On 7/04/2024 6:39 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 19:37:27 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 00:35:46 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
>> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05-04-2024 23:22, john larkin wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 16:26:49 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/5/2024 3:49 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 12:20:19 -0400) it happened bitrex
>>>>>> <user@example.net> wrote in <660ed343$0$1258343$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My most useful old machine dollar for dollar is my 8012B pulse generator!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://imgur.com/a/2GaSZVq>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice, real components...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> $50 "not working." It was just a burned-out pilot lamp and dirty controls.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mm 50 dollars,
>>>>>> even today with people using dollars for wallpaper,
>>>>>> buys you a nice pulse generator on ebay..
>>>>>
>>>>> It cost $1700 USD in the 1987 catalog, about $4500 equivalent today!
>>>>>
>>>>>> 555 timer works fine too
>>>>>> Or use sox in Linux for all sort of audio, including sweeps:
>>>>>> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/howto-sox-audio-tool-as-a-signal-generator.4242/
>>>>>> or just use a Raspberry Pi as signal generator:
>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#freq_pi
>>>>
>>>> Our DDG is about $4K, addmittedly over the top for a home lab.
>>>>
>>>> http://highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P500DS.shtml
>>>>
>>>> I love my beat-up old unit on my bench. Timing and levels are
>>>> brutally quantitative.
>>>>
>>> I bought a Siglent DDS SDG6022X for 1300USD, 200MHz thingie. I knew
>>> forehand that it could be hacked to 500MHz, so "saved" 3000 USD for 1
>>> hours work :-)
>>>
>>> https://www.batronix.com/shop/waveform-generator/Siglent-SDG6022X.html
>>>
>>> EEVBLOG has hacking details if anyone is interested...
>>
>> We bought a few Rigol 300 MHz 4-chan scopes and insisted that they
>> throw in the 500 MHz upgrade.
>>
>> I remember when FFT was an extra-cost feature. Now it's free.
>
> Excuse me for being a bit slow on the uptake here, but it seems to me
> that there are a *lot* of products which are fundamentally all
> manufactured to the same spec - but then deliberately crippled unless
> you pay some sort of ransom to have them 'unlocked' as it were. Would
> that be correct or am I being too cynical?

Probably. You have got to run tests to be sure that the feature works
before you can ship it to a customer, and the tests tkae time, cost
money and don't always work. If only a few customers want it, it makes
sense to sell to the cheaper spec and charge the customers who are
prepared to pay for the extra performance.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 6 Apr 2024 22:05:35 GMT, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:

>On 6 Apr 2024 at 21:39:25 BST, "Cursitor Doom" <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 19:37:27 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 00:35:46 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
>>> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05-04-2024 23:22, john larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 16:26:49 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/5/2024 3:49 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 12:20:19 -0400) it happened bitrex
>>>>>>> <user@example.net> wrote in <660ed343$0$1258343$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My most useful old machine dollar for dollar is my 8012B pulse generator!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://imgur.com/a/2GaSZVq>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice, real components...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> $50 "not working." It was just a burned-out pilot lamp and dirty controls.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mm 50 dollars,
>>>>>>> even today with people using dollars for wallpaper,
>>>>>>> buys you a nice pulse generator on ebay..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It cost $1700 USD in the 1987 catalog, about $4500 equivalent today!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 555 timer works fine too
>>>>>>> Or use sox in Linux for all sort of audio, including sweeps:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/howto-sox-audio-tool-as-a-signal-generator.4242/
>>>>>>> or just use a Raspberry Pi as signal generator:
>>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#freq_pi
>>>>>
>>>>> Our DDG is about $4K, addmittedly over the top for a home lab.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P500DS.shtml
>>>>>
>>>>> I love my beat-up old unit on my bench. Timing and levels are
>>>>> brutally quantitative.
>>>>>
>>>> I bought a Siglent DDS SDG6022X for 1300USD, 200MHz thingie. I knew
>>>> forehand that it could be hacked to 500MHz, so "saved" 3000 USD for 1
>>>> hours work :-)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.batronix.com/shop/waveform-generator/Siglent-SDG6022X.html
>>>>
>>>> EEVBLOG has hacking details if anyone is interested...
>>>
>>> We bought a few Rigol 300 MHz 4-chan scopes and insisted that they
>>> throw in the 500 MHz upgrade.
>>>
>>> I remember when FFT was an extra-cost feature. Now it's free.
>>
>> Excuse me for being a bit slow on the uptake here, but it seems to me
>> that there are a *lot* of products which are fundamentally all
>> manufactured to the same spec - but then deliberately crippled unless
>> you pay some sort of ransom to have them 'unlocked' as it were. Would
>> that be correct or am I being too cynical?
>
>No, but is differentiating products on softwar supplies any different from
>differentiating them on hardware? Cheap ones simply wouldn't be available to
>hobbyists if they had to sell them all as top of the range, where they make
>the money for the effort to make a high bandwidth scope. There is also the
>advantage that they can perhaps be hacked by well-informed hobbyists, but most
>commercial buyers wouldn't be happy doing that for one or another reason.

AFAIC, it *does* matter if the limitations are in hardware or
software. In the case of scopes for example, good bandwidth don't
come cheap! So if you're going to go to the expense of developing high
bandwidth capability it just seems like self-mutilation to cripple all
that hard work to produce an inferior product.

On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 14:48:38 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 22:21:45 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:15:43 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:33:12 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:49:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 11:56:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>>><uum4h6$kmdl$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01-04-2024 09:01, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>>>>>>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I
>>>>>>>> blew up a channel once myself in the first week
>>>>>>>> when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with
>>>>>>>> it, fixed it locating the problem with the other channel.
>>>>>>>> Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from
>>>>>>>> the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>>>>>>> Made a new graticule.
>>>>>>>> So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>>>>>>> For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>>>>>>> and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital meters and an analog one.
>>>>>>>> also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot
>>>>>>>> interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>>>>>>> Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>>>>>>> Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance
>>>>>>>> scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>>>>>>> Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and
>>>>>>>> RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>>>>>>> GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>>>>>>> a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum
>>>>>>>> analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>>>>>>> Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>>>>>>> Things last forever here...
>>>>>>>> Scope used on a regular basis..
>>>>>>>> RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>>>>>>> Digital meters used every day.
>>>>>>>> Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>>>>>>> What more do you need?
>>>>>>>> Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>>>>>>> When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a meter, still stuff worked.
>>>>>>>> Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>>>>>>> Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>>>>>>> UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>>>>>>> Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>>>>>>> But it does not help you one bit.
>>>>>>>> Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just
>>>>>>>> like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Very true about specifically the 1% statement. Sidebar, at an earlier
>>>>>>> employment, we needed to equip a new lab. Guys wanted GHz scopes. When
>>>>>>> asked if the ever looked at edges faster than 1ns, no one did.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It’s true that there are a lot of relatively undemanding jobs in
>>>>>>electronics. You can get on fine with a 200-MHz scope if all you’re doing
>>>>>>is PIC and Pi and ham radio and analog TV.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bull,
>>>>>I have been using my Trio 10 MHz dual channel for digital TV too
>>>>>see
>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>GHz output..
>>>>>
>>>>>Its is about UNDERSTANDING the systems
>>>>>You cannot repair a TV set in a short time if you do not UNDERSTAND every part of the circuit and its function, the whole system
>>>>>neither with a 10 MHz or with a 10 GHz scope.
>>>>>Fault finding had been my job most of the time, sometimes with 'the show must go on'
>>>>>or rocket must launch or whatever.
>>>>>
>>>>>In an environment a million times more complex than your back-room with boat anchors.
>>>>>And always delivered.. unlike some that dropped out or broke down.
>>>>>It is indeed about what is between the ears as you mentioned.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>It’s also true that you can often make do with what you have—the most
>>>>>>important test instrument is the one between your ears.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In the before times, doctors were much better with stethoscopes than they
>>>>>>are now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But I’d sure prefer a cardiologist who could use tomography and ultrasound
>>>>>>over the best stethoscope guy.
>>>>>
>>>>>Only useful if you can read the screens, these days they train AI to find cancer in the scans.....
>>>>>Yes I worked in an Uni hospital too.
>>>>>How many people die each year because of medical errors?
>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
>>>>>Remember Jim Thompson stating 'they are giving me ... but I had a warning I was not supposed to get that'
>>>>>Few days later he was dead.
>>>>
>>>>Jim had pancreatic cancer, which is notoriously tricky to diagnose due
>>>>to the misleading symptoms it gives rise to.
>>>
>>>He talked constantly about wine. That can kill your pancreas.
>>>
>>>There are people who drink bottles per day.
>>
>>Oh yes, he loved his wine alright. As I recall, you sent him several
>>cases of the stuff over the years. But no amount of peace offerings
>>could placate Jim if he felt you'd disrespected him. Anyway, all
>>credit to you for at least trying to heal the rift, even if it came to
>>naught.
>
>I think I sent him two bottles of Frog's Tooth, not cases.
>
>I get the Frog's Tooth free. The vintner is also our sales rep for
>pick+place gear, and he throws in a bottle or a case with every big
>order.
>
>JT was a little touchy at times (never me!) but we didn't actually
>have a rift. I think that serious electronics designers always get
>along pretty well. Circuit design is a sport that we play.
>
>I miss JT. He was fun. I often drive on Thompkins Street and it
>reminds me of him.

Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
> On 6 Apr 2024 22:05:35 GMT, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
>
>> On 6 Apr 2024 at 21:39:25 BST, "Cursitor Doom" <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 19:37:27 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 00:35:46 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
>>>> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05-04-2024 23:22, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 16:26:49 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/5/2024 3:49 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 12:20:19 -0400) it happened bitrex
>>>>>>>> <user@example.net> wrote in <660ed343$0$1258343$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My most useful old machine dollar for dollar is my 8012B pulse generator!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://imgur.com/a/2GaSZVq>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice, real components...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> $50 "not working." It was just a burned-out pilot lamp and dirty controls.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> mm 50 dollars,
>>>>>>>> even today with people using dollars for wallpaper,
>>>>>>>> buys you a nice pulse generator on ebay..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It cost $1700 USD in the 1987 catalog, about $4500 equivalent today!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 555 timer works fine too
>>>>>>>> Or use sox in Linux for all sort of audio, including sweeps:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/howto-sox-audio-tool-as-a-signal-generator.4242/
>>>>>>>> or just use a Raspberry Pi as signal generator:
>>>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#freq_pi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our DDG is about $4K, addmittedly over the top for a home lab.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P500DS.shtml
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I love my beat-up old unit on my bench. Timing and levels are
>>>>>> brutally quantitative.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I bought a Siglent DDS SDG6022X for 1300USD, 200MHz thingie. I knew
>>>>> forehand that it could be hacked to 500MHz, so "saved" 3000 USD for 1
>>>>> hours work :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.batronix.com/shop/waveform-generator/Siglent-SDG6022X.html
>>>>>
>>>>> EEVBLOG has hacking details if anyone is interested...
>>>>
>>>> We bought a few Rigol 300 MHz 4-chan scopes and insisted that they
>>>> throw in the 500 MHz upgrade.
>>>>
>>>> I remember when FFT was an extra-cost feature. Now it's free.
>>>
>>> Excuse me for being a bit slow on the uptake here, but it seems to me
>>> that there are a *lot* of products which are fundamentally all
>>> manufactured to the same spec - but then deliberately crippled unless
>>> you pay some sort of ransom to have them 'unlocked' as it were. Would
>>> that be correct or am I being too cynical?
>>
>> No, but is differentiating products on softwar supplies any different from
>> differentiating them on hardware? Cheap ones simply wouldn't be available to
>> hobbyists if they had to sell them all as top of the range, where they make
>> the money for the effort to make a high bandwidth scope. There is also the
>> advantage that they can perhaps be hacked by well-informed hobbyists, but most
>> commercial buyers wouldn't be happy doing that for one or another reason.
>
> AFAIC, it *does* matter if the limitations are in hardware or
> software. In the case of scopes for example, good bandwidth don't
> come cheap! So if you're going to go to the expense of developing high
> bandwidth capability it just seems like self-mutilation to cripple all
> that hard work to produce an inferior product.
>

Depends.

The value of a thing is what a willing buyer will pay for it in a free and
stable market. (*) That has only an oblique connection with the BOM and
engineering costs.

Then there are economies of scale. Parts get cheaper when you buy more of
them, so if you build only your high-end model, the total BOM cost may well
go down. Certainly the cost of engineering, testing, and inventory will go
down.

Keeping inventory of finished goods down also reduces business risk and tax
liability, because most companies have to pay taxes as though it was
already sold. (There are probably tax advantages to keeping inventory of
nearly-finished goods instead.)

So there are lots of reasons to sell what some customers might regard as
crippleware.

That being said, I don’t think it immoral for folks to figure out how to
unlock the other features. It’s not that hard to prevent, if you really
care to.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(*) Yes, there are issues with the time-dependence of actual markets, but
then honesty and fair dealing are themselves valuable.)

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 14:48:38 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 22:21:45 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:15:43 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:33:12 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:49:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 11:56:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>>>> <uum4h6$kmdl$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01-04-2024 09:01, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>>>>>>>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I
>>>>>>>>> blew up a channel once myself in the first week
>>>>>>>>> when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with
>>>>>>>>> it, fixed it locating the problem with the other channel.
>>>>>>>>> Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from
>>>>>>>>> the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>>>>>>>> Made a new graticule.
>>>>>>>>> So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>>>>>>>> For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>>>>>>>> and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital
>>>>>>>>> meters and an analog one.
>>>>>>>>> also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot
>>>>>>>>> interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>>>>>>>> Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>>>>>>>> Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance
>>>>>>>>> scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>>>>>>>> Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and
>>>>>>>>> RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>>>>>>>> GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>>>>>>>> a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum
>>>>>>>>> analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>>>>>>>> Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>>>>>>>> Things last forever here...
>>>>>>>>> Scope used on a regular basis..
>>>>>>>>> RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>>>>>>>> Digital meters used every day.
>>>>>>>>> Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>>>>>>>> What more do you need?
>>>>>>>>> Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>>>>>>>> When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a
>>>>>>>>> meter, still stuff worked.
>>>>>>>>> Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>>>>>>>> Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>>>>>>>> UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>>>>>>>> Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>>>>>>>> But it does not help you one bit.
>>>>>>>>> Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just
>>>>>>>>> like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Very true about specifically the 1% statement. Sidebar, at an earlier
>>>>>>>> employment, we needed to equip a new lab. Guys wanted GHz scopes. When
>>>>>>>> asked if the ever looked at edges faster than 1ns, no one did.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s true that there are a lot of relatively undemanding jobs in
>>>>>>> electronics. You can get on fine with a 200-MHz scope if all you’re doing
>>>>>>> is PIC and Pi and ham radio and analog TV.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bull,
>>>>>> I have been using my Trio 10 MHz dual channel for digital TV too
>>>>>> see
>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>> GHz output..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Its is about UNDERSTANDING the systems
>>>>>> You cannot repair a TV set in a short time if you do not UNDERSTAND
>>>>>> every part of the circuit and its function, the whole system
>>>>>> neither with a 10 MHz or with a 10 GHz scope.
>>>>>> Fault finding had been my job most of the time, sometimes with 'the show must go on'
>>>>>> or rocket must launch or whatever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In an environment a million times more complex than your back-room with boat anchors.
>>>>>> And always delivered.. unlike some that dropped out or broke down.
>>>>>> It is indeed about what is between the ears as you mentioned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s also true that you can often make do with what you have—the most
>>>>>>> important test instrument is the one between your ears.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the before times, doctors were much better with stethoscopes than they
>>>>>>> are now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I’d sure prefer a cardiologist who could use tomography and ultrasound
>>>>>>> over the best stethoscope guy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only useful if you can read the screens, these days they train AI to
>>>>>> find cancer in the scans.....
>>>>>> Yes I worked in an Uni hospital too.
>>>>>> How many people die each year because of medical errors?
>>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
>>>>>> Remember Jim Thompson stating 'they are giving me ... but I had a
>>>>>> warning I was not supposed to get that'
>>>>>> Few days later he was dead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim had pancreatic cancer, which is notoriously tricky to diagnose due
>>>>> to the misleading symptoms it gives rise to.
>>>>
>>>> He talked constantly about wine. That can kill your pancreas.
>>>>
>>>> There are people who drink bottles per day.
>>>
>>> Oh yes, he loved his wine alright. As I recall, you sent him several
>>> cases of the stuff over the years. But no amount of peace offerings
>>> could placate Jim if he felt you'd disrespected him. Anyway, all
>>> credit to you for at least trying to heal the rift, even if it came to
>>> naught.
>>
>> I think I sent him two bottles of Frog's Tooth, not cases.
>>
>> I get the Frog's Tooth free. The vintner is also our sales rep for
>> pick+place gear, and he throws in a bottle or a case with every big
>> order.
>>
>> JT was a little touchy at times (never me!) but we didn't actually
>> have a rift. I think that serious electronics designers always get
>> along pretty well. Circuit design is a sport that we play.
>>
>> I miss JT. He was fun. I often drive on Thompkins Street and it
>> reminds me of him.
>
> I think the passage of time has mellowed your recollections, John.
> Shortly after he died, you called him a crabby old man! There was
> something about you he clearly didn't much like. No idea why, since
> you've never come across as anything but well-mannered and helpful as
> far as I can tell.
> Jim gave me a hell of a rough time when I first arrived here back in
> '96. He didn't suffer fools gladly and boy did he let me know when he
> believed I was one. But that did me a huge favour. He did have a point
> inasmuch as my fundamental electronics knowledge needed a lot of
> remedial attention. So he forced me to sit down and go back through
> all the stuff I should have known before I came here and I became much
> better for it. And when I finally did, he praised me for it. Praise
> from Jim was praise indeed! He was a GIANT of this group and I miss
> him terribly, too.
>

In article <hqm41jp3o9stavmgk86j8nmqhm49a8co72@4ax.com>,
cd@notformail.com says...
>
> >No, but is differentiating products on softwar supplies any different from
> >differentiating them on hardware? Cheap ones simply wouldn't be available to
> >hobbyists if they had to sell them all as top of the range, where they make
> >the money for the effort to make a high bandwidth scope. There is also the
> >advantage that they can perhaps be hacked by well-informed hobbyists, but most
> >commercial buyers wouldn't be happy doing that for one or another reason.
>
> AFAIC, it *does* matter if the limitations are in hardware or
> software. In the case of scopes for example, good bandwidth don't
> come cheap! So if you're going to go to the expense of developing high
> bandwidth capability it just seems like self-mutilation to cripple all
> that hard work to produce an inferior product.
>
>

From what I am seeing on the Internet there are some scopes that the
software limits them but to get the full bandwidth some components need
to be changed. I bought a China function generator and while it does
not have a software upgrade there are several components to be changed
that make it function better at higher frequencies.

I heard some cars have functions that can be turned on and off remotely
so they can charge you yearly.

The sat and cable TV is like that . The equipment is the same but they
only enable the channels you pay for.

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:50:50 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 14:48:38 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 22:21:45 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:15:43 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:33:12 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:49:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 11:56:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>>>><uum4h6$kmdl$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01-04-2024 09:01, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>>>>>>>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I
>>>>>>>>> blew up a channel once myself in the first week
>>>>>>>>> when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with
>>>>>>>>> it, fixed it locating the problem with the other channel.
>>>>>>>>> Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from
>>>>>>>>> the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>>>>>>>> Made a new graticule.
>>>>>>>>> So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>>>>>>>> For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>>>>>>>> and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital meters and an analog one.
>>>>>>>>> also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot
>>>>>>>>> interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>>>>>>>> Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>>>>>>>> Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance
>>>>>>>>> scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>>>>>>>> Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and
>>>>>>>>> RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>>>>>>>> GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>>>>>>>> a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum
>>>>>>>>> analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>>>>>>>> Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>>>>>>>> Things last forever here...
>>>>>>>>> Scope used on a regular basis..
>>>>>>>>> RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>>>>>>>> Digital meters used every day.
>>>>>>>>> Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>>>>>>>> What more do you need?
>>>>>>>>> Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>>>>>>>> When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a meter, still stuff worked.
>>>>>>>>> Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>>>>>>>> Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>>>>>>>> UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>>>>>>>> Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>>>>>>>> But it does not help you one bit.
>>>>>>>>> Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just
>>>>>>>>> like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Very true about specifically the 1% statement. Sidebar, at an earlier
>>>>>>>> employment, we needed to equip a new lab. Guys wanted GHz scopes. When
>>>>>>>> asked if the ever looked at edges faster than 1ns, no one did.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It’s true that there are a lot of relatively undemanding jobs in
>>>>>>>electronics. You can get on fine with a 200-MHz scope if all you’re doing
>>>>>>>is PIC and Pi and ham radio and analog TV.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bull,
>>>>>>I have been using my Trio 10 MHz dual channel for digital TV too
>>>>>>see
>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>>GHz output..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Its is about UNDERSTANDING the systems
>>>>>>You cannot repair a TV set in a short time if you do not UNDERSTAND every part of the circuit and its function, the whole system
>>>>>>neither with a 10 MHz or with a 10 GHz scope.
>>>>>>Fault finding had been my job most of the time, sometimes with 'the show must go on'
>>>>>>or rocket must launch or whatever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In an environment a million times more complex than your back-room with boat anchors.
>>>>>>And always delivered.. unlike some that dropped out or broke down.
>>>>>>It is indeed about what is between the ears as you mentioned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It’s also true that you can often make do with what you have—the most
>>>>>>>important test instrument is the one between your ears.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In the before times, doctors were much better with stethoscopes than they
>>>>>>>are now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But I’d sure prefer a cardiologist who could use tomography and ultrasound
>>>>>>>over the best stethoscope guy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Only useful if you can read the screens, these days they train AI to find cancer in the scans.....
>>>>>>Yes I worked in an Uni hospital too.
>>>>>>How many people die each year because of medical errors?
>>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
>>>>>>Remember Jim Thompson stating 'they are giving me ... but I had a warning I was not supposed to get that'
>>>>>>Few days later he was dead.
>>>>>
>>>>>Jim had pancreatic cancer, which is notoriously tricky to diagnose due
>>>>>to the misleading symptoms it gives rise to.
>>>>
>>>>He talked constantly about wine. That can kill your pancreas.
>>>>
>>>>There are people who drink bottles per day.
>>>
>>>Oh yes, he loved his wine alright. As I recall, you sent him several
>>>cases of the stuff over the years. But no amount of peace offerings
>>>could placate Jim if he felt you'd disrespected him. Anyway, all
>>>credit to you for at least trying to heal the rift, even if it came to
>>>naught.
>>
>>I think I sent him two bottles of Frog's Tooth, not cases.
>>
>>I get the Frog's Tooth free. The vintner is also our sales rep for
>>pick+place gear, and he throws in a bottle or a case with every big
>>order.
>>
>>JT was a little touchy at times (never me!) but we didn't actually
>>have a rift. I think that serious electronics designers always get
>>along pretty well. Circuit design is a sport that we play.
>>
>>I miss JT. He was fun. I often drive on Thompkins Street and it
>>reminds me of him.
>
>I think the passage of time has mellowed your recollections, John.
>Shortly after he died, you called him a crabby old man!

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:40:03 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:50:50 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 14:48:38 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 22:21:45 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:15:43 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:33:12 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:49:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 11:56:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>>>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>>>>><uum4h6$kmdl$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 01-04-2024 09:01, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>>>>>>>>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I
>>>>>>>>>> blew up a channel once myself in the first week
>>>>>>>>>> when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with
>>>>>>>>>> it, fixed it locating the problem with the other channel.
>>>>>>>>>> Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from
>>>>>>>>>> the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>>>>>>>>> Made a new graticule.
>>>>>>>>>> So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>>>>>>>>> For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>>>>>>>>> and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital meters and an analog one.
>>>>>>>>>> also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot
>>>>>>>>>> interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>>>>>>>>> Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>>>>>>>>> Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance
>>>>>>>>>> scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>>>>>>>>> Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and
>>>>>>>>>> RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>>>>>>>>> GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>>>>>>>>> a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum
>>>>>>>>>> analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>>>>>>>>> Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>>>>>>>>> Things last forever here...
>>>>>>>>>> Scope used on a regular basis..
>>>>>>>>>> RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>>>>>>>>> Digital meters used every day.
>>>>>>>>>> Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>>>>>>>>> What more do you need?
>>>>>>>>>> Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>>>>>>>>> When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a meter, still stuff worked.
>>>>>>>>>> Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>>>>>>>>> Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>>>>>>>>> UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>>>>>>>>> Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>>>>>>>>> But it does not help you one bit.
>>>>>>>>>> Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just
>>>>>>>>>> like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Very true about specifically the 1% statement. Sidebar, at an earlier
>>>>>>>>> employment, we needed to equip a new lab. Guys wanted GHz scopes. When
>>>>>>>>> asked if the ever looked at edges faster than 1ns, no one did.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It’s true that there are a lot of relatively undemanding jobs in
>>>>>>>>electronics. You can get on fine with a 200-MHz scope if all you’re doing
>>>>>>>>is PIC and Pi and ham radio and analog TV.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bull,
>>>>>>>I have been using my Trio 10 MHz dual channel for digital TV too
>>>>>>>see
>>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>>>GHz output..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Its is about UNDERSTANDING the systems
>>>>>>>You cannot repair a TV set in a short time if you do not UNDERSTAND every part of the circuit and its function, the whole system
>>>>>>>neither with a 10 MHz or with a 10 GHz scope.
>>>>>>>Fault finding had been my job most of the time, sometimes with 'the show must go on'
>>>>>>>or rocket must launch or whatever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In an environment a million times more complex than your back-room with boat anchors.
>>>>>>>And always delivered.. unlike some that dropped out or broke down.
>>>>>>>It is indeed about what is between the ears as you mentioned.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It’s also true that you can often make do with what you have—the most
>>>>>>>>important test instrument is the one between your ears.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In the before times, doctors were much better with stethoscopes than they
>>>>>>>>are now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>But I’d sure prefer a cardiologist who could use tomography and ultrasound
>>>>>>>>over the best stethoscope guy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Only useful if you can read the screens, these days they train AI to find cancer in the scans.....
>>>>>>>Yes I worked in an Uni hospital too.
>>>>>>>How many people die each year because of medical errors?
>>>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
>>>>>>>Remember Jim Thompson stating 'they are giving me ... but I had a warning I was not supposed to get that'
>>>>>>>Few days later he was dead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jim had pancreatic cancer, which is notoriously tricky to diagnose due
>>>>>>to the misleading symptoms it gives rise to.
>>>>>
>>>>>He talked constantly about wine. That can kill your pancreas.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are people who drink bottles per day.
>>>>
>>>>Oh yes, he loved his wine alright. As I recall, you sent him several
>>>>cases of the stuff over the years. But no amount of peace offerings
>>>>could placate Jim if he felt you'd disrespected him. Anyway, all
>>>>credit to you for at least trying to heal the rift, even if it came to
>>>>naught.
>>>
>>>I think I sent him two bottles of Frog's Tooth, not cases.
>>>
>>>I get the Frog's Tooth free. The vintner is also our sales rep for
>>>pick+place gear, and he throws in a bottle or a case with every big
>>>order.
>>>
>>>JT was a little touchy at times (never me!) but we didn't actually
>>>have a rift. I think that serious electronics designers always get
>>>along pretty well. Circuit design is a sport that we play.
>>>
>>>I miss JT. He was fun. I often drive on Thompkins Street and it
>>>reminds me of him.
>>
>>I think the passage of time has mellowed your recollections, John.
>>Shortly after he died, you called him a crabby old man!
>
>But he *was* a crabby old man. That's no big deal. He probably would
>have enjoyed the description. He died bravely.
>
>There was
>>something about you he clearly didn't much like.
>
>There was some teasing involved. We got along fine in emails.
>
>No idea why, since
>>you've never come across as anything but well-mannered and helpful as
>>far as I can tell.
>
>I can be crabby too, but that's a common hazard on an unmoderated
>public forum.
>
>>Jim gave me a hell of a rough time when I first arrived here back in
>>'96. He didn't suffer fools gladly and boy did he let me know when he
>>believed I was one. But that did me a huge favour. He did have a point
>>inasmuch as my fundamental electronics knowledge needed a lot of
>>remedial attention. So he forced me to sit down and go back through
>>all the stuff I should have known before I came here and I became much
>>better for it. And when I finally did, he praised me for it. Praise
>>from Jim was praise indeed! He was a GIANT of this group and I miss
>>him terribly, too.
>
>He wasn't a bad sort, but I wouldn't call someone a fool because they
>don't understand electronics. "Fool" is reserved for people who
>presume to expertise that they clearly don't have.

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 18:23:38 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:40:03 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:50:50 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 14:48:38 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 22:21:45 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:15:43 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:33:12 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:49:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 11:56:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>>>>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>>>>>><uum4h6$kmdl$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 01-04-2024 09:01, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>>>>>>>>>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I
>>>>>>>>>>> blew up a channel once myself in the first week
>>>>>>>>>>> when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with
>>>>>>>>>>> it, fixed it locating the problem with the other channel.
>>>>>>>>>>> Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from
>>>>>>>>>>> the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>>>>>>>>>> Made a new graticule.
>>>>>>>>>>> So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>>>>>>>>>> For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>>>>>>>>>> and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital meters and an analog one.
>>>>>>>>>>> also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>>>>>>>>>> Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>>>>>>>>>> Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance
>>>>>>>>>>> scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>>>>>>>>>> Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and
>>>>>>>>>>> RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>>>>>>>>>> GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>>>>>>>>>> a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum
>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>>>>>>>>>> Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>>>>>>>>>> Things last forever here...
>>>>>>>>>>> Scope used on a regular basis..
>>>>>>>>>>> RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>>>>>>>>>> Digital meters used every day.
>>>>>>>>>>> Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>>>>>>>>>> What more do you need?
>>>>>>>>>>> Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>>>>>>>>>> When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a meter, still stuff worked.
>>>>>>>>>>> Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>>>>>>>>>> Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>>>>>>>>>> UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>>>>>>>>>> Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>>>>>>>>>> But it does not help you one bit.
>>>>>>>>>>> Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just
>>>>>>>>>>> like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Very true about specifically the 1% statement. Sidebar, at an earlier
>>>>>>>>>> employment, we needed to equip a new lab. Guys wanted GHz scopes. When
>>>>>>>>>> asked if the ever looked at edges faster than 1ns, no one did.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It’s true that there are a lot of relatively undemanding jobs in
>>>>>>>>>electronics. You can get on fine with a 200-MHz scope if all you’re doing
>>>>>>>>>is PIC and Pi and ham radio and analog TV.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Bull,
>>>>>>>>I have been using my Trio 10 MHz dual channel for digital TV too
>>>>>>>>see
>>>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>>>>GHz output..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Its is about UNDERSTANDING the systems
>>>>>>>>You cannot repair a TV set in a short time if you do not UNDERSTAND every part of the circuit and its function, the whole system
>>>>>>>>neither with a 10 MHz or with a 10 GHz scope.
>>>>>>>>Fault finding had been my job most of the time, sometimes with 'the show must go on'
>>>>>>>>or rocket must launch or whatever.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In an environment a million times more complex than your back-room with boat anchors.
>>>>>>>>And always delivered.. unlike some that dropped out or broke down.
>>>>>>>>It is indeed about what is between the ears as you mentioned.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It’s also true that you can often make do with what you have—the most
>>>>>>>>>important test instrument is the one between your ears.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In the before times, doctors were much better with stethoscopes than they
>>>>>>>>>are now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>But I’d sure prefer a cardiologist who could use tomography and ultrasound
>>>>>>>>>over the best stethoscope guy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Only useful if you can read the screens, these days they train AI to find cancer in the scans.....
>>>>>>>>Yes I worked in an Uni hospital too.
>>>>>>>>How many people die each year because of medical errors?
>>>>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
>>>>>>>>Remember Jim Thompson stating 'they are giving me ... but I had a warning I was not supposed to get that'
>>>>>>>>Few days later he was dead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jim had pancreatic cancer, which is notoriously tricky to diagnose due
>>>>>>>to the misleading symptoms it gives rise to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>He talked constantly about wine. That can kill your pancreas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There are people who drink bottles per day.
>>>>>
>>>>>Oh yes, he loved his wine alright. As I recall, you sent him several
>>>>>cases of the stuff over the years. But no amount of peace offerings
>>>>>could placate Jim if he felt you'd disrespected him. Anyway, all
>>>>>credit to you for at least trying to heal the rift, even if it came to
>>>>>naught.
>>>>
>>>>I think I sent him two bottles of Frog's Tooth, not cases.
>>>>
>>>>I get the Frog's Tooth free. The vintner is also our sales rep for
>>>>pick+place gear, and he throws in a bottle or a case with every big
>>>>order.
>>>>
>>>>JT was a little touchy at times (never me!) but we didn't actually
>>>>have a rift. I think that serious electronics designers always get
>>>>along pretty well. Circuit design is a sport that we play.
>>>>
>>>>I miss JT. He was fun. I often drive on Thompkins Street and it
>>>>reminds me of him.
>>>
>>>I think the passage of time has mellowed your recollections, John.
>>>Shortly after he died, you called him a crabby old man!
>>
>>But he *was* a crabby old man. That's no big deal. He probably would
>>have enjoyed the description. He died bravely.
>>
>>There was
>>>something about you he clearly didn't much like.
>>
>>There was some teasing involved. We got along fine in emails.
>>
>>No idea why, since
>>>you've never come across as anything but well-mannered and helpful as
>>>far as I can tell.
>>
>>I can be crabby too, but that's a common hazard on an unmoderated
>>public forum.
>>
>>>Jim gave me a hell of a rough time when I first arrived here back in
>>>'96. He didn't suffer fools gladly and boy did he let me know when he
>>>believed I was one. But that did me a huge favour. He did have a point
>>>inasmuch as my fundamental electronics knowledge needed a lot of
>>>remedial attention. So he forced me to sit down and go back through
>>>all the stuff I should have known before I came here and I became much
>>>better for it. And when I finally did, he praised me for it. Praise
>>>from Jim was praise indeed! He was a GIANT of this group and I miss
>>>him terribly, too.
>>
>>He wasn't a bad sort, but I wouldn't call someone a fool because they
>>don't understand electronics. "Fool" is reserved for people who
>>presume to expertise that they clearly don't have.
>
>Well, you're a great deal more equable than Jim was, despite the BMD,
>John.
>I found getting excoriated by Jim gave me the impetus I needed to get
>off my arse and engage in some serious study on the subject. He did me
>a huge favour as it was exactly the motivation I needed. I discovered
>I wasn't as accomplished at electronics as I thought I was. He put me
>in my place. My strengths lie in other areas and none of us can excel
>at everything. I'll never be a designer. I'm just a hobbyist and will
>ever remain one. But that's fine, because all the time I find it a
>challenge, I'll be hooked. I quickly lose interest in subjects that I
>find easy to master.

On 4/7/2024 5:38 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

>
>
> We all remember all sorts of stuff about Jim, much of it very good. He
> certainly raised the technical level here, which I for one miss very much.
++

>
> For the remainder, it’s best to follow the good old rule of not speaking
> ill of the dead (or of the living, mostly).
+100

Ed

> We stand or fall by what we
> make of what we’re given, which is well worth keeping in mind.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 11:11:51 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 18:23:38 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:40:03 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:50:50 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 14:48:38 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 22:21:45 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:15:43 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:33:12 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:49:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 11:56:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>>>>>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>>>>>>><uum4h6$kmdl$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 01-04-2024 09:01, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>>>>>>>>>>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> blew up a channel once myself in the first week
>>>>>>>>>>>> when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with
>>>>>>>>>>>> it, fixed it locating the problem with the other channel.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from
>>>>>>>>>>>> the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>>>>>>>>>>> Made a new graticule.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>>>>>>>>>>> For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>>>>>>>>>>> and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital meters and an analog one.
>>>>>>>>>>>> also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>> interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance
>>>>>>>>>>>> scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>>>>>>>>>>> Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and
>>>>>>>>>>>> RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>>>>>>>>>>> GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>>>>>>>>>>> a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum
>>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Things last forever here...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scope used on a regular basis..
>>>>>>>>>>>> RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Digital meters used every day.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>>>>>>>>>>> What more do you need?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>>>>>>>>>>> When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a meter, still stuff worked.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>>>>>>>>>>> UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>>>>>>>>>>> But it does not help you one bit.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just
>>>>>>>>>>>> like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Very true about specifically the 1% statement. Sidebar, at an earlier
>>>>>>>>>>> employment, we needed to equip a new lab. Guys wanted GHz scopes. When
>>>>>>>>>>> asked if the ever looked at edges faster than 1ns, no one did.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>It’s true that there are a lot of relatively undemanding jobs in
>>>>>>>>>>electronics. You can get on fine with a 200-MHz scope if all you’re doing
>>>>>>>>>>is PIC and Pi and ham radio and analog TV.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Bull,
>>>>>>>>>I have been using my Trio 10 MHz dual channel for digital TV too
>>>>>>>>>see
>>>>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>>>>>GHz output..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Its is about UNDERSTANDING the systems
>>>>>>>>>You cannot repair a TV set in a short time if you do not UNDERSTAND every part of the circuit and its function, the whole system
>>>>>>>>>neither with a 10 MHz or with a 10 GHz scope.
>>>>>>>>>Fault finding had been my job most of the time, sometimes with 'the show must go on'
>>>>>>>>>or rocket must launch or whatever.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In an environment a million times more complex than your back-room with boat anchors.
>>>>>>>>>And always delivered.. unlike some that dropped out or broke down.
>>>>>>>>>It is indeed about what is between the ears as you mentioned.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>It’s also true that you can often make do with what you have—the most
>>>>>>>>>>important test instrument is the one between your ears.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>In the before times, doctors were much better with stethoscopes than they
>>>>>>>>>>are now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>But I’d sure prefer a cardiologist who could use tomography and ultrasound
>>>>>>>>>>over the best stethoscope guy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Only useful if you can read the screens, these days they train AI to find cancer in the scans.....
>>>>>>>>>Yes I worked in an Uni hospital too.
>>>>>>>>>How many people die each year because of medical errors?
>>>>>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
>>>>>>>>>Remember Jim Thompson stating 'they are giving me ... but I had a warning I was not supposed to get that'
>>>>>>>>>Few days later he was dead.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Jim had pancreatic cancer, which is notoriously tricky to diagnose due
>>>>>>>>to the misleading symptoms it gives rise to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>He talked constantly about wine. That can kill your pancreas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>There are people who drink bottles per day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Oh yes, he loved his wine alright. As I recall, you sent him several
>>>>>>cases of the stuff over the years. But no amount of peace offerings
>>>>>>could placate Jim if he felt you'd disrespected him. Anyway, all
>>>>>>credit to you for at least trying to heal the rift, even if it came to
>>>>>>naught.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think I sent him two bottles of Frog's Tooth, not cases.
>>>>>
>>>>>I get the Frog's Tooth free. The vintner is also our sales rep for
>>>>>pick+place gear, and he throws in a bottle or a case with every big
>>>>>order.
>>>>>
>>>>>JT was a little touchy at times (never me!) but we didn't actually
>>>>>have a rift. I think that serious electronics designers always get
>>>>>along pretty well. Circuit design is a sport that we play.
>>>>>
>>>>>I miss JT. He was fun. I often drive on Thompkins Street and it
>>>>>reminds me of him.
>>>>
>>>>I think the passage of time has mellowed your recollections, John.
>>>>Shortly after he died, you called him a crabby old man!
>>>
>>>But he *was* a crabby old man. That's no big deal. He probably would
>>>have enjoyed the description. He died bravely.
>>>
>>>There was
>>>>something about you he clearly didn't much like.
>>>
>>>There was some teasing involved. We got along fine in emails.
>>>
>>>No idea why, since
>>>>you've never come across as anything but well-mannered and helpful as
>>>>far as I can tell.
>>>
>>>I can be crabby too, but that's a common hazard on an unmoderated
>>>public forum.
>>>
>>>>Jim gave me a hell of a rough time when I first arrived here back in
>>>>'96. He didn't suffer fools gladly and boy did he let me know when he
>>>>believed I was one. But that did me a huge favour. He did have a point
>>>>inasmuch as my fundamental electronics knowledge needed a lot of
>>>>remedial attention. So he forced me to sit down and go back through
>>>>all the stuff I should have known before I came here and I became much
>>>>better for it. And when I finally did, he praised me for it. Praise
>>>>from Jim was praise indeed! He was a GIANT of this group and I miss
>>>>him terribly, too.
>>>
>>>He wasn't a bad sort, but I wouldn't call someone a fool because they
>>>don't understand electronics. "Fool" is reserved for people who
>>>presume to expertise that they clearly don't have.
>>
>>Well, you're a great deal more equable than Jim was, despite the BMD,
>>John.
>>I found getting excoriated by Jim gave me the impetus I needed to get
>>off my arse and engage in some serious study on the subject. He did me
>>a huge favour as it was exactly the motivation I needed. I discovered
>>I wasn't as accomplished at electronics as I thought I was. He put me
>>in my place. My strengths lie in other areas and none of us can excel
>>at everything. I'll never be a designer. I'm just a hobbyist and will
>>ever remain one. But that's fine, because all the time I find it a
>>challenge, I'll be hooked. I quickly lose interest in subjects that I
>>find easy to master.
>
>I think that electronics design is instinctive, and only some people
>have those instincts, and they usually acquire them at a very early
>age. It's not fair, for those people who have the instincts, to
>denegerate people who don't. I suck at tennis and music and French.
>
>I'm now mightly confused with switching four tapped inductors around
>with relays. What idiot decided that inductance should increase with
>turns squared?