D wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 2 May 2024, Maximus wrote:
>
>> Attila wrote:
>>> On Wed, 1 May 2024 01:01:01 +1000, Maximus
>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>> <l9cfdfFu7b8U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 22:57:53 +1000, Maximus
>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>> <l9c86kFt574U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:43:47 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>> <l9c3rjFsglgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:18:28 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>> <l9bnqmFqncgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:59:25 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>> <l9b1k0FniudU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:38:00 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <662F2428.72E6@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Starmaker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheism is a belief, it's not a science.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religious beliefs and Atheism beliefs are both on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist are confident that there is no God, as Religions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are confident that there is a God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not really.  Theists postulate the existence of something
>>>>>>>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence for that existence.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. billions of believers and personal testimony is
>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>> Personal testimony is never evidence
>>>>>>>>>> any court would disagree with you
>>>>>>>>> It is well known that personal testimony is the poorest kind
>>>>>>>>> of evidence.
>>>>>>>> maybe, but still evidence. and it's relative to numbers. if
>>>>>>>> twenty pp
>>>>>>>> say they saw me run down a pedestrian in my car, that carries more
>>>>>>>> weight than if just one person says it.
>>>>>>> I agree - it is evidence.  It just isn't very useful
>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The value of eyewitnesses:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNF9QNEQLA
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnnmWYI0lM
>>>>>>>> I'm not going to watch all those, sorry. (see comment below)
>>>>>>> Any one will do.  They all show what you see may not be
>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> since there is no way
>>>>>>>>>>> to support it.
>>>>>>>>>>>       As far as the "belief of billions" is
>>>>>>>>>>> concerned there are hundreds of different beliefs in there
>>>>>>>>>>> and they can't all be correct.
>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to Xtianity and Islam primarily
>>>>>>>>> How about Hindu?
>>>>>>>> about 1.2 billion. but Christians and Islamists make up over
>>>>>>>> 50% of all
>>>>>>>> religious faiths.
>>>>>>> So what?  That doesn't mean any of them are valid.
>>>>>> no, but your point is there's no evidence. I say it's evidence the
>>>>>> beliefs could be valid.
>>>>> Or not.  There is no actual evidence that would convince
>>>>> someone either way.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      There are hundreds of others.  In fact
>>>>>>>>> there are many, many different Christian beliefs.
>>>>>>>> yes. I'm just saying it's not as you say that there's no
>>>>>>>> evidence. for
>>>>>>>> example believers spend a lot of money in support of their
>>>>>>>> faith. just
>>>>>>>> near where I am there's a 7th day Adventist complex worth many
>>>>>>>> millions
>>>>>>>> of dollars. also many intelligent ppl have religious beliefs.
>>>>>>>> in fact
>>>>>>>> theists vastly outnumber us. you can't just dismiss such things
>>>>>>>> as being
>>>>>>>> no evidence that there may be some validity to their beliefs.
>>>>>>> Or not.  There is exactly the same support either way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but at the
>>>>>>>> end of the day, I look at what the beliefs actually are. when
>>>>>>>> one does
>>>>>>>> that, it's not so difficult to dismiss them as nonsense. eg.
>>>>>>>> xtians
>>>>>>>> believe they will live in mansions, and walk on streets paved
>>>>>>>> with gold
>>>>>>>> in some god adoring afterlife, and muslims believe they will
>>>>>>>> get 70
>>>>>>>> virgins if they die as martyrs.
>>>>>>> Most religions have common factors - rewards for believers
>>>>>>> and painful punishment for non-believers.
>>>>>>> Basically there is no actual supporting evidence either way
>>>>>>> for anything involving religion.  That is why faith was
>>>>>>> invented.  Faith is belief without evidence - for those who
>>>>>>> believe in such.
>>>>>> no, faith is belief without proof
>>>>> Proof - evidence - either way it is the same thing.  No
>>>>> facts.
>>>> no. evidence is not proof. evidence is just something that supports a
>>>> conclusion.
>>> True, but usually evidence has some validity factor.
>>>
>>> Just what is evidence is usually left to the judgment of the
>>> parties involved, which makes unsupported evidence useless.
>>> Meaningful evidence is unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable
>>> and credible.
>>>
>>
>> unsupported evidence is not useless. all evidence is evaluated on
>> it's credibility. if there's a murder and I say I saw it happen, but
>> no one else did, that still needs to be investigated.
>>
>>>>> A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven
>>>>> to be true or false through objective evidence.  No religion
>>>>> has this.
>>>> yes they do. Muhammad is an historical person, as is Jesus
>>> Absolutely correct but there is no unambiguous, unrelated,
>>> verifiable and credible evidence that they were any
>>> different from any John Doe off any street.
>>
>> the impact they had on the world suggests otherwise
>>
>>>    Simply
>>> accepting (or proving) someone with that name existed at a
>>> certain time and place proves nothing.
>>>
>>> There is no independent and unrelated supporting evidence.
>>>>>> . the gospels for example are a basis
>>>>>> for Xtian faith
>>>>> Or for any other religion.  None of them have anything
>>>>> beyond faith.  Your gospels are accepted as being true
>>>>> without any supporting evidence.
>>>> the gospels are evidence for the events they contain
>>> Your acceptance of them as evidence does nothing to actually
>>> validate them
>>
>> nevertheless they are still evidence for what they contain. your
>> claim is there's no evidence for religious belief, not that there's
>> no proof. just as sporting organizations, clubs, and participants are
>> evidence for their sport, ie. that the sport exists, Churches and
>> Mosques and the believers (billions of them) are evidence for their
>> God. ie. that the God exists, or there wouldn't be any Churches or
>> Mosques. to me this seem obvious.
>
> No, that is incorrect. Churches and churchgoers are evidence that
> churches and organized religions exist. They are not evidence of
> everything that religion proclaims to be true, is true.

I'm not saying they are

>
>>>   Such validation requires unambiguous,
>>> unrelated, verifiable and credible evidence,
>>>
>>>> it's irrelevant
>>>> whether those events are true or not. they are still evidence. but
>>>> some
>>>> things in the gospels are known to be factual. Bart Ehrman is a (very)
>>>> good authority on this.
>>> Nothing beyond some physical locations and independently
>>> verified historical figures.  None of the mystical or
>>> supernatural claims are independently supported.
>>
>> yes
>>

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs cannot withstand reason, fact, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"The problem with theism is that it never remains within
the realm of belief, but invariably proceeds to assertion"