For a long time there has been a debate, especialy in academic circles
studying new religious movements (NRMs) about the use and usage of the
word "cult". See here:

https://t.co/ZGXbOfER3I

In my view there are legitimate and illegitimate uses of the word.
Here's an example:

Legitimate: The cult of St George was taken to England by the
crusaders.

Illegitimate: The Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult phenomenon.

A cult is something that people *do*.

A cult is not something that people or a group of people *are*.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 2024-05-29, Steve Hayes wrote:

> For a long time there has been a debate, especialy in academic circles
> studying new religious movements (NRMs) about the use and usage of the
> word "cult". See here:
>
> https://t.co/ZGXbOfER3I
>
> In my view there are legitimate and illegitimate uses of the word.
> Here's an example:
>
> Legitimate: The cult of St George was taken to England by the
> crusaders.
>
> Illegitimate: The Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult phenomenon.
>
> A cult is something that people *do*.
>
> A cult is not something that people or a group of people *are*.

I get your point ("cult of X" as a scholarly term) but it's obvious
from the context which meaning applies.

--
You could tell by the way that he talked, though, that he had gone to
school a long time. That was probably what was wrong with him. George
had been wise enough to get out of school as soon as possible. He
didn't want to end up like that guy. [A Conf. of Dunces]

Steve Hayes:

> A cult is something that people *do*.
>
> A cult is not something that people or a group of people
> *are*.

I have no problem with either meaning, and consider the
second one as bearing negative connotations in colluquial
speech. Britannica online concurs:

usually small group devoted to a person, idea, or
philosophy. The term /cult/ is often applied to a
religious movement that exists in some degree of
tension with the dominant religious or cultural
inclination of a society. In recent years the word
cult has been most commonly used as a pejorative term
for a religious group that falls outside the
mainstream and, by implication, engages in
questionable activities. Many new religions are
controversially labeled as cults.

as do many dictionaries. I also believe this is an old
meaning used by good writers.

> Illegitimate: The Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult
> phenomenon.

This is ugly anyway, because "cult phenomenon" is a lousy
phrase for "cult". Some useful noun phrases with the
adjective "cult" are "cult following", "cult status", and
"cult building".

I should rather call YWs a sect, though. Satatism, on the
other hand, is a cult. Satanists comprise a cult. Apple
afficionados comprise another.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

On Thu, 30 May 2024 01:18:02 +0300, Anton Shepelev
<anton.txt@gmail.moc> wrote:

>Steve Hayes:
>
>> A cult is something that people *do*.
>>
>> A cult is not something that people or a group of people
>> *are*.
>
>I have no problem with either meaning, and consider the
>second one as bearing negative connotations in colluquial
>speech. Britannica online concurs:
>
> usually small group devoted to a person, idea, or
> philosophy. The term /cult/ is often applied to a
> religious movement that exists in some degree of
> tension with the dominant religious or cultural
> inclination of a society. In recent years the word
> cult has been most commonly used as a pejorative term
> for a religious group that falls outside the
> mainstream and, by implication, engages in
> questionable activities. Many new religions are
> controversially labeled as cults.
>
>as do many dictionaries. I also believe this is an old
>meaning used by good writers.

It is because of that usage that the academics want to ban all use of
the term.

But my Concise Oxford Dictionary has

cult n. System of religious worship; devotion, homage to person or
thing (the ~ of).

And I believe that there is no simple synonym to convey that meaning,
and that it should therefore not be banned from academic usage when
used in that sense, because it is not intrinsically pejorative, as it
tends to be when used in the other sense.

>
>> Illegitimate: The Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult
>> phenomenon.
>
>This is ugly anyway, because "cult phenomenon" is a lousy
>phrase for "cult". Some useful noun phrases with the
>adjective "cult" are "cult following", "cult status", and
>"cult building".
>
>I should rather call YWs a sect, though. Satatism, on the
>other hand, is a cult. Satanists comprise a cult. Apple
>afficionados comprise another.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Steve Hayes wrote:

> On Thu, 30 May 2024 01:18:02 +0300, Anton Shepelev
> <anton.txt@gmail.moc> wrote:

>>Steve Hayes:
>>
>>> A cult is something that people *do*.
>>>
>>> A cult is not something that people or a group of people
>>> *are*.
>>
>>I have no problem with either meaning, and consider the
>>second one as bearing negative connotations in colluquial
>>speech. Britannica online concurs:
>>
>> usually small group devoted to a person, idea, or
>> philosophy. The term /cult/ is often applied to a
>> religious movement that exists in some degree of
>> tension with the dominant religious or cultural
>> inclination of a society. In recent years the word
>> cult has been most commonly used as a pejorative term
>> for a religious group that falls outside the
>> mainstream and, by implication, engages in
>> questionable activities. Many new religions are
>> controversially labeled as cults.
>>
>>as do many dictionaries. I also believe this is an old
>>meaning used by good writers.

> It is because of that usage that the academics want to ban all use of
> the term.

> But my Concise Oxford Dictionary has

> cult n. System of religious worship; devotion, homage to person or
> thing (the ~ of).

> And I believe that there is no simple synonym to convey that meaning,
> and that it should therefore not be banned from academic usage when
> used in that sense, because it is not intrinsically pejorative, as it
> tends to be when used in the other sense.
...

Well, I'd think academics should be able to handle that. But
"the veneration of St. George" seems to be a possibility.

I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
"cult of personality".

--
Jerry Friedman

On 1/06/2024 1:54 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
> Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 01:18:02 +0300, Anton Shepelev
>> <anton.txt@gmail.moc> wrote:
>
>>> Steve Hayes:
>>>
>>>> A cult is something that people *do*.
>>>>
>>>> A cult is not something that people or a group of people
>>>> *are*.
>>>
>>> I have no problem with either meaning, and consider the
>>> second one as bearing negative connotations in colluquial
>>> speech.  Britannica online concurs:
>>>
>>>   usually small group devoted to a person, idea, or
>>>   philosophy.  The term /cult/ is often applied to a
>>>   religious movement that exists in some degree of
>>>   tension with the dominant religious or cultural
>>>   inclination of a society.  In recent years the word
>>>   cult has been most commonly used as a pejorative term
>>>   for a religious group that falls outside the
>>>   mainstream and, by implication, engages in
>>>   questionable activities. Many new religions are
>>>   controversially labeled as cults.
>>>
>>> as do many dictionaries.  I also believe this is an old
>>> meaning used by good writers.
>
>> It is because of that usage that the academics want to ban all use of
>> the term.
>
>> But my Concise Oxford Dictionary has
>
>> cult n. System of religious worship; devotion, homage to person or
>> thing (the ~ of).
>
>> And I believe that there is no simple synonym to convey that meaning,
>> and that it should therefore not be banned from academic usage when
>> used in that sense, because it is not intrinsically pejorative, as it
>> tends to be when used in the other sense.
> ..
>
> Well, I'd think academics should be able to handle that.  But
> "the veneration of St. George" seems to be a possibility.
>
> I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
> "cult of personality".

I have opined here before that whoever thus translated Russian культа
личности made two bad choices, since both "cult" and "personality" have
more prominent senses in English which are inappropriate.
"Worship/veneration of an individual" would have been more accurate,
but, I guess, less snappy.

Ross Clark wrote:

> On 1/06/2024 1:54 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 01:18:02 +0300, Anton Shepelev
>>> <anton.txt@gmail.moc> wrote:
>>
>>>> Steve Hayes:
>>>>
>>>>> A cult is something that people *do*.
>>>>>
>>>>> A cult is not something that people or a group of people
>>>>> *are*.
>>>>
>>>> I have no problem with either meaning, and consider the
>>>> second one as bearing negative connotations in colluquial
>>>> speech.  Britannica online concurs:
>>>>
>>>>   usually small group devoted to a person, idea, or
>>>>   philosophy.  The term /cult/ is often applied to a
>>>>   religious movement that exists in some degree of
>>>>   tension with the dominant religious or cultural
>>>>   inclination of a society.  In recent years the word
>>>>   cult has been most commonly used as a pejorative term
>>>>   for a religious group that falls outside the
>>>>   mainstream and, by implication, engages in
>>>>   questionable activities. Many new religions are
>>>>   controversially labeled as cults.
>>>>
>>>> as do many dictionaries.  I also believe this is an old
>>>> meaning used by good writers.
>>
>>> It is because of that usage that the academics want to ban all use of
>>> the term.
>>
>>> But my Concise Oxford Dictionary has
>>
>>> cult n. System of religious worship; devotion, homage to person or
>>> thing (the ~ of).
>>
>>> And I believe that there is no simple synonym to convey that meaning,
>>> and that it should therefore not be banned from academic usage when
>>> used in that sense, because it is not intrinsically pejorative, as it
>>> tends to be when used in the other sense.
>> ..
>>
>> Well, I'd think academics should be able to handle that.  But
>> "the veneration of St. George" seems to be a possibility.
>>
>> I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
>> "cult of personality".

> I have opined here before that whoever thus translated Russian культа
> личности made two bad choices, since both "cult" and "personality" have
>
> more prominent senses in English which are inappropriate.
> "Worship/veneration of an individual" would have been more accurate,
> but, I guess, less snappy.

The phrase already existed in English, according to the OED. I wonder
whether the Russian phrase was translated from English.

cult of personality: a collective obsession with, or intense,
excessive, or uncritical admiration for, a particular public figure,
esp. a political leader; the instigation of such an obsession; cf.
personality cult n.

Frequently associated with totalitarian leaders (esp. Stalin) and
their idealized portrayal by means of propaganda, manipulation of
the mass media, etc.

1898
The Oriental voyage of his spectacular Majesty, William II.,
gives the German newspapers plenty of opportunity for speculation,
and incidentally offers many examples of the peculiar cult of
personality indulged in by the German people.
New York Times 6 November 19/7

1920
In politics, as in the army and boxing, the cult of personality
is in the ascendant.
Observer 26 September 12/2

1933
Hanfstaengl..coached [Hitler]..in the introduction of
high-pressure American advertising methods. The cult of
personality until then was almost unknown in German political
life.
Billings (Montana) Gazette 5 March 15/3

1953
Such incorrect methods of work..‘often result in one-sided,
poorly-devised, and..erroneous decisions,’ the editorial [in
the official journal of the Cominform] added. It branded the
cult of personality as ‘harmful and intolerable’ and contrary
to ‘Marx Leninism’.
Times 8 September 6/6

--
Jerry Friedman

On Fri, 31 May 2024 13:54:10 +0000, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
(jerryfriedman) wrote:

>Steve Hayes wrote:

>> But my Concise Oxford Dictionary has
>
>> cult n. System of religious worship; devotion, homage to person or
>> thing (the ~ of).
>
>> And I believe that there is no simple synonym to convey that meaning,
>> and that it should therefore not be banned from academic usage when
>> used in that sense, because it is not intrinsically pejorative, as it
>> tends to be when used in the other sense.
>..
>
>Well, I'd think academics should be able to handle that. But
>"the veneration of St. George" seems to be a possibility.
>
>I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
>"cult of personality".

"A personality veneration"?

And would that work as the title of this book -- substituting "The
Veneration of Rhodes" for "The Cult of Rhodes"?

https://khanya.wordpress.com/2016/08/10/the-cult-of-rhodes/

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Fri, 31 May 2024 22:31:08 +0000, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
(jerryfriedman) wrote:

>Ross Clark wrote:
>
>> On 1/06/2024 1:54 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
>>> I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
>>> "cult of personality".
>
>> I have opined here before that whoever thus translated Russian ??????
>> ???????? made two bad choices, since both "cult" and "personality" have
>>
>> more prominent senses in English which are inappropriate.
>> "Worship/veneration of an individual" would have been more accurate,
>> but, I guess, less snappy.
>
>The phrase already existed in English, according to the OED. I wonder
>whether the Russian phrase was translated from English.
>
>cult of personality: a collective obsession with, or intense,
>excessive, or uncritical admiration for, a particular public figure,
>esp. a political leader; the instigation of such an obsession; cf.
>personality cult n.

The term "personality cult" also covers things like celebrity cults.

Could one call them "celebrity venerations" or "celebrity worships"?

>Frequently associated with totalitarian leaders (esp. Stalin) and
>their idealized portrayal by means of propaganda, manipulation of
>the mass media, etc.
>
>1898
>The Oriental voyage of his spectacular Majesty, William II.,
>gives the German newspapers plenty of opportunity for speculation,
>and incidentally offers many examples of the peculiar cult of
>personality indulged in by the German people.
>New York Times 6 November 19/7
>
>1920
>In politics, as in the army and boxing, the cult of personality
>is in the ascendant.
>Observer 26 September 12/2

Still true today, At least in South Africa, most of the news media
concentrate on the personalities of politicians, and their personal
and social lives rather than on their policies.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

jerryfriedman wrote:

> Ross Clark wrote:

>> On 1/06/2024 1:54 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
>>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 01:18:02 +0300, Anton Shepelev
>>>> <anton.txt@gmail.moc> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Steve Hayes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A cult is something that people *do*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A cult is not something that people or a group of people
>>>>>> *are*.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no problem with either meaning, and consider the
>>>>> second one as bearing negative connotations in colluquial
>>>>> speech.  Britannica online concurs:
>>>>>
>>>>>   usually small group devoted to a person, idea, or
>>>>>   philosophy.  The term /cult/ is often applied to a
>>>>>   religious movement that exists in some degree of
>>>>>   tension with the dominant religious or cultural
>>>>>   inclination of a society.  In recent years the word
>>>>>   cult has been most commonly used as a pejorative term
>>>>>   for a religious group that falls outside the
>>>>>   mainstream and, by implication, engages in
>>>>>   questionable activities. Many new religions are
>>>>>   controversially labeled as cults.
>>>>>
>>>>> as do many dictionaries.  I also believe this is an old
>>>>> meaning used by good writers.
>>>
>>>> It is because of that usage that the academics want to ban all use of
>>>> the term.
>>>
>>>> But my Concise Oxford Dictionary has
>>>
>>>> cult n. System of religious worship; devotion, homage to person or
>>>> thing (the ~ of).
>>>
>>>> And I believe that there is no simple synonym to convey that meaning,
>>>> and that it should therefore not be banned from academic usage when
>>>> used in that sense, because it is not intrinsically pejorative, as it
>>>> tends to be when used in the other sense.
>>> ..
>>>
>>> Well, I'd think academics should be able to handle that.  But
>>> "the veneration of St. George" seems to be a possibility.
>>>
>>> I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
>>> "cult of personality".

>> I have opined here before that whoever thus translated Russian культа
>> личности made two bad choices, since both "cult" and "personality" have
>>
>> more prominent senses in English which are inappropriate.
>> "Worship/veneration of an individual" would have been more accurate,
>> but, I guess, less snappy.

> The phrase already existed in English, according to the OED. I wonder
> whether the Russian phrase was translated from English.

> cult of personality: a collective obsession with, or intense,
> excessive, or uncritical admiration for, a particular public figure,
> esp. a political leader; the instigation of such an obsession; cf.
> personality cult n.

> Frequently associated with totalitarian leaders (esp. Stalin) and
> their idealized portrayal by means of propaganda, manipulation of
> the mass media, etc.

> 1898
> The Oriental voyage of his spectacular Majesty, William II.,
> gives the German newspapers plenty of opportunity for speculation,
> and incidentally offers many examples of the peculiar cult of
> personality indulged in by the German people.
> New York Times 6 November 19/7

> 1920
> In politics, as in the army and boxing, the cult of personality
> is in the ascendant.
> Observer 26 September 12/2

> 1933
> Hanfstaengl..coached [Hitler]..in the introduction of
> high-pressure American advertising methods. The cult of
> personality until then was almost unknown in German political
> life.
> Billings (Montana) Gazette 5 March 15/3

> 1953
> Such incorrect methods of work..‘often result in one-sided,
> poorly-devised, and..erroneous decisions,’ the editorial [in
> the official journal of the Cominform] added. It branded the
> cult of personality as ‘harmful and intolerable’ and contrary
> to ‘Marx Leninism’.
> Times 8 September 6/6

as far as Stalin is concerned, I would like to add the quasi-religious
aspect.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personenkult#/media/Datei:A_German_civilian_looks_at_a_large_poster_portrait_of_Stalin_on_the_Unter-den-Linden_in_Berlin,_3_June_1945._BU8572.jpg
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinismus#/media/Datei:JStalin_Secretary_general_CCCP_1942.jpg

For religious exaltation related to an emperor (who wasn't a dictator),
see also
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25108483?seq=6

Regards, ULF

On 1/06/2024 10:31 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
> Ross Clark wrote:
>
>> On 1/06/2024 1:54 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
>>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 01:18:02 +0300, Anton Shepelev
>>>> <anton.txt@gmail.moc> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Steve Hayes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A cult is something that people *do*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A cult is not something that people or a group of people
>>>>>> *are*.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no problem with either meaning, and consider the
>>>>> second one as bearing negative connotations in colluquial
>>>>> speech.  Britannica online concurs:
>>>>>
>>>>>   usually small group devoted to a person, idea, or
>>>>>   philosophy.  The term /cult/ is often applied to a
>>>>>   religious movement that exists in some degree of
>>>>>   tension with the dominant religious or cultural
>>>>>   inclination of a society.  In recent years the word
>>>>>   cult has been most commonly used as a pejorative term
>>>>>   for a religious group that falls outside the
>>>>>   mainstream and, by implication, engages in
>>>>>   questionable activities. Many new religions are
>>>>>   controversially labeled as cults.
>>>>>
>>>>> as do many dictionaries.  I also believe this is an old
>>>>> meaning used by good writers.
>>>
>>>> It is because of that usage that the academics want to ban all use of
>>>> the term.
>>>
>>>> But my Concise Oxford Dictionary has
>>>
>>>> cult n. System of religious worship; devotion, homage to person or
>>>> thing (the ~ of).
>>>
>>>> And I believe that there is no simple synonym to convey that meaning,
>>>> and that it should therefore not be banned from academic usage when
>>>> used in that sense, because it is not intrinsically pejorative, as it
>>>> tends to be when used in the other sense.
>>> ..
>>>
>>> Well, I'd think academics should be able to handle that.  But
>>> "the veneration of St. George" seems to be a possibility.
>>>
>>> I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
>>> "cult of personality".
>
>> I have opined here before that whoever thus translated Russian культа
>> личности made two bad choices, since both "cult" and "personality" have
>>
>> more prominent senses in English which are inappropriate.
>> "Worship/veneration of an individual" would have been more accurate,
>> but, I guess, less snappy.
>
> The phrase already existed in English, according to the OED.  I wonder
> whether the Russian phrase was translated from English.
>
> cult of personality: a collective obsession with, or intense,
> excessive, or uncritical admiration for, a particular public figure,
> esp. a political leader; the instigation of such an obsession; cf.
> personality cult n.
>
> Frequently associated with totalitarian leaders (esp. Stalin) and
> their idealized portrayal by means of propaganda, manipulation of
> the mass media, etc.
>
> 1898
> The Oriental voyage of his spectacular Majesty, William II.,
> gives the German newspapers plenty of opportunity for speculation,
> and incidentally offers many examples of the peculiar cult of
> personality indulged in by the German people.
> New York Times 6 November 19/7
>
> 1920
> In politics, as in the army and boxing, the cult of personality
> is in the ascendant.
> Observer 26 September 12/2
>
> 1933
> Hanfstaengl..coached [Hitler]..in the introduction of
> high-pressure American advertising methods. The cult of
> personality until then was almost unknown in German political
> life.
> Billings (Montana) Gazette 5 March 15/3
>
> 1953
> Such incorrect methods of work..‘often result in one-sided,
> poorly-devised, and..erroneous decisions,’ the editorial [in
> the official journal of the Cominform] added. It branded the
> cult of personality as ‘harmful and intolerable’ and contrary
> to ‘Marx Leninism’.
> Times 8 September 6/6
>

Well, well. I had always assumed it was a Russian coinage in
retrospective critique of Stalin, perhaps from Khrushchev's famous 1956
speech. I guess that just reflects the period when I first heard it.

OED doesn't suggest a remoter origin, and the 1898 quote looks as if
it's already a known concept. Could be from some 19th century (German?)
political philosopher.

I still think the prevalent senses of the two words create a somewhat
distorted understanding of the phrase among English speakers.

On 1/06/2024 11:22 p.m., Ross Clark wrote:
> On 1/06/2024 10:31 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
>> Ross Clark wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/06/2024 1:54 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
>>>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 01:18:02 +0300, Anton Shepelev
>>>>> <anton.txt@gmail.moc> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Hayes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A cult is something that people *do*.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A cult is not something that people or a group of people
>>>>>>> *are*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no problem with either meaning, and consider the
>>>>>> second one as bearing negative connotations in colluquial
>>>>>> speech.  Britannica online concurs:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   usually small group devoted to a person, idea, or
>>>>>>   philosophy.  The term /cult/ is often applied to a
>>>>>>   religious movement that exists in some degree of
>>>>>>   tension with the dominant religious or cultural
>>>>>>   inclination of a society.  In recent years the word
>>>>>>   cult has been most commonly used as a pejorative term
>>>>>>   for a religious group that falls outside the
>>>>>>   mainstream and, by implication, engages in
>>>>>>   questionable activities. Many new religions are
>>>>>>   controversially labeled as cults.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> as do many dictionaries.  I also believe this is an old
>>>>>> meaning used by good writers.
>>>>
>>>>> It is because of that usage that the academics want to ban all use of
>>>>> the term.
>>>>
>>>>> But my Concise Oxford Dictionary has
>>>>
>>>>> cult n. System of religious worship; devotion, homage to person or
>>>>> thing (the ~ of).
>>>>
>>>>> And I believe that there is no simple synonym to convey that meaning,
>>>>> and that it should therefore not be banned from academic usage when
>>>>> used in that sense, because it is not intrinsically pejorative, as it
>>>>> tends to be when used in the other sense.
>>>> ..
>>>>
>>>> Well, I'd think academics should be able to handle that.  But
>>>> "the veneration of St. George" seems to be a possibility.
>>>>
>>>> I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
>>>> "cult of personality".
>>
>>> I have opined here before that whoever thus translated Russian культа
>>> личности made two bad choices, since both "cult" and "personality" have
>>>
>>> more prominent senses in English which are inappropriate.
>>> "Worship/veneration of an individual" would have been more accurate,
>>> but, I guess, less snappy.
>>
>> The phrase already existed in English, according to the OED.  I wonder
>> whether the Russian phrase was translated from English.
>>
>> cult of personality: a collective obsession with, or intense,
>> excessive, or uncritical admiration for, a particular public figure,
>> esp. a political leader; the instigation of such an obsession; cf.
>> personality cult n.
>>
>> Frequently associated with totalitarian leaders (esp. Stalin) and
>> their idealized portrayal by means of propaganda, manipulation of
>> the mass media, etc.
>>
>> 1898
>> The Oriental voyage of his spectacular Majesty, William II.,
>> gives the German newspapers plenty of opportunity for speculation,
>> and incidentally offers many examples of the peculiar cult of
>> personality indulged in by the German people.
>> New York Times 6 November 19/7
>>
>> 1920
>> In politics, as in the army and boxing, the cult of personality
>> is in the ascendant.
>> Observer 26 September 12/2
>>
>> 1933
>> Hanfstaengl..coached [Hitler]..in the introduction of
>> high-pressure American advertising methods. The cult of
>> personality until then was almost unknown in German political
>> life.
>> Billings (Montana) Gazette 5 March 15/3
>>
>> 1953
>> Such incorrect methods of work..‘often result in one-sided,
>> poorly-devised, and..erroneous decisions,’ the editorial [in
>> the official journal of the Cominform] added. It branded the
>> cult of personality as ‘harmful and intolerable’ and contrary
>> to ‘Marx Leninism’.
>> Times 8 September 6/6
>>
>
> Well, well. I had always assumed it was a Russian coinage in
> retrospective critique of Stalin, perhaps from Khrushchev's famous 1956
> speech. I guess that just reflects the period when I first heard it.
>
>
> OED doesn't suggest a remoter origin, and the 1898 quote looks as if
> it's already a known concept. Could be from some 19th century (German?)
> political philosopher.
>
> I still think the prevalent senses of the two words create a somewhat
> distorted understanding of the phrase among English speakers.

Ha! How's this?

"The term "cult of personality" likely appeared in English around
1800–1850, along with the French and German versions of the term. It
initially had no political connotations, but was instead closely related
to the Romanticist "cult of genius". The first known political use of
the phrase appeared in a letter from Karl Marx to German political
worker Wilhelm Blos dated to November 10, 1877:

Neither of us cares a straw of popularity. Let me cite one proof of
this: such was my aversion to the personality cult [orig.
Personenkultus] that at the time of the International, when plagued by
numerous moves ... to accord me public honor, I never allowed one of
these to enter the domain of publicity ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

Their reference is to K.Heller & J.Plamper, Personality Cults in
Stalinism/Personenkulte im Stalinismus (Göttingen, 2004).

Ross Clark wrote:

> On 1/06/2024 11:22 p.m., Ross Clark wrote:
>> On 1/06/2024 10:31 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
>>> Ross Clark wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/06/2024 1:54 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:

[academics disapproving of "cult" in any sense because of its
derogatory meaning]

>>>>> I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
>>>>> "cult of personality".
>>>
>>>> I have opined here before that whoever thus translated Russian культа
>>>> личности made two bad choices, since both "cult" and "personality" have
>>>>
>>>> more prominent senses in English which are inappropriate.
>>>> "Worship/veneration of an individual" would have been more accurate,
>>>> but, I guess, less snappy.
>>>
>>> The phrase already existed in English, according to the OED.  I wonder
>>> whether the Russian phrase was translated from English.
>>>
>>> cult of personality: a collective obsession with, or intense,
>>> excessive, or uncritical admiration for, a particular public figure,
>>> esp. a political leader; the instigation of such an obsession; cf.
>>> personality cult n.
>>>
>>> Frequently associated with totalitarian leaders (esp. Stalin) and
>>> their idealized portrayal by means of propaganda, manipulation of
>>> the mass media, etc.
>>>
>>> 1898
>>> The Oriental voyage of his spectacular Majesty, William II.,
>>> gives the German newspapers plenty of opportunity for speculation,
>>> and incidentally offers many examples of the peculiar cult of
>>> personality indulged in by the German people.
>>> New York Times 6 November 19/7
>>>
>>> 1920
>>> In politics, as in the army and boxing, the cult of personality
>>> is in the ascendant.
>>> Observer 26 September 12/2
>>>
>>> 1933
>>> Hanfstaengl..coached [Hitler]..in the introduction of
>>> high-pressure American advertising methods. The cult of
>>> personality until then was almost unknown in German political
>>> life.
>>> Billings (Montana) Gazette 5 March 15/3
>>>
>>> 1953
>>> Such incorrect methods of work..‘often result in one-sided,
>>> poorly-devised, and..erroneous decisions,’ the editorial [in
>>> the official journal of the Cominform] added. It branded the
>>> cult of personality as ‘harmful and intolerable’ and contrary
>>> to ‘Marx Leninism’.
>>> Times 8 September 6/6
>>>
>>
>> Well, well. I had always assumed it was a Russian coinage in
>> retrospective critique of Stalin, perhaps from Khrushchev's famous 1956
>>
>> speech. I guess that just reflects the period when I first heard it.
>>
>>
>> OED doesn't suggest a remoter origin, and the 1898 quote looks as if
>> it's already a known concept. Could be from some 19th century (German?)
>>
>> political philosopher.

I wondered too and searched Google Books for "culte de personalité",
but I didn't know what it would be in German and didn't think to
look it up.

>> I still think the prevalent senses of the two words create a somewhat
>> distorted understanding of the phrase among English speakers.

> Ha! How's this?

> "The term "cult of personality" likely appeared in English around
> 1800–1850, along with the French and German versions of the term. It
> initially had no political connotations, but was instead closely
> related
> to the Romanticist "cult of genius". The first known political use of
> the phrase appeared in a letter from Karl Marx to German political
> worker Wilhelm Blos dated to November 10, 1877:

> Neither of us cares a straw of popularity. Let me cite one proof
> of
>
> this: such was my aversion to the personality cult [orig.
> Personenkultus] that at the time of the International, when plagued by
> numerous moves ... to accord me public honor, I never allowed one of
> these to enter the domain of publicity ...

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

> Their reference is to K.Heller & J.Plamper, Personality Cults in
> Stalinism/Personenkulte im Stalinismus (Göttingen, 2004).

Marx, of all people. That clarifies a lot, though I wonder what makes
it likely that the term appeared in English before 1850.

Looking up "Personenkultus" at GB also gives "Personenkult", and I see
a few hits in the 1870s, a sudden trickle in 1888--and an isolated
example that from 1814 (really), referring to the theater.

--
Jerry Friedman

Steve Hayes:

> "A personality veneration"?

Why `personality' instead of `(a) person'?

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

On 2024-06-01, Ross Clark wrote:

> On 1/06/2024 11:22 p.m., Ross Clark wrote:
>> On 1/06/2024 10:31 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
>>> Ross Clark wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/06/2024 1:54 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
>>>>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 01:18:02 +0300, Anton Shepelev
>>>>>> <anton.txt@gmail.moc> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Hayes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A cult is something that people *do*.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A cult is not something that people or a group of people
>>>>>>>> *are*.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no problem with either meaning, and consider the
>>>>>>> second one as bearing negative connotations in colluquial
>>>>>>> speech.  Britannica online concurs:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   usually small group devoted to a person, idea, or
>>>>>>>   philosophy.  The term /cult/ is often applied to a
>>>>>>>   religious movement that exists in some degree of
>>>>>>>   tension with the dominant religious or cultural
>>>>>>>   inclination of a society.  In recent years the word
>>>>>>>   cult has been most commonly used as a pejorative term
>>>>>>>   for a religious group that falls outside the
>>>>>>>   mainstream and, by implication, engages in
>>>>>>>   questionable activities. Many new religions are
>>>>>>>   controversially labeled as cults.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> as do many dictionaries.  I also believe this is an old
>>>>>>> meaning used by good writers.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It is because of that usage that the academics want to ban all use of
>>>>>> the term.
>>>>>
>>>>>> But my Concise Oxford Dictionary has
>>>>>
>>>>>> cult n. System of religious worship; devotion, homage to person or
>>>>>> thing (the ~ of).
>>>>>
>>>>>> And I believe that there is no simple synonym to convey that meaning,
>>>>>> and that it should therefore not be banned from academic usage when
>>>>>> used in that sense, because it is not intrinsically pejorative, as it
>>>>>> tends to be when used in the other sense.
>>>>> ..
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I'd think academics should be able to handle that.  But
>>>>> "the veneration of St. George" seems to be a possibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
>>>>> "cult of personality".
>>>
>>>> I have opined here before that whoever thus translated Russian культа
>>>> личности made two bad choices, since both "cult" and "personality" have
>>>>
>>>> more prominent senses in English which are inappropriate.
>>>> "Worship/veneration of an individual" would have been more accurate,
>>>> but, I guess, less snappy.
>>>
>>> The phrase already existed in English, according to the OED.  I wonder
>>> whether the Russian phrase was translated from English.
>>>
>>> cult of personality: a collective obsession with, or intense,
>>> excessive, or uncritical admiration for, a particular public figure,
>>> esp. a political leader; the instigation of such an obsession; cf.
>>> personality cult n.
>>>
>>> Frequently associated with totalitarian leaders (esp. Stalin) and
>>> their idealized portrayal by means of propaganda, manipulation of
>>> the mass media, etc.
>>>
>>> 1898
>>> The Oriental voyage of his spectacular Majesty, William II.,
>>> gives the German newspapers plenty of opportunity for speculation,
>>> and incidentally offers many examples of the peculiar cult of
>>> personality indulged in by the German people.
>>> New York Times 6 November 19/7
>>>
>>> 1920
>>> In politics, as in the army and boxing, the cult of personality
>>> is in the ascendant.
>>> Observer 26 September 12/2
>>>
>>> 1933
>>> Hanfstaengl..coached [Hitler]..in the introduction of
>>> high-pressure American advertising methods. The cult of
>>> personality until then was almost unknown in German political
>>> life.
>>> Billings (Montana) Gazette 5 March 15/3
>>>
>>> 1953
>>> Such incorrect methods of work..‘often result in one-sided,
>>> poorly-devised, and..erroneous decisions,’ the editorial [in
>>> the official journal of the Cominform] added. It branded the
>>> cult of personality as ‘harmful and intolerable’ and contrary
>>> to ‘Marx Leninism’.
>>> Times 8 September 6/6
>>>
>>
>> Well, well. I had always assumed it was a Russian coinage in
>> retrospective critique of Stalin, perhaps from Khrushchev's famous 1956
>> speech. I guess that just reflects the period when I first heard it.
>>
>>
>> OED doesn't suggest a remoter origin, and the 1898 quote looks as if
>> it's already a known concept. Could be from some 19th century (German?)
>> political philosopher.
>>
>> I still think the prevalent senses of the two words create a somewhat
>> distorted understanding of the phrase among English speakers.
>
> Ha! How's this?
>
> "The term "cult of personality" likely appeared in English around
> 1800–1850, along with the French and German versions of the term. It
> initially had no political connotations, but was instead closely related
> to the Romanticist "cult of genius". The first known political use of
> the phrase appeared in a letter from Karl Marx to German political
> worker Wilhelm Blos dated to November 10, 1877:
>
> Neither of us cares a straw of popularity. Let me cite one proof of
> this: such was my aversion to the personality cult [orig.
> Personenkultus] that at the time of the International, when plagued by
> numerous moves ... to accord me public honor, I never allowed one of
> these to enter the domain of publicity ...
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality
>
> Their reference is to K.Heller & J.Plamper, Personality Cults in
> Stalinism/Personenkulte im Stalinismus (Göttingen, 2004).

Interesting! I did not know the term was that old.

--
Some say the world will end in fire; some say in segfaults.
<https://xkcd.com/312/>

On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 12:39:35 +0300, Anton Shepelev
<anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:

>Steve Hayes:
>
>> "A personality veneration"?
>
>Why `personality' instead of `(a) person'?

Interesting question.

For "personality" my Concise Oxford Dictionary gives simply "personal
estate", which puts it alongside "temporality" and "spirituality".

In the days of Christendom, prince bishops, when they took office,
were invested with the temporalities and spiritualities of their
office. Presumably whatever they owned part from those was their
personality.

An example of that that I am aware of was the Bishop of Durham, who
was also the Count Palatine. In response to the Reform Act in the
1830s he donated his temporalities to the foundation of the University
of Durham, and Durham Casle, which had been the bishop's residence,
became University College. The bishop took himself and his
spiritualities off to Auckland, which thereafter became known as
Bishop Auckland. Preumably he disposed of his personalities by will
before he died.

But having said all that, I went to look up "personage" and saw that I
had misread it -- trying to read a dictionary while still wearing my
computer glasses -- all the above applies to personalty, not
personality.

Of personality it says:

"being a person; personal existence or identity"

But it only gives it as a noun, not an adjective.

So why is it a personality cult (adulation, veneration, dedicated
following etc) rather than a personal cult?

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

jerryfriedman wrote:

> Ross Clark wrote:

>> On 1/06/2024 11:22 p.m., Ross Clark wrote:
>>> On 1/06/2024 10:31 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
>>>> Ross Clark wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/06/2024 1:54 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:

> [academics disapproving of "cult" in any sense because of its
> derogatory meaning]

>>>>>> I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
>>>>>> "cult of personality".
>>>>
>>>>> I have opined here before that whoever thus translated Russian культа
>>>>> личности made two bad choices, since both "cult" and "personality" have
>>>>>
>>>>> more prominent senses in English which are inappropriate.
>>>>> "Worship/veneration of an individual" would have been more accurate,
>>>>> but, I guess, less snappy.
>>>>
>>>> The phrase already existed in English, according to the OED.  I wonder
>>>> whether the Russian phrase was translated from English.
>>>>
>>>> cult of personality: a collective obsession with, or intense,
>>>> excessive, or uncritical admiration for, a particular public figure,
>>>> esp. a political leader; the instigation of such an obsession; cf.
>>>> personality cult n.
>>>>
>>>> Frequently associated with totalitarian leaders (esp. Stalin) and
>>>> their idealized portrayal by means of propaganda, manipulation of
>>>> the mass media, etc.
>>>>
>>>> 1898
>>>> The Oriental voyage of his spectacular Majesty, William II.,
>>>> gives the German newspapers plenty of opportunity for speculation,
>>>> and incidentally offers many examples of the peculiar cult of
>>>> personality indulged in by the German people.
>>>> New York Times 6 November 19/7
>>>>
>>>> 1920
>>>> In politics, as in the army and boxing, the cult of personality
>>>> is in the ascendant.
>>>> Observer 26 September 12/2
>>>>
>>>> 1933
>>>> Hanfstaengl..coached [Hitler]..in the introduction of
>>>> high-pressure American advertising methods. The cult of
>>>> personality until then was almost unknown in German political
>>>> life.
>>>> Billings (Montana) Gazette 5 March 15/3
>>>>
>>>> 1953
>>>> Such incorrect methods of work..‘often result in one-sided,
>>>> poorly-devised, and..erroneous decisions,’ the editorial [in
>>>> the official journal of the Cominform] added. It branded the
>>>> cult of personality as ‘harmful and intolerable’ and contrary
>>>> to ‘Marx Leninism’.
>>>> Times 8 September 6/6
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, well. I had always assumed it was a Russian coinage in
>>> retrospective critique of Stalin, perhaps from Khrushchev's famous 1956
>>>
>>> speech. I guess that just reflects the period when I first heard it.
>>>
>>>
>>> OED doesn't suggest a remoter origin, and the 1898 quote looks as if
>>> it's already a known concept. Could be from some 19th century (German?)
>>>
>>> political philosopher.

> I wondered too and searched Google Books for "culte de personalité",
> but I didn't know what it would be in German and didn't think to
> look it up.

Things are complicated here...

>>> I still think the prevalent senses of the two words create a somewhat
>>> distorted understanding of the phrase among English speakers.

>> Ha! How's this?

>> "The term "cult of personality" likely appeared in English around
>> 1800–1850, along with the French and German versions of the term. It
>> initially had no political connotations, but was instead closely
>> related
>> to the Romanticist "cult of genius". The first known political use of
>> the phrase appeared in a letter from Karl Marx to German political
>> worker Wilhelm Blos dated to November 10, 1877:

>> Neither of us cares a straw of popularity. Let me cite one proof
>> of
>>
>> this: such was my aversion to the personality cult [orig.
>> Personenkultus] that at the time of the International, when plagued by
>> numerous moves ... to accord me public honor, I never allowed one of
>> these to enter the domain of publicity ...

>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

>> Their reference is to K.Heller & J.Plamper, Personality Cults in
>> Stalinism/Personenkulte im Stalinismus (Göttingen, 2004).

> Marx, of all people. That clarifies a lot, though I wonder what makes
> it likely that the term appeared in English before 1850.

> Looking up "Personenkultus" at GB also gives "Personenkult", and I see
> a few hits in the 1870s, a sudden trickle in 1888--and an isolated
> example that from 1814 (really), referring to the theater.

See also
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kultus#Noun .

Regards, ULF