Hi folks -

New here. I've perused some posts and haven't seen a posting FAQ for
this NG. I'm learning python right now to realize some hobby goals I
have regarding some smolnet services. What are the NG standards on
pasting code in messages? Do yall prefer I post a pastebin link if it's
over a certain number of lines? I know this isn't IRC - just asking.

Daniel

On 2024-08-20 23:26, Daniel via Python-list wrote:
> Hi folks -
>
> New here. I've perused some posts and haven't seen a posting FAQ for
> this NG. I'm learning python right now to realize some hobby goals I
> have regarding some smolnet services. What are the NG standards on
> pasting code in messages? Do yall prefer I post a pastebin link if it's
> over a certain number of lines? I know this isn't IRC - just asking.
>
You'll find it rather quiet here because most activity has moved to here:

https://discuss.python.org/

Daniel <me@sc1f1dan.com> wrote or quoted:
> Do yall prefer I post a pastebin link if it's
>over a certain number of lines?

So, I'm not down with that kind of media mismatch!
When an OP expects me to scope out some rando website,
I'm fixin' to ghost them.

If your source code's a total drag, you oughta cook up
a minimal working example. That'll juice your chances of
snagging some gnarly answers . . .

MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote or quoted:
>You'll find it rather quiet here because most activity has moved to here:

So, what's the deal? Why're you still trippin' on Usenet?
To smoke out the last few Newbies? Why don't you just
bounce back to your janky website and call it wrapped?

On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 23:26:39 +0100, Daniel wrote:

> New here. I've perused some posts and haven't seen a posting FAQ for
> this NG. I'm learning python right now to realize some hobby goals I
> have regarding some smolnet services. What are the NG standards on
> pasting code in messages? Do yall prefer I post a pastebin link if it's
> over a certain number of lines? I know this isn't IRC - just asking.

<snark>
Standards? This is usenet, the last remaining wild west. Good news: c.l.p
isn't overrun by trolls. Bad news: c.l.p doesn't seem to be overrun by
much of anybody.
</snark>

smolnet, as in things like

https://small-tech.org/

Python certainly has the tools. You can even construct a web server on a
Raspberry Pi Pico but I don't know any specifics about smolnet. The
subreddit seems dead and I don't see anything but a few obscure github
references.

Matthew,

It hasn't been THAT quiet here and I have not heard suggestions this group
is going away.

I did look at the online forum and at first was annoyed as I do not want to
periodically log into various websites and prefer things to be consolidated
in my email. But, it seems you can turn on email to selectively send things
so it is also a mailing list.

I am guessing one difference may be that it is not gatewayed to old
newsgroups that periodically bring in folks who have disrupted. Another may
be the level of moderation of messages that may help keep it more civil or
even on-topic.

I do wonder if the people at python.org want multiple forums. There is also
one that sort of tutors people that obviously has an overlapping but
different audience.

Avi
-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail.com@python.org> On
Behalf Of MRAB via Python-list
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2024 7:12 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: new here

On 2024-08-20 23:26, Daniel via Python-list wrote:
> Hi folks -
>
> New here. I've perused some posts and haven't seen a posting FAQ for
> this NG. I'm learning python right now to realize some hobby goals I
> have regarding some smolnet services. What are the NG standards on
> pasting code in messages? Do yall prefer I post a pastebin link if it's
> over a certain number of lines? I know this isn't IRC - just asking.
>
You'll find it rather quiet here because most activity has moved to here:

https://discuss.python.org/
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 23:16:48 -0400, avi.e.gross wrote:

> I do wonder if the people at python.org want multiple forums. There is
> also one that sort of tutors people that obviously has an overlapping
> but different audience.

https://realpython.com/

That's a mixed bag. Joining is $50 USD/month or $300/year but there are
also many tutorials that can be accessed for free. Personally I can't
justify the cost but it does add a community chat and Q&A with a 'Python
Expert'.

https://pycoders.com/

That's free and is more general information but some of the articles may
be pertinent.

@pycoders and @thepycoders on X tend to overlap the newsletter.

On 2024-08-20 at 23:16:48 -0400,
AVI GROSS via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:

> I do wonder if the people at python.org want multiple forums. There is
> also one that sort of tutors people that obviously has an overlapping
> but different audience.

$ python -m this
The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters
[...]
There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch.
[...]

On 21/08/24 10:26, Daniel via Python-list wrote:
> Hi folks -
>
> New here. I've perused some posts and haven't seen a posting FAQ for
> this NG. I'm learning python right now to realize some hobby goals I
> have regarding some smolnet services. What are the NG standards on
> pasting code in messages? Do yall prefer I post a pastebin link if it's
> over a certain number of lines? I know this isn't IRC - just asking.

Welcome Daniel!

Despite some seeming to think of sending you elsewhere, there are a
number of people 'here' who regularly volunteer their time to help others.

As with any interaction, the quality of information in the question
directly impacts what can be offered in-response.

More of us can help with (pure) Python questions. Moving into
specialised areas may reduce the number who feel competent to answer.

We'll value any contribution you may be able to offer, and will look
forward to hearing of the projects you attempt...

--
Regards,
=dn

dn <PythonList@DancesWithMice.info> writes:

> On 21/08/24 10:26, Daniel via Python-list wrote:
>> Hi folks -
>> New here. I've perused some posts and haven't seen a posting FAQ for
>> this NG. I'm learning python right now to realize some hobby goals I
>> have regarding some smolnet services. What are the NG standards on
>> pasting code in messages? Do yall prefer I post a pastebin link if it's
>> over a certain number of lines? I know this isn't IRC - just asking.
>
>
> Welcome Daniel!
>
> Despite some seeming to think of sending you elsewhere, there are a
> number of people 'here' who regularly volunteer their time to help
> others.
>
> As with any interaction, the quality of information in the question
> directly impacts what can be offered in-response.
>
> More of us can help with (pure) Python questions. Moving into
> specialised areas may reduce the number who feel competent to answer.
>
> We'll value any contribution you may be able to offer, and will look
> forward to hearing of the projects you attempt...

Thanks man. Yeah I'm not going anywhere. If I don't get good answers
from here then I'll go to IRC.

I am on forums but tend to stay away from them unless I absolutely have
to. I like newsgroups as they are - though I have noticed a massive drop
in users ever since Google dropped their groups service. I also saw a
minor drop in spam.

I'm not too worried about the trolls either.

D

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:

> On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 23:26:39 +0100, Daniel wrote:
>
>> New here. I've perused some posts and haven't seen a posting FAQ for
>> this NG. I'm learning python right now to realize some hobby goals I
>> have regarding some smolnet services. What are the NG standards on
>> pasting code in messages? Do yall prefer I post a pastebin link if it's
>> over a certain number of lines? I know this isn't IRC - just asking.
>
> <snark>
> Standards? This is usenet, the last remaining wild west. Good news: c.l.p
> isn't overrun by trolls. Bad news: c.l.p doesn't seem to be overrun by
> much of anybody.
> </snark>

I'm not worried much about large populations. i've been on massive
forums and had less results than I did with an IRC channel with four
users.

>
> smolnet, as in things like

Lesser used protocols not known by many in the mainstream. Such as:

gopher, gemini, finger, spartan, titan, etc.

An example of use, here's a weather service tied to a finger. Put your
city name as the user. This isn't mine, but it is inspiring. Example:

finger miami@graph.no

For all options, go to the help finger:

finger help@graph.no

Daniel

On 22/08/24 09:15, Daniel via Python-list wrote:
> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 23:26:39 +0100, Daniel wrote:
>>
....
>> smolnet, as in things like
>
> Lesser used protocols not known by many in the mainstream. Such as:
>
> gopher, gemini, finger, spartan, titan, etc.
>
> An example of use, here's a weather service tied to a finger. Put your
> city name as the user. This isn't mine, but it is inspiring. Example:
>
> finger miami@graph.no

The OpSys on this machine no longer features finger (available for
installation as an 'extra').

For Miami weather using a stock-standard web-browser, try:
https://www.yr.no/en/content/2-4164138/meteogram.svg

--
Regards,
=dn

On Wed, Aug 21, 2024 at 4:04 PM Daniel via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:

>
> An example of use, here's a weather service tied to a finger. Put your
> city name as the user. This isn't mine, but it is inspiring. Example:
>
> finger miami@graph.no
>
> For all options, go to the help finger:
>
> finger help@graph.no

Quite cool!

On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 22:15:37 +0100, Daniel wrote:

> Lesser used protocols not known by many in the mainstream. Such as:
>
> gopher, gemini, finger, spartan, titan, etc.
>
> An example of use, here's a weather service tied to a finger. Put your
> city name as the user. This isn't mine, but it is inspiring. Example:
>
> finger miami@graph.no
>
> For all options, go to the help finger:
>
> finger help@graph.no

Thanks. Interesting. I was surprised a Norwegian site would have data for
a small city in the US. I have a Python script that accesses the NOAA
(National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) API and the data in the
Meteogram appears to match well. fwiw, all that does is

observation_url = f"https://api.weather.gov/stations/K{grid_id}/
observations/latest"
response = requests.get(observation_url).json()

using the Python 'requests' package and then parsing out the JSON.
Implementing finger probably would be a straight socket connection. I
don't know how useful this is:

https://pypi.org/project/pyfinger/

I assume gopher is fron the archie, veronica, and jughead days. It appears
straightforward.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1436

It's another use of a simple socket connection.

https://docs.python.org/3/howto/sockets.html

You may be able to gleam something from

https://sr.ht/~lioploum/offpunk/

On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:43:59 +1200, dn wrote:

> The OpSys on this machine no longer features finger (available for
> installation as an 'extra').

My Ubuntu 22.04 box has it, the Fedora 40 one doesn't. Ubuntu offers to
install gopher, Fedora doesn't. Go figure.

On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 22:04:14 +0100, Daniel wrote:

> I am on forums but tend to stay away from them unless I absolutely have
> to. I like newsgroups as they are - though I have noticed a massive drop
> in users ever since Google dropped their groups service. I also saw a
> minor drop in spam.

Absolutely. It was sort of an intelligence test. I've used the server at
the Freie Universität Berlin from back in the days when it was free rather
than 10 Euros a year so life went on smoothly.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:

> On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 22:15:37 +0100, Daniel wrote:
>
>> Lesser used protocols not known by many in the mainstream. Such as:
>>
>> gopher, gemini, finger, spartan, titan, etc.
>>
>> An example of use, here's a weather service tied to a finger. Put your
>> city name as the user. This isn't mine, but it is inspiring. Example:
>>
>> finger miami@graph.no
>>
>> For all options, go to the help finger:
>>
>> finger help@graph.no
>
> Thanks. Interesting. I was surprised a Norwegian site would have data for
> a small city in the US. I have a Python script that accesses the NOAA
> (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) API and the data in the
> Meteogram appears to match well. fwiw, all that does is
>
> observation_url = f"https://api.weather.gov/stations/K{grid_id}/
> observations/latest"
> response = requests.get(observation_url).json()

I think he uses a weather service API to call the data, and I'm sure
they all share data across other national weather services. That's just
a guess.

>
> using the Python 'requests' package and then parsing out the JSON.
> Implementing finger probably would be a straight socket connection. I
> don't know how useful this is:
>
> https://pypi.org/project/pyfinger/
>
> I assume gopher is fron the archie, veronica, and jughead days. It appears
> straightforward.

I use gopher all the time, and the lynx browser supports it directly.

If you have lynx, you can visit this gopher interface to Wikipedia:

gopher://gopherpedia.com

If you like Reddit, there's this

gopher://gopherddit.com

Of course it's read only, but if you're wishing to leisurely read posts
on reddit in a super fast gopher page, you can.

Right now, I'm focused on providing wiktionary.org services on gopher as
well as finger.

These are longterm projects since I can only learn python and code on
spare time, which I have little.

/snip

I will be posting my coding questions in here.

Thanks guys.

Daniel

Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, Aug 21, 2024 at 4:04 PM Daniel via Python-list <
> python-list@python.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> An example of use, here's a weather service tied to a finger. Put your
>> city name as the user. This isn't mine, but it is inspiring. Example:
>>
>> finger miami@graph.no
>>
>> For all options, go to the help finger:
>>
>> finger help@graph.no
>
>
> Quite cool!

Right? It's so quick too. Just thinking how broad you can make it -
accessing live data on the internet without the need of a broadband
connection.

If you want to check out the fingerverse

finger fingerverse@happynetbox.com

If you remember webrings, there's a finger ring, though there aren't
alot of fingers registered on there yet.

finger ring@thebackupbox.net

Daniel

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
> smolnet, as in things like https://small-tech.org/

Hey thanks for that link. The concept is interesting though idk about
the code. A little too much Javascript for "small tech", heh.

> Python certainly has the tools. You can even construct a web server on a
> Raspberry Pi Pico but I don't know any specifics about smolnet.

The Pico uses MicroPython which is stuck on an old version of Python,
unfortunately.

On 22 Aug 2024 04:25:17 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> stall gopher, Fedora doesn't. Go figure.

"Use the sauce, Luke."

Arch has it in the AUR.

Built on these:
https://github.com/gophernicus/gophernicus (daemon)
https://gopherus.sourceforge.net/ (client)

--
Gilmeh

....his disciples lead him in; he just does the rest. -- The Who, "Tommy"

On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 10:40:52 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:

> The Pico uses MicroPython which is stuck on an old version of Python,
> unfortunately.

I think it's up to 3.4 in general and erratic past that. It doesn't have
the match from 3.10. I don't think it has f-strings though it may have
the walrus. There are workarounds but it can be annoying.

I haven't worked with CircuitPython lately and don't know if it has pulled
in later features.

After looking at what is going on in the other area, I am convinced that we
need multiple boards with different ideas of what should be moderated or
even ones where only very egregious behavior gets you banned. There is
serious debate there about whether the group of people in charge of a more
focused set of duties should even be given the ability to manage the mailing
lists versus others.

There are advantages to having a safe environment but not when the keepers
want to stifle dissent or promote their own agendas as if everyone buys into
them.

I see hints there will be changes there as they were a tad tone deaf and did
not seem to care if anyone objected.

Let's keep this forum going.

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail.com@python.org> On
Behalf Of Dan Sommers via Python-list
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2024 4:57 AM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: new here

On 2024-08-20 at 23:16:48 -0400,
AVI GROSS via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:

> I do wonder if the people at python.org want multiple forums. There is
> also one that sort of tutors people that obviously has an overlapping
> but different audience.

$ python -m this
The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters
[...]
There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch.
[...]
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 09:10:00 +0100, Daniel wrote:

> If you have lynx, you can visit this gopher interface to Wikipedia:
>
> gopher://gopherpedia.com

Yeah, that works and I could find Hillbilly Elegy (film). The text was
fine but the 'Accolades' table was garbled. It came up on the Netflix
recommendations and I watched it last night so when it said 'Search' I
wanted to see what it would do. It came back with links to the book, the
film, the Vances, and cast member bios. It's a subset of the Wiki 'Search
in..' but still impressive.

Python certainly will get the job done either on the client or server
side. Being retro tech should make life easier than some of the web
services frameworks.

On 23/08/24 07:49, rbowman via Python-list wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 10:40:52 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:
>
>> The Pico uses MicroPython which is stuck on an old version of Python,
>> unfortunately.

How did this enter the conversation/thread?

Paul's 'contribution' does not even appear on the Archive...

> I think it's up to 3.4 in general and erratic past that. It doesn't have
> the match from 3.10. I don't think it has f-strings though it may have
> the walrus. There are workarounds but it can be annoying.

Two points:

- it's cut-down to work on bare-metal which makes for low demands on
resources, but commensurate shortage of the facilities we CPython
developers take for-granted (ie may allow ourselves to find annoying)

- it has f-strings, but frustrates those of us who prefer F-strings

- the docs point-out that (compared with full-fat Python) it is less
consistent across environments. Accordingly, worth reading the "Quick
Reference for [your processor]" sections of the docs, eg R-Pi Pico
version only has half of the ADC-methods.

Once scale expectations to take into account the power of the processor,
MicroPython goes-like-the-clappers!

> I haven't worked with CircuitPython lately and don't know if it has pulled
> in later features.

Have you (gentle reader) used both and feel able to offer a comparison -
when to prefer one over the other?

[https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/like-the-clappers.html]
--
Regards,
=dn

dn <PythonList@DancesWithMice.info> writes:

> - it's cut-down to work on bare-metal which makes for low demands on
> resources, but commensurate shortage of the facilities we CPython
> developers take for-granted (ie may allow ourselves to find annoying)

Later versions of Python (the language) aren't particularly more
demanding. MicroPython is just out of date in that regard. The high
consumption stuff in CPython is mostly in the libraries.

>> MicroPython vs CircuitPython
> Have you (gentle reader) used both and feel able to offer a comparison
> - when to prefer one over the other?

CircuitPython is supposed to be more beginner-friendly and more
consistent across hardware. It also supports some hardware devices that
MicroPython doesn't. I don't know how difficult it would be to port
those drivers if there was occasion to. MicroPython has more "export"
user options, including being able to compile in more language features
like bignum arithmetic. I think CircuitPython integers are limited to
32 bits.

Also, CircuitPython (maybe as part of its beginner friendliness)
supports the USB mass storagei interface out of the box. So you can buy
an Adafruit board with CircuitPython already on it, plug it into a USB
port, and have it auto-mount as a FAT32 file system to which you can
drag and drop files from your PC. With MicroPython on the Pico, you use
some command line utility to transfer files instead, but it is no big
deal.