I've been playing Solitaire Klondike ad free on my Xiaomi Redmi Note 10
for almost 3 years. It's an old app and there have been no updates until
today, when one came through (for compatibility with Android 13 IIRC).
I've been on 13 for some time, but thought it might be worth updating
the app in case other changes had been made. So against my better
judgement I installed the update.

On running, it locked the phone up with a green screen (the app
background colour - baize green), instead of advancing to the card
layout. Even when working with the previous version the app hadn't, by
design, shown the system buttons at the bottom of the screen. In the end
I had to reboot the phone to get back control. I uninstalled and
reinstalled the app and tried again with the same result. I did find
that after several attempts swiping up on the green screen would show
the system buttons for a few seconds, and I could get back to the
phone's main screen. I've uninstalled the app.

I can't believe that this update was properly tested before release,
unless for some reason it's only my phone it doesn't like.

--
Jeff

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> I've been playing Solitaire Klondike ad free on my Xiaomi Redmi Note 10
> for almost 3 years. It's an old app and there have been no updates until
> today, when one came through (for compatibility with Android 13 IIRC).
> I've been on 13 for some time, but thought it might be worth updating
> the app in case other changes had been made. So against my better
> judgement I installed the update.
>
> On running, it locked the phone up with a green screen (the app
> background colour - baize green), instead of advancing to the card
> layout. Even when working with the previous version the app hadn't, by
> design, shown the system buttons at the bottom of the screen. In the end
> I had to reboot the phone to get back control. I uninstalled and
> reinstalled the app and tried again with the same result. I did find
> that after several attempts swiping up on the green screen would show
> the system buttons for a few seconds, and I could get back to the
> phone's main screen. I've uninstalled the app.
>
> I can't believe that this update was properly tested before release,
> unless for some reason it's only my phone it doesn't like.

"How to publish an Android App on Google Play Store: A step-by-step
guide"
https://orangesoft.co/blog/how-to-publish-an-android-app-on-google-play-store

Google reviews all app submissions, but I doubt a real person is
involved in every review of every app and every version of an app. They
likely run a battery of automated tests to check for compliance.

https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/14151465?hl=en

14 opted-in alpha testers isn't that many testers, especially consider
the possible range of support Android versions for an app, and the
custom version of each Android version that phone makers put on their
devices. All phone makers' custom versions would run into hundreds if
not thousands of testing platforms for just 1 Android version. 14, or
several dozen, is a tiny sampling of all platforms on which the app
might run.

A search at the Play Store on "solitaire klondike"

https://play.google.com/store/search?q=solitaire%20klondike&c=apps

finds several apps with those words in the app name. You didn't give
the URL to the app in Google's Play Store for anyone else to know which
one you are discussing.

When Google gets a submission from a developer to add a [new version of
an] app to their Play Store, I doubt they run the app on every version
of Android that the developer claims with which their app is compatible
nor run through every phone maker's customized version of every Android
version that has ever been available within the base range of Android
versions the app author claims to support. I've hit many apps that
claim they support the Android version on my phone, but they don't test
against the custom Android version that my phone maker put on their
phone. Google probably only tests on the latest 2 major versions of
base Android (what you get on their Pixel phones).

If you have a problem with an app, you might want to add a review to the
app's Play Store page while noting which phone (brand and model) and
which Android version you have on that phone. Sometimes there is a
viable link to the author's support site or an e-mail where you can also
send bug reports. Since the app just got updated, likely its author
will be responsive to bug reports. Doesn't sound like and old app that
has been abandoned by its author.

You might also try a clean[er] reinstall of the app. With the app still
installed, go into Android settings -> Apps, pick the Solitaire app, and
stop it (to remove from backgrounded running), clear cache, clear data
(you get prompted you'll lose data), uninstall, and then reinstall using
the Play Store app which does various checks on compatibility of an app
to ensure you get the app version that is listed as compatible with your
Android version. If you're getting an app from other than Google's Play
Store then you'll have to get the latest compatible version from
wherever you originally got the app, or use their updater (I think
Fdroid has its own updater app to find new app versions from their own
app repository).

Note that many app authors incorporate advertising libraries (SDKs) into
their apps, like Google's advertising platform. They don't do any
coding of the libs. They use as-is, and divulge themself of any
responsibility regarding the advertising platform's behavior. They have
no clue how the ad code works. They barely know how their own app's
code is supposed to work, and nothing of how the ad SDK works. For
example, some ads may display as fullscreened crap oblitering the nav
buttons at the bottom, and effectively rendering your phone unusable
until you exit the ad screen. I consider any in-app ads that go
fullscreen to be malware apps as they interfere with the use of YOUR
phone. Clicking on the "X" button could run a script instead of simply
close the ad screen. Instead, and if the Back button is still
available, that is a better choice to get rid of the ad screen than
using "X". If ads are blocked to the app, like using an adblocker proxy
or DNS server, the app may misbehave. The app author often does no
testing of how they app operates when web-centric content is blocked
from the app. And Google isn't going to curate an app ran under an
environment that deliberately alters the behavior of the app from how it
was delivered to Google.

On 10/07/2024 17:41, VanguardLH wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I've been playing Solitaire Klondike ad free on my Xiaomi Redmi Note 10
>> for almost 3 years. It's an old app and there have been no updates until
>> today, when one came through (for compatibility with Android 13 IIRC).
>> I've been on 13 for some time, but thought it might be worth updating
>> the app in case other changes had been made. So against my better
>> judgement I installed the update.
>>
>> On running, it locked the phone up with a green screen (the app
>> background colour - baize green), instead of advancing to the card
>> layout. Even when working with the previous version the app hadn't, by
>> design, shown the system buttons at the bottom of the screen. In the end
>> I had to reboot the phone to get back control. I uninstalled and
>> reinstalled the app and tried again with the same result. I did find
>> that after several attempts swiping up on the green screen would show
>> the system buttons for a few seconds, and I could get back to the
>> phone's main screen. I've uninstalled the app.
>>
>> I can't believe that this update was properly tested before release,
>> unless for some reason it's only my phone it doesn't like.
>
> "How to publish an Android App on Google Play Store: A step-by-step
> guide"
> https://orangesoft.co/blog/how-to-publish-an-android-app-on-google-play-store
>
> Google reviews all app submissions, but I doubt a real person is
> involved in every review of every app and every version of an app. They
> likely run a battery of automated tests to check for compliance.
>
> https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/14151465?hl=en

Is any testing done for updates other than by the developer? That
webpage states "If your application is successful, you can access
Production ... and can make your app available to billions of users on
Google Play when you think it's ready ... We recommend testing your app
extensively before publishing it to production, and routinely testing
any future updates you make."

I interpret that as after the initial release, any update testing is up
to the dev.

> A search at the Play Store on "solitaire klondike"
>
> https://play.google.com/store/search?q=solitaire%20klondike&c=apps
>
> finds several apps with those words in the app name. You didn't give
> the URL to the app in Google's Play Store for anyone else to know which
> one you are discussing.

There are very few ad-free. The one I was referring to is:
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.potatojam.classic.solitaire.klondike>

Note the "What's New" at the bottom:
"Fix bug with a green screen on start"!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, look at the comments, click on "all reviews" and sort them by
date (I *hate* all lists which default to a sort on "relevance".
Relevant to who??!!). The latest ones refers to the green screen. There
appears to be a new update to fix this, but as I've uninstalled the app
I haven't seen it. I've now downloaded an ad-free version with 16
different solitaire games from F-Droid.

I might try reinstalling in a few days with the latest update, but will
check the latest reviews first!

--
Jeff

On 11/07/2024 18:58, Jeff Layman wrote:

> I might try reinstalling in a few days with the latest update, but will
> check the latest reviews first!

I've just tried the latest update and the app is now ok.

--
Jeff

Jeff Layman wrote on Thu, 11 Jul 2024 18:58:14 +0100 :

>> A search at the Play Store on "solitaire klondike"
>>
>> https://play.google.com/store/search?q=solitaire%20klondike&c=apps
>>
>> finds several apps with those words in the app name. You didn't give
>> the URL to the app in Google's Play Store for anyone else to know which
>> one you are discussing.
>
> There are very few ad-free. The one I was referring to is:
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.potatojam.classic.solitaire.klondike>

Hi Jeff,

I never play games (so I don't know much about them) but I was surprised
you assessed the number of ad-free solitaire games on Android as "very
few", as I would have thought there were very many, not very few.

So I ran a search and found there are at least 324 apps with that in the
name which are also free, ad free, and in-app purchase free.

Take a look at my results run for this post, as shown in this screenshot.
<https://i.postimg.cc/CL0CYF32/solitaire01.jpg> 324 free/ad-free apps

What did I do wrong (given that over 300 similar apps seems like a lot)?

BTW, the number two app, ranked by the default sort, was the one you're
using by "Potato Jam" so you picked a good app it seems.

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> Wrote in message:

> I've been playing Solitaire Klondike ad free on my Xiaomi Redmi Note 10
> for almost 3 years. It's an old app and there have been no updates until
> today, when one came through (for compatibility with Android 13 IIRC).
> I've been on 13 for some time, but thought it might be worth updating
> the app in case other changes had been made. So against my better
> judgement I installed the update.
>
> ...
>
> I can't believe that this update was properly tested before release,
> unless for some reason it's only my phone it doesn't like.

It's a common problem with Google's ever-changing permission and
manifest requirements. But it has a support email address on the
G-play page.

I see it's from an 'indie developer in Belarus' but with an
address in Warwaw.
--
Remove numerics from my email address.

On 11/07/2024 22:29, Andrew wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote on Thu, 11 Jul 2024 18:58:14 +0100 :
>
>>> A search at the Play Store on "solitaire klondike"
>>>
>>> https://play.google.com/store/search?q=solitaire%20klondike&c=apps
>>>
>>> finds several apps with those words in the app name. You didn't give
>>> the URL to the app in Google's Play Store for anyone else to know which
>>> one you are discussing.
>>
>> There are very few ad-free. The one I was referring to is:
>> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.potatojam.classic.solitaire.klondike>
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> I never play games (so I don't know much about them) but I was surprised
> you assessed the number of ad-free solitaire games on Android as "very
> few", as I would have thought there were very many, not very few.

I am not a "gamer" as such. I just like to have a few simple logic games
to play (such as Simon Tatham's excellent collection) when waiting around.

> So I ran a search and found there are at least 324 apps with that in the
> name which are also free, ad free, and in-app purchase free.
>
> Take a look at my results run for this post, as shown in this screenshot.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/CL0CYF32/solitaire01.jpg> 324 free/ad-free apps
>
> What did I do wrong (given that over 300 similar apps seems like a lot)?

You used App Finder, rather than just use the Play Store search, which
is what I did on my cellphone. What is interesting about the Play Store
search is that even if you use "solitaire klondike free no ads" or
similar wording you get lots of results. It's only when you look at the
one and two star reviews you find they're *not* ad free at all! For
example, you'll find many reviews complaining that the incidence of ads
for that app have increased with the latest update. To do that, though,
you'll have to look at "all reviews", and change from "relevance" to
"most recent".

What is really strange is if you look at
<https://play.google.com/store/search?q=solitaire+no+ads+free+offline&c=apps>
in your PC's browser (I've no idea what a cellphone browser shows),
you'll find only four hits. Now change the search to
<https://play.google.com/store/search?q=solitaire%20klondike%20no%20ads%20free%20offline&c=apps>.
In other words add another limitation by using "klondike" as a required
search term. Mysteriously, you'll now find 30 hits!

> BTW, the number two app, ranked by the default sort, was the one you're
> using by "Potato Jam" so you picked a good app it seems.

Yes, I've always appreciated its simple interface. What I don't like is
the way that it automatically hides the android system buttons even when
working correctly, and I've not found a way (other than by using the
app's menu) to get them back.

The F-Droid alternative I've installed has a few more solitaire games,
including "Freecell" which I first played on a Windows NT4 PC around 30
years ago!

--
Jeff

Jeff Layman, 2024-07-10 10:05:

> I've been playing Solitaire Klondike ad free on my Xiaomi Redmi Note 10
> for almost 3 years. It's an old app and there have been no updates until
> today, when one came through (for compatibility with Android 13 IIRC).
> I've been on 13 for some time, but thought it might be worth updating
> the app in case other changes had been made. So against my better
> judgement I installed the update.

[...]

> I can't believe that this update was properly tested before release,
> unless for some reason it's only my phone it doesn't like.

Apps can just be published without any test at all. Google only checks
for known malicious elements with automated tests and blocks apps which
are considedered to be harmful.

But testing with real devices and different Android versions is still
the responsibility of the publisher. You may just have bad luck since
Xiaomi also implements their own UI including changing the behaviour of
the graphics output (e.g. custom "dark mode" even for apps which do not
support that etc.). Maybe this causes some problems with that game.

You can report this to the publisher - maybe they will provide an update
to fix this. However if no one ever reports issues like this, they will
never get fixed.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Jeff Layman, 2024-07-11 19:58:

> On 10/07/2024 17:41, VanguardLH wrote:
[...]
>> https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/14151465?hl=en
>
> Is any testing done for updates other than by the developer? That

No - not besides automated checking for known malware or basic stuff
like support for the minimum required API level.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Jeff Layman wrote on Fri, 12 Jul 2024 09:50:53 +0100 :

>> Take a look at my results run for this post, as shown in this screenshot.
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/CL0CYF32/solitaire01.jpg> 324 free/ad-free apps
>>
>> What did I do wrong (given that over 300 similar apps seems like a lot)?
>
> You used App Finder, rather than just use the Play Store search, which
> is what I did on my cellphone.

Hi Jeff,

It's always good to learn from you as you've helped me in the past too.

Yes. The Skyica App finder, which is free for me, is the best app search
engine on the planet, bar none - it has the best filters by far of all.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=scadica.aq>

I'm not sure if it's free for everyone as I use a special build.

> What is interesting about the Play Store
> search is that even if you use "solitaire klondike free no ads" or
> similar wording you get lots of results. It's only when you look at the
> one and two star reviews you find they're *not* ad free at all!

You'd think Google would know a thing or two about search engines, right?
There's a reason the Google Play Store search is almost totally useless.

You leave a lot of money on the table when you don't know what's free,
ad free, in-app purchase free, etc., which Skyica app finder gives you.

> For
> example, you'll find many reviews complaining that the incidence of ads
> for that app have increased with the latest update. To do that, though,
> you'll have to look at "all reviews", and change from "relevance" to
> "most recent".

Yes. The sleazy companies play tricks to get those ads to your phone.
There are lot of tricks they are using - but most ads are easily blocked.

But I wouldn't know much about that as I never see ads on my phones.

> What is really strange is if you look at
> <https://play.google.com/store/search?q=solitaire+no+ads+free+offline&c=apps>
> in your PC's browser (I've no idea what a cellphone browser shows),
> you'll find only four hits.

While the companies often have "mobile" sites (e.g., m.domain.name), they
"should" show the same information - perhaps in an abbreviated format.

> Now change the search to
> <https://play.google.com/store/search?q=solitaire%20klondike%20no%20ads%20free%20offline&c=apps>.
> In other words add another limitation by using "klondike" as a required
> search term. Mysteriously, you'll now find 30 hits!

Each search engine works in its own mysterious ways but if you added a
"plus sign" to each of those terms, it should reduce spurious hits.

FROM: solitaire klondike no ads free offline
TO: +solitaire +klondike +"no ads" +free +offline

But I didn't test it because I have Skyica App Finder installed.
I just click the button for "free" and the one for "no ads".
If desired, I click the one for "no in-app purchases" too.

>> BTW, the number two app, ranked by the default sort, was the one you're
>> using by "Potato Jam" so you picked a good app it seems.
>
> Yes, I've always appreciated its simple interface. What I don't like is
> the way that it automatically hides the android system buttons even when
> working correctly, and I've not found a way (other than by using the
> app's menu) to get them back.

Oh, you hit another pet peeve of mine - when an app hides Android's
interface. Now you're making me mad! :)

I especially dislike when they hide the Android navigation buttons simply
by changing the color of the bottom of the screen to white so they're
nearly invisible even though they're there so you can't swipe around to get
them back because they're already there - just hidden behind the curtains.

> The F-Droid alternative I've installed has a few more solitaire games,
> including "Freecell" which I first played on a Windows NT4 PC around 30
> years ago!

Well, you have 300 free ad-free in-app-purchase free apps with Solitaire in
the name to choose from, so you should find a couple in that list you like.

Good luck.

If you install the Skyica App finder, let me know if it's free for you.
(Mine is a special build which isn't generally available to the public.)
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=scadica.aq>

Arno Welzel wrote on Fri, 12 Jul 2024 15:37:14 +0200 :

> Apps can just be published without any test at all. Google only checks
> for known malicious elements with automated tests and blocks apps which
> are considedered to be harmful.
> But testing with real devices and different Android versions is still
> the responsibility of the publisher. You may just have bad luck since
> Xiaomi also implements their own UI including changing the behaviour of
> the graphics output (e.g. custom "dark mode" even for apps which do not
> support that etc.). Maybe this causes some problems with that game.
>
> You can report this to the publisher - maybe they will provide an update
> to fix this. However if no one ever reports issues like this, they will
> never get fixed.

Arno and Andy know a lot more than I ever will about Android, so I will
defer to them - but there is on-device scanning also that Google does.

As I recall, every app that is installed, no matter how it's installed and
nor matter where it came from, is scanned by default upon installation.

This is, of course, with the default Google Play Store client settings,
even though the app may have nothing whatsoever to do with the Play Store.

In addition, once a day, by default, it's my understanding that Google
scans again every app on your device for malicious signatures.

We could dig up more if people are interested - although we've covered this
a few times in the past - so I'm confident those statements above are true.

But, as Arno mentioned also - these scans are only malware signature scans.

On 10/07/2024 09:05, Jeff Layman wrote:

> I can't believe that this update was properly tested before release,
> unless for some reason it's only my phone it doesn't like.

Thanks for all the interesting and informative comments. I think I'll
wait a bit longer before installing updates in future and read some very
recent reviews before I do!

--
Jeff

Jeff Layman wrote on Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:17:24 +0100 :

> Thanks for all the interesting and informative comments. I think I'll
> wait a bit longer before installing updates in future and read some very
> recent reviews before I do!

While the Google Play Store app can be set up to update apps automatically,
and, while there are plenty of good app updaters that do a much better job
<https://github.com/ImranR98/Obtainium>
<https://github.com/rumboalla/apkupdater>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=pratham.bkm.appupdatechecker>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.inspirezone.updatesoftwarechecker>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pnixo.softwareupdater.appcheckert>

I prefer to update apps manually, and only when I already know there is a
reason I'd want the update (e.g., the recent NewPipe update two days ago).

Note that Google autoupdates each month every Android 10+ phone on the
Internet forever (i.e., no EOL date set) for over two dozen core modules.

This automatic core update for billions of Android phones, most of which
are no longer fully supported by their OEMs, happens perfectly seamlessly.

It's such a seamless update, the vast majority of Android owners don't even
know it's happening every month that their phone core packages are updated.
<https://www.androidheadlines.com/2022/01/google-monthly-changelog-play-system-updates.html>

On 13/07/2024 19:17, Andrew wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote on Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:17:24 +0100 :
>
>> Thanks for all the interesting and informative comments. I think I'll
>> wait a bit longer before installing updates in future and read some very
>> recent reviews before I do!
>
> While the Google Play Store app can be set up to update apps automatically,
> and, while there are plenty of good app updaters that do a much better job
> <https://github.com/ImranR98/Obtainium>
> <https://github.com/rumboalla/apkupdater>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=pratham.bkm.appupdatechecker>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.inspirezone.updatesoftwarechecker>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pnixo.softwareupdater.appcheckert>
>
> I prefer to update apps manually, and only when I already know there is a
> reason I'd want the update (e.g., the recent NewPipe update two days ago).
>
> Note that Google autoupdates each month every Android 10+ phone on the
> Internet forever (i.e., no EOL date set) for over two dozen core modules.
>
> This automatic core update for billions of Android phones, most of which
> are no longer fully supported by their OEMs, happens perfectly seamlessly.
>
> It's such a seamless update, the vast majority of Android owners don't even
> know it's happening every month that their phone core packages are updated.
> <https://www.androidheadlines.com/2022/01/google-monthly-changelog-play-system-updates.html>

That's an interesting page.

Firstly, I assume the phone user "pays" for the update in terms of MB or
GB downloaded. If the user is on a very limited contract (5GB/month or
perhaps even less for a very low-usage contract), then the update might
amount to a large fraction of the allowance. I wonder what happens if
the allowance runs out halfway through an update? The user might also
find something critical they want to use is denied (eg deactivate a
stolen credit card via a bank app) because all the allowance has been
used the previous day without their knowledge!

I see that the update goes unnoticed, but the installation is only
completed when the user reboots the device. I wonder how many actually
do that, or is the phone effectively deactivated until the user reboots
it? Is there some sort of message displayed to that effect? I ask
because with my Xiaomi, automatic system updates are turned off. I get a
notice that a system update is available (or I used to as I'm now out of
the MIUI update period. The OS is MIUI 14.0.5 based on Android 13, and
from what I've read MIUI is now defunct as it's been superseded by
Xiaomi's HyperOS). From what I remember these updates could be in the
1GB+ range.

Does the update come through the Play Store? Although it's an update to
the Google Play System, it doesn't state explicitly that it comes via
the Play Store. Or does it come through the OEM?

Like you, I have all automatic updates turned off, whether system or
otherwise. In fact, a lot of the bloatware crap which came with the
phone has never been updated. Other than with adb, most of the junk is
uninstallable anyway, but I just ignore it.

I see that this is where the latest update info is provided:
<https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/14343500>

--
Jeff

Andrew, 2024-07-12 16:09:

> Arno Welzel wrote on Fri, 12 Jul 2024 15:37:14 +0200 :
>
>> Apps can just be published without any test at all. Google only checks
>> for known malicious elements with automated tests and blocks apps which
>> are considedered to be harmful.
>> But testing with real devices and different Android versions is still
>> the responsibility of the publisher. You may just have bad luck since
>> Xiaomi also implements their own UI including changing the behaviour of
>> the graphics output (e.g. custom "dark mode" even for apps which do not
>> support that etc.). Maybe this causes some problems with that game.
>>
>> You can report this to the publisher - maybe they will provide an update
>> to fix this. However if no one ever reports issues like this, they will
>> never get fixed.
>
> Arno and Andy know a lot more than I ever will about Android, so I will
> defer to them - but there is on-device scanning also that Google does.
>
> As I recall, every app that is installed, no matter how it's installed and
> nor matter where it came from, is scanned by default upon installation.

Correct - this is the kind of virus scanner provided by Google Play
Services. If an app is found to be a known malware, the user will be
informed about this.

> This is, of course, with the default Google Play Store client settings,
> even though the app may have nothing whatsoever to do with the Play Store.
>
> In addition, once a day, by default, it's my understanding that Google
> scans again every app on your device for malicious signatures.

Correct.

> But, as Arno mentioned also - these scans are only malware signature scans.

Correct.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Andrew, 2024-07-13 20:17:

> Jeff Layman wrote on Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:17:24 +0100 :
>
>> Thanks for all the interesting and informative comments. I think I'll
>> wait a bit longer before installing updates in future and read some very
>> recent reviews before I do!
>
> While the Google Play Store app can be set up to update apps automatically,
> and, while there are plenty of good app updaters that do a much better job
> <https://github.com/ImranR98/Obtainium>
> <https://github.com/rumboalla/apkupdater>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=pratham.bkm.appupdatechecker>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.inspirezone.updatesoftwarechecker>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pnixo.softwareupdater.appcheckert>
>
> I prefer to update apps manually, and only when I already know there is a
> reason I'd want the update (e.g., the recent NewPipe update two days ago).

Yes, that's why you can configure Google Play *NOT* to install updates
without asking you.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Jeff Layman wrote on Sun, 14 Jul 2024 09:20:25 +0100 :

>> It's such a seamless update, the vast majority of Android owners don't even
>> know it's happening every month that their phone core packages are updated.
>> <https://www.androidheadlines.com/2022/01/google-monthly-changelog-play-system-updates.html>
>
> That's an interesting page.

Since Android 10, Google has been steadily increasing the number of
packages which are updated monthly forever for all Android phones.

> Firstly, I assume the phone user "pays" for the update in terms of MB or
> GB downloaded. If the user is on a very limited contract (5GB/month or
> perhaps even less for a very low-usage contract), then the update might
> amount to a large fraction of the allowance. I wonder what happens if
> the allowance runs out halfway through an update? The user might also
> find something critical they want to use is denied (eg deactivate a
> stolen credit card via a bank app) because all the allowance has been
> used the previous day without their knowledge!

Good question. I don't have a Google Play Store client app on my unrootable
Android in my user partition but there might be a WiFi-only setting maybe?

> I see that the update goes unnoticed, but the installation is only
> completed when the user reboots the device. I wonder how many actually
> do that, or is the phone effectively deactivated until the user reboots
> it?

I don't know but it's commonly accepted you should reboot every once in a
while. I generally reboot about weekly but I do it only as I think of it.

> Is there some sort of message displayed to that effect? I ask
> because with my Xiaomi, automatic system updates are turned off. I get a
> notice that a system update is available (or I used to as I'm now out of
> the MIUI update period. The OS is MIUI 14.0.5 based on Android 13, and
> from what I've read MIUI is now defunct as it's been superseded by
> Xiaomi's HyperOS). From what I remember these updates could be in the
> 1GB+ range.

I don't think you get a message when Project Mainline (since renamed by
Google) has updated but we discussed this in the past so I'd have to look.

> Does the update come through the Play Store? Although it's an update to
> the Google Play System, it doesn't state explicitly that it comes via
> the Play Store. Or does it come through the OEM?

Good question. I'd ask Andy or Arno. I never thought of where the updated
packages come from (as there are more than two dozen in Android 14).

> Like you, I have all automatic updates turned off, whether system or
> otherwise. In fact, a lot of the bloatware crap which came with the
> phone has never been updated. Other than with adb, most of the junk is
> uninstallable anyway, but I just ignore it.

Yeah, I try not to update unless I know what I want updated, but the
Project Mainline stuff updates whether or not you ask it to, I think.

> I see that this is where the latest update info is provided:
> <https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/14343500>

I think that link answers one of your questions, which is how you know
you've been updated. I would guess you have the version they say there.

Arno Welzel wrote on Sun, 14 Jul 2024 15:28:51 +0200 :

>> I prefer to update apps manually, and only when I already know there is a
>> reason I'd want the update (e.g., the recent NewPipe update two days ago).
>
> Yes, that's why you can configure Google Play *NOT* to install updates
> without asking you.

Arno is correct, where the Google Play Store isn't even a required package.
Mine is uninstalled for example, even though my phone is unrootable.

I'm not sure how (or if) the Project Mainline updates are happening for me
though, since the Google Play Store is not installed in the user partition.

Andrew, 2024-07-15 01:27:

> Arno Welzel wrote on Sun, 14 Jul 2024 15:28:51 +0200 :
>
>>> I prefer to update apps manually, and only when I already know there is a
>>> reason I'd want the update (e.g., the recent NewPipe update two days ago).
>>
>> Yes, that's why you can configure Google Play *NOT* to install updates
>> without asking you.
>
> Arno is correct, where the Google Play Store isn't even a required package.
> Mine is uninstalled for example, even though my phone is unrootable.
>
> I'm not sure how (or if) the Project Mainline updates are happening for me
> though, since the Google Play Store is not installed in the user partition.

I've been using a Google Pixel 6a for a while now. When I got it, it had
Android 13 and at some point I could install the update to Android 14.
But I never experienced any unattended updates without my consent. All
system updates and also app updates in Google Play have to be confirmed
before they get installed.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

On 15/07/2024 00:27, Andrew wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote on Sun, 14 Jul 2024 09:20:25 +0100 :

>> Does the update come through the Play Store? Although it's an update to
>> the Google Play System, it doesn't state explicitly that it comes via
>> the Play Store. Or does it come through the OEM?
>
> Good question. I'd ask Andy or Arno. I never thought of where the updated
> packages come from (as there are more than two dozen in Android 14).

It took some time to find a statement, but at
<https://www.esper.io/blog/building-a-google-play-system-update-changelog>
it notes "Thanks to Project Mainline, Google is able to deliver updates
to core Android system components through the Play Store. These updates
— which are publicly referred to as Google Play System Updates — can fix
security issues or introduce new features, and they’re routinely
delivered to users on GMS Android devices running Android 10 and later."

So they do come through the Play Store. But as you've removed the Play
Store from your phone, but still get updates, that doesn't make sense.
Or perhaps the Play Store isn't just the Play Store we think it is... ;-)

Perhaps part of the answer is here
<https://x.com/MishaalRahman/status/1706051485623103675>
"Google System Updates are comprised of updates to the Google Play Store
app, the Google Play Services app, the Android WebView, and Project
Mainline modules (via Google Play System Updates).

....

While you can opt out of these, you'll still get system updates from
non-Google sources as well as app updates through Google Play*.
Furthermore, Google says automatic updates may still happen to address
severe security or safety issues or to comply with legal obligations."

* But /which/ "Google Play"?! We have Google Play Store, Google Play
Services, Google Play System, and non-Google sources. Almost looks like
it's been designed to confuse. Surely not...

> Yeah, I try not to update unless I know what I want updated, but the
> Project Mainline stuff updates whether or not you ask it to, I think.

See above. Perhaps security and safety issue updates can't be turned off.

>> I see that this is where the latest update info is provided:
>> <https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/14343500>
>
> I think that link answers one of your questions, which is how you know
> you've been updated. I would guess you have the version they say there.

I should read my own links properly! :-)

Yes, the versions I can find in "Settings" by digging down into the app
menus are pretty much the latest as shown in the links. I'll try to
avoid doing any updates in the next couple of weeks and see if the
version change anyway. That will mean an automatic update has taken place.

--
Jeff

On 15/07/2024 08:20, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Andrew, 2024-07-15 01:27:
>
>> Arno Welzel wrote on Sun, 14 Jul 2024 15:28:51 +0200 :
>>
>>>> I prefer to update apps manually, and only when I already know there is a
>>>> reason I'd want the update (e.g., the recent NewPipe update two days ago).
>>>
>>> Yes, that's why you can configure Google Play *NOT* to install updates
>>> without asking you.
>>
>> Arno is correct, where the Google Play Store isn't even a required package.
>> Mine is uninstalled for example, even though my phone is unrootable.
>>
>> I'm not sure how (or if) the Project Mainline updates are happening for me
>> though, since the Google Play Store is not installed in the user partition.
>
> I've been using a Google Pixel 6a for a while now. When I got it, it had
> Android 13 and at some point I could install the update to Android 14.
> But I never experienced any unattended updates without my consent. All
> system updates and also app updates in Google Play have to be confirmed
> before they get installed.

As I posted above, I'm going to check the versions at
<https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/14343500> but
/not/ manually update anything over the next couple of weeks, and then
see if my phone has the very latest versions or not. If it has, it means
the updates have taken place automatically. I assume from your comment
above that this doesn't happen with your Pixel 6a.

--
Jeff

Jeff Layman wrote on Mon, 15 Jul 2024 09:10:05 +0100 :

>> I've been using a Google Pixel 6a for a while now. When I got it, it had
>> Android 13 and at some point I could install the update to Android 14.
>> But I never experienced any unattended updates without my consent. All
>> system updates and also app updates in Google Play have to be confirmed
>> before they get installed.
>
> As I posted above, I'm going to check the versions at
> <https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/14343500> but
> /not/ manually update anything over the next couple of weeks, and then
> see if my phone has the very latest versions or not. If it has, it means
> the updates have taken place automatically. I assume from your comment
> above that this doesn't happen with your Pixel 6a.

I think what Arno & Jeff said is good information because my point about
Project Mainline updates is they're so seamless, people don't know they're
happening monthly (on Pixels) or slightly less often on other OEM brands.
<https://www.esper.io/blog/what-is-project-mainline>

As you can see here, the updates are downloaded, but the user isn't told
that they are waiting for a reboot - but they happen when the user reboots.
<https://bayton.org/android/gpsu-system-update/>

Also, while we've discussed Project Mainline a few times on this ng, most
people on this ng I believe are not aware that the concept even exists that
Google is updating dozens of core packages monthly for Android 10+ forever.
<https://www.hexnode.com/blogs/android-project-mainline-everything-you-need-to-know/>

It's been that seamless since mainline started with Android 10.

Every subsequent version has been adding more & more mainline modules.
<https://www.xda-developers.com/bluetooth-ultra-wideband-mainline-modules-android-13/>

However, my phone is not set up by default in that I have the Google Play
Store deleted from the user partition so any test by me might not reflect
how things work for most people who leave the Android set up by defaults.

Hence, I think it's a great idea that Jeff will be checking his update
status, where here's a list of the core packages that are in Mainline.
<https://source.android.com/docs/core/ota/modular-system>

However, note that at least, you can manually update them at will.
<https://bayton.org/android/gpsu-system-update/>
Google Play System updates (Mainline)
Google Play System updates (also called Mainline updates)
are automatically downloaded but require a device reboot to be installed.
These updates won't trigger an automatic reboot and instead they are
installed on the next user, admin, or policy initiated reboot.
Reboots triggered by system update policy will install the
associated Google/OEM system update and any previously downloaded
Google Play System updates.
Google Play System updates can also be manually installed by navigating
to Settings > About > Android Version > Google Play system update.

Jeff Layman wrote on Mon, 15 Jul 2024 08:41:14 +0100 :

>> Jeff Layman wrote on Sun, 14 Jul 2024 09:20:25 +0100 :
>
>>> Does the update come through the Play Store? Although it's an update to
>>> the Google Play System, it doesn't state explicitly that it comes via
>>> the Play Store. Or does it come through the OEM?
>>
>> Good question. I'd ask Andy or Arno. I never thought of where the updated
>> packages come from (as there are more than two dozen in Android 14).
>
> It took some time to find a statement, but at
> <https://www.esper.io/blog/building-a-google-play-system-update-changelog>
> it notes "Thanks to Project Mainline, Google is able to deliver updates
> to core Android system components through the Play Store. These updates
> - which are publicly referred to as Google Play System Updates - can fix
> security issues or introduce new features, and they're routinely
> delivered to users on GMS Android devices running Android 10 and later."
>
> So they do come through the Play Store. But as you've removed the Play
> Store from your phone, but still get updates, that doesn't make sense.
> Or perhaps the Play Store isn't just the Play Store we think it is... ;-)

While I've deleted the Google Play Store package from my user partition,
for years I simply didn't log into the Google Play Store package (because I
couldn't log into it as I have no Google Account on my phone set up).

Even so, the Google Play Store *settings* still allowed updating of apps,
so my point of saying this is that the thing we refer to as the "Google
Play Store" app is a complicated beast that isn't like a normal app is.
> Perhaps part of the answer is here
> <https://x.com/MishaalRahman/status/1706051485623103675>
> "Google System Updates are comprised of updates to the Google Play Store
> app, the Google Play Services app, the Android WebView, and Project
> Mainline modules (via Google Play System Updates).

Personally, I think the project mainline (since renamed by Google) packages
are updated independent of the Google Play Store, but rest assured there
are a LOT of update mechanisms on Android as we've covered this before.
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/search?q=mainline>

> While you can opt out of these, you'll still get system updates from
> non-Google sources as well as app updates through Google Play*.
> Furthermore, Google says automatic updates may still happen to address
> severe security or safety issues or to comply with legal obligations."

Andy and I, long ago, listed all the key update mechanisms, where it's
complicated since almost all of Android is updated silently, in layers.
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/search?q=%22google%20play%20system%20update%22>

> * But /which/ "Google Play"?! We have Google Play Store, Google Play
> Services, Google Play System, and non-Google sources. Almost looks like
> it's been designed to confuse. Surely not...

Yup. Google, like many companies, let the developers name things until they
become mainstream and then marketing takes over with brand name recognition
where Google marketing has decided people recognize the "Google Play" TM.

As Andy & I have discussed many times, there are many different things
which start with the name "Google Play" on Android phones lately.
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/search?q=%22google%20play%20store%20update%22>

>> Yeah, I try not to update unless I know what I want updated, but the
>> Project Mainline stuff updates whether or not you ask it to, I think.
>
> See above. Perhaps security and safety issue updates can't be turned off.

Android updates in mysterious layers - most of which are seamless to us.
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/search?q=%22seamless%20update%22>

>>> I see that this is where the latest update info is provided:
>>> <https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/14343500>
>>
>> I think that link answers one of your questions, which is how you know
>> you've been updated. I would guess you have the version they say there.
>
> I should read my own links properly! :-)
>
> Yes, the versions I can find in "Settings" by digging down into the app
> menus are pretty much the latest as shown in the links. I'll try to
> avoid doing any updates in the next couple of weeks and see if the
> version change anyway. That will mean an automatic update has taken place.

Given we know every Project Mainline package in any given Android release,
I recommend Muntashirakon App Manager to get the version of those packages.

Jeff Layman quoted:

> "Thanks to Project Mainline, Google is able to deliver updates to core
> Android system components through the Play Store. These updates — which
> are publicly referred to as Google Play System Updates — can fix
> security issues or introduce new features, and they’re routinely
> delivered to users on GMS Android devices running Android 10 and later."

I believe that is how the recent updates for Google's Find My Device
were rolled-out?

Can you downgrade?

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I've been playing Solitaire Klondike ad free on my Xiaomi Redmi Note 10
> for almost 3 years. It's an old app and there have been no updates until
> today, when one came through (for compatibility with Android 13 IIRC).
> I've been on 13 for some time, but thought it might be worth updating
> the app in case other changes had been made. So against my better
> judgement I installed the update.

> On running, it locked the phone up with a green screen (the app
> background colour - baize green), instead of advancing to the card
> layout. Even when working with the previous version the app hadn't, by
> design, shown the system buttons at the bottom of the screen. In the end
> I had to reboot the phone to get back control. I uninstalled and
> reinstalled the app and tried again with the same result. I did find
> that after several attempts swiping up on the green screen would show
> the system buttons for a few seconds, and I could get back to the
> phone's main screen. I've uninstalled the app.

> I can't believe that this update was properly tested before release,
> unless for some reason it's only my phone it doesn't like.

--
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