[[Mod. note -- I have inserted a few blank lines so as to more clearly
mark the transitions between quoted material and what this author has
written. -- jt]]

On Monday, 25 October 2021 at 15:48:53 UTC+1, h..com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 12:02:26 AM UTC-6, z...gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > An article about Black Holes, Neutron Stars, Fusion, Electromagnetism and Gravity.
> >
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-o08Dao8HJhwgJH-09vzHwvinhwbfKTOY6_gWmpXWPg/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > The article is 38 pages long in print format of font size 11.
> > 38 pages may seem daunting, but lot of the space is taken up by
> > relevant images that express the ideas.
> > This article is highly speculative, but for good reason since it is of
> > things that show anomalies in the
> > standard model. Take your time while reading it to give it some
> > thought before you comment.
>
> I haven't read the whole thing, only up to page 8. But I found a
> problem on the FIRST page:
>
> He's blaming light bending around the sun on refraction of the corona.
> He has NO calculation of how big that would be: scientists have, and
> it's not nearly big enough.

This is a false assumption. The author of the paper probably didn't do
a calculation of what the refractive index...because the density of the
Corona and thus its refractive index isn't known! Quite how "scientists"
did the calculations of its refractive index is the big question Gary should
be asking.

>Besides that, Cassini measured the angle at
> two different frequencies because refraction due to the corona is
> frequency-dependent. Their results disagreed with refraction on two
> counts.

Once again a problem with "scientists" deciding what the refractive
index of the Corona is. (Even though They havent the faintest idea
of what the density and thus refractive index of the Corona is.)

And regarding "seperate frequency" measurements by Cassini.
Interesting non point considering any viable comparison should be
between two very different frequencies in simultaneous observations.
Like radio and x ray. Which have never been made. Cassini did it
in two almost identical radio frequencies.

>
> Based on this, I don't believe he thinks deeply enough. Besides, I have
> my own biases :-)
>
> Gary
>
> [Moderator's note: Indeed. I glanced over it and there are several
> questionable things in it. On the whole, I would say that it is too
> speculative. -P.H.]

Speculative maybe,...but I see no evidence to rule it out in Gary's post.

[[Mod. note -- The author is mistaken as to the Cassini measurements
and their interpretation as gravitational time delays (the Shapiro effect)
versus plasma delays.

Looking at
B Bertotti, L. Less, and P. Tortora
"A test of general relativity using radio links with the Cassini spacecraft"
Nature 425, 374-376
open-access copy currently available at
https://lorentz.leidenuniv.nl/research/vanbaal/DECEASED/ART/gr-test.pdf
we see that Cassini actually used frequencies of 7.2 Ghz and 34.3 GHz
(uplink) and 8.4 GHz and 32.0 GHz (downlink), which are clearly not
"almost identical".

Moreover, figure 2 of that paper shows that the calculated gravitational
signal has a time variation closely matching the theoretical prediction
(equation (2) of the paper), which would not be the case if the frequency
shifts were actually caused by plasma delays. The interpretation as
gravitational time delay is further strengthened by the consistency
checks the authors describe in the "Method" section on p.376 of that
paper, and by the results shown in the supplementary figure (currently
available open-access on the /nature.com/ website.

The Cassini results are also consistent with a wide range of other
measurements of general-relativistic light-bending and time delay.
See, for example, figure 2 of Clifford M Will's fascinating paper
arXiv:1409.7812.
-- jt]]

On Thursday, 27 January 2022 at 04:19:12 UTC, Lou wrote:
> [[Mod. note -- I have inserted a few blank lines so as to more clearly
> mark the transitions between quoted material and what this author has
> written. -- jt]]
>
> On Monday, 25 October 2021 at 15:48:53 UTC+1, h..com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 12:02:26 AM UTC-6, z...gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > An article about Black Holes, Neutron Stars, Fusion, Electromagnetism and Gravity.
> > >
> > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-o08Dao8HJhwgJH-09vzHwvinhwbfKTOY6_gWmpXWPg/edit?usp=sharing
> > >
> > > The article is 38 pages long in print format of font size 11.
> > > 38 pages may seem daunting, but lot of the space is taken up by
> > > relevant images that express the ideas.
> > > This article is highly speculative, but for good reason since it is of
> > > things that show anomalies in the
> > > standard model. Take your time while reading it to give it some
> > > thought before you comment.
> >
> > I haven't read the whole thing, only up to page 8. But I found a
> > problem on the FIRST page:
> >
> > He's blaming light bending around the sun on refraction of the corona.
> > He has NO calculation of how big that would be: scientists have, and
> > it's not nearly big enough.
> This is a false assumption. The author of the paper probably didn't do
> a calculation of what the refractive index...because the density of the
> Corona and thus its refractive index isn't known! Quite how "scientists"
> did the calculations of its refractive index is the big question Gary should
> be asking.
> >Besides that, Cassini measured the angle at
> > two different frequencies because refraction due to the corona is
> > frequency-dependent. Their results disagreed with refraction on two
> > counts.
> Once again a problem with "scientists" deciding what the refractive
> index of the Corona is. (Even though They havent the faintest idea
> of what the density and thus refractive index of the Corona is.)
>
> And regarding "seperate frequency" measurements by Cassini.
> Interesting non point considering any viable comparison should be
> between two very different frequencies in simultaneous observations.
> Like radio and x ray. Which have never been made. Cassini did it
> in two almost identical radio frequencies.
> >
> > Based on this, I don't believe he thinks deeply enough. Besides, I have
> > my own biases :-)
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > [Moderator's note: Indeed. I glanced over it and there are several
> > questionable things in it. On the whole, I would say that it is too
> > speculative. -P.H.]
> Speculative maybe,...but I see no evidence to rule it out in Gary's post.
>
>
> [[Mod. note -- The author is mistaken as to the Cassini measurements
> and their interpretation as gravitational time delays (the Shapiro effect)
> versus plasma delays.
I wasn't disputing the assumptions about GR made in the paper.
I was only pointing out the paper, Gary or any other source have no
confirmed measurements of the density or refractive index of the corona.
How then is it possible to rule out refraction..if we don't know
what the refraction index of the corona is?
>
> Looking at
> B Bertotti, L. Less, and P. Tortora
> "A test of general relativity using radio links with the Cassini spacecraft"
> Nature 425, 374-376
> open-access copy currently available at
> https://lorentz.leidenuniv.nl/research/vanbaal/DECEASED/ART/gr-test.pdf
> we see that Cassini actually used frequencies of 7.2 Ghz and 34.3 GHz
> (uplink) and 8.4 GHz and 32.0 GHz (downlink), which are clearly not
> "almost identical".
>

Almost identical is is 42 to 8 ( Cassini test radio range in millions of nano meters.)
A good spread to test Refraction would be a spread of
42 to 0.0000001 ( radio to x ray)

> Moreover, figure 2 of that paper shows that the calculated gravitational
> signal has a time variation closely matching the theoretical prediction
> (equation (2) of the paper), which would not be the case if the frequency
> shifts were actually caused by plasma delays.
? I see nowhere in the paper you cite or elsewhere in the published
domain that provides conclusive and reliable in situ measurements of
the corona, its density and refractive index. Any assumptions made
are without substantiation.
In fact the current best method to measure a refractive index is
to measure how much light is bent by the medium in question.
Is that not correct?

>The interpretation as
> gravitational time delay is further strengthened by the consistency
> checks the authors describe in the "Method" section on p.376 of that
> paper, and by the results shown in the supplementary figure (currently
> available open-access on the /nature.com/ website.
>
Of course...but the question is not if GR can supply the correct prediction.
The question is what is the measured density and refractive
index of the corona. The answer is...no one knows.
> The Cassini results are also consistent with a wide range of other
> measurements of general-relativistic light-bending and time delay.
> See, for example, figure 2 of Clifford M Will's fascinating paper
> arXiv:1409.7812.
> -- jt]]
If I can also point out a quote from the above cited paper (author
Bertotti et al.) They claim only GR can correctly predict the anomalous
preccession of Mercury. This is a false claim. In fact Le Verrier did
correctly model the observed preccession of mercury by spreading
the suns mass across its volume. Although he incorrectly assume
the presence of the planet Vulcan, his N3 body calculations did
spread the mass of the sun across its volume. Proving beyond
doubt that the mass of any object like a planet is spread across
its volume. Not confined, as Newton thought, to a singularity at its
center. This conclusion is confirmed by experiments such as
Schiehallion
(It's no wonder Newton was opposed to these types of
experiments. They contradicted his own assertion that all of the
planets mass was located at its theoretical center)

[[Mod. note --
1. Since the solar corona's index of refraction is frequency-dependent,
measuring the Shapiro delay at multiple frequencies does in fact
allow the corona's (frequency-dependent) index of refraction to be
calculated -- that's why Cassini used multiple frequencies!
2. Another way to avoid contamination by solar-corona effects is to measure
the bending of *visible* light. This is hard to do with ground-based
experiments, but the ESA's Hipparcos satellite measured light bending
over *the entire sky*, including regions of the sky > 90 degrees away
from the Sun (where the effects of the solar corona are negligible).
3. We actually know the Sun's density profile (and hence its quadrupole
moment J_2, which is what you're referring to) very well, thanks to
helioseismology mesaurements. You can't (correctly) model the observed
precession of Mercury (not to mention those of Venus, Earth, and Mars,
all of whose orbital precessions are also well-observed) using Newtonian
gravity and the Solar mass distribution.
4. Newton never asserted that all of a planet's (or the Sun's) mass was
located at its center. Rather, he (correctly) calculated that the
external gravitational field of an extended spherically symmetric mass
distribution is the same as it would be if all the mass were located
at the center. (Calculating the external gravitational field of an
extended mass distribution requires calculus, which Newton invented
in part to address this question.)
5. Newton was well aware of the possibility of experiments such as the
Schiehallion experiment (the measurement of the external gravitational
field of a mountain), but mistakenly thought that the effects would
be to small to be accurately measured. Fortunately, he was wrong.
-- jt]]