On 10/15/24 12:21 PM, Alan wrote:
> On 2024-10-15 08:05, Tom Elam wrote:
>> On 10/11/2024 7:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>>> On 10/11/24 1:59 AM, Alan wrote:
>>>> On 2024-10-10 20:17, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/2024 5:14 PM, -hh wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/10/24 4:30 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/10/2024 12:44 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-10-10 03:25, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 10/9/2024 11:13 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-10-09 19:28, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/4/2024 7:20 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-10-02 11:29, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...ON THE TRACK:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> At the SCCA National Runoffs this year at Road America in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fastest qualifier so far IS an FF Honda at 2:22.552.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But second fastest is a FF Ford just .181 behind at 2:22.733.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_files/scca/
>>>>>>>>>>>>> downloads/000/073/365/
>>>>>>>>>>>>> FF%20Runoffs2024%20Qual%202%20Provisional.pdf>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And that's not even remotely a new Formula F chassis! The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Swift DB6 chassis dates from 1991...that's 43 years ago!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why is the field mostly Hondas?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because (as I've explained before) time and money spent
>>>>>>>>>>>>> maintaining a Formula F Kent in top shape can be spent on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more profitable things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And, gee, what do you know?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The "uncompetitive" Kent...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ...won the 2024 SCCA National Runoffs in Formula F.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Who'd have thought it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Really?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_files/scca/
>>>>>>>>>>> downloads/000/073/541/ FF%20Runoffs2024%20Race%20Official.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The # 5 car, the Kent, finished 8th in the official results,
>>>>>>>>>>> 1st in Provisional Results
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Position changed per: Car 5 - Moved behind #81 per SOM - GCR
>>>>>>>>>>> 6.11.1.D,
>>>>>>>>>>> Appendix P.5. Must have cheated to get moved down that far.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And the 5 car was the only Kent in the race.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What's extra hilarious is that they literally listed the rule
>>>>>>>>>> infraction involved...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ...but you just went with, "must have cheated".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was a passing infraction, I looked it up. That is cheating.
>>>>>>>>> You said he "won the 2024 SCCA National Runoffs in Formula F"
>>>>>>>>> the when confronted with the truth changed it to "could have
>>>>>>>>> won", Liarboy. So typical of you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your implication was clearly that the only reason he could have
>>>>>>>> been leading the race was that he cheated. The SCCA ruled that
>>>>>>>> he moved to aggressively to defend his position, and having seen
>>>>>>>> the video, that's certainly true. But your claim has always been
>>>>>>>> that the Ford can't be competitive with the Honda and there's no
>>>>>>>> way that can be true if a Ford can be in the lead on the last
>>>>>>>> lap of the race.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And never said "could have won" anywhere, Liarboy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You flat out lied when you said "The "uncompetitive" Kent
>>>>>>> won the 2024 SCCA National Runoffs in Formula F"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you had said that a single Kent was competitive in this one
>>>>>>> race I would have agreed. But no, you said the Kent WON the race.
>>>>>>> That is not true. He broke a rule by aggressively blocking
>>>>>>> another driver. Had he not done so he might have not placed first
>>>>>>> in the provisional standings. In other words, he cheated the
>>>>>>> other driver out of an opportunity to pass and was appropriately
>>>>>>> penalized. Had he followed the rules he very likely would not
>>>>>>> have even won a provisional first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Such rule infractions often have a big old dose of grey.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, in a larger sense, is the Kent competitive? No. There have
>>>>>>> been VERY few Kents entered in the Runoffs for many years. If
>>>>>>> they were competitive on performance and cost there would be
>>>>>>> more. If the Kent was a better engine overall on performance and
>>>>>>> cost the Kent would dominate. Even you agree. After all you
>>>>>>> bought a Honda- powered car, Liarboy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter if its one team or a dozen
>>>>>> teams that get to the final rounds:  it is as if you're trying to
>>>>>> claim that the baseball team that loses in the World Series must
>>>>>> "suck" because they didn't win in the final round.  Sorry, but
>>>>>> they had to have beaten a lot of other teams before they got to
>>>>>> the final rounds.  Point is that the mere presence of a Kent in
>>>>>> the finals indicates that the Formula organizers have done a good
>>>>>> job in balancing their index of performance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You stated "Because (as I've explained before) time and money spent
>>>>>>> maintaining a Formula F Kent in top shape can be spent on more
>>>>>>> profitable things." You admit here that the Kent is not
>>>>>>> competitive when considering the overall metrics. Why spend the
>>>>>>> money on the Kent when it can't go out and beat the Honda on a
>>>>>>> consistent basis? YOU said that. THAT is why the Kent is so
>>>>>>> scarce in the Runoffs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, that's trying to incorrectly use a statistical bias to make an
>>>>>> invalid claim:  that a Kent requires higher maintenance explains
>>>>>> why fewer teams run that combination, not that it isn't just as
>>>>>> good of a performer on the track.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a competitive field which has weeded out the lower performing
>>>>>> ones in qualifying rounds, if 90% of the teams have a red car (eg
>>>>>> Honda) and the outcome is purely random chance, reversion to the
>>>>>> means means that there's a 90% probability that the winning car is
>>>>>> going to be red.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Same principle applies here:  if Kents really are objectively
>>>>>> inferior performers on the track, then the above 'random chance'
>>>>>> doesn't apply and they wouldn't have placed high enough in the
>>>>>> prior elimination rounds to even appear as 5% of the field in the
>>>>>> finals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OTOH, when they are objectively even on the track, then their
>>>>>> representation in the final playoff field should be similar to
>>>>>> what % of the total population of competitive cars are fielded, no
>>>>>> matter if that's 10%, 50% or 90%.  Ditto for Honda.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In an even larger sense you show in this instance that you are
>>>>>>> more than willing to bend facts to make yourself look good. Major
>>>>>>> traits of a narcissistic hypocrite. Of course, another trait of
>>>>>>> the narcissistic hypocrite is that you can never admit being
>>>>>>> wrong, or that the other person who disagrees with you is right.
>>>>>>> Such people are also totally blind to their disorder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Speaking of disorders, the above is pretty basic statistics when
>>>>>> examining factors within populations:  why did you miss it so badly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for validating all my arguments. There are so few Kents in
>>>>> the runoffs because the Kent-powered car are either so inferior
>>>>> that there are few left or if their are many they don't perform
>>>>> well enough to make the Runoffs.
>>>>
>>>> Way to misunderstand every argument he made, Asshole.
>>>
>>>
>>> Unsurprising that Tommy believed I was affirming him, not debunking him.
>>>
>>>> Are you sure you have a Ph.D.?
>>>
>>> If he did, it wasn't in anything STEM which required mathematics.
>>>
>>>
>>> -hh
>>>
>>
>> HH, I do know math and stats. The fact that there are so few Kent cars
>> that make the Runoffs and that in general they finish poorly says they
>> are not competitive at this level. There are statistical outliers in
>> the last 2 years. Results:
>
> You're assuming that correlation is causation, Liarboy.
>
>>
>> 2024 - 1 car finished 8th, 13 cars running
>> 2023 - 1 Kent (won the race), 8 cars running
>> 2022 - 2 Kents finished 3rd and 12th, 13 cars running
>> 2021 - 4 Kents finished 16th, 18th, 19th and 21st, 22 cars running
>> 2020 - 3 Kents finished 11th, 12th and 14th, 14 cars running
>> 2019 - 4 Kents finished 3rd, 9th and 13th, 14 cars running
>> 2018 - 3 Kents finished 14th, 17th, and 22nd, 22 cars running
>> 2017 - 9 Kents finished 10th, 20th, 23rd. The other 6 were DNF, 26 of
>> 36 cars were running at the finish
>>
>>
>> Why so few Kents? Two possible explanations:
>>
>> 1. There are few Kents relative to Hondas in the population, or
>> 2. The population of Kents is sufficient to support more entries, but
>> few can qualify.
>
> 3. The kinds of people who GO to the Runoffs can afford to convert to
> Honda.
>
>>
>> If there are few Kents in the population or the Kents are not good
>> enough to qualify does not matter. In any event, Kent participation
>> and results says the engine is not competitive at this level. But the
>> outliers?
>>
>> Why the outliers? As Alan has stated, if you spend enough money and
>> effort tuning the Kent it can run with the de-rated Hondas. But that
>> makes those owners that do spend lavishly unrepresentative of the
>> general Kent owner population. Which is why we see the typical Kent
>> finishs well off the podium.
>>
>> I stand corrected on a statement I made about the SCCA F1600 race
>> series. Honda engines are allowed. Actually the Honda dominates.
>> Established in 2011, a Kent won the first year title. The 2012-2023
>> winners all drove Honda-powered cars.
>
> Look at that:
>
> Opening your yap when you lacked anything resembling a clue...
>
> ...again.
>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1600_Championship_Series
>>
>> If you look at the series' track records they are dominated by Honda-
>> powered cars.
>>
>> https://www.racefrp.com/track-records
>>
>> Now, explain all that please.
> Hondas offer advantages ASIDE from speed ON THE TRACK.

Precisely. To summarily oversimplify, Honda has a *logistical* advantage
off the track, not -- as Tommy has claimed -- an advantage on track.

-hh