"cshenk" wrote in message
news:4cucnah3_8rNJgP4nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com...
Jim Wilkins wrote:
> The simple and safe, though not cheapest, backup is a packaged power
> station such as a Jackery.

Perfect! I was about to ask for thoughts on the Jackery setups.

-------------------------
I like the concept more than the price. But my version isn't portable. They
ask $1099 for 1 KWH of capacity, I have nominally 1.2 KWH for $100, readily
expandable, and perhaps another hundred or so for the solar controller and
inverter etc bought separately. A Lithium Iron Phosphate battery of that
capacity costs under $300. The disadvantage of my approach is needing my
industrial electrician experience to safely wire them together and metal
fabrication equipment to enclose the bare circuit boards, circuit breakers
and high current connections.

I designed and built custom industrial test equipment and was the battery
tech at Segway. Lithiums can be left at any charge level without (much)
concern, like a gas tank. They have internal controls that disconnect the
output if the charge level approaches too high or too low or the current is
excessive. According to their Chat a Jackery can display remaining capacity.

Lead-acids want to remain fully charged as much as possible. I can't get a
manufacturer to quote numbers but I think a few days to a week discharged
may be harmful, like your blood sugar level. Reportedly the discharge
products recrystallize into a less reactive form, called "sulfation", though
some disagree. On the plus side their voltage drops as they discharge so a
simple voltmeter indicates (hints at) remaining capacity.

The implication is that solar power with cheaper flooded lead-acids needs to
be recharged daily for longest cycle life. In a stretch of bad weather they
need to be disconnected from the load and receive at least a trickle charge
from the grid, which means you have to watch tomorrow's weather forecast and
hope it's correct. Sealed lead-acids, also called AGM or VRLA, may or may
not perform better enough to justify their added cost. I'm still looking at
this. They can be bought prepackaged into car jump starters, some with 120V
AC outlets.

This is the go-to tool to measure the electricity consumption of your
plugged-in appliances:
https://www.harborfreight.com/kill-a-watt-electric-monitor-93519.html
They can tell you how much backup capacity you actually need.
Watts is the rate of consumption, like how fast you are driving. Watt- or
Kilowatt-Hours is the total (Integral) of consumption, like how far you've
driven. It's the measure of battery energy storage capacity, Volts x Amps x
Time.

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:f8KdnXJdAcArXQP4nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@giganews.com...

Don't be so tied to battery backups. It's not a 'can't afford it yet'
in the way you seem to be pushing. It's 'may add a 4-6 hour unit' to
prevent higher peak hour consumption rates'. With no cut-out switch,
it's only usable when grid is up. The potential jackery backup is for
use during grid down times for basic comfort.

You seem to address this from 'desirement'. This is very different
from my point view which is 'requirement' based.

The math doesn't work out here on 'bang for the buck'. You did catch
that I only produce 92% of my annual needs' right? A honkin' big
backup battery setup would not only never fill, some of it would be
lost whereas I am protected from any loss as it is as that storage is
nown the problem of the grid. I get all of it back with no loss.

---------------------------

I didn't check the details, but this is a very competitive price per KWH and
hopefully a good sign of a continuing downward trend.
https://sungoldpower.com/collections/new-years-sale/products/5-12kwh-powerwall-lifepo4-lithium-battery-sg48100m

Being LiFePO4 it doesn't ever need to fill, the suggested charge level for
maximum life is 60-80%. It or similar could be charged from 120VAC when your
rate is low and used when it's high, or saved for outages, avoiding the
expense of new panels and their installation and wiring.

However the IRS apparently doesn't allow a Form 5695 deduction for batteries
not exclusively charged by alternate energy. I arranged my system so only
the batteries for daily cycling I bought used at a flea market and didn't
claim are charged with a prioritized mix of solar then grid when solar
output is low or uncertain. In clear weather I switch the grid input off and
discharge the battery overnight. The batteries bought new and claimed are
separately solar charged in clear weather and saved for outage backup.

The most common use of the system is to go on battery when a night squall
line or thunderstorm is predicted, so my electronics are isolated from the
power line.

If you have a secure location like an enclosed deck a Jackery etc could be
charged outdoors from free-standing panels either aimed due south or
occasionally shifted toward the sun. I made fold-out panel rear supports
from 1/2" electrical conduit bent into a V. On clear days my batteries
recharge before noon and the initial 10AM panel aim is enough. 100W panels
are now below $70.

Since I build whatever I want I have no experience with Jackerys or similar.
I do have an old Harbor Freight 5-in-1 power pack refitted with LiFePO4 but
18Ah (216Wh) won't run much overnight.

"cshenk" <cshenk@virginia-beach.net> wrote in message
news:SIednfevasrLUwP4nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Scout wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> You could also take a bath if a hail storm comes through 3 years
>> later and wipes out 90% of your panels.. How long would it then take
>> to even think of breaking even?
>
>
> Hi Scout. You might want to look up newer stats. Thats the old China
> panels.

Actually they were US panels stated to be hail proof, and were less than 4
years old.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:unmrdg$2k3bk$1@dont-email.me...
> "cshenk" wrote in message
> news:4cucnah3_8rNJgP4nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> The simple and safe, though not cheapest, backup is a packaged power
>> station such as a Jackery.
>
> Perfect! I was about to ask for thoughts on the Jackery setups.

If I can offer a suggestion, instead of a prepacked format. Maybe look at
the boon-docking and camping areas.

Buy a pure sine wave inverter, batteries and charger as individual units, as
long as high mobility isn't a factor, you can get better and cheaper as
individual units and have the ability to customize to exactly the format you
want, and upgrade as needed based on your needs/wants.. from increasing
charging capacity, or going to higher voltages for better efficiencies or
different battery tech depending on weight, size, or mobility issues.
Yes, it does take a bit more research and consideration, but all in all you
will get a system tuned to your preferences at a lower price, and if you
should have a failure.. you only have to replace the part that failed.
Further you have much more access to replacements when on the road as most
RV and camping outlets will have at least a few options as replacements for
all of the parts.

So if you're talking a fixed installation for your home, then weight isn't
really an option and you can save money and get better capacity choosing
options not limited by weight. If you're RVing you may get away with a much
smaller inverter as often much of the rest can be run directly from DC thus
eliminating the conversion loses and expense of a larger inverter.

The advantage of the repacked is only simplicity and mobility.

"Scout" wrote in message news:unosv3$3109a$1@dont-email.me...

If I can offer a suggestion, instead of a prepacked format. Maybe look at
the boon-docking and camping areas.

Buy a pure sine wave inverter, batteries and charger as individual units, as
long as high mobility isn't a factor, you can get better and cheaper as
individual units and have the ability to customize to exactly the format you
want, and upgrade as needed based on your needs/wants.. from increasing
charging capacity, or going to higher voltages for better efficiencies or
different battery tech depending on weight, size, or mobility issues.
Yes, it does take a bit more research and consideration, but all in all you
will get a system tuned to your preferences at a lower price, and if you
should have a failure.. you only have to replace the part that failed.
Further you have much more access to replacements when on the road as most
RV and camping outlets will have at least a few options as replacements for
all of the parts.

So if you're talking a fixed installation for your home, then weight isn't
really an option and you can save money and get better capacity choosing
options not limited by weight. If you're RVing you may get away with a much
smaller inverter as often much of the rest can be run directly from DC thus
eliminating the conversion loses and expense of a larger inverter.

The advantage of the repacked is only simplicity and mobility.

-------------------------------

I briefly covered some of the advantages and disadvantages of that approach
when describing my DIY solar system. To expand, in order to design one you
need a good quantitative understanding of your requirements and to study and
understand the capabilities of the separate modules and how they interact.

Specifically an AC refrigerator draws a starting surge current that may
exceed 10 times its run current. You won't find that surge current in its
spec sheet. The inverter, which must be true sine for a fridge or freezer,
needs to be able to supply the brief overload. Then the cable to the battery
and the fuse or circuit breaker has to pass the 10x higher DC current
without an excessive voltage drop that would fault the inverter.

If the battery is Lithium its protection circuit will have maximum surge and
continuous current ratings which are quite low compared to lead-acid, they
often can't serve as vehicle starting batteries. For my 100Ah Minis it's
100A, or 1200W which is questionable to start a compact refrigerator and
likely inadequate for a normal sized one. All this to keep your beer cold.

The heavy cables from battery to inverter are usually terminated with
solderless crimp terminals that interconnect on brass bolts. These terminals
need special large and often expensive crimpers to squeeze them tight enough
onto the wire. For safety the cables should be fused which adds another
difficult connection to make.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bussmann-Eaton/BK-HHX?qs=ge9Jjt4GY3XDnWkUkqvZpw%3D%3D&mgh=1&gad_source=1

I've had bad results from the in-line circuit breakers sold for car audio.
The may open at the rated current the first time, then they overheat and
open at lower current. I think the contacts burn. Carling or Blue Sea
magnetic breakers are reliable and consistent and have the required DC
voltage and current ratings (which house breakers don't) but need an
enclosure and punched or drilled mounting panel.

If the battery and inverter aren't fastened together the cables need
connectors to allow separate handling, and likely a different expensive
crimper.
https://powerwerx.com/anderson-sb-connectors-sb50-50amp

The likely enclosure for a battery is a NOCO or Atwood boat battery box
which doesn't have internal space or ventilation for an inverter, it can be
mounted outside on the cover. The LiTime 100Ah Mini LiFePO4 will fit in a
NOCO Group 24 box although it's a bit taller than a lead-acid. Walmart is a
cheaper source for them than Amazon. If you have trouble with the strap
buckle I can explain how to assemble it.

The solar controller for a portable system will likely be small enough for
10AWG wire and PP45 Anderson connectors, which are somewhat easier to crimp.
Don't use connector types with exposed pins or wire of the thinnest NEC
permitted gauge. 10AWG wire can fit the 30A pin if its barrel is wedged open
a little with a tapered punch, then it can be soldered instead of crimped.
If you need solar panel cables other than what you can buy the special
crimper for MC4 connectors is another expense. An MPPT controller is
probably a waste of money for a system of 500W or less. In hot weather panel
voltage drops and their efficiency advantage over PWM disappears.

For 12DC appliances I have Alpicool fridge/freezers with minimal starting
surges and older laptops running Win7 Media Center with Hauppauge USB TV
tuners that let them be battery TVs that can record. The Firefox browser
still works in Win7 and I have Boost mobile 4G LTE Internet on an iPhone.
Mine have primary SSDs to boot from and secondary 1TB spinning drives in the
DVD slot for recordings. Their Auto/Air power adapters run on 12V, avoiding
the question of if the power brick needs true sine AC.

For serious independence this is a nice little wood burning camping cook
stove:
https://www.amazon.com/Fltom-Camping-Portable-Sectional-Stainless/dp/B0BG5D1NYP/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1
I suspect the similar models that are available in that price range would be
as good, check the reviews. The 60mm stovepipe doesn't fit any US sizes but
it can be adapted with a flue plug slit with pizza-like cuts out to 60mm
diameter and the bent-down tabs secured with a hose clamp. The cooking
opening appears sized for a wok, it's fine with a frypan with soap rubbed on
the bottom to help the soot wash off.

"Scout" wrote in message news:unoo75$309gk$17@dont-email.me...

>Actually they were US panels stated to be hail proof, and were less
>than 4 years old.
-----
Did your insurance cover the damage?

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:unpab4$334vp$1@dont-email.me...
> "Scout" wrote in message news:unosv3$3109a$1@dont-email.me...
>
> If I can offer a suggestion, instead of a prepacked format. Maybe look at
> the boon-docking and camping areas.
>
> Buy a pure sine wave inverter, batteries and charger as individual units,
> as
> long as high mobility isn't a factor, you can get better and cheaper as
> individual units and have the ability to customize to exactly the format
> you
> want, and upgrade as needed based on your needs/wants.. from increasing
> charging capacity, or going to higher voltages for better efficiencies or
> different battery tech depending on weight, size, or mobility issues.
> Yes, it does take a bit more research and consideration, but all in all
> you
> will get a system tuned to your preferences at a lower price, and if you
> should have a failure.. you only have to replace the part that failed.
> Further you have much more access to replacements when on the road as most
> RV and camping outlets will have at least a few options as replacements
> for
> all of the parts.
>
> So if you're talking a fixed installation for your home, then weight isn't
> really an option and you can save money and get better capacity choosing
> options not limited by weight. If you're RVing you may get away with a
> much
> smaller inverter as often much of the rest can be run directly from DC
> thus
> eliminating the conversion loses and expense of a larger inverter.
>
> The advantage of the repacked is only simplicity and mobility.
>
> -------------------------------
>
> I briefly covered some of the advantages and disadvantages of that
> approach when describing my DIY solar system. To expand, in order to
> design one you need a good quantitative understanding of your requirements
> and to study and understand the capabilities of the separate modules and
> how they interact.
>
> Specifically an AC refrigerator draws a starting surge current that may
> exceed 10 times its run current. You won't find that surge current in its
> spec sheet.

No, but if you contact the manufacturer directly they should be able to
supply that information for any specific model, contact the compressor
manufacturer if it was sourced from a different manufacturer. Worst case
would require real world testing, or be prepared for the worst case. About
the only think I might add is a delay to prevent a rapid restart if power is
interrupted.
But this was covered above under the "research and consideration" clause.
If you don't want to do it.. then design your system for worst case.. I
pretty much promise a packaged system isn't necessarily designed to start
every fridge out there either.

>The inverter, which must be true sine for a fridge or freezer, needs to be
>able to supply the brief overload.

Well, given you get a true sine wave to support running motors.. surge
current requirements are a regular design criteria of most of not all pure
sign converters.

> Then the cable to the battery and the fuse or circuit breaker has to pass
> the 10x higher DC current without an excessive voltage drop that would
> fault the inverter.

Again, typically already addressed and covered by the manufacturers
recommendations on conductor sizing.

> If the battery is Lithium its protection circuit will have maximum surge
> and continuous current ratings which are quite low compared to lead-acid,
> they often can't serve as vehicle starting batteries.

Yes, see "research and consideration" above.

> For my 100Ah Minis it's 100A, or 1200W which is questionable to start a
> compact refrigerator and likely inadequate for a normal sized one. All
> this to keep your beer cold.
>
> The heavy cables from battery to inverter are usually terminated with
> solderless crimp terminals that interconnect on brass bolts. These
> terminals need special large and often expensive crimpers to squeeze them
> tight enough onto the wire. For safety the cables should be fused which
> adds another difficult connection to make.

Or you can find a source that makes custom cables to crimp them on, or can
hit the pluming isle and get some solder and simply solder the ends on, or
use No-crimp ends.

If you must get a crimping tool you can search around and find one that will
do the limited work you need for very little.
Here's one from amazon that handles 8-1/0 awg for less than $26
iCrimp Cable Lug Crimping Tool on the IWISS store front.

Indeed, it's beginning to sound like you're trying to INVENT excuses not to
go with individual components even though it would allow greater
customization and cheaper upgrade route if needs change.

> I've had bad results from the in-line circuit breakers sold for car audio.

Why would you use circuit breakers? Fuses are cheaper, more reliable and
should never need to be replaced unless you have a major failure.

However, if you want circuit breakers.. they are readily available through
RV sources including the boxes, or you can even use combined switch/circuit
breaker. You can even get waterproof though the Boating suppliers.

> The may open at the rated current the first time, then they overheat and
> open at lower current. I think the contacts burn. Carling or Blue Sea
> magnetic breakers are reliable and consistent and have the required DC
> voltage and current ratings (which house breakers don't) but need an
> enclosure and punched or drilled mounting panel.

Why would you use a breaker designed for AC on the DC side of your system?
I mean you can get 150amp DC breakers for less money that are Marine rated
for less than you would pay for 150 amp breaker designed for home use.

Indeed, then of course if you look into the industrial stuff you have a
whole new pile of options and mounting options even breakers rated for AC/DC
that are UL rated.

Then of course, there are all sorts of breakers being offered in the solar
sphere.

> If the battery and inverter aren't fastened together the cables need
> connectors to allow separate handling, and likely a different expensive
> crimper.
> https://powerwerx.com/anderson-sb-connectors-sb50-50amp

Now you're just starting to repeat yourself.

> The likely enclosure for a battery is a NOCO or Atwood boat battery box
> which doesn't have internal space or ventilation for an inverter, it can
> be mounted outside on the cover.

Why would you mount your inverter on the battery box?

Yea, you're definitely into the 'invent excuses' mindset.

<snip>

For those of you actually interested in this, are suggested to do your own
research as a prepackaged system is a series of compromises and probably
will not be best for your specific needs or it is probably easy to
reconfigure in you need to make changes much less deal with components that
die. So do your homework, find people in your area with experience..
boon-dockers (ie people who live off-grid for extended periods) are usually
an excellent source of information particularly when it comes to what brands
and specific items are highly reliable to keep on working and what problems
you may have or need to consider and what to do about those problems.

Some blog and following their experiences, errors, solutions and such may
allow you to get an idea of what you should do, and what hardware you might
want to use or avoid given their experiences.

"Scout" wrote in message news:unrbtk$3f6el$1@dont-email.me...
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:unpab4$334vp$1@dont-email.me...

>
> I briefly covered some of the advantages and disadvantages of that
> approach when describing my DIY solar system. To expand, in order to
> design one you need a good quantitative understanding of your requirements
> and to study and understand the capabilities of the separate modules and
> how they interact.
>
> Specifically an AC refrigerator draws a starting surge current that may
> exceed 10 times its run current. You won't find that surge current in its
> spec sheet.

No, but if you contact the manufacturer directly they should be able to
supply that information for any specific model, contact the compressor
manufacturer if it was sourced from a different manufacturer. Worst case
would require real world testing, or be prepared for the worst case. About
the only think I might add is a delay to prevent a rapid restart if power is
interrupted.

But this was covered above under the "research and consideration" clause.
If you don't want to do it.. then design your system for worst case.. I
pretty much promise a packaged system isn't necessarily designed to start
every fridge out there either.
-------------------------

I listed design considerations. Most aren't difficult, you just have to know
to look for them, like breakers marked for DC . That fell under my job
because the electrical engineers weren't trained in practical considerations
like switch contact rating. One I didn't mention is that indoor solar DC
wiring is to be in metal conduit, which brings up conduit wire fill and
temperature rise derating concerns.

Determining starting surge current can be difficult if the equipment is
imported or old. Getting specs from China is particularly hard, I went
directly to the circuit designer (Liu Liang) for some. Fortunately I haven't
had to call Inner Mongolia about a product that was made there. I have a DVM
that claims to measure peak values but the result aren't close to the
readout for digital oscilloscope traces. Some refrigeration compressors have
a thermistor surge limiter that delays an immediate restart attempt, others
don't and rely on the 10,000A or more surge capacity of the power grid
(breaker short circuit interrupt rating). You have to get past customer
service to engineering to find out, which requires knowing how to talk like
an engineer yourself. Otherwise I'll be treated like a woman having her car
repaired.

The IWISS crimper can be awkward and tricky to use and tends to lengthen the
crimp sleeve and squeeze metal flash out between the jaws. It's my last
resort if I don't have a better tool.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:unpqp1$35gv5$1@dont-email.me...
> "Scout" wrote in message news:unoo75$309gk$17@dont-email.me...
>>Actually they were US panels stated to be hail proof, and were less than 4
>>years old.
> -----
> Did your insurance cover the damage?

Why would my insurance cover their damages?

"Scout" wrote in message news:unrbtk$3f6el$1@dont-email.me...
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message

Why would you mount your inverter on the battery box?
---------------------------------
Because having two large heavy items joined only by cables invites excessive
strains on the cable connections. If the inverter is on the box lid (or
side) the heavy cables are short, the battery terminals still accessible,
and the combination can be carried as a unit. The battery is in an enclosure
designed to be safe for it. The inverter has airflow access all around,
which it might not if on the side and pushed against a wall. A charger and
PWM controller could go on the exposed side but still need some airflow.

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/reference/2010_ABYCexcerpts.pdf
The 7" lead rule allows an in-line fuseholder made with a loop of cable to
reach from a terminal to outside the box, where it shouldn't ignite hydrogen
if the fuse blows violently and the cap isn't on. The most likely battery
short is from the wrench when tightening the nuts on the inverter studs. The
fuse can be removed as a safety disconnect.

Packaging concerns like this tend to be ignored by designers without much
practical experience. For a homeowner wood is the only readily available and
easily worked structural material, but it's a fire hazard around high
powered electricity. Sheet metal requires different equipment and skills.
When I started Transite was the temperature resistant electrical insulator
with decent structural strength, then asbestos was banned and nothing has
fully replaced it. Glass-epoxy circuit board chars and becomes conductive if
overheated. The Teflon equivalent I used for microwave radio isn't as rigid.
I've repaired an expensive custom circuit board with a blackened hole where
the main chip used to be.
https://www.adafruit.com/product/1281?gad_source=1
ZIF test sockets are available molded from higher temperature material than
standard sockets.

I've been using the handrail and exterior column steel from a scrapped
outdoor pool for projects, it's 22 ga galvanized and extremely durable
outdoors. However I have an anvil to straighten and flatten it, a large
metal shear and a corner notcher to cut it and a press brake to bend it. I
think I was chosen over other techs to build many prototype projects because
my results could look like commercial products instead of being tacked to a
Bud chassis.

"Scout" wrote in message news:unrinp$3g7hb$1@dont-email.me...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:unpqp1$35gv5$1@dont-email.me...
> "Scout" wrote in message news:unoo75$309gk$17@dont-email.me...
>>Actually they were US panels stated to be hail proof, and were less than 4
>>years old.
> -----
> Did your insurance cover the damage?

Why would my insurance cover their damages?
--------------------------------

I wouldn't know, that depends on the specific coverage and exclusions in
your homeowners policy.

Scout wrote:

>
>
> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:unmrdg$2k3bk$1@dont-email.me...
> > "cshenk" wrote in message
> > news:4cucnah3_8rNJgP4nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com... Jim Wilkins
> > wrote:
> > > The simple and safe, though not cheapest, backup is a packaged
> > > power station such as a Jackery.
> >
> > Perfect! I was about to ask for thoughts on the Jackery setups.
>
> If I can offer a suggestion, instead of a prepacked format. Maybe
> look at the boon-docking and camping areas.
>
> Buy a pure sine wave inverter, batteries and charger as individual
> units, as long as high mobility isn't a factor, you can get better
> and cheaper as individual units and have the ability to customize to
> exactly the format you want, and upgrade as needed based on your
> needs/wants.. from increasing charging capacity, or going to higher
> voltages for better efficiencies or different battery tech depending
> on weight, size, or mobility issues. Yes, it does take a bit more
> research and consideration, but all in all you will get a system
> tuned to your preferences at a lower price, and if you should have a
> failure.. you only have to replace the part that failed. Further you
> have much more access to replacements when on the road as most RV and
> camping outlets will have at least a few options as replacements for
> all of the parts.
>
> So if you're talking a fixed installation for your home, then weight
> isn't really an option and you can save money and get better capacity
> choosing options not limited by weight. If you're RVing you may get
> away with a much smaller inverter as often much of the rest can be
> run directly from DC thus eliminating the conversion loses and
> expense of a larger inverter.
>
> The advantage of the repacked is only simplicity and mobility.

Pre-packed and simplicity is the aim this time. There are others very
similar to the Jackery, that I have looked at too. I am (on the
Jackery) replacing an awkward gas/keri backyard portable generator with
something I can just pickup and bring inside and plug on with no 75+
foot cables strung everywhere.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "cshenk" wrote in message
> news:f8KdnXJdAcArXQP4nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> Don't be so tied to battery backups. It's not a 'can't afford it yet'
> in the way you seem to be pushing. It's 'may add a 4-6 hour unit' to
> prevent higher peak hour consumption rates'. With no cut-out switch,
> it's only usable when grid is up. The potential jackery backup is for
> use during grid down times for basic comfort.
>
> You seem to address this from 'desirement'. This is very different
> from my point view which is 'requirement' based.
>
> The math doesn't work out here on 'bang for the buck'. You did catch
> that I only produce 92% of my annual needs' right? A honkin' big
> backup battery setup would not only never fill, some of it would be
> lost whereas I am protected from any loss as it is as that storage is
> nown the problem of the grid. I get all of it back with no loss.
>
> ---------------------------
>
> I didn't check the details, but this is a very competitive price per
> KWH and hopefully a good sign of a continuing downward trend.
>
https://sungoldpower.com/collections/new-years-sale/products/5-12kwh-powerwall-lifepo4-lithium-battery-sg48100m
>
> Being LiFePO4 it doesn't ever need to fill, the suggested charge
> level for maximum life is 60-80%. It or similar could be charged from
> 120VAC when your rate is low and used when it's high, or saved for
> outages, avoiding the expense of new panels and their installation
> and wiring.
>
> However the IRS apparently doesn't allow a Form 5695 deduction for
> batteries not exclusively charged by alternate energy. I arranged my
> system so only the batteries for daily cycling I bought used at a
> flea market and didn't claim are charged with a prioritized mix of
> solar then grid when solar output is low or uncertain. In clear
> weather I switch the grid input off and discharge the battery
> overnight. The batteries bought new and claimed are separately solar
> charged in clear weather and saved for outage backup.
>
> The most common use of the system is to go on battery when a night
> squall line or thunderstorm is predicted, so my electronics are
> isolated from the power line.
>
> If you have a secure location like an enclosed deck a Jackery etc
> could be charged outdoors from free-standing panels either aimed due
> south or occasionally shifted toward the sun. I made fold-out panel
> rear supports from 1/2" electrical conduit bent into a V. On clear
> days my batteries recharge before noon and the initial 10AM panel aim
> is enough. 100W panels are now below $70.
>
> Since I build whatever I want I have no experience with Jackerys or
> similar. I do have an old Harbor Freight 5-in-1 power pack refitted
> with LiFePO4 but 18Ah (216Wh) won't run much overnight.

That is similar to my possible 4-6 hour battery. Not ready to do it in
next year. Might do it in 2 years.

Scout wrote:

>
>
> "cshenk" <cshenk@virginia-beach.net> wrote in message
> news:SIednfevasrLUwP4nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com...
> > Scout wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You could also take a bath if a hail storm comes through 3 years
> > > later and wipes out 90% of your panels.. How long would it then
> > > take to even think of breaking even?
> >
> >
> > Hi Scout. You might want to look up newer stats. Thats the old
> > China panels.
>
>
> Actually they were US panels stated to be hail proof, and were less
> than 4 years old.

That's probably it. Some of the other components (inverters maybe?)
come from Canada.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "Scout" wrote in message news:unoo75$309gk$17@dont-email.me...
> > Actually they were US panels stated to be hail proof, and were less
> > than 4 years old.
> -----
> Did your insurance cover the damage?

There's no sign Scout had any hail damage. He only asked me about
coverage 'if' something hit me.

On 13 Jan 2024, "cshenk" <cshenk@virginia-beach.net> posted some
news:zT6dnbJ-hfQ-gz74nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com:

> Scout wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:unmrdg$2k3bk$1@dont-email.me...
>> > "cshenk" wrote in message
>> > news:4cucnah3_8rNJgP4nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com... Jim Wilkins
>> > wrote:
>> > > The simple and safe, though not cheapest, backup is a packaged
>> > > power station such as a Jackery.
>> >
>> > Perfect! I was about to ask for thoughts on the Jackery setups.
>>
>> If I can offer a suggestion, instead of a prepacked format. Maybe
>> look at the boon-docking and camping areas.
>>
>> Buy a pure sine wave inverter, batteries and charger as individual
>> units, as long as high mobility isn't a factor, you can get better
>> and cheaper as individual units and have the ability to customize to
>> exactly the format you want, and upgrade as needed based on your
>> needs/wants.. from increasing charging capacity, or going to higher
>> voltages for better efficiencies or different battery tech depending
>> on weight, size, or mobility issues. Yes, it does take a bit more
>> research and consideration, but all in all you will get a system
>> tuned to your preferences at a lower price, and if you should have a
>> failure.. you only have to replace the part that failed. Further you
>> have much more access to replacements when on the road as most RV and
>> camping outlets will have at least a few options as replacements for
>> all of the parts.
>>
>> So if you're talking a fixed installation for your home, then weight
>> isn't really an option and you can save money and get better capacity
>> choosing options not limited by weight. If you're RVing you may get
>> away with a much smaller inverter as often much of the rest can be
>> run directly from DC thus eliminating the conversion loses and
>> expense of a larger inverter.
>>
>> The advantage of the repacked is only simplicity and mobility.
>
> Pre-packed and simplicity is the aim this time. There are others very
> similar to the Jackery, that I have looked at too. I am (on the
> Jackery) replacing an awkward gas/keri backyard portable generator
> with something I can just pickup and bring inside and plug on with no
> 75+ foot cables strung everywhere.

Buy an adapter for your Telsa and just plug in your house. That's what
Gavin Newsom says you can do.

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:-W-dna87UK_Uvj74nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@giganews.com...

That is similar to my possible 4-6 hour battery. Not ready to do it in
next year. Might do it in 2 years.

--------------------------

https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-support-search-content?contentId=17354

Operating on limited backup power is easier with lower powered appliances.
My main AC powered fridge is a 4.3 cubic foot Magic Chef that must be
manually defrosted. The defrost cycle of a frost-free is a power hog.
Usually it's plugged into the wall and allowed to coast without being opened
during short outages.

For longer ones that reach meal times it goes onto my homebrew version of
the Jackery, made from a commercial server room UPS with 2 KWH of
solar-charged extra batteries. If you find one cheap a large true sine
server UPS can make a nice backup system but setting it up isn't for
beginners. Mine was free because the flea market seller didn't know how to
remove the old swollen batteries and was about to pack and leave.

https://www.sunwize.com/tech-notes/should-i-add-solar-to-my-ups-system/
It can be the lowest cost option if you are up to it. When the outage risk
is high it can run its loads from the grid and automatically switch to
battery when the grid fails, and back when it's restored, as a UPS is meant
to. They do consume power internally and cost something to leave on
continuously.

"Polettik" wrote in message news:unvcl9$bg2$1@toxic.dizum.net...

Buy an adapter for your Telsa and just plug in your house. That's what
Gavin Newsom says you can do.

----------------------------------

https://calmatters.org/environment/2023/07/california-electric-cars-bidirectional-charging/

Lets also make Direct Deposit bidirectional, so the bank account they
deposit your Social Security into could be temporarily debited to make up
deficits, if you have more than they know you need.

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:-W-dna87UK_Uvj74nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@giganews.com...

That is similar to my possible 4-6 hour battery. Not ready to do it in
next year. Might do it in 2 years.

-----------------------------

I use laptops whose batteries protect them from power outages, so I can
afford a few minutes to reconfigure to battery power. If you need continuous
power for a desktop a power station may or may not provide it with a UPS
function. Apparently the Jackery 1000 doesn't, the 2000 does. One indication
is the AC power cord plugging in directly instead of running a small
external AC>DC power brick.

https://www.storagereview.com/review/portable-power-stations-actually-work-pretty-well-as-a-ups

Internet weather radar gives a pretty good view of approaching storms and
fronts. When I hear approaching thunder I pull the UPS wall plug and
continue working on my spreadsheets or program on isolated battery power
until the storm has passed.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:unrp0i$3h5b2$1@dont-email.me...
>
>
> "Scout" wrote in message news:unrinp$3g7hb$1@dont-email.me...
>
>
>
> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:unpqp1$35gv5$1@dont-email.me...
>> "Scout" wrote in message news:unoo75$309gk$17@dont-email.me...
>>>Actually they were US panels stated to be hail proof, and were less than
>>>4 years old.
>> -----
>> Did your insurance cover the damage?
>
> Why would my insurance cover their damages?
> --------------------------------
>
> I wouldn't know, that depends on the specific coverage and exclusions in
> your homeowners policy.

Why would my policy cover them?

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:unrodd$3h2bv$1@dont-email.me...
> "Scout" wrote in message news:unrbtk$3f6el$1@dont-email.me...
> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> Why would you mount your inverter on the battery box?
> ---------------------------------
> Because having two large heavy items joined only by cables invites
> excessive strains on the cable connections.

and what sort of stain do you think would likely exist in a garage or shed,
or outdoor enclosure?

IOW, you are making unfounded assumptions to the nature of the system.

Try again when you can get up to speed.

Polettik wrote:

> On 13 Jan 2024, "cshenk" <cshenk@virginia-beach.net> posted some
> news:zT6dnbJ-hfQ-gz74nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com:
>
> > Scout wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:unmrdg$2k3bk$1@dont-email.me...
> >> > "cshenk" wrote in message
> >> > news:4cucnah3_8rNJgP4nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com... Jim
> Wilkins >> > wrote:
> >> > > The simple and safe, though not cheapest, backup is a packaged
> >> > > power station such as a Jackery.
> >> >
> >> > Perfect! I was about to ask for thoughts on the Jackery setups.
> >>
> >> If I can offer a suggestion, instead of a prepacked format. Maybe
> >> look at the boon-docking and camping areas.
> >>
> >> Buy a pure sine wave inverter, batteries and charger as individual
> >> units, as long as high mobility isn't a factor, you can get better
> >> and cheaper as individual units and have the ability to customize
> to >> exactly the format you want, and upgrade as needed based on your
> >> needs/wants.. from increasing charging capacity, or going to higher
> >> voltages for better efficiencies or different battery tech
> depending >> on weight, size, or mobility issues. Yes, it does take
> a bit more >> research and consideration, but all in all you will get
> a system >> tuned to your preferences at a lower price, and if you
> should have a >> failure.. you only have to replace the part that
> failed. Further you >> have much more access to replacements when on
> the road as most RV and >> camping outlets will have at least a few
> options as replacements for >> all of the parts.
> >>
> >> So if you're talking a fixed installation for your home, then
> weight >> isn't really an option and you can save money and get
> better capacity >> choosing options not limited by weight. If you're
> RVing you may get >> away with a much smaller inverter as often much
> of the rest can be >> run directly from DC thus eliminating the
> conversion loses and >> expense of a larger inverter.
> >>
> >> The advantage of the repacked is only simplicity and mobility.
> >
> > Pre-packed and simplicity is the aim this time. There are others
> > very similar to the Jackery, that I have looked at too. I am (on
> > the Jackery) replacing an awkward gas/keri backyard portable
> > generator with something I can just pickup and bring inside and
> > plug on with no 75+ foot cables strung everywhere.
>
> Buy an adapter for your Telsa and just plug in your house. That's
> what Gavin Newsom says you can do.

I don't know who you meant to reply to but it's not related to anything
I said or need.

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:d-2cnfiUIsRl4zj4nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@giganews.com...

Polettik wrote:

>
> Buy an adapter for your Telsa and just plug in your house. That's
> what Gavin Newsom says you can do.

I don't know who you meant to reply to but it's not related to anything
I said or need.

--------------------------
These unmoderated Usenet discussion groups are open and free to all, for
better or worse, and rarely stay on the original topic for long. I've put up
with the noise for 30+ years.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "cshenk" wrote in message
> news:d-2cnfiUIsRl4zj4nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> Polettik wrote:
>
> >
> > Buy an adapter for your Telsa and just plug in your house. That's
> > what Gavin Newsom says you can do.
>
> I don't know who you meant to reply to but it's not related to
> anything I said or need.
>
> --------------------------
> These unmoderated Usenet discussion groups are open and free to all,
> for better or worse, and rarely stay on the original topic for long.
> I've put up with the noise for 30+ years.

I'm familiar with Usenet, just wasn't sure if you thought it was for
me. I suspect you meant someone with a Tesla.

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:TamdnQKwzOneazv4nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@giganews.com...

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "cshenk" wrote in message
> news:d-2cnfiUIsRl4zj4nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> Polettik wrote:
> > Buy an adapter for your Telsa and just plug in your house. That's
> > what Gavin Newsom says you can do.
>
> I don't know who you meant to reply to but it's not related to
> anything I said or need.
>
I'm familiar with Usenet, just wasn't sure if you thought it was for
me. I suspect you meant someone with a Tesla.

------------------------
Wasn't me, see above. I commented on the abuse potential with the analogy to
Direct Deposit. Each discharge costs a bit of lifespan.

Other electric vehicles are capable of supplying 120V AC from their battery.
https://www.cars.com/articles/whats-bidirectional-charging-and-which-evs-offer-it-457608/

RVs have long had a similar capability but they separate the starting
battery from the one that powers appliances, so you don't drain the starting
battery and become stranded. A plug-in hybrid could still run on gasoline if
discharged.

I handled field returns of medical equipment Lithiums which kept a log of
their temperature and charge/discharge history. Typically the trained
professionals who used the equipment followed charging procedure for about 3
months before abandoning it and randomly recharging only when they went
empty. I can't expect anyone else to track and manage remaining battery
capacity better than they did. A study found that most VCRs flashed 12:00
because setting the time was too difficult or bothersome.

I sometimes forget to check and let remaining battery capacity fall lower
than it should be, and I designed the system with lighted wall displays
showing battery charge level. I almost let supper on the woodstove boil over
a few minutes ago despite a remote temperature display above the computer.
Life has too many distractions to expect someone to watch backup battery
level and not drain their car too far.