Dechucka wrote:

> On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
> > On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> > > On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
> > > > When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
> > >
> > > Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
> > > Go figure
> >
> > We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
> > power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>
> That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
> achieved.

Easy, big backup power and located where sun is the norm, clouds and
rain not much so.

PS: testing the waters with an older 2021 post.

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:QemcnYnT1KJXvwH4nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com...

Dechucka wrote:

> On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
> > On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> > > On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
> > > > When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
> > >
> > > Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
> > > Go figure
> >
> > We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
> > power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>
> That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
> achieved.

Easy, big backup power and located where sun is the norm, clouds and
rain not much so.

PS: testing the waters with an older 2021 post.
-------------------------
JW was playing a lawyer's word game with what "solar" means, discounting
solar-derived electricity stored chemically in batteries, until I pointed
out that his strict literal definition would also require solar energy to be
stored and used as photons instead of converted to electricity.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "cshenk" wrote in message
> news:QemcnYnT1KJXvwH4nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> Dechucka wrote:
>
> > On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
> >> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> >> > On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
> >> > > When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
> >> >
> >> > Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
> >> > Go figure
> > >
> >> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
> >> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
> >
> > That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
> > achieved.
>
> Easy, big backup power and located where sun is the norm, clouds and
> rain not much so.
>
> PS: testing the waters with an older 2021 post.
> -------------------------
> JW was playing a lawyer's word game with what "solar" means,
> discounting solar-derived electricity stored chemically in batteries,
> until I pointed out that his strict literal definition would also
> require solar energy to be stored and used as photons instead of
> converted to electricity.

LOL! Anyway, I opted to not have battery backup at my place. Power
outages are rare and seldom more than an hour.

"cshenk" <cshenk@virginia-beach.net> wrote in message
news:QemcnYnT1KJXvwH4nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Dechucka wrote:
>
>> On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> > On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>> > > On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>> > > > When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>> > >
>> > > Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
>> > > Go figure
>> >
>> > We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>> > power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>
>> That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
>> achieved.
>
> Easy, big backup power

Ok.. and how much are you going to spend on getting and maintaining such a
system?

How large will it need to be to charge your EV each day as well?

So now you're effectively paying twice as much for electricity.. what was
the benefit again?

On 1/8/2024 10:37 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "cshenk"  wrote in message
> news:QemcnYnT1KJXvwH4nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> Dechucka wrote:
>
>> On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> > On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>> > > On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>> > > > When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>> > >
>> > > Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
>> > > Go  figure
>> >
>> > We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>> > power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>
>> That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
>> achieved.
>
> Easy, big backup power and located where sun is the norm, clouds and
> rain not much so.
>
> PS: testing the waters with an older 2021 post.
> -------------------------
> JW was playing a lawyer's word game with what "solar" means, discounting
> solar-derived electricity stored chemically in batteries, until I
> pointed out that his strict literal definition would also require solar
> energy to be stored and used as photons instead of converted to
> electricity.
>
If you want to be pedantic, all power is ultimately gravity power.
I was going to say all power is ultimately solar, but even the
fusion that powers stars (and creates the radioactive metals used
in nuclear power) is the result of gravity compressing the star's
contents. But that's not what anybody normally means when talking
about solar.

On 1/8/2024 11:20 AM, cshenk wrote:
>
> ... I opted to not have battery backup at my place. Power
> outages are rare and seldom more than an hour.
>
Certainly, until that's no longer true. It's like saying "I opted
not to have a fire extinguisher at home. Home fires are rare and
are seldom catastrophic." It's like saying "I don't have car
liability insurance. I don't get in accidents, and if I did they
would be minor ones and not my fault." It's like saying "I don't
have any food storage. Food shortages at my local grocery are rare
and seldom last long." No, you don't need an alternate home power
source, or a fire extinguisher, or liability insurance, or food storage,
or take any other risk-avoidance or emergency prepared measures.
Until you do, and if you don't have it by then it will be too late.

"Scout" wrote in message news:unhfak$1koaa$2@dont-email.me...

Ok.. and how much are you going to spend on getting and maintaining such a
system?

How large will it need to be to charge your EV each day as well?

So now you're effectively paying twice as much for electricity.. what was
the benefit again?

---------------------------------

The break-even point to operate my system is between $0.20 and $0.30 per
KWH, depending on claimed vs realized battery life, which in turn depends on
how much I can squeeze from them with monitoring and careful maintenance.
Lead-acids have lasted me up to 15 years. It will never repay its capital
cost (which was less than a riding mower) but neither will a backup
generator, they are for independent reliability rather than economics.

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:z2ZmN.171077$7sbb.78501@fx16.iad...

If you want to be pedantic, all power is ultimately gravity power.
I was going to say all power is ultimately solar, but even the
fusion that powers stars (and creates the radioactive metals used
in nuclear power) is the result of gravity compressing the star's
contents. But that's not what anybody normally means when talking
about solar.

--------------------------

I firmly do NOT want to be pedantic, it hinders analyzing and solving
problems. Although I have a science degree that covered Thermodynamics and
several years of Physics I "gravitated' to practical engineering, expanding
the scribbled dreams of Ph.D. theoreticians into fleshed-out designs,
building them and making them work. Do you remember me as jsw@mitre.org?

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:z2ZmN.171077$7sbb.78501@fx16.iad...

If you want to be pedantic, all power is ultimately gravity power.
I was going to say all power is ultimately solar, but even the
fusion that powers stars (and creates the radioactive metals used
in nuclear power) is the result of gravity compressing the star's
contents. But that's not what anybody normally means when talking
about solar.

----------------------

Not so.
https://phys.libretexts.org/Courses/HACC_Central_Pennsylvania%27s_Community_College/Astronomy_103%3A_Introduction_to_Planetary_Astronomy/13%3A_The_Sun/13.04%3A_Nuclear_Fusion

Gravity is an enabler to overcome electrostatic repulsion, but not a sine
qua non for fusion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon

Iron and nickel are the end products of fusion, beyond them it becomes
endothermic. The heavier elements are formed by neutron capture in
supernovae, neutron stars and nuclear reactors.
https://www.astronomy.com/science/ask-astro-how-do-stars-make-elements-heavier-than-iron/

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:0aZmN.95241$q3F7.60338@fx45.iad...

On 1/8/2024 11:20 AM, cshenk wrote:
>
> ... I opted to not have battery backup at my place. Power
> outages are rare and seldom more than an hour.
>
Certainly, until that's no longer true. It's like saying "I opted
not to have a fire extinguisher at home. Home fires are rare and
are seldom catastrophic." It's like saying "I don't have car
liability insurance. I don't get in accidents, and if I did they
would be minor ones and not my fault." It's like saying "I don't
have any food storage. Food shortages at my local grocery are rare
and seldom last long." No, you don't need an alternate home power
source, or a fire extinguisher, or liability insurance, or food storage,
or take any other risk-avoidance or emergency prepared measures.
Until you do, and if you don't have it by then it will be too late.

------------------------------

Covid showed that we should increase our food storage, so I added a 12V DC
fridge+freezer that runs on solar/battery/grid/generator power, an Alpicool
T60. Ice and wind storm power outages here have lasted over a week.

Just Wondering wrote:

> On 1/8/2024 11:20 AM, cshenk wrote:
> >
> > ... I opted to not have battery backup at my place. Power
> > outages are rare and seldom more than an hour.
> >
> Certainly, until that's no longer true. It's like saying "I opted
> not to have a fire extinguisher at home. Home fires are rare and
> are seldom catastrophic." It's like saying "I don't have car
> liability insurance. I don't get in accidents, and if I did they
> would be minor ones and not my fault." It's like saying "I don't
> have any food storage. Food shortages at my local grocery are rare
> and seldom last long." No, you don't need an alternate home power
> source, or a fire extinguisher, or liability insurance, or food
> storage, or take any other risk-avoidance or emergency prepared
> measures. Until you do, and if you don't have it by then it will be
> too late.

Happy dance! There are people here! I know it's hard to get new
members who have a grain of sanity. alt.solar seems dead and at least
alternative energy is a good fit here!

On the battery part, I'll simply be in the same boat as others.

In a perfect world, my solar would produce all my needs and have enough
left over for an EV car or two. It doesn't due to blocked areas or
wrong slope on parts of the roof. I'm at 92% of my needs. Frankly
laying out 40k worth of lithium batteries for my house, isn't passing
any sanity/fiscal tests.

Carol

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "Just Wondering" wrote in message
> news:0aZmN.95241$q3F7.60338@fx45.iad...
>
> On 1/8/2024 11:20 AM, cshenk wrote:
> >
> > ... I opted to not have battery backup at my place. Power
> > outages are rare and seldom more than an hour.
> >
> Certainly, until that's no longer true. It's like saying "I opted
> not to have a fire extinguisher at home. Home fires are rare and
> are seldom catastrophic." (snips)
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Covid showed that we should increase our food storage, so I added a
> 12V DC fridge+freezer that runs on solar/battery/grid/generator
> power, an Alpicool T60. Ice and wind storm power outages here have
> lasted over a week.

Mom was divorced and Dad didn't pay the 51$ child support. She always
put a bit of shelf stable foods aside, having been raised in the
depression then the WWII years of rationing. I've always done that
too. We were fine. It helped a LOT that I'm a scratch cook.

She did a fine job raising us 3. None of us experienced more than a
slight frown if we had to swap a planned dish over lack of supplies
during the covid hoarding.

The money just wasn't there to go backups but after I pay off the last
of the solar, I'll look at 1 battery to add to it.

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:Gx-cnQxsw_2RLAH4nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com...

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "Just Wondering" wrote in message
> news:0aZmN.95241$q3F7.60338@fx45.iad...
> ...

The money just wasn't there to go backups but after I pay off the last
of the solar, I'll look at 1 battery to add to it.

----------------------
If you have commercially installed grid-tied solar adding a battery may not
be possible and would be no help during an outage, since the controller
shuts down when grid power fails, to prevent back-feeding that could shock
line workers. The grid serves as your storage, with any excess of your
output over your consumption recorded by the two-way electric meter.

The simple and safe, though not cheapest, backup is a packaged power station
such as a Jackery. If you are experienced in the design and construction of
electrical equipment a comparable system can be assembled from
single-purpose modules for about half or less the cost.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BX8S2VJ5/ref=nav_signin?sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9ocXBfc2hhcmVk&th=1
https://www.bestekdirect.com/bestek-500W-power-inverter

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:unhung$1mvqc$1@dont-email.me...
> "Scout" wrote in message news:unhfak$1koaa$2@dont-email.me...
>
> Ok.. and how much are you going to spend on getting and maintaining such a
> system?
>
> How large will it need to be to charge your EV each day as well?
>
> So now you're effectively paying twice as much for electricity.. what was
> the benefit again?
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> The break-even point to operate my system is between $0.20 and $0.30 per
> KWH, depending on claimed vs realized battery life, which in turn depends
> on how much I can squeeze from them with monitoring and careful
> maintenance.

Given in most areas rates are far below that. I think I'm paying $0.135 per
kWhr right now.

It would take a rather large increase in rates to even make such a system
viable, assuming your assumptions work out.

You could also take a bath if a hail storm comes through 3 years later and
wipes out 90% of your panels.. How long would it then take to even think of
breaking even?

> Lead-acids have lasted me up to 15 years. It will never repay its capital
> cost (which was less than a riding mower) but neither will a backup
> generator, they are for independent reliability rather than economics.

Yes, but I can get a backup generator for a small fraction of the cost of a
solar system, and have much greater reliability when I need it. Since all I
really have to buy is a the generator head, and a few bits to adapt it to my
tractor and safe guard my tractor for unmonitored use (low oil pressure and
high temperature shut off primarily). I think the cost when I got it was
$600 for a 10kW unit delivered. Some welding, a bit of scrap mental, and
maybe about $150 in drive shaft, sprockets, chain, bearings and such.
Best part is the whole thing is totally portable and I can now have serious
electric power anywhere I need. Let's me use a small light cheap electric
chain saw instead of a much heavier and more expensive conventional one for
cutting brush and small trees when clearing fence lines and such. Need to
build something I can now have power on site without having the expense or
delay of trying to get in a temporary power hookup.

"Scout" wrote in message news:unjgg0$20t0h$10@dont-email.me...
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:unhung$1mvqc$1@dont-email.me...
> "Scout" wrote in message news:unhfak$1koaa$2@dont-email.me...
>
> Ok.. and how much are you going to spend on getting and maintaining such a
> system?
>
> How large will it need to be to charge your EV each day as well?
>
> So now you're effectively paying twice as much for electricity.. what was
> the benefit again?
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> The break-even point to operate my system is between $0.20 and $0.30 per
> KWH, depending on claimed vs realized battery life, which in turn depends
> on how much I can squeeze from them with monitoring and careful
> maintenance.

Given in most areas rates are far below that. I think I'm paying $0.135 per
kWhr right now.

It would take a rather large increase in rates to even make such a system
viable, assuming your assumptions work out.

You could also take a bath if a hail storm comes through 3 years later and
wipes out 90% of your panels.. How long would it then take to even think of
breaking even?

> Lead-acids have lasted me up to 15 years. It will never repay its capital
> cost (which was less than a riding mower) but neither will a backup
> generator, they are for independent reliability rather than economics.

Yes, but I can get a backup generator for a small fraction of the cost of a
solar system, and have much greater reliability when I need it. Since all I
really have to buy is a the generator head, and a few bits to adapt it to my
tractor and safe guard my tractor for unmonitored use (low oil pressure and
high temperature shut off primarily). I think the cost when I got it was
$600 for a 10kW unit delivered. Some welding, a bit of scrap mental, and
maybe about $150 in drive shaft, sprockets, chain, bearings and such.
Best part is the whole thing is totally portable and I can now have serious
electric power anywhere I need. Let's me use a small light cheap electric
chain saw instead of a much heavier and more expensive conventional one for
cutting brush and small trees when clearing fence lines and such. Need to
build something I can now have power on site without having the expense or
delay of trying to get in a temporary power hookup.

---------------------------------

The rate here is presently $0.22 / KWH and was $0.33 during the previous
billing cycle. A rough measurement of electricity vs gasoline for my small
inverter generator showed nearly $1 per KWH.

The worst case I plan for is a blizzard with ice forming on everything,
which limits outdoor generator use because I don't have a fireproof covered
but ventilated space for one away from the house, and may not be able to get
to it without risking a fall, at my age a serious consideration. Clearing
the path to the woodshed can be slow and difficult enough. I don't
completely trust rubber fuel lines not to crack and leak, or carb float
valves not to stick and flood the ground.

I gassed the motorcycle at a station I'd never used before, and when I
stopped at work smelled gas; the carbs were overflowing. The gas had been
wet and picked up rust which condensed out into balls like kidney stones in
the engine-warmed carburetors and blocked the float valves from closing. I
had to disassemble and clean the four carbs on my lab bench.

I saved a failed alternator to rebuild and connect to the PTO on my tractor
to have battery 12V for the winch and inverter 120V for tools. I haven't
bothered to do it because the only remote power I've needed was compressed
air at the sawmill, from a long hose back to the house. The trees here are
mature oaks, much too big for an electric chainsaw. A 20" bar is barely
enough.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "Just Wondering" wrote in message
> news:z2ZmN.171077$7sbb.78501@fx16.iad...
>
> If you want to be pedantic, all power is ultimately gravity power.
> I was going to say all power is ultimately solar, but even the
> fusion that powers stars (and creates the radioactive metals used
> in nuclear power) is the result of gravity compressing the star's
> contents. But that's not what anybody normally means when talking
> about solar.
>
> --------------------------
>
> I firmly do NOT want to be pedantic, it hinders analyzing and solving
> problems. Although I have a science degree that covered
> Thermodynamics and several years of Physics I "gravitated' to
> practical engineering, expanding the scribbled dreams of Ph.D.
> theoreticians into fleshed-out designs, building them and making them
> work. Do you remember me as jsw@mitre.org?

One of the troubles here that I have, is not a 'bad one' to have. My
science background is primarily 'biology realm' with some chemistry
allowed to lay fallow after my attempt to put myself through college.
I'm probably 'undereducated' by the standards of some here for the
types of knowledge background.

Grin, should be fun to drop a 'silly Sally' into the mix! My skills
are SQL programming, Navy Education and Training, heavy 'Data analysis'
and directing slim resources for maximum benefit to force generation
(getting the right trained sailor to the right ship when needed).

Spent some time post 26year Navy career (E8) in contracting services
and Mitre rings a bell though I never worked for them. I was mostly
CSC then moved to GS-13(NETC then NAVIFOR).

Scout wrote:

>
>
> "cshenk" <cshenk@virginia-beach.net> wrote in message
> news:QemcnYnT1KJXvwH4nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com...
> > Dechucka wrote:
> >
> > > On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
> >>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> >>> > On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
> >>> > > When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
> >>> >
> >>> > Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
> >>> > Go figure
> > > >
> >>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
> >>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
> > >
> > > That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality
> > > is achieved.
> >
> > Easy, big backup power
>
> Ok.. and how much are you going to spend on getting and maintaining
> such a system?
>
> How large will it need to be to charge your EV each day as well?
>
> So now you're effectively paying twice as much for electricity.. what
> was the benefit again?

Easy Scout! I said that was the answer to the setup parameters of the
question. You change it here to a 'bang for the buck' problem but the
2 are distinctly different problems.

If you want to change to 'best bang for the buck with profits soon',
then you have to add in local factors and cost analysis. I'm game but
don't try to swap back and forth between them ok?

Simple answer to 'bang for the buck' with or without home battery
system is 'rarely worth it unless thinking small'. If the grid power
after sundown is 'peak hourly rate', a smaller battery of 4-6kWh may
pay off as in theory, you'll now only draw from the grid at the lowest
rate. Check your company though as some charge lowest rate it you meet
or exceed a set amount of solar production vs use. I don't have much
detail on that other than my grid power costs more from 4pm-9pm and I
pay that.

To cover a week's backup power, you have to overgenerate to your usage
and then the battery costs will normally equal the cost of the panels.
This doubles your 'payoff to profit time'. For most people, this is
where solar 'fails' the budget model. Without the battery, or a small
one to deal with minor nuisance outages, it may work. Small ones only
cover a few hours. Layman's terms: You get what you pay for but best
not buy more than you need.

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:S_WdnbFYGq2w_AD4nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@giganews.com...

One of the troubles here that I have, is not a 'bad one' to have. My
science background is primarily 'biology realm' with some chemistry
allowed to lay fallow after my attempt to put myself through college.
I'm probably 'undereducated' by the standards of some here for the
types of knowledge background.

Grin, should be fun to drop a 'silly Sally' into the mix! My skills
are SQL programming, Navy Education and Training, heavy 'Data analysis'
and directing slim resources for maximum benefit to force generation
(getting the right trained sailor to the right ship when needed).

Spent some time post 26year Navy career (E8) in contracting services
and Mitre rings a bell though I never worked for them. I was mostly
CSC then moved to GS-13(NETC then NAVIFOR).

------------------------
Mitre worked more with the Air Force, FAA et al. It was structured as a
private non-profit so we didn't have GS grades, or much bureaucratic
interference.

That's a pretty solid resume. I benefitted from someone getting the right
trained soldier to where he was needed. I had listed French and German on
the "dream sheet" requesting an assignment and was sent to Germany instead
of Vietnam. I loved being there and driving around the countryside between
our field communications sites but many Americans didn't, to the extent of
reenlisting to go back to Saigon. In rural areas they didn't speak English
and hadn't been contaminated by us.

I was a hardware guy with programming experience mainly limited to low level
machine control. Being cooped up alone in the lab like Drosselmeyer the
toymaker definitely isn't for everyone. Dan Aykroyd's character in Spies
Like Us was close to my reality. His office was in the boiler room, mine was
beside it, and like him I know a little Russian and KGB = Komitet
Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti.

On 1/8/2024 7:35 PM, cshenk wrote:
> Jim Wilkins wrote:
>
>> "Just Wondering" wrote in message
>> news:0aZmN.95241$q3F7.60338@fx45.iad...
>>
>> On 1/8/2024 11:20 AM, cshenk wrote:
>>>
>>> ... I opted to not have battery backup at my place. Power
>>> outages are rare and seldom more than an hour.
>>>
>> Certainly, until that's no longer true. It's like saying "I opted
>> not to have a fire extinguisher at home. Home fires are rare and
>> are seldom catastrophic." (snips)
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Covid showed that we should increase our food storage, so I added a
>> 12V DC fridge+freezer that runs on solar/battery/grid/generator
>> power, an Alpicool T60. Ice and wind storm power outages here have
>> lasted over a week.
>
> Mom was divorced and Dad didn't pay the 51$ child support. She always
> put a bit of shelf stable foods aside, having been raised in the
> depression then the WWII years of rationing. I've always done that
> too. We were fine. It helped a LOT that I'm a scratch cook.
>
> She did a fine job raising us 3. None of us experienced more than a
> slight frown if we had to swap a planned dish over lack of supplies
> during the covid hoarding.
>
> The money just wasn't there to go backups but after I pay off the last
> of the solar, I'll look at 1 battery to add to it.
>
OK. "I don't have it yet because I can't afford it yet"
is different from "I opted not to."

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:m0adnRyp3bW28AD4nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@giganews.com...

Scout wrote:

> So now you're effectively paying twice as much for electricity.. what
> was the benefit again?

Easy Scout! I said that was the answer to the setup parameters of the
question. You change it here to a 'bang for the buck' problem but the
2 are distinctly different problems.

If you want to change to 'best bang for the buck with profits soon',
then you have to add in local factors and cost analysis. I'm game but
don't try to swap back and forth between them ok?

Simple answer to 'bang for the buck' with or without home battery
system is 'rarely worth it unless thinking small'. If the grid power
after sundown is 'peak hourly rate', a smaller battery of 4-6kWh may
pay off as in theory, you'll now only draw from the grid at the lowest
rate. Check your company though as some charge lowest rate it you meet
or exceed a set amount of solar production vs use. I don't have much
detail on that other than my grid power costs more from 4pm-9pm and I
pay that.

To cover a week's backup power, you have to overgenerate to your usage
and then the battery costs will normally equal the cost of the panels.
This doubles your 'payoff to profit time'. For most people, this is
where solar 'fails' the budget model. Without the battery, or a small
one to deal with minor nuisance outages, it may work. Small ones only
cover a few hours. Layman's terms: You get what you pay for but best
not buy more than you need.

-------------------------------

Good analysis. I decided that the course was to instrument and record my
usage, then trim what wasn't necessary, and finally size a solar system with
backup to the fraction of it that would protect refrigerated food for at
least a few days of a storm that kept me indoors, unable to buy more or cook
with electricity. I view it as an insurance policy that I may not want to
collect on instead of an investment with hope a dividend.

Trimming didn't mean giving up, I put always-on things like the TV antenna
distribution amp on switches.

As part of the process I found a way to take a shower with water heated in
kettles on the wood stove. Replace the spray wand of a garden sprayer with a
sink spray hose. 3/8" plastic tubing fit and sealed in the wand fitting of
the sprayers I tried, and adapts to the sink spray thread. The hot water
needs to be tempered to comfortable (115F) before pouring it into the
sprayer, it's too difficult within it. I can take a Navy shower on one 2
gallon sprayer but fill two just in case. Sprayers larger than 2 gallons may
be difficult to handle with slippery footing.

The sink spray hose is long enough if you sit on a plastic stool to wash and
put the sprayer up on the stool to rinse.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:unk0l8$23d7c$1@dont-email.me...

>Replace the spray wand of a garden sprayer with a sink spray hose.
-------------------------------------------
I think the Danco black braided hoses are worth their higher price for their
better flexibility: The adapter is 1/4" NPT to 3/8" compression, plus a
plastic ferrule to replace the included brass one. The hose end is NPS,
straight thread that seals with a washer but it fits NPT tapered pipe
threads.

https://www.buyfittingsonline.com/pages/npt-vs-nps-vs-nptf-thread-connections-the-difference.html

For tubing the nominal size equals measured outer diameter. For pipe the
nominal size won't be measured anywhere, it's a relic of pipe made from
weaker wrought iron with thicker walls. Lamp fittings, electrical conduit
and chain link fence posts are all based on pipe sizes so their dimensions
aren't common fractions.

I was in line at an industrial supply house behind an inventor who was
picking up a 2" inside diameter thrust bearing he had ordered to go on 2"
water pipe, for a tracking solar array. He was very upset to discover that
2" pipe is actually 2-3/8" outside diameter.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "cshenk" wrote in message
> news:Gx-cnQxsw_2RLAH4nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> Jim Wilkins wrote:
>
> > "Just Wondering" wrote in message
> > news:0aZmN.95241$q3F7.60338@fx45.iad...
> > ...
>
> The money just wasn't there to go backups but after I pay off the last
> of the solar, I'll look at 1 battery to add to it.
>
> ----------------------
> If you have commercially installed grid-tied solar adding a battery
> may not be possible and would be no help during an outage, since the
> controller shuts down when grid power fails, to prevent back-feeding
> that could shock line workers. The grid serves as your storage, with
> any excess of your output over your consumption recorded by the
> two-way electric meter.

Yes, that's my setup. Transfer to/from grid is 1:1 kWh locked in by
power company for life. Big drive in VA to go solar or 'other'
statewide. Our last 3 coal stations go offline within 3 years (one a
year). There are 2 others privately owned smaller coal stations just
for running internal industrial uses and I'm not sure what those
companies may plan.

The majority of the state grid is 'green' energy in a mix-n-match
pattern of nuclear, solar, wind, and I think hydroelectric. Main
problems here are same as other states. They all relate to grid power
and EV charging.

The EV charging is pretty bad unless you can do it from home generated
excess. Some wise-ass said I was wrong on that as 260 EV statitions
show but they were not aware that fully 50% of those are private
company owned for their own delivery vehicles. 120 stations left (all
but 40 are in awkward use areas like paid tourist parking garages or
airport). Effectively that means 40 to support a population of 1.7m in
Hampton roads.

I know Rome wasn't built in a day but only a fool would not add that
into their EV data when considering purshase of an EV here.

> The simple and safe, though not cheapest, backup is a packaged power
> station such as a Jackery. If you are experienced in the design and
> construction of electrical equipment a comparable system can be
> assembled from single-purpose modules for about half or less the
> cost.
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BX8S2VJ5/ref=nav_signin?sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmF
> tZT1zcF9ocXBfc2hhcmVk&th=1
> https://www.bestekdirect.com/bestek-500W-power-inverter

Perfect! I was about to ask for thoughts on the Jackery setups. On
paper 1 3 panel solar and 2 portable jackery batteries could seemingly
do a lot during a grid outage. As you say above, grid-down for me
means no power until the grid is up.

Amazon has the system (1 battery so would want a spare) for just under
500$ USD. In an outage, I could burst cool the chest freezer and use
the other for a DVD player and TV plus USB charging.

With no cut-out switch, during a grid outage that jackery plus a
gas/kerosine old style generator would be it.

Just Wondering wrote:

> On 1/8/2024 7:35 PM, cshenk wrote:
> > Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >
> > > "Just Wondering" wrote in message
> > > news:0aZmN.95241$q3F7.60338@fx45.iad...
> > >
> > > On 1/8/2024 11:20 AM, cshenk wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ... I opted to not have battery backup at my place. Power
> > > > outages are rare and seldom more than an hour.
> >
> > The money just wasn't there to go backups but after I pay off the
> > last of the solar, I'll look at 1 battery to add to it.
> >

(snips)

> OK. "I don't have it yet because I can't afford it yet"
> is different from "I opted not to."

Don't be so tied to battery backups. It's not a 'can't afford it yet'
in the way you seem to be pushing. It's 'may add a 4-6 hour unit' to
prevent higher peak hour consumption rates'. With no cut-out switch,
it's only usable when grid is up. The potential jackery backup is for
use during grid down times for basic comfort.

You seem to address this from 'desirement'. This is very different
from my point view which is 'requirement' based.

The math doesn't work out here on 'bang for the buck'. You did catch
that I only produce 92% of my annual needs' right? A honkin' big
backup battery setup would not only never fill, some of it would be
lost whereas I am protected from any loss as it is as that storage is
nown the problem of the grid. I get all of it back with no loss.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "cshenk" wrote in message
> news:S_WdnbFYGq2w_AD4nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> One of the troubles here that I have, is not a 'bad one' to have. My
> science background is primarily 'biology realm' with some chemistry
> allowed to lay fallow after my attempt to put myself through college.
> I'm probably 'undereducated' by the standards of some here for the
> types of knowledge background.
>
> Grin, should be fun to drop a 'silly Sally' into the mix! My skills
> are SQL programming, Navy Education and Training, heavy 'Data
> analysis' and directing slim resources for maximum benefit to force
> generation (getting the right trained sailor to the right ship when
> needed).
>
> Spent some time post 26year Navy career (E8) in contracting services
> and Mitre rings a bell though I never worked for them. I was mostly
> CSC then moved to GS-13(NETC then NAVIFOR).
>
> ------------------------
> Mitre worked more with the Air Force, FAA et al. It was structured
> as a private non-profit so we didn't have GS grades, or much
> bureaucratic interference.

I did a lot of work as active duty Navy, with all DOD branches. Don't
worry on GS grades, that doesn't apply to contractors. (for the rest,
'Government Civilian' is GS. Large percentage of them are retired
military veterans on second careers. GS13 is equal to Army Major or
Navy LT CDR but on the civilian counterpart). I retired from GS work
after 5 years and 4 months. I get a small monthly pension from them
for life and have a sizable TSP account as well.

> That's a pretty solid resume. I benefitted from someone getting the
> right trained soldier to where he was needed. I had listed French and
> German on the "dream sheet" requesting an assignment and was sent to
> Germany instead of Vietnam. I loved being there and driving around
> the countryside between our field communications sites but many
> Americans didn't, to the extent of reenlisting to go back to Saigon.
> In rural areas they didn't speak English and hadn't been contaminated
> by us.

Grin! My dream sheet said 'any ship overseas, any shore overseas, then
any east coast or west coast. Of course the Navy sent me to San
Antonio TX, AF Manpower Personnel Center, then next to Camp Smith
(marines/Army) at IPAC Hawaii. I didnt get to serve with the Navy
until I was 6 years in and that was as an instructor for basic entry
skills training in the computer rating (mos for you). Then I finally
got my dream ship at the 12 year mark and the rest was all sea except
for 4.5 years of it. Had a blast!

> I was a hardware guy with programming experience mainly limited to
> low level machine control. Being cooped up alone in the lab like
> Drosselmeyer the toymaker definitely isn't for everyone. Dan
> Aykroyd's character in Spies Like Us was close to my reality. His
> office was in the boiler room, mine was beside it, and like him I
> know a little Russian and KGB = Komitet Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti.

Snicker! Had 'one of those' too most of my career.

Anyways, my uniform was cuter! Dixie cups suit me! Also got to wear
blue jeans at work until I made E7.

Scout wrote:

>
>
>
> You could also take a bath if a hail storm comes through 3 years
> later and wipes out 90% of your panels.. How long would it then take
> to even think of breaking even?

Hi Scout. You might want to look up newer stats. Thats the old China
panels. Mine are the newer USA/Canada type. (every part of my system
is USA;/Canada made per the documents for it). They rate significantly
higher for hail and wind. I'm actually warrenteed for 25 years against
both hazards. Homeowner policy covers the gaps for install.