On 2024-10-24 15:29, Tom Elam wrote:
> On 10/15/2024 12:21 PM, Alan wrote:
>> On 2024-10-15 08:05, Tom Elam wrote:
>>> On 10/11/2024 7:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>> On 10/11/24 1:59 AM, Alan wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-10-10 20:17, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/10/2024 5:14 PM, -hh wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/10/24 4:30 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/10/2024 12:44 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-10-10 03:25, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/9/2024 11:13 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-10-09 19:28, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/4/2024 7:20 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-10-02 11:29, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...ON THE TRACK:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At the SCCA National Runoffs this year at Road America in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fastest qualifier so far IS an FF Honda at 2:22.552.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But second fastest is a FF Ford just .181 behind at 2:22.733.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_files/scca/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> downloads/000/073/365/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FF%20Runoffs2024%20Qual%202%20Provisional.pdf>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And that's not even remotely a new Formula F chassis! The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Swift DB6 chassis dates from 1991...that's 43 years ago!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why is the field mostly Hondas?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because (as I've explained before) time and money spent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maintaining a Formula F Kent in top shape can be spent on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more profitable things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, gee, what do you know?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The "uncompetitive" Kent...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...won the 2024 SCCA National Runoffs in Formula F.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Who'd have thought it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Really?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_files/scca/
>>>>>>>>>>>> downloads/000/073/541/ FF%20Runoffs2024%20Race%20Official.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The # 5 car, the Kent, finished 8th in the official results,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1st in Provisional Results
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Position changed per: Car 5 - Moved behind #81 per SOM - GCR
>>>>>>>>>>>> 6.11.1.D,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Appendix P.5. Must have cheated to get moved down that far.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And the 5 car was the only Kent in the race.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What's extra hilarious is that they literally listed the rule
>>>>>>>>>>> infraction involved...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ...but you just went with, "must have cheated".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It was a passing infraction, I looked it up. That is cheating.
>>>>>>>>>> You said he "won the 2024 SCCA National Runoffs in Formula F"
>>>>>>>>>> the when confronted with the truth changed it to "could have
>>>>>>>>>> won", Liarboy. So typical of you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your implication was clearly that the only reason he could have
>>>>>>>>> been leading the race was that he cheated. The SCCA ruled that
>>>>>>>>> he moved to aggressively to defend his position, and having
>>>>>>>>> seen the video, that's certainly true. But your claim has
>>>>>>>>> always been that the Ford can't be competitive with the Honda
>>>>>>>>> and there's no way that can be true if a Ford can be in the
>>>>>>>>> lead on the last lap of the race.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And never said "could have won" anywhere, Liarboy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You flat out lied when you said "The "uncompetitive" Kent
>>>>>>>> won the 2024 SCCA National Runoffs in Formula F"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you had said that a single Kent was competitive in this one
>>>>>>>> race I would have agreed. But no, you said the Kent WON the
>>>>>>>> race. That is not true. He broke a rule by aggressively blocking
>>>>>>>> another driver. Had he not done so he might have not placed
>>>>>>>> first in the provisional standings. In other words, he cheated
>>>>>>>> the other driver out of an opportunity to pass and was
>>>>>>>> appropriately penalized. Had he followed the rules he very
>>>>>>>> likely would not have even won a provisional first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Such rule infractions often have a big old dose of grey.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, in a larger sense, is the Kent competitive? No. There have
>>>>>>>> been VERY few Kents entered in the Runoffs for many years. If
>>>>>>>> they were competitive on performance and cost there would be
>>>>>>>> more. If the Kent was a better engine overall on performance and
>>>>>>>> cost the Kent would dominate. Even you agree. After all you
>>>>>>>> bought a Honda- powered car, Liarboy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter if its one team or a
>>>>>>> dozen teams that get to the final rounds:  it is as if you're
>>>>>>> trying to claim that the baseball team that loses in the World
>>>>>>> Series must "suck" because they didn't win in the final round.
>>>>>>> Sorry, but they had to have beaten a lot of other teams before
>>>>>>> they got to the final rounds.  Point is that the mere presence of
>>>>>>> a Kent in the finals indicates that the Formula organizers have
>>>>>>> done a good job in balancing their index of performance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You stated "Because (as I've explained before) time and money spent
>>>>>>>> maintaining a Formula F Kent in top shape can be spent on more
>>>>>>>> profitable things." You admit here that the Kent is not
>>>>>>>> competitive when considering the overall metrics. Why spend the
>>>>>>>> money on the Kent when it can't go out and beat the Honda on a
>>>>>>>> consistent basis? YOU said that. THAT is why the Kent is so
>>>>>>>> scarce in the Runoffs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, that's trying to incorrectly use a statistical bias to make
>>>>>>> an invalid claim:  that a Kent requires higher maintenance
>>>>>>> explains why fewer teams run that combination, not that it isn't
>>>>>>> just as good of a performer on the track.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a competitive field which has weeded out the lower performing
>>>>>>> ones in qualifying rounds, if 90% of the teams have a red car (eg
>>>>>>> Honda) and the outcome is purely random chance, reversion to the
>>>>>>> means means that there's a 90% probability that the winning car
>>>>>>> is going to be red.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Same principle applies here:  if Kents really are objectively
>>>>>>> inferior performers on the track, then the above 'random chance'
>>>>>>> doesn't apply and they wouldn't have placed high enough in the
>>>>>>> prior elimination rounds to even appear as 5% of the field in the
>>>>>>> finals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OTOH, when they are objectively even on the track, then their
>>>>>>> representation in the final playoff field should be similar to
>>>>>>> what % of the total population of competitive cars are fielded,
>>>>>>> no matter if that's 10%, 50% or 90%.  Ditto for Honda.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In an even larger sense you show in this instance that you are
>>>>>>>> more than willing to bend facts to make yourself look good.
>>>>>>>> Major traits of a narcissistic hypocrite. Of course, another
>>>>>>>> trait of the narcissistic hypocrite is that you can never admit
>>>>>>>> being wrong, or that the other person who disagrees with you is
>>>>>>>> right. Such people are also totally blind to their disorder.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Speaking of disorders, the above is pretty basic statistics when
>>>>>>> examining factors within populations:  why did you miss it so badly?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for validating all my arguments. There are so few Kents in
>>>>>> the runoffs because the Kent-powered car are either so inferior
>>>>>> that there are few left or if their are many they don't perform
>>>>>> well enough to make the Runoffs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Way to misunderstand every argument he made, Asshole.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unsurprising that Tommy believed I was affirming him, not debunking
>>>> him.
>>>>
>>>>> Are you sure you have a Ph.D.?
>>>>
>>>> If he did, it wasn't in anything STEM which required mathematics.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -hh
>>>>
>>>
>>> HH, I do know math and stats. The fact that there are so few Kent
>>> cars that make the Runoffs and that in general they finish poorly
>>> says they are not competitive at this level. There are statistical
>>> outliers in the last 2 years. Results:
>>
>> You're assuming that correlation is causation, Liarboy.
>>
>>>
>>> 2024 - 1 car finished 8th, 13 cars running
>>> 2023 - 1 Kent (won the race), 8 cars running
>>> 2022 - 2 Kents finished 3rd and 12th, 13 cars running
>>> 2021 - 4 Kents finished 16th, 18th, 19th and 21st, 22 cars running
>>> 2020 - 3 Kents finished 11th, 12th and 14th, 14 cars running
>>> 2019 - 4 Kents finished 3rd, 9th and 13th, 14 cars running
>>> 2018 - 3 Kents finished 14th, 17th, and 22nd, 22 cars running
>>> 2017 - 9 Kents finished 10th, 20th, 23rd. The other 6 were DNF, 26 of
>>> 36 cars were running at the finish
>>>
>>>
>>> Why so few Kents? Two possible explanations:
>>>
>>> 1. There are few Kents relative to Hondas in the population, or
>>> 2. The population of Kents is sufficient to support more entries, but
>>> few can qualify.
>>
>> 3. The kinds of people who GO to the Runoffs can afford to convert to
>> Honda.
>>
>>>
>>> If there are few Kents in the population or the Kents are not good
>>> enough to qualify does not matter. In any event, Kent participation
>>> and results says the engine is not competitive at this level. But the
>>> outliers?
>>>
>>> Why the outliers? As Alan has stated, if you spend enough money and
>>> effort tuning the Kent it can run with the de-rated Hondas. But that
>>> makes those owners that do spend lavishly unrepresentative of the
>>> general Kent owner population. Which is why we see the typical Kent
>>> finishs well off the podium.
>>>
>>> I stand corrected on a statement I made about the SCCA F1600 race
>>> series. Honda engines are allowed. Actually the Honda dominates.
>>> Established in 2011, a Kent won the first year title. The 2012-2023
>>> winners all drove Honda-powered cars.
>>
>> Look at that:
>>
>> Opening your yap when you lacked anything resembling a clue...
>>
>> ...again.
>>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1600_Championship_Series
>>>
>>> If you look at the series' track records they are dominated by Honda-
>>> powered cars.
>>>
>>> https://www.racefrp.com/track-records
>>>
>>> Now, explain all that please.
>> Hondas offer advantages ASIDE from speed ON THE TRACK.
>
> Alan, you have stated that to be competitive with a Kent engine requires
> an expert engine builder/tuner and that is expensive. Now you are saying
> the Honda, which you bought because it requires LESS maintenance, is
> more expensive.

Where did I say that the Honda was more expensive, you lying little shit?