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Your best consolation is the hope that the things you failed to get weren't really worth having.

comp / comp.lang.python / Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)

Subject: Terminal Emulator
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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
From: Alan Gauld
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 19:06 UTC
References: 1 2

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From: learn2program@gmail.com (Alan Gauld)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
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On 14/05/2024 18:44, Gordinator via Python-list wrote:
> I wish to write a terminal emulator in Python. I am a fairly competent
> Python user, and I wish to try a new project idea. What references can I
> use when writing my terminal emulator? I wish for it to be a true
> terminal emulator as well, not just a Tk text widget or something like that.

The first thing is to decide which terminal. A VT100 is very different
from a 3270. And even a VT330 is quite different from a VT100 although
sharing a common subset of control codes. And if you start looking at
graphical terminals things get even more interesting!

The other thing to consider is whether it will be a standalone app or
a GUI component. If the latter do you want to expose your own API or
clone the manufacturers? Or both?!
Or you could make it an object that can be used both in GUIs and in
"robotic" or "batch" mode. So many options.

Most of the specs are available online and there must be dozens of
terminal emulators around written in C so you should have plenty
of sample code to study. Good luck!

--
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos

Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
From: Grant Edwards
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 19:47 UTC
References: 1 2 3

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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
From: Grant Edwards
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 20:03 UTC
References: 1 2 3

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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 16:03:33 -0400 (EDT)
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On 2024-05-14, Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:
> On 14/05/2024 18:44, Gordinator via Python-list wrote:
>
>> I wish to write a terminal emulator in Python. I am a fairly
>> competent Python user, and I wish to try a new project idea. What
>> references can I use when writing my terminal emulator? I wish for
>> it to be a true terminal emulator as well, not just a Tk text
>> widget or something like that.
>
> The first thing is to decide which terminal.

If you want to make life easier, make it a superset of a terminal that
already exists in the terminfo database.

Going with some sort of ANSI terminal will probably provide
operability even with dumb apps which ignore $TERM and just spit out
basic ANSI escape sequences.

If you really want to break trail, you could invent your own control
sequences, which means you'll have to write terminfo and/or termcap
entries as well as the terminal emulator.

> A VT100 is very different from a 3270. And even a VT330 is quite
> different from a VT100 although sharing a common subset of control
> codes. And if you start looking at graphical terminals things get
> even more interesting!

"Intersting" is putting it mildly...

Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
From: Mirko
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 20:37 UTC
References: 1 2

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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
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Am 14.05.24 um 19:44 schrieb Gordinator via Python-list:
> I wish to write a terminal emulator in Python. I am a fairly
> competent Python user, and I wish to try a new project idea. What
> references can I use when writing my terminal emulator? I wish for
> it to be a true terminal emulator as well, not just a Tk text widget
> or something like that.
>
> If you have any advice, please do let me know!

Not sure, what you mean with:

> true terminal emulator as well, not just a Tk text widget or something like that
If you want to write a GUI terminal, than that *is* a terminal
emulator and *has* a text widget as its visible core. If you want to
write something like getty which runs on the virtual terminals
(Ctrl+Alt+F*) than that is a terminal (not a terminal emulator).

In both cases, you write something that gets input from the
keyboard, processes it and shows the result. How that processing is
done, depends on the terminal standard, like DEC VT{100, 102, 220,
320, etc}.

For a start, you might want to look at Terminator, which is a
terminal emulator written in Python, Gtk and libvte (which does all
the low level stuff).

Subject: RE: Terminal Emulator
From: <avi.e.gross@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 21:10 UTC
References: 1 2 3

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From: <avi.e.gross@gmail.com>
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The topic was to re-invent the wheel yet again and create a terminal
emulator.

I hesitate to say this but one approach is to consider the curses module as
described by our very own Alan Gauld in a book:

https://www.amazon.com/Programming-curses-Python-Alan-Gauld-ebook/dp/B091B85
B77

The topic is how to make a terminal emulator and as Alan mentions, each kind
of terminal may accept various kinds of escape sequences. There are files
available the are normally used by curses to get a description of sorts of
the capabilities and details of a terminal like a VT100 that curses can use
to decide what stream of bytes to send to update a screen.

You might be able to use something similar, or better, to see what your
terminal emulator should emulate.

And, it may even be possible for you to emulate lots of terminals with the
same basic code.

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail.com@python.org> On
Behalf Of Alan Gauld via Python-list
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2024 3:07 PM
To: Gordinator <gordinator@gordinator.org>; python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator

Most of the specs are available online and there must be dozens of
terminal emulators around written in C so you should have plenty
of sample code to study. Good luck!

--
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
From: Cameron Simpson
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 22:35 UTC
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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
From: Stefan Ram
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Organization: Stefan Ram
Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 10:31 UTC
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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
From: Peter J. Holzer
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On 2024-05-14 16:03:33 -0400, Grant Edwards via Python-list wrote:
> On 2024-05-14, Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:
> > On 14/05/2024 18:44, Gordinator via Python-list wrote:
> >
> >> I wish to write a terminal emulator in Python. I am a fairly
> >> competent Python user, and I wish to try a new project idea. What
> >> references can I use when writing my terminal emulator? I wish for
> >> it to be a true terminal emulator as well, not just a Tk text
> >> widget or something like that.
> >
> > The first thing is to decide which terminal.
>
> If you want to make life easier, make it a superset of a terminal that
> already exists in the terminfo database.
>
> Going with some sort of ANSI terminal will probably provide
> operability even with dumb apps which ignore $TERM and just spit out
> basic ANSI escape sequences.

And if you want to go for a superset, xterm might be one of the more
useful: https://www.xfree86.org/current/ctlseqs.html

> If you really want to break trail, you could invent your own control
> sequences, which means you'll have to write terminfo and/or termcap
> entries as well as the terminal emulator.

Right. A saner model than ANSI and its supersets might be a good idea
conceptionally. But I'd expect quite a few programs to break.

> > A VT100 is very different from a 3270. And even a VT330 is quite
> > different from a VT100 although sharing a common subset of control
> > codes. And if you start looking at graphical terminals things get
> > even more interesting!
>
> "Intersting" is putting it mildly...

Yup. Also there aren't many programs which use, e.g. xterm's
pixel-graphics capabilities.

OTOH, there is something like domterm[1], which can (theoretically)
display anything a browser can display.

[1] https://domterm.org/index.html

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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
From: Peter J. Holzer
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 15:17 UTC
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On 2024-05-14 22:37:17 +0200, Mirko via Python-list wrote:
> Am 14.05.24 um 19:44 schrieb Gordinator via Python-list:
> > I wish to write a terminal emulator in Python. I am a fairly competent
> > Python user, and I wish to try a new project idea. What references can I
> > use when writing my terminal emulator? I wish for it to be a true
> > terminal emulator as well, not just a Tk text widget or something like
> > that.
> >
> > If you have any advice, please do let me know!
>
>
> Not sure, what you mean with:
>
> > true terminal emulator as well, not just a Tk text widget or
> > something like that
> If you want to write a GUI terminal, than that *is* a terminal emulator and
> *has* a text widget as its visible core. If you want to write something like
> getty which runs on the virtual terminals (Ctrl+Alt+F*) than that is a
> terminal (not a terminal emulator).

Getty isn't a terminal (unless there is another program of the same
name). It's a small program to set up a serial communication line.
Basically it waits for the modem to connect, sets the relevant
parameters (bit rate, byte width, parity, ...) and then hands over to
login. Of course in the case of a linux console there is no modem and no
serial line involved, so it doesn't have much to do. (Of course this
raises the question whether the Linux console is a terminal or a
terminal emulator ...)

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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)
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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator
From: Piergiorgio Sartor
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 15:31 UTC
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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)
From: Grant Edwards
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Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 16:48 UTC
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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)
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On 5/18/24 10:48, Grant Edwards via Python-list wrote:
> On 2024-05-18, Peter J. Holzer via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:
>> On 2024-05-16 19:46:07 +0100, Gordinator via Python-list wrote:
>>
>>> To be fair, the problem is the fact that they use Windows (but I
>>> guess Linux users have to deal with venvs, so we're even.
>>
>> I don't think Linux users have to deal with venvs any more than
>> Windows users. Maybe even less because many distributions come with
>> a decent set of Python packages.
>
> I've been using Python on Linux almost daily for 25 years,

same here, but:

and I've
> yet to use a venv...

Distros have do offer a good selection of packaged Python bits, yes, but
only for the version of Python that's "native" to that distro release.
If you need to test other versions of Python, you're mostly on your own.
Just as an example, for a particular project I had one test machine
running Fedora 38 until just a couple weeks ago, with Python 3.11 as
"native" with a full suite of packages, but I needed to test 3.12 and
then the 3.13 pre-releases, as well as occasionally sanity-check the
"oldest supported Python for this project", which turned out to be 3.6.
I could build all those Pythons myself and install them to a location I
can "python3.xx -m pip install" to, but Fedora is nice enough to package
up a whole bunch of past and future Python versions, so why? And Fedora
really discourages doing installs via pip to a system-packaged Python.
So venvs make managing all that pretty convenient. Dunno why everybody's
so down on venvs...

Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)
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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)
From: Grant Edwards
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 18:41 UTC
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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)
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On 2024-05-18, Mats Wichmann via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:

> Distros have do offer a good selection of packaged Python bits, yes, but
> only for the version of Python that's "native" to that distro release.
> If you need to test other versions of Python, you're mostly on your own.

For a few years I needed both 2.x and 3.x installed, but my distro
(Gentoo) handled that fine (I think most others do also). Gentoo also
allows multiple minor versions to be installed (currently I have 3.11
and 3.12 on this machine).

But, since Gentoo is a source-based meta-distro, when I install a
Python package, the package manager knows how to install it for all
installed Python versions that are supported by the package.

I can't think of why I would need a venv unless I needed to test
something with a Python version that isn't available for Gentoo. That
said, there are currently 7 versions available (2.7.18, 3.8.19,
3.9.19, 3.10.14, 3.11.9, 3.12.3, 3.13.0).

3.13 isn't marked stable yet in the Gentoo package database, and I
apparently have some Python app/package installed that doesn't yet
support 3.12, so I've currently got both 3.12 and 3.11.

Subject: venvs vs. package management (was: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited))
From: Peter J. Holzer
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 06:49 UTC
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On 2024-05-18 20:12:33 +0200, Piergiorgio Sartor via Python-list wrote:
> On 18/05/2024 20.04, Mats Wichmann wrote:
> > So venvs make managing all that pretty convenient. Dunno why everybody's
> > so down on venvs...
>
> Only people which are *not* using python... :-)
>
> In my experience, venvs is the only possible
> way to use python properly.

That's very much depends on what you mean by properly.

Personally, I use venvs a lot. But most of the reasons have more to do
with team culture than technical constraints. In a different situation
(e.g. if all our developers used Linux and preferrably the same version)
I could see myself using venvs much less or maybe not at all.

> The dependency nightmare created by python, pip and all the rest
> cannot be resolved otherwise.

That's what package management on Linux is for. Sure, it means that you
won't have the newest version of anything and some packages not at all,
but you don't have to care about dependencies. Or updates.

(Missing packages can be a problem: Is there a script to automatically
generate .deb packages from PyPI? I haven't looked recently ...)

> It seems backward compatibility is a taboo...

I have recently written a script which checks out the newest version of
the project, creates a fresh venv using a requirements.txt without
version numbers and runs the test suite. If there is any action required
(either because a test fails or because there is a newer version of any
dependent package) it will create a ticket in redmine. Oh, and this
script runs on a staging server which has the same Linux distribution
(and hence the same Python version) as the production server.
Seems to work, but that is only necessary because we are using venvs. If
we relied on the distro's package management that would basically be a
non-issue.

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Subject: Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)
From: Alan Gauld
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Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 07:32 UTC
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On 18/05/2024 19:12, Piergiorgio Sartor via Python-list wrote:

>> So venvs make managing all that pretty convenient. Dunno why everybody's
>> so down on venvs...

Not so much down on them, they are just one extra step that's
mostly not needed(in my use case)

> Only people which are *not* using python... :-)
>
> In my experience, venvs is the only possible
> way to use python properly.

Well, I've been using Python since 1998 on Linux, Windows
and MacOS and have yet to find a use for a venv. I've
played with them when they first came out but haven't
actually found a scenario where I've thought "I need
a venv for that!"

But then I'm a sole user, I have 3 or 4 projects going
but only me working on them. I only have 2 Python versions
at any time and the OS handles that just fine without
any venvs.

> The dependency nightmare created by python, pip
> and all the rest cannot be resolved otherwise.

I've honestly never experienced this "nightmare".
I install stuff and it just works.

--
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos

Subject: Re: venvs vs. package management
From: Piergiorgio Sartor
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
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Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 13:44 UTC
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Subject: Re: venvs vs. package management
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On 19/05/2024 08.49, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
[...]
> That's what package management on Linux is for. Sure, it means that you
> won't have the newest version of anything and some packages not at all,
> but you don't have to care about dependencies. Or updates.

Well, that doesn't work as well.
Distributions do not pack everything, this
also depending on licenses.

Sometimes, or often, you need to use the
*latest* version of something, due to some
bugfix or similar.

The distribution does not always keep up
to date everything, so you're stuck.

The only solution is a venv, with all
needed packages for the given task.

Typical problem with PyTorch / TensorFlow.

In case of trouble, the first answer is:
"Check with the latest (nightly) release".

Which means installing something *outside*
the Linux distribution support.
And this impossible, because this will pull
in dependencies like crazy, which are not
(yet) in the Linux distribution path.

Saying it differently, the latest greatest
update is not a wish, it's a must...

So, long story short, the only solution I
know are venvs...

Of course, other solutions are welcome!

bye,

piergiorgio

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On 5/19/2024 3:32 AM, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
> On 18/05/2024 19:12, Piergiorgio Sartor via Python-list wrote:

>>[snip]

>> The dependency nightmare created by python, pip
>> and all the rest cannot be resolved otherwise.
>
> I've honestly never experienced this "nightmare".
> I install stuff and it just works.

One way it can bite even you is if you have a program installed whose
requirements claim it needs a certain library of version no higher than
X, and you already already have a later version of that library
installed since one of your other programs requires it. Pip won't
install the new program because of this conflict.

In reality, you may know the the new program would work fine with the
version of the library you installed, but the packagers of the new
program didn't realize they should have updated their requirements.

With venvs, you can have separate environments for each. Of course this
doesn't help if you need both packages in the same environment...

Subject	Author
Terminal Emulator	Gordinator
Re: Terminal Emulator	Alan Gauld
Re: Terminal Emulator	Grant Edwards
Re: Terminal Emulator	Grant Edwards
Re: Terminal Emulator	Mirko
RE: Terminal Emulator	<avi.e.gross
Re: Terminal Emulator	Cameron Simpson
Re: Terminal Emulator	Stefan Ram
Re: Terminal Emulator	Gordinator
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Gordinator
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Peter J. Holzer
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Grant Edwards
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Mats Wichmann
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Piergiorgio Sartor
venvs vs. package management (was: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Pro	Peter J. Holzer
Re: venvs vs. package management	Piergiorgio Sartor
Re: venvs vs. package management	Left Right
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Alan Gauld
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Gilmeh Serda
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	MRAB
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Grant Edwards
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Gordinator
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Grant Edwards
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Thomas Passin
pip and venvs on Debian (was: Terminal Emulator)	Akkana Peck
Re: pip and venvs on Debian	Roel Schroeven
Re: Terminal Emulator (Posting On Python-List Prohibited)	Grant Edwards
Re: Terminal Emulator	Peter J. Holzer
Re: Terminal Emulator	Peter J. Holzer
Re: Terminal Emulator	Piergiorgio Sartor