The term "tuple" appears a fair bit in programming but its pronunciation
is a source of some controversy.

How do you pronounce "tuple"?

Like me, are you irritated when people pronounce it 'the wrong way'?

How can fellow programmers be persuaded to pronounce it 'properly'?

Correct (IMO) is tu'ple with the first syllable ending in a long u.

Wrong (IMO) is tup'le with the u being short.

As evidence of where a short and long u are similarly used in English:

super - su'per - long u
supper - supp'er - short u

Also, supple - short u due to the double p.

The other reason is where I believe tuple comes from. Consider groups of
increasing numbers of items:

0 - void
1 - single
2 - pair
3 - triple
4 - quadruple
5 - quintuple
6 - sextuple
7 - septuple
8 - octuple

etc, where the higher numbers end in "tuple".

leading to

n - n-tuple

I would say that the latter ones of those above, 4 to 8, are pronounced
with a long u which is, therefore, why there should be a long u in tuple.

Perhaps people who pronounce it tupple grew up reading comics about
supperman. ;-)

--
James Harris

On 15/08/2024 17:26, James Harris wrote:
> The term "tuple" appears a fair bit in programming but its pronunciation
> is a source of some controversy.
>
>
> How do you pronounce "tuple"?

I don't think I've ever had to say it out loud!

Working in isolation for some many years, there are probably lots of
terms and names that I don't know the pronounciation of. Sometimes a
youtube lecture is the first time I hear a technical term spoken aloud.

(However, I prefer to say 'giga' as though it starts with 'j', even
though most say it the other way.)

>
> Like me, are you irritated when people pronounce it 'the wrong way'?
>
> How can fellow programmers be persuaded to pronounce it 'properly'?
>
>
> Correct (IMO) is tu'ple with the first syllable ending in a long u.
>

That sounds about right and how I'd guess it should be said.

But I typed it into Google Translate, told it to say it, and its
pronounciation was 'tupple'.

> Wrong (IMO) is tup'le with the u being short.
>
> As evidence of where a short and long u are similarly used in English:
>
> super - su'per - long u
> supper - supp'er - short u
>
> Also, supple - short u due to the double p.
>
> The other reason is where I believe tuple comes from. Consider groups of
> increasing numbers of items:
>
> 0 - void
> 1 - single
> 2 - pair
> 3 - triple
> 4 - quadruple
> 5 - quintuple
> 6 - sextuple
> 7 - septuple
> 8 - octuple
>
> etc, where the higher numbers end in "tuple".
>
> leading to
>
> n - n-tuple
>
> I would say that the latter ones of those above, 4 to 8, are pronounced
> with a long u which is, therefore, why there should be a long u in tuple.
>
> Perhaps people who pronounce it tupple grew up reading comics about
> supperman. ;-)

'quintuplet' sounds correct with a short 'u' and weird with a long 'u'.

James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:
>The term "tuple" appears a fair bit in programming but its pronunciation
>is a source of some controversy.

There's low-key more backing for the [uː] you think is right.

I've heard folks say it (in vids) with both [uː] and [ʌ].

Word pronunciations can be hella irregular, with exceptions like the
"u" in "busy," "business," and "bury." So, the "u" in "tuple" might
be a gnarly exception too.

(Another similar debate is how to say "router.")

On 15 Aug 2024 19:58:24 GMT, Stefan Ram wrote:

> (Another similar debate is how to say "router.")

There are two different words. One of them only has one commonly-used
pronunciation. The controversy is over whether the other should use the
same pronunciation or not.

It seems to me, it make sense if it doesn’t.

On 15/08/2024 21:58, Stefan Ram wrote:
> James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:
>> The term "tuple" appears a fair bit in programming but its pronunciation
>> is a source of some controversy.
>
> There's low-key more backing for the [uː] you think is right.
>
> I've heard folks say it (in vids) with both [uː] and [ʌ].

I don't think there is any consistency or pattern here - both are used.

I suspect a major reason for this is that the word "tuple" is not in
common usage outside of programming. So a large proportion of people
first come across it in written form, and pick whatever pronunciation
seems to work when they first say the word.

There is also no authoritative reference, unlike for terms like "Linux"
where there is a clearly correct pronunciation (based on the
pronunciation of the OS "Minix" and the way Linus Torvalds pronounces
his name - the Finnish way, not the common American way. Linus created
Linux - he gets to decide the correct pronunciation for the word).

>
> Word pronunciations can be hella irregular, with exceptions like the
> "u" in "busy," "business," and "bury." So, the "u" in "tuple" might
> be a gnarly exception too.
>
> (Another similar debate is how to say "router.")

That one is a lot clearer. In British English, the word "route" is
pronounced the same as "root". In American English, it is pronounced
the same as "rout" (rhyming with "out"). So obviously the correct
pronunciation is like "root-er" :-)

On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 11:34:00 +0200
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

> > (Another similar debate is how to say "router.")
>
> That one is a lot clearer. In British English, the word "route" is
> pronounced the same as "root". In American English, it is pronounced
> the same as "rout" (rhyming with "out"). So obviously the correct
> pronunciation is like "root-er" :-)

Unless you're talking about the device used to cut channels in pieces
of wood, in which it is rout-er.

--

Brian Morrison "No, his mind is not for rent
To any god or government
Always hopeful, but discontent
He knows changes aren't permanent
But change is"

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:
>I've heard folks say it (in vids) with both [uː] and [ʌ].

I also heard

rɪˈzʊlt

for "result", while dictionaries only give

rɪˈzʌlt.

(Péter Szigetvári wrote [rɪˈzʊlt] can be heard in Northern
England, but I think I heard it from an American speaker.)

On 16/08/2024 12:38, Brian Morrison wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 11:34:00 +0200
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>
>>> (Another similar debate is how to say "router.")
>>
>> That one is a lot clearer. In British English, the word "route" is
>> pronounced the same as "root". In American English, it is pronounced
>> the same as "rout" (rhyming with "out"). So obviously the correct
>> pronunciation is like "root-er" :-)
>
> Unless you're talking about the device used to cut channels in pieces
> of wood, in which it is rout-er.
>

Of course. But that is from the stem "rout", rather than "route". (The
word "rout", pronounced the way Americans pronounce "route", has several
other meanings such as an alternative for a bull's bellow, or chasing an
enemy off the battlefield. I have no idea how Americans pronounce "rout".)

On 16/08/2024 15:57, David Brown wrote:
> On 16/08/2024 12:38, Brian Morrison wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 11:34:00 +0200
>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>>
>>>>     (Another similar debate is how to say "router.")
>>>
>>> That one is a lot clearer.  In British English, the word "route" is
>>> pronounced the same as "root".  In American English, it is pronounced
>>> the same as "rout" (rhyming with "out").  So obviously the correct
>>> pronunciation is like "root-er" :-)
>>
>> Unless you're talking about the device used to cut channels in pieces
>> of wood, in which it is rout-er.
>>
>
> Of course.  But that is from the stem "rout", rather than "route".  (The
> word "rout", pronounced the way Americans pronounce "route", has several
> other meanings such as an alternative for a bull's bellow, or chasing an
> enemy off the battlefield.  I have no idea how Americans pronounce "rout".)
>

Thanks for pointing that out. I'd never thought about why in British
English we say rout-er and route-er but what you say makes sense.

--
James Harris

On 15/08/2024 19:35, Bart wrote:
> On 15/08/2024 17:26, James Harris wrote:
>> The term "tuple" appears a fair bit in programming but its
>> pronunciation is a source of some controversy.
>>
>>
>> How do you pronounce "tuple"?
>
> I don't think I've ever had to say it out loud!
>
> Working in isolation for some many years, there are probably lots of
> terms and names that I don't know the pronounciation of. Sometimes a
> youtube lecture is the first time I hear a technical term spoken aloud.
>
> (However, I prefer to say 'giga' as though it starts with 'j', even
> though most say it the other way.)

You and Doc Brown. :-)

So you might have a certain number of jigs of memory? :-o

>
>>
>> Like me, are you irritated when people pronounce it 'the wrong way'?
>>
>> How can fellow programmers be persuaded to pronounce it 'properly'?
>>
>>
>> Correct (IMO) is tu'ple with the first syllable ending in a long u.
>>
>
> That sounds about right and how I'd guess it should be said.
>
> But I typed it into Google Translate, told it to say it, and its
> pronounciation was 'tupple'.

That's weird.

AIUI Wiktionary allows for both pronunciations, 'tuple' first, then
'tupple' - if the order is meant to mean anything.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tuple

It's disappointing that there's so obvious a difference of opinion among
people such as programmers as I was planning to use tuples (tu'ples) and
to call them such. But the dichotomy of pronunciations would make
interacting with other programmers unnecessarily irritating. I may have
to fall back on the more generic term "group" or suchlike.

....

>> 0 - void
>> 1 - single
>> 2 - pair
>> 3 - triple
>> 4 - quadruple
>> 5 - quintuple
>> 6 - sextuple
>> 7 - septuple
>> 8 - octuple
>>
>> etc, where the higher numbers end in "tuple".
>>
>> leading to
>>
>> n - n-tuple
>>
>> I would say that the latter ones of those above, 4 to 8, are
>> pronounced with a long u which is, therefore, why there should be a
>> long u in tuple.
>>
>> Perhaps people who pronounce it tupple grew up reading comics about
>> supperman. ;-)
>
>
> 'quintuplet' sounds correct with a short 'u' and weird with a long 'u'.

That sounds correct to me. Contrast it with the spelling 'quintupplet'
which looks wrong: the u looks automatically short in quintuplet and so
doesn't need the second p to shorten it.

English is often awkward but as a native English speaker I would
naturally read

quin.tu'ple (long u)
quin.tup'let (short u)

And, again as a native English speaker, tu'ple would need a doubled-up p
to make the u short.

--
James Harris