On 9/26/24 5:02 PM, chrisv wrote:
> Governor Swill wrote:
>
>> chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> -hh wrote:
>>>
>>>> chrisv wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> -hh wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simply put, they want to be model citizens
>>>>>> because they don't want to go back.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bad logic. We see, all over the world, migrants becoming entitled
>>>>> assholes, and being responsible for vastly disproportionate levels of
>>>>> violent crime.
>>>>
>>>> Nah, those are Nth generation immigrants who’ve become hypocrite MAGA
>>>> Republicans. /s
>>>
>>> No they're not.

Yes, chrisv personally is being an Nth generation immigrant hypocrite.

>>> https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-chancellor-olaf-scholz-migration-policies-deportation-crime-islam-syriia-afghan/#:~:text=While%20foreigners%20make%20up%20about,2023%2C%20according%20to%20government%20statistics.
>>>
>>> https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/germany-violent-crime-climbs-to-historic-highs/
>>>
>>> Here's a study of Sweden.
>>>
>>> "58 per cent of those suspect fortotal crime on reasonable grounds are
>>> migrants. Regarding murder, manslaughter and attempted murder, the
>>> figures are 73 percent, while the proportion of robbery is 70 per
>>> cent. Non-registered migrants are linkedto about 13 per cent of total
>>> crime. Given the fact that this group is small, crime propensity among
>>> non-registered migrants is significant."
>>>
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338563093_Migrants_and_Crime_in_Sweden_in_the_Twenty-First_Century#:~:text=Based%20on%2033%20per%20cent,robbery%20is%2070%20per%20cent.
>>
>> Germany and Sweden are not the US.

Precisely, for the topic was US immigrants, but chrisv is "honestly" /s
trying to change the topic by cherrypicking other countries. Naturally,
he'll also run away from doing an "all countries" analysis.

>> The immigrants they're dealing with are not Christian and
>> they come from places with radically different cultures.

IMO, its more the latter than the former: they come from places which
have had dictators & strongmen, not representative democracies, so
they're not familiar with the difference in social norms that transcend
what religion one happens to be.

> We've plenty of Muslims coming here, too.

"Plenty" as in a raw count, or as a percentage of the total? Because
this is a classical red herring strategy to use one to imply the other:

so just what is the % of Muslims present in our present illegal
borderwall jumping immigrants, chrisv? Got cite?

I'm curious to see what the % is, because many of those US immigrants
are coming from Latin America, which is majority Christian countries:

"The majority of Latin Americans are Christians (90%),[2] mostly Roman
Catholics.[5][1].... According to the detailed Pew Research Center
multi-country survey in 2014, 69% of the Latin American population is
Catholic and 19% is Protestant, rising to 22% in Brazil and over 40% in
much of Central America."

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Latin_America>

>> Our immigrants come here for opportunity. Their immigrants came there to escape
>> war.
>
> What nonsense. The vast majority are "economic" migrants, there and
> here.

Of course, the two factors aren't exclusionary. Europe's emigrants have
largely been fleeing conflict zones in Syria, Afghanistan, Turkey,
Africa, and of course Ukraine:

<https://worldmigrationreport.iom.int/what-we-do/world-migration-report-2024-chapter-3/europe>

> Funny how they almost all are military-aged men, too. Seems that
> women and children would be represented more, if it was "escapte form
> war".

Funny how the ones I personally saw in Copenhagen's train station were
families.

Of course, what chrisv might be referring to was Russia's weaponization
of refugees against bordering countries like Finland:

"During the [20230 autumn, Finland experienced a sudden influx of
hundreds of migrants attempting to cross the border. They came from
distant countries, such as Somalia, Iraq, Yemen and Syria, and were
coaxed by Russian authorities into making the trip to the other side.
The November crisis, widely perceived to be a concentrated effort by the
Kremlin to sow chaos in the NATO state, led to the closure of all
crossing points."

<https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/07/30/after-finland-legalised-migrant-pushbacks-many-fear-a-dangerous-precedent>

"Over the last two months, Arab migrants have overwhelmed border
crossings between Russia and Finland. Much like the scenario at the
Polish-Belarusian border, these migrants are brought to the border in
organized groups, and Russian border guards then provide them with
bicycles....In discussions with migrants and their helpers, The Insider
uncovered that the surge of refugees isn't just happening with knowledge
but is entirely under the control of Russian security forces.
Furthermore, there is confirmation that the crisis at the Finnish border
is orchestrated by the same entities responsible for the crisis on the
Poland-Belarus border."

<https://theins.ru/en/politics/267911>

Tl:DR: they're pawns in Russia's conducting of hybrid warfare.

>> In the US, we have more deliberately integrated our immigrants into our economy,
>> then our society. This has not happened in Europe. Their economies are not as
>> strong as ours and they don't have the jobs we do but do have stronger social
>> safety nets.
>
> We *used to* be able to integrate them. That's failing, with the
> current flood.

What proof do you have that we're unable to integrate them today?
After all, isn't your claim that there's ~20M of them already here?

With US domestic unemployment well under the classical definition of
"Full Employment" of 5%, there's zero legitimate basis to try to claim
that they're stealing jobs from American citizens.

>> Europe has traditionally been a place people migrated out of, not into, and
>> usually to America. We have a tradition if in-migration from Euro-centric
>> cultures. It's the very foundation of our nation. And what are Hispanics from
>> our hemisphere but Euro-centric cultures?
>>
>> Europe has been the source of hundreds of minicultures. There, Swedes and
>> Norwegians are very different and their respective cultures deeply ingrained and
>> embedded. In Europe, calling a Basque French or Spanish might start a
>> fistfight. In America, nobody can tell a Swede from a Pole and we have a vast
>> nation all sharing one culture.
>>
>> These are reasons why they are having trouble integrating their immigrants that
>> we don't have trouble with.
>
> We are having the same troubles.

Where? How much of these claims are being made by luzer CSA holdouts
who don't like anyone who's not white? Because demographically, the
non-white (and non-straight, non-protestant) portions of American
citizens are neither 2% nor recent arrivals, but have been omnipresent
within our society for 100+ years.

FYI, don't forget that historically, the USA's pre-1965 immigration
policy was that the US Southwest border was literally wide open to
Central American foreign nationals crossing the border as they pleased.
And they did so: migrant workers for crops came north to do the work in
the spring and went home to Mexico to overwinter, repeating that cycle
for close to a hundred years.

>>>> And FYI, I can substantiate what I said about relative crime rates. Case in
>>>> point:
>>>>
>>>> “September 12, 2024
>>>> An NIJ-funded study examining data from the Texas Department of Public
>>>> Safety estimated the rate at which undocumented immigrants are arrested
>>>> for committing crimes. The study found that undocumented immigrants are
>>>> arrested at less than half the rate of native-born U.S. citizens for
>>>> violent and
>>>> drug crimes and a quarter the rate of native-born citizens for property
>>>> crimes.[1]”
>>>
>>> So, about as bad as American blacks. Not good. Bad.
>>>
>>>> Naturally, chrisv can’t … and won’t … actually support his claim with
>>>> objective data.
>>>
>>> Did it. Here's something on the Haitians:
>>>
>>> https://youtube.com/shorts/cpVNb3EPacA?si=Kvzk96mMUWHiDZZr
>
>> This is not objective data. This is a bigot ranting at the local council.
>
> Classic. Anyone who complains is a "bigot".

Where's the evidence that he isn't a bigot? Because you're trying to
dodge addressing Swill's point that he made accusations which lacked
substantiation.

>> Nobody is more at the forefront of the illegal migration issue than Texas, yet
>> even Texas admits that crime is committed BY FAR more by native born than by
>> immigrants.
>
> Cite, please.
>

A fair point: chrisv has requested a substantiating citation.

FYI, I happened to find this in one quick search:

<https://www.dps.texas.gov/section/crime-records/texas-criminal-illegal-noncitizen-data>

And something to note in it is the very low conviction rate from
arrests; call it roughly just one third (1/3rd).

The ramifications are that when better data is cited, we should note if
it is based on arrests vs actual convictions, because we know that there
are systematic enforcement biases, such as has already been commented
before in COLA such as the "Driving While Black" form of harassment.

-hh