On 2024-10-15 08:05, Tom Elam wrote:
> On 10/11/2024 7:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>> On 10/11/24 1:59 AM, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2024-10-10 20:17, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2024 5:14 PM, -hh wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/24 4:30 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/10/2024 12:44 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-10-10 03:25, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/9/2024 11:13 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-10-09 19:28, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/4/2024 7:20 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-10-02 11:29, Alan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> ...ON THE TRACK:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> At the SCCA National Runoffs this year at Road America in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fastest qualifier so far IS an FF Honda at 2:22.552.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But second fastest is a FF Ford just .181 behind at 2:22.733.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_files/scca/
>>>>>>>>>>>> downloads/000/073/365/
>>>>>>>>>>>> FF%20Runoffs2024%20Qual%202%20Provisional.pdf>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And that's not even remotely a new Formula F chassis! The
>>>>>>>>>>>> Swift DB6 chassis dates from 1991...that's 43 years ago!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So why is the field mostly Hondas?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Because (as I've explained before) time and money spent
>>>>>>>>>>>> maintaining a Formula F Kent in top shape can be spent on
>>>>>>>>>>>> more profitable things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And, gee, what do you know?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The "uncompetitive" Kent...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ...won the 2024 SCCA National Runoffs in Formula F.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Who'd have thought it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Really?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_files/scca/
>>>>>>>>>> downloads/000/073/541/ FF%20Runoffs2024%20Race%20Official.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The # 5 car, the Kent, finished 8th in the official results,
>>>>>>>>>> 1st in Provisional Results
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Position changed per: Car 5 - Moved behind #81 per SOM - GCR
>>>>>>>>>> 6.11.1.D,
>>>>>>>>>> Appendix P.5. Must have cheated to get moved down that far.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And the 5 car was the only Kent in the race.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What's extra hilarious is that they literally listed the rule
>>>>>>>>> infraction involved...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...but you just went with, "must have cheated".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It was a passing infraction, I looked it up. That is cheating.
>>>>>>>> You said he "won the 2024 SCCA National Runoffs in Formula F"
>>>>>>>> the when confronted with the truth changed it to "could have
>>>>>>>> won", Liarboy. So typical of you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your implication was clearly that the only reason he could have
>>>>>>> been leading the race was that he cheated. The SCCA ruled that he
>>>>>>> moved to aggressively to defend his position, and having seen the
>>>>>>> video, that's certainly true. But your claim has always been that
>>>>>>> the Ford can't be competitive with the Honda and there's no way
>>>>>>> that can be true if a Ford can be in the lead on the last lap of
>>>>>>> the race.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And never said "could have won" anywhere, Liarboy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You flat out lied when you said "The "uncompetitive" Kent
>>>>>> won the 2024 SCCA National Runoffs in Formula F"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you had said that a single Kent was competitive in this one
>>>>>> race I would have agreed. But no, you said the Kent WON the race.
>>>>>> That is not true. He broke a rule by aggressively blocking another
>>>>>> driver. Had he not done so he might have not placed first in the
>>>>>> provisional standings. In other words, he cheated the other driver
>>>>>> out of an opportunity to pass and was appropriately penalized. Had
>>>>>> he followed the rules he very likely would not have even won a
>>>>>> provisional first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Such rule infractions often have a big old dose of grey.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, in a larger sense, is the Kent competitive? No. There have
>>>>>> been VERY few Kents entered in the Runoffs for many years. If they
>>>>>> were competitive on performance and cost there would be more. If
>>>>>> the Kent was a better engine overall on performance and cost the
>>>>>> Kent would dominate. Even you agree. After all you bought a Honda-
>>>>>> powered car, Liarboy.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter if its one team or a dozen
>>>>> teams that get to the final rounds:  it is as if you're trying to
>>>>> claim that the baseball team that loses in the World Series must
>>>>> "suck" because they didn't win in the final round.  Sorry, but they
>>>>> had to have beaten a lot of other teams before they got to the
>>>>> final rounds.  Point is that the mere presence of a Kent in the
>>>>> finals indicates that the Formula organizers have done a good job
>>>>> in balancing their index of performance.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> You stated "Because (as I've explained before) time and money spent
>>>>>> maintaining a Formula F Kent in top shape can be spent on more
>>>>>> profitable things." You admit here that the Kent is not
>>>>>> competitive when considering the overall metrics. Why spend the
>>>>>> money on the Kent when it can't go out and beat the Honda on a
>>>>>> consistent basis? YOU said that. THAT is why the Kent is so scarce
>>>>>> in the Runoffs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, that's trying to incorrectly use a statistical bias to make an
>>>>> invalid claim:  that a Kent requires higher maintenance explains
>>>>> why fewer teams run that combination, not that it isn't just as
>>>>> good of a performer on the track.
>>>>>
>>>>> In a competitive field which has weeded out the lower performing
>>>>> ones in qualifying rounds, if 90% of the teams have a red car (eg
>>>>> Honda) and the outcome is purely random chance, reversion to the
>>>>> means means that there's a 90% probability that the winning car is
>>>>> going to be red.
>>>>>
>>>>> Same principle applies here:  if Kents really are objectively
>>>>> inferior performers on the track, then the above 'random chance'
>>>>> doesn't apply and they wouldn't have placed high enough in the
>>>>> prior elimination rounds to even appear as 5% of the field in the
>>>>> finals.
>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, when they are objectively even on the track, then their
>>>>> representation in the final playoff field should be similar to what
>>>>> % of the total population of competitive cars are fielded, no
>>>>> matter if that's 10%, 50% or 90%.  Ditto for Honda.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> In an even larger sense you show in this instance that you are
>>>>>> more than willing to bend facts to make yourself look good. Major
>>>>>> traits of a narcissistic hypocrite. Of course, another trait of
>>>>>> the narcissistic hypocrite is that you can never admit being
>>>>>> wrong, or that the other person who disagrees with you is right.
>>>>>> Such people are also totally blind to their disorder.
>>>>>
>>>>> Speaking of disorders, the above is pretty basic statistics when
>>>>> examining factors within populations:  why did you miss it so badly?
>>>>>
>>>>> -hh
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for validating all my arguments. There are so few Kents in
>>>> the runoffs because the Kent-powered car are either so inferior that
>>>> there are few left or if their are many they don't perform well
>>>> enough to make the Runoffs.
>>>
>>> Way to misunderstand every argument he made, Asshole.
>>
>>
>> Unsurprising that Tommy believed I was affirming him, not debunking him.
>>
>>> Are you sure you have a Ph.D.?
>>
>> If he did, it wasn't in anything STEM which required mathematics.
>>
>>
>> -hh
>>
>
> HH, I do know math and stats. The fact that there are so few Kent cars
> that make the Runoffs and that in general they finish poorly says they
> are not competitive at this level. There are statistical outliers in the
> last 2 years. Results:

You're assuming that correlation is causation, Liarboy.

>
> 2024 - 1 car finished 8th, 13 cars running
> 2023 - 1 Kent (won the race), 8 cars running
> 2022 - 2 Kents finished 3rd and 12th, 13 cars running
> 2021 - 4 Kents finished 16th, 18th, 19th and 21st, 22 cars running
> 2020 - 3 Kents finished 11th, 12th and 14th, 14 cars running
> 2019 - 4 Kents finished 3rd, 9th and 13th, 14 cars running
> 2018 - 3 Kents finished 14th, 17th, and 22nd, 22 cars running
> 2017 - 9 Kents finished 10th, 20th, 23rd. The other 6 were DNF, 26 of 36
> cars were running at the finish
>
>
> Why so few Kents? Two possible explanations:
>
> 1. There are few Kents relative to Hondas in the population, or
> 2. The population of Kents is sufficient to support more entries, but
> few can qualify.

3. The kinds of people who GO to the Runoffs can afford to convert to Honda.

>
> If there are few Kents in the population or the Kents are not good
> enough to qualify does not matter. In any event, Kent participation and
> results says the engine is not competitive at this level. But the outliers?
>
> Why the outliers? As Alan has stated, if you spend enough money and
> effort tuning the Kent it can run with the de-rated Hondas. But that
> makes those owners that do spend lavishly unrepresentative of the
> general Kent owner population. Which is why we see the typical Kent
> finishs well off the podium.
>
> I stand corrected on a statement I made about the SCCA F1600 race
> series. Honda engines are allowed. Actually the Honda dominates.
> Established in 2011, a Kent won the first year title. The 2012-2023
> winners all drove Honda-powered cars.

Look at that:

Opening your yap when you lacked anything resembling a clue...

....again.

>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1600_Championship_Series
>
> If you look at the series' track records they are dominated by Honda-
> powered cars.
>
> https://www.racefrp.com/track-records
>
> Now, explain all that please.
Hondas offer advantages ASIDE from speed ON THE TRACK.