On 2024-07-09 03:05, Daniel70 wrote:
> Alan wrote on 9/7/24 3:50 am:
>> On 2024-07-02 01:45, Daniel70 wrote:
>>> Alan wrote on 2/7/24 3:00 pm:
>>>> On 2024-07-01 20:36, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2024 12:31:18 -0400, Larry Wolff
>>>>> <larrywolff@larrywolff.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/30/2024 8:49 AM, Kees Nuyt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You must be out of your mind to concern yourself with this
>>>>>>>> kind of thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill, you must be out of your mind to quote all 245 lines of
>>>>>>> Andrew's article to just add your 2 cents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a worthwhile privacy concern to think about which operating
>>>>>> systems are designed to require logging into the maker's servers
>>>>>> for most of the vital essential services that comprise the core
>>>>>> of the operating system.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not just a privacy concern.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point about laptop computers is that they are *portable*. You
>>>>> can take them to meetings at remote locations where there is no
>>>>> internet access. You can take them to libraries and archives to do
>>>>> research. You can use them (for a while) if the mains electricity
>>>>> goes off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Being tethered to the mothership means that portable computers
>>>>> cease to be portable and are forced to be, well, tethered.
>>>>
>>>> Ummmm...
>>>>
>>>> I've had Mac laptops for more than 30 years.
>>>>
>>>> I've never been tethered.
>>>>
>>> .... except by the Wi-Fi or USB Dongle that you use to get your
>>> signal out of your Mac laptops to where ever they are distend.
>>>
>>> Otherwise the signal would NEVER have left your Mac laptop.
>>
>> But that is no more and no less "tethered" than any other personal
>> computer using any operating system.
>
> Sorry! Are we talking at different things??

Probably.

>
> Currently, this Laptop uses its Wi-Fi to connect to a Box at the end of
> my Landline Phone-line. If I were to take the Laptop to a Coffee-Bar,
> the Wi-Fi would not work .... unless the Coffee-Bar offered Public Wi-Fi
> .... but I'd have to obtain the Coffee-Bar Wi-Fi Password first.

Yes. And?

>
> Previously, I had a Dongle that I'd plug into a USB socket on this same
> Laptop and, as long as I was with-in 'sight' of a Telco Antenna, I could
> talk to the world.

OK. And?

Could you not get such a dongle for a Mac laptop. (Hint: I know you can).

>
> In either case, I considered that I WAS Tethered! Maybe not by a
> physical wire, but Tethered none the less.
>
> Are we talking at different things??

Definitely.

This alleged "tethering" was about whether or not a Mac can be used
without signing in with an AppleID.

I'm here to tell you, it most definitely can.

On 2024-07-08 19:17, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 10:54:12 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-06-30 09:31, Larry Wolff wrote:
>
>>> It's a worthwhile privacy concern to think about which operating systems
>>> are designed to require logging into the maker's servers for most of the
>>> vital essential services that comprise the core of the operating system.
>>
>> What "vital essential services" would those be?
>
> My concerns are not so much "privacy" as working.
>
> "Vital essential services" would be things like saving your work,

Which works fine saving to the local drive.

> accessing your data on a laptop when away from home or in any other
> circumstances where an internet connection is not available.

Which works fine as previously stated.

You CAN make use of cloud services on a Mac if you choose to do so.

Off the top of my head:

Contacts
Calendar
To do list
Notes
Photos
....
..
..
..

....and a plethora more.

But none are mandatory to use the computer.

I like having my data synchronized between my computer and my phone and
tablet, so I make use of them, but if one chooses to, you can perform
that synchronization for much of it by plugging the iOS devices into the
computer.

So anyone who doesn't want to use those services can operate their
devices just as well (absent the cloud synching of course).

On Tue, 09 Jul 2024 04:17:19 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:

>>What "vital essential services" would those be?
>
> My concerns are not so much "privacy" as working.
>
> "Vital essential services" would be things like saving your work,
> accessing your data on a laptop when away from home or in any other
> circumstances where an internet connection is not available.

The problem with the design of the entire Apple ecosystem (which is
different from Windows & Linux & Android) is that you stop logging into the
Apple servers, the entire ecosystem stops working the way it's designed.

Very few companies other than Apple can convince dumb users that their
devices stop working when you're no longer on the Internet is a good thing.

HP certainly can't.
https://boingboing.net/2024/07/09/hp-will-no-longer-sell-printers-that-require-online-connection.html

"HP has finally been forced to discontinue its cheaper e-series LaserJet
printers due to customers experiencing problems with their online-only and
always tied to HP+ subscription requirements. Among other things, HP+
requires a permanent Internet connection, and customers only use
HP-original ink and toners, not allowing for third-party alternatives to be
used at all."

On 2024-07-09 09:30, Mickey D wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jul 2024 04:17:19 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>>> What "vital essential services" would those be?
>>
>> My concerns are not so much "privacy" as working.
>>
>> "Vital essential services" would be things like saving your work,
>> accessing your data on a laptop when away from home or in any other
>> circumstances where an internet connection is not available.
>
> The problem with the design of the entire Apple ecosystem (which is
> different from Windows & Linux & Android) is that you stop logging into the
> Apple servers, the entire ecosystem stops working the way it's designed.

Oh that is an EXCELLENT ATTEMPT to obfuscate.

>
> Very few companies other than Apple can convince dumb users that their
> devices stop working when you're no longer on the Internet is a good thing.

None of my devices stop working when I'm not on the internet, Arlen.

On Tue, 09 Jul 2024 06:05:20 -0400, Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
<snip>
> Previously, I had a Dongle that I'd plug into a USB socket on this same
> Laptop and, as long as I was with-in 'sight' of a Telco Antenna, I could
> talk to the world.
>
> In either case, I considered that I WAS Tethered! Maybe not by a
> physical wire, but Tethered none the less.
>
> Are we talking at different things??

Yes. You are talking about connected to the internet. Alan was talking about the
os using the internet to "phone home" to M$, Apple, or the linux distributor.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 20:05:20 +1000, Daniel70
<daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

>Alan wrote on 9/7/24 3:50 am:
>> On 2024-07-02 01:45, Daniel70 wrote:
>> But that is no more and no less "tethered" than any other personal
>> computer using any operating system.
>
>Sorry! Are we talking at different things??
>
>Currently, this Laptop uses its Wi-Fi to connect to a Box at the end of
>my Landline Phone-line. If I were to take the Laptop to a Coffee-Bar,
>the Wi-Fi would not work .... unless the Coffee-Bar offered Public Wi-Fi
>.... but I'd have to obtain the Coffee-Bar Wi-Fi Password first.
>
>Previously, I had a Dongle that I'd plug into a USB socket on this same
>Laptop and, as long as I was with-in 'sight' of a Telco Antenna, I could
>talk to the world.
>
>In either case, I considered that I WAS Tethered! Maybe not by a
>physical wire, but Tethered none the less.
>
>Are we talking at different things??

Yes, we are talking about different things.

We are talking about computers that are no longer computers, but are
being turned into dumb terminals because they will not perform
functions that a stand-alone computer normall performs, like saving a
document, without being tethered, not merely to the Internet, but to a
particular site on the internet owned by the vendor of the computer's
operating system - like asn Apple computer not working unless it is
linked to the Apple company's web site, or a Microsoft computer not
working unless it is linked to the Microsoft company's web site.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 09:23:37 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>On 2024-07-08 19:17, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 10:54:12 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-06-30 09:31, Larry Wolff wrote:
>>
>>>> It's a worthwhile privacy concern to think about which operating systems
>>>> are designed to require logging into the maker's servers for most of the
>>>> vital essential services that comprise the core of the operating system.
>>>
>>> What "vital essential services" would those be?
>>
>> My concerns are not so much "privacy" as working.
>>
>> "Vital essential services" would be things like saving your work,
>
>Which works fine saving to the local drive.
>
>> accessing your data on a laptop when away from home or in any other
>> circumstances where an internet connection is not available.
>
>Which works fine as previously stated.
>
>You CAN make use of cloud services on a Mac if you choose to do so.
>
>Off the top of my head:

But you have just yourself pointed out that a system with a Mac OS is
an Apple system.

If it is an Apple system, then in my understabnding of logic, it
cannot be non-Apple system. Check the subject line -- we are talking
here about *non-Apple* systems.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 2024-07-09 20:15, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 20:05:20 +1000, Daniel70
> <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>> Alan wrote on 9/7/24 3:50 am:
>>> On 2024-07-02 01:45, Daniel70 wrote:
>
>>> But that is no more and no less "tethered" than any other personal
>>> computer using any operating system.
>>
>> Sorry! Are we talking at different things??
>>
>> Currently, this Laptop uses its Wi-Fi to connect to a Box at the end of
>> my Landline Phone-line. If I were to take the Laptop to a Coffee-Bar,
>> the Wi-Fi would not work .... unless the Coffee-Bar offered Public Wi-Fi
>> .... but I'd have to obtain the Coffee-Bar Wi-Fi Password first.
>>
>> Previously, I had a Dongle that I'd plug into a USB socket on this same
>> Laptop and, as long as I was with-in 'sight' of a Telco Antenna, I could
>> talk to the world.
>>
>> In either case, I considered that I WAS Tethered! Maybe not by a
>> physical wire, but Tethered none the less.
>>
>> Are we talking at different things??
>
> Yes, we are talking about different things.
>
> We are talking about computers that are no longer computers, but are
> being turned into dumb terminals because they will not perform
> functions that a stand-alone computer normall performs, like saving a
> document, without being tethered, not merely to the Internet, but to a
> particular site on the internet owned by the vendor of the computer's
> operating system - like asn Apple computer not working unless it is
> linked to the Apple company's web site, or a Microsoft computer not
> working unless it is linked to the Microsoft company's web site.

There is no Apple computer or device made today that has that problem.

On 2024-07-09 20:20, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 09:23:37 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-07-08 19:17, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 10:54:12 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-06-30 09:31, Larry Wolff wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It's a worthwhile privacy concern to think about which operating systems
>>>>> are designed to require logging into the maker's servers for most of the
>>>>> vital essential services that comprise the core of the operating system.
>>>>
>>>> What "vital essential services" would those be?
>>>
>>> My concerns are not so much "privacy" as working.
>>>
>>> "Vital essential services" would be things like saving your work,
>>
>> Which works fine saving to the local drive.
>>
>>> accessing your data on a laptop when away from home or in any other
>>> circumstances where an internet connection is not available.
>>
>> Which works fine as previously stated.
>>
>> You CAN make use of cloud services on a Mac if you choose to do so.
>>
>> Off the top of my head:
>
> But you have just yourself pointed out that a system with a Mac OS is
> an Apple system.

Indeed.

>
> If it is an Apple system, then in my understabnding of logic, it
> cannot be non-Apple system. Check the subject line -- we are talking
> here about *non-Apple* systems.

Because the OP implies that Apple systems won't work well without
logging into Apple's servers...

....and that's bullshit.

On 7/9/2024 11:37 PM, Alan wrote:

>> If it is an Apple system, then in my understabnding of logic, it
>> cannot be non-Apple system. Check the subject line -- we are talking
>> here about *non-Apple* systems.
>
> Because the OP implies that Apple systems won't work well without
> logging into Apple's servers...
>
> ...and that's bullshit.

How do iPhone owners install apps without logging into Apple servers?
How do they even set up the iPhone without creating an iCloud account?

Steve Hayes wrote on Wed, 10 Jul 2024 05:15:19 +0200 :

>>Are we talking at different things??
>
> Yes, we are talking about different things.
>
> We are talking about computers that are no longer computers, but are
> being turned into dumb terminals because they will not perform
> functions that a stand-alone computer normall performs, like saving a
> document, without being tethered, not merely to the Internet, but to a
> particular site on the internet owned by the vendor of the computer's
> operating system - like asn Apple computer not working unless it is
> linked to the Apple company's web site, or a Microsoft computer not
> working unless it is linked to the Microsoft company's web site.

While this thread is specifically NOT about the dumb-terminal design of
Apple systems, it's well known to everyone that if you don't log into the
Apple servers every moment of every day of the rest of your life, all the
"walled-garden" stuff Apple users crow about, suddenly stops working.

Ask me how I know this (see images in the original post proving it).

It needs to be stated that this Alan Baker guy is what most of us would
refer to as a strange Apple religious fundamentalist zealot, who feels his
only value in life is to defend Apple to the death, no matter what.

He doesn't even realize he had to log into Apple servers on the Internet
just to create the AppleID which is an Internet requirement that is found
on no other common consumer operating system.

Once he has that Apple ID on the Internet, he doesn't realize all his apps
are tied specifically to that unique Apple ID such that no app installer
can be copied to another device (that doesn't have his unique Apple ID).

Again, that every app (even free apps) are locked to his specific ID is a
requirement that is found on no other common consumer operating system.

Once he installs that app, which is locked to his Apple ID, if that app is
a key component of the infamous walled garden (such as Messages or
Facetime), then again he has to log into *another* Apple server on the
Internet to use all the features of the walled garden he crows about.

It's well known that I have many Apple products where I specifically
decided to NOT log into the Apple Internet servers, where Apple
unilaterally bricks your login after about two years (twice!), and then,
you have to literally visit an Apple store, in person, where they literally
copy down your government ID (Apple's policy, as stated to me by Apple, is
that you MUST show your government ID - nothing else is acceptable), and
then, and only then, will Apple unlock your ID that they bricked simply
because you refused to log into it over time. (Again, see images posted.)

How's that for privacy!

In summary, while this thread is specifically NOT about the Apple
ecosystem, the idiocy spewed by Alan Baker requires that it be openly
stated that no other common consumer operating system requires that you
create, maintain and constantly log into the mothership tracking servers.

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 20:36:55 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>On 2024-07-09 20:15, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> We are talking about computers that are no longer computers, but are
>> being turned into dumb terminals because they will not perform
>> functions that a stand-alone computer normall performs, like saving a
>> document, without being tethered, not merely to the Internet, but to a
>> particular site on the internet owned by the vendor of the computer's
>> operating system - like asn Apple computer not working unless it is
>> linked to the Apple company's web site, or a Microsoft computer not
>> working unless it is linked to the Microsoft company's web site.
>
>There is no Apple computer or device made today that has that problem.

There is no Apple computer or device made today that has a non-Apple
common computer operating system.

Oh, I forgot Schrodinger's Apple OS.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 2024-07-10 01:15, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 20:36:55 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-07-09 20:15, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> We are talking about computers that are no longer computers, but are
>>> being turned into dumb terminals because they will not perform
>>> functions that a stand-alone computer normall performs, like saving a
>>> document, without being tethered, not merely to the Internet, but to a
>>> particular site on the internet owned by the vendor of the computer's
>>> operating system - like asn Apple computer not working unless it is
>>> linked to the Apple company's web site, or a Microsoft computer not
>>> working unless it is linked to the Microsoft company's web site.
>>
>> There is no Apple computer or device made today that has that problem.
>
> There is no Apple computer or device made today that has a non-Apple
> common computer operating system.
>
> Oh, I forgot Schrodinger's Apple OS.

The whole reason for this thread is for Arlen to imply that Apple's
devices need to be logged in.

On 2024-07-10 00:27, Andrew wrote:
> Steve Hayes wrote on Wed, 10 Jul 2024 05:15:19 +0200 :
>
>>> Are we talking at different things??
>>
>> Yes, we are talking about different things.
>>
>> We are talking about computers that are no longer computers, but are
>> being turned into dumb terminals because they will not perform
>> functions that a stand-alone computer normall performs, like saving a
>> document, without being tethered, not merely to the Internet, but to a
>> particular site on the internet owned by the vendor of the computer's
>> operating system - like asn Apple computer not working unless it is
>> linked to the Apple company's web site, or a Microsoft computer not
>> working unless it is linked to the Microsoft company's web site.
>
> While this thread is specifically NOT about the dumb-terminal design of
> Apple systems, it's well known to everyone that if you don't log into the
> Apple servers every moment of every day of the rest of your life, all the
> "walled-garden" stuff Apple users crow about, suddenly stops working.

Utterly false.

>
> Ask me how I know this (see images in the original post proving it).
>
> It needs to be stated that this Alan Baker guy is what most of us would
> refer to as a strange Apple religious fundamentalist zealot, who feels his
> only value in life is to defend Apple to the death, no matter what.
>
> He doesn't even realize he had to log into Apple servers on the Internet
> just to create the AppleID which is an Internet requirement that is found
> on no other common consumer operating system.
>
> Once he has that Apple ID on the Internet, he doesn't realize all his apps
> are tied specifically to that unique Apple ID such that no app installer
> can be copied to another device (that doesn't have his unique Apple ID).
>
> Again, that every app (even free apps) are locked to his specific ID is a
> requirement that is found on no other common consumer operating system.

This is utterly false, inasmuch as Arlen is ignorant of the fact that
only iOS devices require you to use the app store.

> Once he installs that app, which is locked to his Apple ID, if that app is
> a key component of the infamous walled garden (such as Messages or
> Facetime), then again he has to log into *another* Apple server on the
> Internet to use all the features of the walled garden he crows about.

In order to use ANY service that transmit messages from one person to
another, you need to log in to identify yourself.

>
> It's well known that I have many Apple products where I specifically
> decided to NOT log into the Apple Internet servers, where Apple
> unilaterally bricks your login after about two years (twice!), and then,

He's simply lying.

On 2024-07-10 00:16, Larry Wolff wrote:
> On 7/9/2024 11:37 PM, Alan wrote:
>
>>> If it is an Apple system, then in my understabnding of logic, it
>>> cannot be non-Apple system. Check the subject line -- we are talking
>>> here about *non-Apple* systems.
>>
>> Because the OP implies that Apple systems won't work well without
>> logging into Apple's servers...
>>
>> ...and that's bullshit.
>
> How do iPhone owners install apps without logging into Apple servers?

Are iPhones all that Apple sells?

The OP troll is insisting that you can't do anything without logging in
to an AppleID and you most certainly can use a Mac without ever even
HAVING an AppleID.

Second of all, yes: on an iOS device, you need your AppleID when you
want to download apps.

That is the only time you NEED to use it. Period.

> How do they even set up the iPhone without creating an iCloud account?

First of all, get your terms right.

It's not an "iCloud account". You create an "AppleID".

Next, while you will need one for an iOS device, it requires no personal
information to be made public, and only minimal information you must
share with Apple to create it.

I just tested what information you have to provide Apple to set up an
new AppleID:

Date of birth (which you can lie about)

Phone number for a text confirmation code.

That's it.

So it's quite the tempest in a teapot, isn't it?