(if there's a Great math (logician) joke, i'd surely be interested!)

Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein,
die Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der
zweite auch "Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"

------- how this starts with a Verb...
if this is found in a short famous poem
(by Heine, Goethe, ...) i'd surely be interested!

if this were in English....
the 2nd guy would most likely say [I don't know either.]

What is represented by this? OdOoOmO

A surly English overseer is standing at the entrance to a
construction site in London. It’s a filthy, wet day. He sees approaching
him a shabby figure, with clay pipe clenched in mouth and a battered
raincoat, and scowlingly thinks, Another effing Mick on the scrounge.
The Irishman shambles up to him and asks if there’s any casual job
going. “You don’t look to me,” says the supervisor, “as if you know the
difference between a girder and a joist.” “I do, too,” says the Irishman
indignantly. “The first of them wrote Faust and the second one wrote
Ulysses.”

On Mon, 17 Jun 2024, HenHanna wrote:

> Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein, die
> Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der zweite auch
> "Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
>
>
> ------- how this starts with a Verb...

In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
imperative):

Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"

Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.

The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
(Let G be a group.) Probably this wording tries to avoid a single letter at
the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
"Es sei G ...".

In addition to that, this inversion may denote a precondition in a
*subordinate* phrase, not only in math jargon. Instead of

Wenn du morgen zum Mittagessen kommst, können wir das besprechen.

you can as well say

Kommst du morgen zum Mittagessen, können wir das besprechen.

> if this is found in a short famous poem
> (by Heine, Goethe, ...) i'd surely be interested!

There is a well-known poem by Eichendorff starting with a verb:

Schläft ein Lied in allen Dingen,
die da träumen fort und fort,
und die Welt hebt an zu singen,
triffst du nur das Zauberwort.

It is not obvious whether it follows one of the two patterns above:
either "Es schläft ein Lied ..." or "Wenn ein Lied ...schläft".

See also
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wünschelrute_(Eichendorff)

--
Helmut Richter

On 6/18/2024 3:33 AM, Helmut Richter wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jun 2024, HenHanna wrote:
>
>> Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein, die
>> Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der zweite auch
>> "Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
>>
>>
>> ------- how this starts with a Verb...
>
> In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
> that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
> questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
> Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
> syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
> imperative):
>
> Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
> Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
> spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
> mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"
>
> Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.
>
> The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
> with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
> precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
> (Let G be a group.) Probably this wording tries to avoid a single letter at
> the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
> "Es sei G ...".
>
> In addition to that, this inversion may denote a precondition in a
> *subordinate* phrase, not only in math jargon. Instead of
>
> Wenn du morgen zum Mittagessen kommst, können wir das besprechen.
>
> you can as well say
>
> Kommst du morgen zum Mittagessen, können wir das besprechen.
>
>> if this is found in a short famous poem
>> (by Heine, Goethe, ...) i'd surely be interested!
>
> There is a well-known poem by Eichendorff starting with a verb:
>
> Schläft ein Lied in allen Dingen,
> die da träumen fort und fort,
> und die Welt hebt an zu singen,
> triffst du nur das Zauberwort.
>
> It is not obvious whether it follows one of the two patterns above:
> either "Es schläft ein Lied ..." or "Wenn ein Lied ...schläft".
>
> See also
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wünschelrute_(Eichendorff)
>

thank you... i'll write some comments soon.

-- Sentence-initial Verb (in a German joke) --

------ Anastrophe has a similar suspension effect.

Quintilian (VIII.vi.65) offers an orthodox Latin example, in which
[duas] is stressed by its separation from [partes] :

animadverti, iudices, omnem accusatoris
orationem in duas divisam esse partes

("I noted, gentlemen, that the speech of the
accuser was divided into two parts").

James Joyce was so interested in the suspension effect
created by [in medias res]

Helmut Richter wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Jun 2024, HenHanna wrote:

>> Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs
>> sein,
>> die
>> Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der zweite
>> auch
>> "Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
>>
>>
>> ------- how this starts with a Verb...

> In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
> that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
> questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
> Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
> syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
> imperative):

> Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
> Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
> spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
> mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"

> Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.

If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
thing get started?

> The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence
> starts
> with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
> precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
> (Let G be a group.) Probably this wording tries to avoid a single
> letter at
> the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
> "Es sei G ...".
...

I assume imperatives, like the "gehen wir" above, are too obvious to
mention.

Is another situation poetry and song lyrics, at least old-fashioned
ones? "Sah ein Knab ein Röslein stehn."

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2024-06-18, Helmut Richter <hr.usenet@email.de> wrote:

> In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
> that belong to the narrative.
>
> The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
> with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
> precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."

I think that directly replicates Latin phrasing.

I quickly googled for mathematical proofs in Latin and peeked into
some of Euler's publications, where you can find sentence-initial
"sit ... / sint ...", used like this, i.e. the third person singular/
plural subjunctive of the "to be" verb.

> In addition to that, this inversion may denote a precondition in a
> *subordinate* phrase, not only in math jargon. Instead of
>
> Wenn du morgen zum Mittagessen kommst, können wir das besprechen.
>
> you can as well say
>
> Kommst du morgen zum Mittagessen, können wir das besprechen.

Inversion to mark conditional clauses also exists in limited form
in English, e.g.:
* Had I known ... (If I had known ...)
* Were I to leave ... (If I left ...)
* Should you choose ... (If you choose ...)

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On 2024-06-18, jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>> In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
>> that belong to the narrative. [...]
>> Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.
>
> If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
> thing get started?

In Old High German, the verb could be in initial, final, or second
position. However, verb position was influenced by pragmatics:
When a new discourse referent is introduced, the verb moves to the
tip of the sentence.[1]

[1] Paraphrased from Nübling et al.,
_Eine Einführung in die Prinzipien des Sprachwandels_
3rd ed., 2010
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Tue, 18 Jun 2024, jerryfriedman wrote:

> Helmut Richter wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 17 Jun 2024, HenHanna wrote:
>
> > > Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs
> > > sein,
> > > die
> > > Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der zweite
> > > auch
> > > "Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
> > >
> > >
> > > ------- how this starts with a Verb...
>
> > In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
> > that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
> > questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
> > Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
> > syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
> > imperative):
>
> > Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
> > Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
> > spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
> > mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"
>
> > Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.
>
> If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
> thing get started?
>
> > The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence
> > starts
> > with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
> > precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
> > (Let G be a group.) Probably this wording tries to avoid a single
> > letter at
> > the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
> > "Es sei G ...".
> ..
>
> I assume imperatives, like the "gehen wir" above, are too obvious to
> mention.

I did mention them in the first paragraph.

> Is another situation poetry and song lyrics, at least old-fashioned
> ones? "Sah ein Knab ein Röslein stehn."

Indeed. This is another example from poetry, in addition to the one I
gave: "Schläft ein Lied in allen Dingen, ...".

So there may be more examples in poetry but it is hard to find more.

--
Helmut Richter

Am 19.06.2024 um 00:43 schrieb Helmut Richter:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2024, jerryfriedman wrote:
>
>> Helmut Richter wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 17 Jun 2024, HenHanna wrote:
>>
>>>> Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs
>>>> sein,
>>>> die
>>>> Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der zweite
>>>> auch
>>>> "Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
>>>>
>>>> ------- how this starts with a Verb...
>>
>>> In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
>>> that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
>>> questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
>>> Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
>>> syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
>>> imperative):
>>
>>> Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
>>> Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
>>> spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
>>> mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"
>>
>>> Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.
>>
>> If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
>> thing get started?
>>
>>> The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence
>>> starts
>>> with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
>>> precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
>>> (Let G be a group.) Probably this wording tries to avoid a single
>>> letter at
>>> the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
>>> "Es sei G ...".
>> ..
>>
>> I assume imperatives, like the "gehen wir" above, are too obvious to
>> mention.
>
> I did mention them in the first paragraph.
>
>> Is another situation poetry and song lyrics, at least old-fashioned
>> ones? "Sah ein Knab ein Röslein stehn."
>
> Indeed. This is another example from poetry, in addition to the one I
> gave: "Schläft ein Lied in allen Dingen, ...".
>
> So there may be more examples in poetry but it is hard to find more.

From song lyrics: "Kommt ein Vogel geflogen"

Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> On 2024-06-18, jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
>>> that belong to the narrative. [...]
>>> Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.
>>
>> If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
>> thing get started?

> In Old High German, the verb could be in initial, final, or second
> position. However, verb position was influenced by pragmatics:
> When a new discourse referent is introduced, the verb moves to the
> tip of the sentence.[1]

> [1] Paraphrased from Nübling et al.,
> _Eine Einführung in die Prinzipien des Sprachwandels_
> 3rd ed., 2010

All right, that's a start, since jokes of this kind always introduce a
new discourse referent. So then I wonder why not other
situations where a new reference is introduced, and why the
inversion continues in jokes when you're talking about the same
two horses. But the answer might be just that strange things
happen.

--
Jerry Friedman

Helmut Richter wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jun 2024, jerryfriedman wrote:

>> Helmut Richter wrote:
>>
>> > On Mon, 17 Jun 2024, HenHanna wrote:
>>
>> > > Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs
>> > > sein,
>> > > die
>> > > Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der
>> zweite
>> > > auch
>> > > "Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ------- how this starts with a Verb...
>>
>> > In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
>> > that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
>> > questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
>> > Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
>> > syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
>> > imperative):
>>
>> > Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
>> > Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
>> > spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
>> > mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"
>>
>> > Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.
>>
>> If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
>> thing get started?
>>
>> > The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence
>> > starts
>> > with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of
>> a
>> > precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
>> > (Let G be a group.) Probably this wording tries to avoid a single
>> > letter at
>> > the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
>> > "Es sei G ...".
>> ..
>>
>> I assume imperatives, like the "gehen wir" above, are too obvious to
>> mention.

> I did mention them in the first paragraph.
...

Well, you mentioned one, though not the one immediately before it.
("Komm" in the horse joke is an imperative, right.) I should have
said that since you mentioned "gehen wir", the fact that imperatives
in all persons /typically/ appear first was too obvious to mention.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Wed, 19 Jun 2024, jerryfriedman wrote:

> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2024 15:48:51
> From: jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.lang, alt.usage.english, soc.culture.german, sci.math
> Subject: Re: Heine or Goethe -- Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar.
>
> Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
> > On 2024-06-18, jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
> > > > that belong to the narrative. [...]
> > > > Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.
> > >
> > > If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
> > > thing get started?
>
> > In Old High German, the verb could be in initial, final, or second
> > position. However, verb position was influenced by pragmatics:
> > When a new discourse referent is introduced, the verb moves to the
> > tip of the sentence.[1]
>
>
> > [1] Paraphrased from Nübling et al.,
> > _Eine Einführung in die Prinzipien des Sprachwandels_
> > 3rd ed., 2010
>
> All right, that's a start, since jokes of this kind always introduce a
> new discourse referent. So then I wonder why not other
> situations where a new reference is introduced, and why the
> inversion continues in jokes when you're talking about the same
> two horses. But the answer might be just that strange things
> happen.
>
> --
> Jerry Friedman
>

On 2024-06-18, Helmut Richter <hr.usenet@email.de> wrote:

> The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
> with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
> precondition of a mathematical theorem.

Verb-initial sentences are actually common in colloquial German by
ellipsis: initial "das" (object or subject) is dropped.

Das weiß ich nicht. > Weiß ich nicht.
Das geht nicht. > Geht nicht.
Das mach ich. > Mach ich.
etc.

I'll leave it to the syntacticians to figure out whether that is
just a surface form and we need to pretend that the "das" is still
present in some way, or whether it is really omitted... Really,
how do syntacticians deals with ellipsis?

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de