving txt messages via landline is (was? I've not had one for
>>> ages) commonplace: texts are delivered as an automated voice message.
>>>
>> Yes, still true, it depends on the way the SMS gets sent to you
>> though. We have DECT phones on a landline which isn't yet VOIP.
>> The DECT handsets can receive and display SMS but, as I said,
>> depending on the sender and intermediate systems, we sometimes get an
>> actual text and other times a computer generated voice reading the
>> message.
>
> Thanks for confirming. I suspect with the move to VOIP receiving texts will
> be transparent in what used to be landlines.

Depends. In Spain the change to VoIP is hidden. The telco pretends it is
still POTS, and charges for all the POTS services. For example, callid
has a price per month. The price structure is that of POTS. And they
keep a secret how to configure a true VoIP phone (connected with
ethernet or wifi, not copper pair), and do not offer the new services
that VoIP allow.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> On 1/4/2025 1:32 PM, Chris wrote:
>
> >> About 1/3 of the US still doesn't even have cell
> >> access.
> >
> > Do you mean geographically or by population? I suspect the former.
> >
> Geographically, yes. There are large areas with sparse population
> and the telcos are not required to reach them.
>
> >> I'm not sure, but I think Micky is in the US. Is so then
> >> he cannot receive texts over his landline He can only
> >> receive audio.
> >
> > As I (and others) have pointed out the system mentioned is an audio call,
> > not text. He (and you) could receive txt messages via your landlines *if*
> > your telcos implemented something similar.
> >
>
> Yes, but as far as I know there's no such option. Though
> it could be handy for situations where companies insist on
> a 2FA code. Many are happy to send it via email, but at
> one point I was considering opening an investment account
> and I couldn't sign up without a cellphone. They won't send
> codes via audio. I suspect that they just want the cellphone
> number and to get people using apps, so that they can track
> their customers and perhaps sell personal data.
>
That's what I do in the UK. I have an 07xxx number (i.e. a number
that looks like a mobile number in the UK) which is actually
a VOIP number and I have the VOIP provider route SMS messages to my
E-Mail. So 2FA authorisation numbers arrive in my E-Mail and, since I
use my computer rather than my phone for most things, that's very
handy. Simply copy/paste to where It needs to go.

--
Chris Green
·

On 04.01.25 18:40, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> Until recently DECT phones plug into basic phone lines.
>>
>> DECT has absolutely nothing to do with the backend of the telefon-system
>> in a house. It is simply a radio standard.
> Nevertheless, it is common for DECT phones to plug into analogue phone
> lines.

Exactly so. The DECT-Standard is much older than IP-telephony. It is
just a radio standard. The handsets DECT-communicate with the base which
itself can be part of an analogue or a digital system.

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

On 04.01.25 21:47, Newyana2 wrote:
> Yes, but as far as I know there's no such option. Though
> it could be handy for situations where companies insist on
> a 2FA code. Many are happy to send it via email, but at
> one point I was considering opening an investment account
> and I couldn't sign up without a cellphone. They won't send
> codes via audio. I suspect that they just want the cellphone
> number and to get people using apps, so that they can track
> their customers and perhaps sell personal data.

My goodness! Again one of your conspiracy theories!

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2025-01-04 20:41, Frank Slootweg wrote:
[...]

> > And even if it's IP telephony, the user end, i.e. the 'last mile' can
> > still be POTS, i.e. local copper wire and *analog* telephones. For
> > example my neighbour (in The Netherlands) still has that and she doesn't
> > want to change and she doesn't have to change.
>
> Depends on the country. Here, those people that did not want to change,
> have been forced to change, or service would be simply stopped. On
> Telefónica, which I think it is still the major provider, it is fibre or
> radio for the landline. Copper, no way.

As I mentioned in another response, in Australia my relatives were
indeed forced to a fibre NBN (broadband) setup with battery backup
just for their landline.

AFAIK, we're not yet at this stage in The Netherlands. Anyway, as I
said, only the last part is copper and theoretically it could stay that
way. I.e. like my HFC (Hybrid Fiber Coaxial) Internet/TV connection:
Nearly all of it is fiber, but the last part is coaxial cable.

[...]

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> > Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> We were forced to rent telephones until they broke up Bell
> >> Telephone. Long distance calls only became affordable much
> >> later. To this day I wouldn't call Europe. I have no idea what
> >> it would cost.
> >
> > Well, you could install Skype on your computer (or smartphone ("Yeah,
> > *right*!")) and call European landlines for a few cents per minute (if
> > that 'much') and mobile numbers for a bit more.
>
> Or simply use whatsapp. Large swathes of the European population use
> whatsapp and calls only require data; i.e. free using home wifi.

Yes, but that applies to normal people in non third-world countries.
That doesn't apply here! :-) Expecting the caller to accept to use Skype
is already a big ask and probably a too big one.

But yes, we use WhatsApp with our relatives in Australia, all the
time.

[...]

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> On 1/4/2025 10:22 AM, Theo wrote:
>
> > I think you might be using DECT without realising it. eg from a search on
> > Amazon.com for 'cordless phone', #4 is an AT&T branded DECT base and handset:
> >
> > https://www.amazon.com/AT-BL102-2-2-Handset-Answering-Unsurpassed/dp/B086QB7WZ1
> >
> > and similar are at #6, #9, #11, #12. Most of the others are Panasonic or
> > V-Tech, many of which have DECT in the title too.
> >
> > What model of cordless landline phone do you have?
> >
>
> Panasonic. But note that the phone in the picture has an
> antenna. Mine is wired directly to the phone line, which
> goes to the VOIP device but used to go to a modem and
> before that wen't to public telephone lines. The extensions
> are wireless, but not the base station/answering machine.
>
> I've never seen a fully wireless landline. But maybe it's not
> really different. Using radio waves to get to the phone line is
> not fundamentally changing the technology. The phone in the
> picture has the same basic display and functions. The only
> difference seems to be that it doesn't need to be direct-wired.
>
DECT handsets are cordless, as the name suggests. They talk via radio to
the base station, hence the antenna. The base is corded, either to the
classic copper phone line or to a VOIP converter box (maybe in the ISP's
router).

It's also possible to get bases which do VOIP directly, ie plug into an
ethernet network - they're doing DECT between the handset and the base and
converting it directly to VOIP rather than going via a copper phone line.
Some routers also include this DECT-VOIP gateway, ie you pair your DECT
handset with the router and then the outbound phone call is all VOIP.

DECT range can be up to 400m from a single base, so is useful for people
with a large property without needing to install boosters everywhere.

> If DECT eventually goes to the landline
> then it would seem that the lack of landline texting in the
> US may be more due to simple lack of support rather than
> technical issues. Not that I mind. I have no interest in
> receiving 100 characters of misspelled trivia, scrolling
> across my tiny phone screen like news headlines. As it
> stands, I'm glad that people can't text me.

My Gigaset handset with VOIP base will actually scroll the news headlines
and weather on its tiny screen, fetched from some Gigaset server. It's not
the most useful feature :-)

Landline SMS can be useful when you don't have mobile signal locally but
need to receive verification SMS from various companies. Although the
takeup of wifi calling on mobiles has made that less relevant.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
[...]

> DECT handsets are cordless, as the name suggests. They talk via radio to
> the base station, hence the antenna. The base is corded, either to the
> classic copper phone line or to a VOIP converter box (maybe in the ISP's
> router).

Just a minor, but important, comment: (Some/most/all?) DECT handsets
and base stations use *internal* antennas. So if you don't see an
antenna, that doesn't mean it can't be a DECT device, but also not that
it is a DECT device, because it *could* - but is not likely to - use
other cordless technology.

[...]

On 1/3/25 6:26 AM, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> On 03.01.25 14:21, micky wrote:
>> When someone unknowingly sends a text to a landline, does he get some
>> indication back that the text did not reach the destination, because it
>> can't receive texts?
>
> Here fixed lines get SMS. For about 20years now?

Ooma VOIP doesn't. When that, my t-mobile prepaid phone and my
google-voice phone were rejected I had to have the stupid site send the
code to my daughter, who phoned me. I can only see this security
theater getting worse.

jUST SEND ME A DAMN EMAIL!

--
Cheers, Bev
"Not everyone can be above average so why
shouldn't we be the ones to suck?"
--Anonymous School Board Member

I've never been able to receive text messages on my Ooma VOIP number,
but I thought it might be interesting to try to send one. My question:
How does one do that? Email to the phone number? Nope. "Messages"
tried but failed.

Anything?

--
Cheers, Bev
"Not everyone can be above average so why
shouldn't we be the ones to suck?"
--Anonymous School Board Member

On 1/5/2025 3:25 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> I've never been able to receive text messages on my Ooma VOIP number,
> but I thought it might be interesting to try to send one.  My question:
> How does one do that?  Email to the phone number?  Nope.  "Messages"
> tried but failed.
>
> Anything?
>
>

You can. These should be up to date:

AT&T: number@txt.att.net
Qwest: number@qwestmp.com
T-Mobile: number@tmomail.net
Verizon: number@vtext.com
Sprint: number@messaging.sprintpcs.com or number@pm.sprint.com
Virgin Mobile: number@vmobl.com
Nextel: number@messaging.nextel.com
Alltel: number@message.alltel.com
Metro PCS: number@mymetropcs.com
Powertel: number@ptel.com
Boost Mobile: number@myboostmobile.com
Suncom: number@tms.suncom.com
Tracfone: number@mmst5.tracfone.com
U.S. Cellular: number@email.uscc.net

You just send an email to their phone number. The trick is
that you need to know their provider. The other catch is that
they'll have to send an email to respond to you. Confusing.
Probably most people wouldn't know how to handle it.

So it's like 1234567890@vtext.com Hopefully the recipient
knows it's a joke and knows that you can't receive a text
in return. I don't know how they see the sender identified.

On 1/5/25 12:32 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
> On 1/5/2025 3:25 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>> I've never been able to receive text messages on my Ooma VOIP number,
>> but I thought it might be interesting to try to send one.  My question:
>> How does one do that?  Email to the phone number?  Nope.  "Messages"
>> tried but failed.
>>
>> Anything?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wanted to try sending a text message from my
cell TO my Ooma VOIP number. I'll try emailing ###@ooma.com and see
what happens.

> You can. These should be up to date:

Thanks, this is useful information.

> AT&T: number@txt.att.net
> Qwest: number@qwestmp.com
> T-Mobile: number@tmomail.net
> Verizon: number@vtext.com
> Sprint: number@messaging.sprintpcs.com or number@pm.sprint.com
> Virgin Mobile: number@vmobl.com
> Nextel: number@messaging.nextel.com
> Alltel: number@message.alltel.com
> Metro PCS: number@mymetropcs.com
> Powertel: number@ptel.com
> Boost Mobile: number@myboostmobile.com
> Suncom: number@tms.suncom.com
> Tracfone: number@mmst5.tracfone.com
> U.S. Cellular: number@email.uscc.net
>
> You just send an email to their phone number. The trick is
> that you need to know their provider. The other catch is that
> they'll have to send an email to respond to you. Confusing.
> Probably most people wouldn't know how to handle it.
>
> So it's like 1234567890@vtext.com Hopefully the recipient
> knows it's a joke and knows that you can't receive a text
> in return. I don't know how they see the sender identified.

I've emailed to my grandspawn ###@att.net with my computer. It shows
'sent from' my email address, and she's replied to me.

--
Cheers, Bev
666øF -- the oven temperature for roast beast.

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/5/25 12:32 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
> > On 1/5/2025 3:25 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> >> I've never been able to receive text messages on my Ooma VOIP number,
> >> but I thought it might be interesting to try to send one.  My question:
> >> How does one do that?  Email to the phone number?  Nope.  "Messages"
> >> tried but failed.
> >>
> >> Anything?
>
> Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wanted to try sending a text message from my
> cell TO my Ooma VOIP number. I'll try emailing ###@ooma.com and see
> what happens.

Can't you just use your cell to SMS your Ooma number +1 (xxx) xxx-xxxx like
any other cellphone number?

> > You can. These should be up to date:
>
> Thanks, this is useful information.

To send from your Ooma number, it's possible they also provide a web page or
mobile app that allows sending SMS with their system. Although maybe you
need to be on their business package, I don't know.

Theo