To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.

Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel. Given it
was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the train/Metro and a
lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us as we arrived several days
before the Viking tour started.

Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other spots,
and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are not in the best
physical shape and that limited our options. We traveled by Metro, Uber,
taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by the Notre Dame crypt, Montmarte
and Musee D'Orsay. The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain
and poor visibility, but at that point we had no other options for
another day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets closed
and the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and blocked off.

Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery we
arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board, visited some
Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A WWII buff, I was
amazed the the Allies ever made it across the part of Moselle valley we
saw.

Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises they
are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a "technical
issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and the food and crew
service was very good, but not great. We also had a few tour guides that
did not speak great English. My wife had to assist one with translating
the excellent French of a local vineyard owner.

On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an unplanned
stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues for the schedule.

Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was very well
done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured that city center for
a day and a half by tram with a lake boat ride thrown in, and had a
great meal on the last evening. Jolly good fun.

Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west of the
lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for our dinner the
tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was announced that there had
been an accident ahead involving a tram and car. Line 4 was being
delayed and diverted. Almost all the passengers left the tram. Two young
locals offered to show us how to get to our destination. We followed
their instructions and arrived via a different route with minimal delay.
Could have figured that out ourselves but their assistance was very helpful.

Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience the 787
for the first time too.

Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via rental
car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we have not seen.
And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not an issue for them.

On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.

That happens. On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both caught
some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was unpleasant.

> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel. Given it
> was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the train/Metro and a
> lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us as we arrived several days
> before the Viking tour started.

Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before considering
your later comment about your travel companion's lower physical shape.

> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other spots,
> and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are not in the best
> physical shape and that limited our options. We traveled by Metro, Uber,
> taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by the Notre Dame crypt, Montmarte
> and Musee D'Orsay.

I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan taking a
lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock face.

> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain
> and poor visibility, but at that point we had no other options for
> another day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets closed
> and the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and blocked off.
>
> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery we
> arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board, visited some
> Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A WWII buff, I was
> amazed the the Allies ever made it across the part of Moselle valley we
> saw.

I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel crossings,
somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall correctly. I
understand that the river looks somewhat different today, as the dam
system for ship navigation has changed over the decades (less current;
possibly slightly higher average water levels too).

> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises they
> are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a "technical
> issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and the food and crew
> service was very good, but not great. We also had a few tour guides that
> did not speak great English. My wife had to assist one with translating
> the excellent French of a local vineyard owner.

I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU, but we've
had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways. One trade-off for
comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY laundry onboard (helps
lighten the bags) but AMA had better wines & wine stewards at dinner.

> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an unplanned
> stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues for the schedule.
>
> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was very well
> done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured that city center for
> a day and a half by tram with a lake boat ride thrown in, and had a
> great meal on the last evening. Jolly good fun.

There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back to in
Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot for Rösti.

> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west of the
> lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for our dinner the
> tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was announced that there had
> been an accident ahead involving a tram and car. Line 4 was being
> delayed and diverted. Almost all the passengers left the tram. Two young
> locals offered to show us how to get to our destination. We followed
> their instructions and arrived via a different route with minimal delay.
> Could have figured that out ourselves but their assistance was very
> helpful.

Things like that happen. Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed such as
heading to the airport for a departure flight. Have had that happen
with a train issue in Belgium.

> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience the 787
> for the first time too.

IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757 version.

> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via rental
> car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we have not seen.
> And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not an issue for them.

Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well: several
different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche, Bordeaux,
Chateaus, etc).

Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of Bourges, as
there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to Notre Dame (but
without crowds), plus an evening walk through its old timbered houses
section is nice: tastefully lit. A single overnight is adequate; figure
it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive due south of Paris.

And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk of age
restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in advance, instead of
getting blindsided at the last minute by it.

-hh

On 8/30/2024 9:38 AM, -hh wrote:
> On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.
>
>
> That happens.  On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both caught
> some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was unpleasant.
>
>
>
>> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel. Given
>> it was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the train/Metro
>> and a lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us as we arrived
>> several days before the Viking tour started.
>
>
> Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before considering
> your later comment about your travel companion's lower physical shape.
>
>
>> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other spots,
>> and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are not in the
>> best physical shape and that limited our options. We traveled by
>> Metro, Uber, taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by the Notre Dame
>> crypt, Montmarte and Musee D'Orsay.
>
>
> I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan taking a
> lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock face.
>
>
>> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain and poor
>> visibility, but at that point we had no other options for another day.
>> The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets closed and the
>> Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and blocked off.
>>
>> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery we
>> arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board, visited some
>> Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A WWII buff, I was
>> amazed the the Allies ever made it across the part of Moselle valley
>> we saw.
>
> I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel crossings,
> somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall correctly.  I
> understand that the river looks somewhat different today, as the dam
> system for ship navigation has changed over the decades (less current;
> possibly slightly higher average water levels too).
>
>
>
>> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
>> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises they
>> are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a "technical
>> issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and the food and crew
>> service was very good, but not great. We also had a few tour guides
>> that did not speak great English. My wife had to assist one with
>> translating the excellent French of a local vineyard owner.
>
> I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU, but we've
> had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways.  One trade-off for
> comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY laundry onboard (helps
> lighten the bags) but AMA had better wines & wine stewards at dinner.
>
>
>> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an unplanned
>> stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues for the schedule.
>>
>> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was very well
>> done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured that city center
>> for a day and a half by tram with a lake boat ride thrown in, and had
>> a great meal on the last evening. Jolly good fun.
>
>
> There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back to in
> Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot for Rösti.
>
>
>> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west of the
>> lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for our dinner the
>> tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was announced that there
>> had been an accident ahead involving a tram and car. Line 4 was being
>> delayed and diverted. Almost all the passengers left the tram. Two
>> young locals offered to show us how to get to our destination. We
>> followed their instructions and arrived via a different route with
>> minimal delay. Could have figured that out ourselves but their
>> assistance was very helpful.
>
>
> Things like that happen.  Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed such as
> heading to the airport for a departure flight.  Have had that happen
> with a train issue in Belgium.
>
>
>> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience the
>> 787 for the first time too.
>
> IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757 version.
>
>
>> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via
>> rental car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we have
>> not seen. And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not an issue
>> for them.
>
>
> Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well: several
> different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche, Bordeaux,
> Chateaus, etc).
>
> Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of Bourges, as
> there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to Notre Dame (but
> without crowds), plus an evening walk through its old timbered houses
> section is nice: tastefully lit.  A single overnight is adequate; figure
> it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive due south of Paris.
>
> And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk of age
> restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in advance, instead of
> getting blindsided at the last minute by it.
>
>
> -hh
>

We ate in that same D'Orsey restaurant. Much nicer than the small snack
bar on the ground floor.

I think the onboard AMA experience is every bit as good as Viking. But
their excursions are better and the cabins a bit larger. My take is that
Viking has become so big that with multiple ships in a port as seemed to
happen frequently they have issues with smaller places some of the AMA
excursions we liked. Example - the small music museum at Rudesheim. I
also remember that the guides were better and we had more free time in port.

I just today watched a YouTube on touring France that may change my mind
a bit about next year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RdNGT1jz8

Taking the TGV to a city then renting the car if you need it could be a
lot of fun, even if a bit more expensive. Thoughts?

We have done 2 weeks in Normandy/Brittany and about the same in Paris
plus 2 trips that took us to the south coast. Time to branch out. Massif
Central, Loire Valley and Alsace are high on my list.

On 8/31/24 5:13 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
> On 8/30/2024 9:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>> On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.
>>
>>
>> That happens.  On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both caught
>> some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was unpleasant.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel. Given
>>> it was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the train/Metro
>>> and a lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us as we arrived
>>> several days before the Viking tour started.
>>
>>
>> Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before
>> considering your later comment about your travel companion's lower
>> physical shape.
>>
>>
>>> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other spots,
>>> and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are not in the
>>> best physical shape and that limited our options. We traveled by
>>> Metro, Uber, taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by the Notre Dame
>>> crypt, Montmarte and Musee D'Orsay.
>>
>>
>> I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan taking a
>> lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock face.
>>
>>
>>> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain and poor
>>> visibility, but at that point we had no other options for another
>>> day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets closed and
>>> the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and blocked off.
>>>
>>> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery we
>>> arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board, visited
>>> some Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A WWII buff, I
>>> was amazed the the Allies ever made it across the part of Moselle
>>> valley we saw.
>>
>> I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel crossings,
>> somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall correctly.  I
>> understand that the river looks somewhat different today, as the dam
>> system for ship navigation has changed over the decades (less current;
>> possibly slightly higher average water levels too).
>>
>>
>>
>>> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
>>> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises they
>>> are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a "technical
>>> issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and the food and crew
>>> service was very good, but not great. We also had a few tour guides
>>> that did not speak great English. My wife had to assist one with
>>> translating the excellent French of a local vineyard owner.
>>
>> I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU, but
>> we've had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways.  One trade-off
>> for comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY laundry onboard
>> (helps lighten the bags) but AMA had better wines & wine stewards at
>> dinner.
>>
>>
>>> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an unplanned
>>> stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues for the schedule.
>>>
>>> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was very
>>> well done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured that city
>>> center for a day and a half by tram with a lake boat ride thrown in,
>>> and had a great meal on the last evening. Jolly good fun.
>>
>>
>> There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back to in
>> Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot for Rösti.
>>
>>
>>> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west of the
>>> lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for our dinner
>>> the tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was announced that
>>> there had been an accident ahead involving a tram and car. Line 4 was
>>> being delayed and diverted. Almost all the passengers left the tram.
>>> Two young locals offered to show us how to get to our destination. We
>>> followed their instructions and arrived via a different route with
>>> minimal delay. Could have figured that out ourselves but their
>>> assistance was very helpful.
>>
>>
>> Things like that happen.  Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed such
>> as heading to the airport for a departure flight.  Have had that
>> happen with a train issue in Belgium.
>>
>>
>>> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience the
>>> 787 for the first time too.
>>
>> IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757 version.
>>
>>
>>> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via
>>> rental car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we have
>>> not seen. And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not an issue
>>> for them.
>>
>>
>> Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well: several
>> different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche, Bordeaux,
>> Chateaus, etc).
>>
>> Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of Bourges,
>> as there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to Notre Dame
>> (but without crowds), plus an evening walk through its old timbered
>> houses section is nice: tastefully lit.  A single overnight is
>> adequate; figure it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive due south of Paris.
>>
>> And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk of
>> age restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in advance,
>> instead of getting blindsided at the last minute by it.
>>
>>
>> -hh
>>
>
> We ate in that same D'Orsey restaurant. Much nicer than the small snack
> bar on the ground floor.
>
> I think the onboard AMA experience is every bit as good as Viking. But
> their excursions are better and the cabins a bit larger. My take is that
> Viking has become so big that with multiple ships in a port as seemed to
> happen frequently they have issues with smaller places some of the AMA
> excursions we liked. Example - the small music museum at Rudesheim. I
> also remember that the guides were better and we had more free time in
> port.

FWIW, some of this also depends on which river you're on, as the ships
on the Rhine have grown in size which limits where they can dock.

> I just today watched a YouTube on touring France that may change my mind
> a bit about next year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RdNGT1jz8

[rearraging]

> We have done 2 weeks in Normandy/Brittany and about the same in Paris
> plus 2 trips that took us to the south coast. Time to branch out.
> Massif Central, Loire Valley and Alsace are high on my list.

Yes, there's a huge number of regions in France that US tourists are
utterly unaware of. There's some pretty wild scenery/canyons someplace
that I can't recall at the moment. I think I could easily do 5-6 trips,
not too much unlike we've already done in Germany.

> Taking the TGV to a city then renting the car if you need it could be a
> lot of fun, even if a bit more expensive. Thoughts?

We used the TGV to go from Paris (Gare de l’Est) to Colmar/Strasbourg
(near the Rhine) in 2022: it was straightforward, pretty easy, and
quite fast city to city: Strasbourg's just 1:45. I've also used the
Brussels to Paris "Thales" express too; IIRC, its just ~90 minutes or so
as well.

For Colmar, the train station's not super-central, so it was an easy 4-5
block walk pulling our bags. Once there, there was one day where it
would have been good to have had a car, but it was also good to not have
to worry about parking a car the rest of the time. The 'car day' was a
trip out of Colmar to an outlying village of Eguisheim, which is known
for the Church of Saint Peter and Saint Paul (a 13C chapel) and several
Alsatian wine producers, as the shuttlebus the city offered was over
capacity & ran too infrequently. But it is just as well though, as many
of the Eguisheim visitors were loading up their cars with cases of wines
to drive home; carting away a lot isn't really an option when flying.

On 9/1/2024 10:27 AM, -hh wrote:
> On 8/31/24 5:13 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>> On 8/30/2024 9:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>>> On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.
>>>
>>>
>>> That happens.  On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both caught
>>> some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was unpleasant.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel. Given
>>>> it was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the train/Metro
>>>> and a lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us as we arrived
>>>> several days before the Viking tour started.
>>>
>>>
>>> Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before
>>> considering your later comment about your travel companion's lower
>>> physical shape.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other
>>>> spots, and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are not
>>>> in the best physical shape and that limited our options. We traveled
>>>> by Metro, Uber, taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by the Notre
>>>> Dame crypt, Montmarte and Musee D'Orsay.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan taking a
>>> lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock face.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain and poor
>>>> visibility, but at that point we had no other options for another
>>>> day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets closed and
>>>> the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and blocked off.
>>>>
>>>> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery we
>>>> arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board, visited
>>>> some Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A WWII buff, I
>>>> was amazed the the Allies ever made it across the part of Moselle
>>>> valley we saw.
>>>
>>> I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel
>>> crossings, somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall
>>> correctly.  I understand that the river looks somewhat different
>>> today, as the dam system for ship navigation has changed over the
>>> decades (less current; possibly slightly higher average water levels
>>> too).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
>>>> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises
>>>> they are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a
>>>> "technical issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and the
>>>> food and crew service was very good, but not great. We also had a
>>>> few tour guides that did not speak great English. My wife had to
>>>> assist one with translating the excellent French of a local vineyard
>>>> owner.
>>>
>>> I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU, but
>>> we've had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways.  One
>>> trade-off for comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY
>>> laundry onboard (helps lighten the bags) but AMA had better wines &
>>> wine stewards at dinner.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an
>>>> unplanned stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues for
>>>> the schedule.
>>>>
>>>> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was very
>>>> well done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured that city
>>>> center for a day and a half by tram with a lake boat ride thrown in,
>>>> and had a great meal on the last evening. Jolly good fun.
>>>
>>>
>>> There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back to
>>> in Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot for Rösti.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west of
>>>> the lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for our
>>>> dinner the tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was announced
>>>> that there had been an accident ahead involving a tram and car. Line
>>>> 4 was being delayed and diverted. Almost all the passengers left the
>>>> tram. Two young locals offered to show us how to get to our
>>>> destination. We followed their instructions and arrived via a
>>>> different route with minimal delay. Could have figured that out
>>>> ourselves but their assistance was very helpful.
>>>
>>>
>>> Things like that happen.  Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed such
>>> as heading to the airport for a departure flight.  Have had that
>>> happen with a train issue in Belgium.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience the
>>>> 787 for the first time too.
>>>
>>> IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757 version.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via
>>>> rental car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we have
>>>> not seen. And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not an issue
>>>> for them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well: several
>>> different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche, Bordeaux,
>>> Chateaus, etc).
>>>
>>> Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of Bourges,
>>> as there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to Notre Dame
>>> (but without crowds), plus an evening walk through its old timbered
>>> houses section is nice: tastefully lit.  A single overnight is
>>> adequate; figure it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive due south of Paris.
>>>
>>> And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk of
>>> age restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in advance,
>>> instead of getting blindsided at the last minute by it.
>>>
>>>
>>> -hh
>>>
>>
>> We ate in that same D'Orsey restaurant. Much nicer than the small
>> snack bar on the ground floor.
>>
>> I think the onboard AMA experience is every bit as good as Viking. But
>> their excursions are better and the cabins a bit larger. My take is
>> that Viking has become so big that with multiple ships in a port as
>> seemed to happen frequently they have issues with smaller places some
>> of the AMA excursions we liked. Example - the small music museum at
>> Rudesheim. I also remember that the guides were better and we had more
>> free time in port.
>
> FWIW, some of this also depends on which river you're on, as the ships
> on the Rhine have grown in size which limits where they can dock.
>
>
>> I just today watched a YouTube on touring France that may change my
>> mind a bit about next year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RdNGT1jz8
>
> [rearraging]
>
> > We have done 2 weeks in Normandy/Brittany and about the same in Paris
> > plus 2 trips that took us to the south coast. Time to branch out.
> > Massif Central, Loire Valley and Alsace are high on my list.
>
> Yes, there's a huge number of regions in France that US tourists are
> utterly unaware of.  There's some pretty wild scenery/canyons someplace
> that I can't recall at the moment.  I think I could easily do 5-6 trips,
> not too much unlike we've already done in Germany.
>
>
>> Taking the TGV to a city then renting the car if you need it could be
>> a lot of fun, even if a bit more expensive. Thoughts?
>
> We used the TGV to go from Paris (Gare de l’Est) to Colmar/Strasbourg
> (near the Rhine) in 2022:  it was straightforward, pretty easy, and
> quite fast city to city:  Strasbourg's just 1:45.  I've also used the
> Brussels to Paris "Thales" express too; IIRC, its just ~90 minutes or so
> as well.
>
> For Colmar, the train station's not super-central, so it was an easy 4-5
> block walk pulling our bags.  Once there, there was one day where it
> would have been good to have had a car, but it was also good to not have
> to worry about parking a car the rest of the time.  The 'car day' was a
> trip out of Colmar to an outlying village of Eguisheim, which is known
> for the Church of Saint Peter and Saint Paul (a 13C chapel) and several
> Alsatian wine producers, as the shuttlebus the city offered was over
> capacity & ran too infrequently.  But it is just as well though, as many
> of the Eguisheim visitors were loading up their cars with cases of wines
> to drive home; carting away a lot isn't really an option when flying.
>
>
> -hh
>
>
>

On 9/6/24 11:12 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
> On 9/1/2024 10:27 AM, -hh wrote:
>> On 8/31/24 5:13 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>> On 8/30/2024 9:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>> On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That happens.  On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both caught
>>>> some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was unpleasant.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel.
>>>>> Given it was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the
>>>>> train/Metro and a lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us as
>>>>> we arrived several days before the Viking tour started.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before
>>>> considering your later comment about your travel companion's lower
>>>> physical shape.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other
>>>>> spots, and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are not
>>>>> in the best physical shape and that limited our options. We
>>>>> traveled by Metro, Uber, taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by the
>>>>> Notre Dame crypt, Montmarte and Musee D'Orsay.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan taking
>>>> a lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock face.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain and poor
>>>>> visibility, but at that point we had no other options for another
>>>>> day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets closed and
>>>>> the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and blocked off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery we
>>>>> arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board, visited
>>>>> some Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A WWII buff,
>>>>> I was amazed the the Allies ever made it across the part of Moselle
>>>>> valley we saw.
>>>>
>>>> I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel
>>>> crossings, somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall
>>>> correctly.  I understand that the river looks somewhat different
>>>> today, as the dam system for ship navigation has changed over the
>>>> decades (less current; possibly slightly higher average water levels
>>>> too).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
>>>>> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises
>>>>> they are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a
>>>>> "technical issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and the
>>>>> food and crew service was very good, but not great. We also had a
>>>>> few tour guides that did not speak great English. My wife had to
>>>>> assist one with translating the excellent French of a local
>>>>> vineyard owner.
>>>>
>>>> I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU, but
>>>> we've had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways.  One trade-
>>>> off for comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY laundry
>>>> onboard (helps lighten the bags) but AMA had better wines & wine
>>>> stewards at dinner.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an
>>>>> unplanned stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues
>>>>> for the schedule.
>>>>>
>>>>> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was very
>>>>> well done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured that city
>>>>> center for a day and a half by tram with a lake boat ride thrown
>>>>> in, and had a great meal on the last evening. Jolly good fun.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back to
>>>> in Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot for Rösti.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west of
>>>>> the lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for our
>>>>> dinner the tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was announced
>>>>> that there had been an accident ahead involving a tram and car.
>>>>> Line 4 was being delayed and diverted. Almost all the passengers
>>>>> left the tram. Two young locals offered to show us how to get to
>>>>> our destination. We followed their instructions and arrived via a
>>>>> different route with minimal delay. Could have figured that out
>>>>> ourselves but their assistance was very helpful.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Things like that happen.  Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed
>>>> such as heading to the airport for a departure flight.  Have had
>>>> that happen with a train issue in Belgium.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience
>>>>> the 787 for the first time too.
>>>>
>>>> IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757 version.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via
>>>>> rental car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we
>>>>> have not seen. And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not an
>>>>> issue for them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well:
>>>> several different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche,
>>>> Bordeaux, Chateaus, etc).
>>>>
>>>> Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of Bourges,
>>>> as there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to Notre Dame
>>>> (but without crowds), plus an evening walk through its old timbered
>>>> houses section is nice: tastefully lit.  A single overnight is
>>>> adequate; figure it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive due south of Paris.
>>>>
>>>> And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk of
>>>> age restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in advance,
>>>> instead of getting blindsided at the last minute by it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -hh
>>>>
>>>
>>> We ate in that same D'Orsey restaurant. Much nicer than the small
>>> snack bar on the ground floor.
>>>
>>> I think the onboard AMA experience is every bit as good as Viking.
>>> But their excursions are better and the cabins a bit larger. My take
>>> is that Viking has become so big that with multiple ships in a port
>>> as seemed to happen frequently they have issues with smaller places
>>> some of the AMA excursions we liked. Example - the small music museum
>>> at Rudesheim. I also remember that the guides were better and we had
>>> more free time in port.
>>
>> FWIW, some of this also depends on which river you're on, as the ships
>> on the Rhine have grown in size which limits where they can dock.
>>
>>
>>> I just today watched a YouTube on touring France that may change my
>>> mind a bit about next year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RdNGT1jz8
>>
>> [rearraging]
>>
>>  > We have done 2 weeks in Normandy/Brittany and about the same in Paris
>>  > plus 2 trips that took us to the south coast. Time to branch out.
>>  > Massif Central, Loire Valley and Alsace are high on my list.
>>
>> Yes, there's a huge number of regions in France that US tourists are
>> utterly unaware of.  There's some pretty wild scenery/canyons
>> someplace that I can't recall at the moment.  I think I could easily
>> do 5-6 trips, not too much unlike we've already done in Germany.
>>
>>
>>> Taking the TGV to a city then renting the car if you need it could be
>>> a lot of fun, even if a bit more expensive. Thoughts?
>>
>> We used the TGV to go from Paris (Gare de l’Est) to Colmar/Strasbourg
>> (near the Rhine) in 2022:  it was straightforward, pretty easy, and
>> quite fast city to city:  Strasbourg's just 1:45.  I've also used the
>> Brussels to Paris "Thales" express too; IIRC, its just ~90 minutes or
>> so as well.
>>
>> For Colmar, the train station's not super-central, so it was an easy
>> 4-5 block walk pulling our bags.  Once there, there was one day where
>> it would have been good to have had a car, but it was also good to not
>> have to worry about parking a car the rest of the time.  The 'car day'
>> was a trip out of Colmar to an outlying village of Eguisheim, which is
>> known for the Church of Saint Peter and Saint Paul (a 13C chapel) and
>> several Alsatian wine producers, as the shuttlebus the city offered
>> was over capacity & ran too infrequently.  But it is just as well
>> though, as many of the Eguisheim visitors were loading up their cars
>> with cases of wines to drive home; carting away a lot isn't really an
>> option when flying.
>>
>>
>> -hh
>>
>>
>>
>
> You should have gone to this gem too: https://riquewihr.fr/fr/ or
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riquewihr
>
> Just 7 miles east of Colmar. Very small and great wines. I just ordered
> a case of Riesling from a small winery we know there. Shipping was a lot
> more than the wine!

On 9/6/24 1:07 PM, -hh wrote:
> On 9/6/24 11:12 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>> On 9/1/2024 10:27 AM, -hh wrote:
>>> On 8/31/24 5:13 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>>> On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That happens.  On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both
>>>>> caught some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was
>>>>> unpleasant.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel.
>>>>>> Given it was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the
>>>>>> train/Metro and a lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us as
>>>>>> we arrived several days before the Viking tour started.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before
>>>>> considering your later comment about your travel companion's lower
>>>>> physical shape.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other
>>>>>> spots, and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are not
>>>>>> in the best physical shape and that limited our options. We
>>>>>> traveled by Metro, Uber, taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by
>>>>>> the Notre Dame crypt, Montmarte and Musee D'Orsay.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan taking
>>>>> a lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock face.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain and poor
>>>>>> visibility, but at that point we had no other options for another
>>>>>> day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets closed and
>>>>>> the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and blocked off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery
>>>>>> we arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board,
>>>>>> visited some Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A
>>>>>> WWII buff, I was amazed the the Allies ever made it across the
>>>>>> part of Moselle valley we saw.
>>>>>
>>>>> I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel
>>>>> crossings, somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall
>>>>> correctly.  I understand that the river looks somewhat different
>>>>> today, as the dam system for ship navigation has changed over the
>>>>> decades (less current; possibly slightly higher average water
>>>>> levels too).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
>>>>>> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises
>>>>>> they are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a
>>>>>> "technical issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and the
>>>>>> food and crew service was very good, but not great. We also had a
>>>>>> few tour guides that did not speak great English. My wife had to
>>>>>> assist one with translating the excellent French of a local
>>>>>> vineyard owner.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU, but
>>>>> we've had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways.  One trade-
>>>>> off for comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY laundry
>>>>> onboard (helps lighten the bags) but AMA had better wines & wine
>>>>> stewards at dinner.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an
>>>>>> unplanned stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues
>>>>>> for the schedule.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was very
>>>>>> well done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured that city
>>>>>> center for a day and a half by tram with a lake boat ride thrown
>>>>>> in, and had a great meal on the last evening. Jolly good fun.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back to
>>>>> in Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot for Rösti.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west of
>>>>>> the lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for our
>>>>>> dinner the tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was
>>>>>> announced that there had been an accident ahead involving a tram
>>>>>> and car. Line 4 was being delayed and diverted. Almost all the
>>>>>> passengers left the tram. Two young locals offered to show us how
>>>>>> to get to our destination. We followed their instructions and
>>>>>> arrived via a different route with minimal delay. Could have
>>>>>> figured that out ourselves but their assistance was very helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Things like that happen.  Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed
>>>>> such as heading to the airport for a departure flight.  Have had
>>>>> that happen with a train issue in Belgium.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience
>>>>>> the 787 for the first time too.
>>>>>
>>>>> IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757 version.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via
>>>>>> rental car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we
>>>>>> have not seen. And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not an
>>>>>> issue for them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well:
>>>>> several different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche,
>>>>> Bordeaux, Chateaus, etc).
>>>>>
>>>>> Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of
>>>>> Bourges, as there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to
>>>>> Notre Dame (but without crowds), plus an evening walk through its
>>>>> old timbered houses section is nice: tastefully lit.  A single
>>>>> overnight is adequate; figure it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive due south
>>>>> of Paris.
>>>>>
>>>>> And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk of
>>>>> age restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in advance,
>>>>> instead of getting blindsided at the last minute by it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -hh
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We ate in that same D'Orsey restaurant. Much nicer than the small
>>>> snack bar on the ground floor.
>>>>
>>>> I think the onboard AMA experience is every bit as good as Viking.
>>>> But their excursions are better and the cabins a bit larger. My take
>>>> is that Viking has become so big that with multiple ships in a port
>>>> as seemed to happen frequently they have issues with smaller places
>>>> some of the AMA excursions we liked. Example - the small music
>>>> museum at Rudesheim. I also remember that the guides were better and
>>>> we had more free time in port.
>>>
>>> FWIW, some of this also depends on which river you're on, as the
>>> ships on the Rhine have grown in size which limits where they can dock.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I just today watched a YouTube on touring France that may change my
>>>> mind a bit about next year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RdNGT1jz8
>>>
>>> [rearraging]
>>>
>>>  > We have done 2 weeks in Normandy/Brittany and about the same in Paris
>>>  > plus 2 trips that took us to the south coast. Time to branch out.
>>>  > Massif Central, Loire Valley and Alsace are high on my list.
>>>
>>> Yes, there's a huge number of regions in France that US tourists are
>>> utterly unaware of.  There's some pretty wild scenery/canyons
>>> someplace that I can't recall at the moment.  I think I could easily
>>> do 5-6 trips, not too much unlike we've already done in Germany.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Taking the TGV to a city then renting the car if you need it could
>>>> be a lot of fun, even if a bit more expensive. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> We used the TGV to go from Paris (Gare de l’Est) to Colmar/Strasbourg
>>> (near the Rhine) in 2022:  it was straightforward, pretty easy, and
>>> quite fast city to city:  Strasbourg's just 1:45.  I've also used the
>>> Brussels to Paris "Thales" express too; IIRC, its just ~90 minutes or
>>> so as well.
>>>
>>> For Colmar, the train station's not super-central, so it was an easy
>>> 4-5 block walk pulling our bags.  Once there, there was one day where
>>> it would have been good to have had a car, but it was also good to
>>> not have to worry about parking a car the rest of the time.  The 'car
>>> day' was a trip out of Colmar to an outlying village of Eguisheim,
>>> which is known for the Church of Saint Peter and Saint Paul (a 13C
>>> chapel) and several Alsatian wine producers, as the shuttlebus the
>>> city offered was over capacity & ran too infrequently.  But it is
>>> just as well though, as many of the Eguisheim visitors were loading
>>> up their cars with cases of wines to drive home; carting away a lot
>>> isn't really an option when flying.
>>>
>>>
>>> -hh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You should have gone to this gem too: https://riquewihr.fr/fr/ or
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riquewihr
>>
>> Just 7 miles east of Colmar. Very small and great wines. I just
>> ordered a case of Riesling from a small winery we know there. Shipping
>> was a lot more than the wine!
>
> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also visited
> Srasbourg too.
>
> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region; I
> think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of self-driving
> routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic conclusion is that if one
> wants to get to such small villages, it is better done with a rental car
> than by mass transit as we had done.

On 9/7/2024 9:13 AM, -hh wrote:
> On 9/6/24 1:07 PM, -hh wrote:
>> On 9/6/24 11:12 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>> On 9/1/2024 10:27 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>> On 8/31/24 5:13 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That happens.  On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both
>>>>>> caught some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was
>>>>>> unpleasant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel.
>>>>>>> Given it was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the
>>>>>>> train/Metro and a lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us
>>>>>>> as we arrived several days before the Viking tour started.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before
>>>>>> considering your later comment about your travel companion's lower
>>>>>> physical shape.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other
>>>>>>> spots, and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are
>>>>>>> not in the best physical shape and that limited our options. We
>>>>>>> traveled by Metro, Uber, taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by
>>>>>>> the Notre Dame crypt, Montmarte and Musee D'Orsay.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan
>>>>>> taking a lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock face.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain and poor
>>>>>>> visibility, but at that point we had no other options for another
>>>>>>> day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets closed
>>>>>>> and the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and blocked off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery
>>>>>>> we arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board,
>>>>>>> visited some Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A
>>>>>>> WWII buff, I was amazed the the Allies ever made it across the
>>>>>>> part of Moselle valley we saw.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel
>>>>>> crossings, somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall
>>>>>> correctly.  I understand that the river looks somewhat different
>>>>>> today, as the dam system for ship navigation has changed over the
>>>>>> decades (less current; possibly slightly higher average water
>>>>>> levels too).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
>>>>>>> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises
>>>>>>> they are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a
>>>>>>> "technical issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and the
>>>>>>> food and crew service was very good, but not great. We also had a
>>>>>>> few tour guides that did not speak great English. My wife had to
>>>>>>> assist one with translating the excellent French of a local
>>>>>>> vineyard owner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU, but
>>>>>> we've had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways.  One
>>>>>> trade- off for comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY
>>>>>> laundry onboard (helps lighten the bags) but AMA had better wines
>>>>>> & wine stewards at dinner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an
>>>>>>> unplanned stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues
>>>>>>> for the schedule.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was very
>>>>>>> well done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured that
>>>>>>> city center for a day and a half by tram with a lake boat ride
>>>>>>> thrown in, and had a great meal on the last evening. Jolly good fun.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back
>>>>>> to in Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot for
>>>>>> Rösti.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west of
>>>>>>> the lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for our
>>>>>>> dinner the tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was
>>>>>>> announced that there had been an accident ahead involving a tram
>>>>>>> and car. Line 4 was being delayed and diverted. Almost all the
>>>>>>> passengers left the tram. Two young locals offered to show us how
>>>>>>> to get to our destination. We followed their instructions and
>>>>>>> arrived via a different route with minimal delay. Could have
>>>>>>> figured that out ourselves but their assistance was very helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Things like that happen.  Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed
>>>>>> such as heading to the airport for a departure flight.  Have had
>>>>>> that happen with a train issue in Belgium.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience
>>>>>>> the 787 for the first time too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757
>>>>>> version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via
>>>>>>> rental car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we
>>>>>>> have not seen. And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not
>>>>>>> an issue for them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well:
>>>>>> several different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche,
>>>>>> Bordeaux, Chateaus, etc).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of
>>>>>> Bourges, as there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to
>>>>>> Notre Dame (but without crowds), plus an evening walk through its
>>>>>> old timbered houses section is nice: tastefully lit.  A single
>>>>>> overnight is adequate; figure it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive due
>>>>>> south of Paris.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk
>>>>>> of age restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in advance,
>>>>>> instead of getting blindsided at the last minute by it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We ate in that same D'Orsey restaurant. Much nicer than the small
>>>>> snack bar on the ground floor.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the onboard AMA experience is every bit as good as Viking.
>>>>> But their excursions are better and the cabins a bit larger. My
>>>>> take is that Viking has become so big that with multiple ships in a
>>>>> port as seemed to happen frequently they have issues with smaller
>>>>> places some of the AMA excursions we liked. Example - the small
>>>>> music museum at Rudesheim. I also remember that the guides were
>>>>> better and we had more free time in port.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, some of this also depends on which river you're on, as the
>>>> ships on the Rhine have grown in size which limits where they can dock.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I just today watched a YouTube on touring France that may change my
>>>>> mind a bit about next year.
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RdNGT1jz8
>>>>
>>>> [rearraging]
>>>>
>>>>  > We have done 2 weeks in Normandy/Brittany and about the same in
>>>> Paris
>>>>  > plus 2 trips that took us to the south coast. Time to branch out.
>>>>  > Massif Central, Loire Valley and Alsace are high on my list.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there's a huge number of regions in France that US tourists are
>>>> utterly unaware of.  There's some pretty wild scenery/canyons
>>>> someplace that I can't recall at the moment.  I think I could easily
>>>> do 5-6 trips, not too much unlike we've already done in Germany.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Taking the TGV to a city then renting the car if you need it could
>>>>> be a lot of fun, even if a bit more expensive. Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> We used the TGV to go from Paris (Gare de l’Est) to
>>>> Colmar/Strasbourg (near the Rhine) in 2022:  it was straightforward,
>>>> pretty easy, and quite fast city to city:  Strasbourg's just 1:45.
>>>> I've also used the Brussels to Paris "Thales" express too; IIRC, its
>>>> just ~90 minutes or so as well.
>>>>
>>>> For Colmar, the train station's not super-central, so it was an easy
>>>> 4-5 block walk pulling our bags.  Once there, there was one day
>>>> where it would have been good to have had a car, but it was also
>>>> good to not have to worry about parking a car the rest of the time.
>>>> The 'car day' was a trip out of Colmar to an outlying village of
>>>> Eguisheim, which is known for the Church of Saint Peter and Saint
>>>> Paul (a 13C chapel) and several Alsatian wine producers, as the
>>>> shuttlebus the city offered was over capacity & ran too
>>>> infrequently.  But it is just as well though, as many of the
>>>> Eguisheim visitors were loading up their cars with cases of wines to
>>>> drive home; carting away a lot isn't really an option when flying.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -hh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You should have gone to this gem too: https://riquewihr.fr/fr/ or
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riquewihr
>>>
>>> Just 7 miles east of Colmar. Very small and great wines. I just
>>> ordered a case of Riesling from a small winery we know there.
>>> Shipping was a lot more than the wine!
>>
>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also visited
>> Srasbourg too.
>>
>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region; I
>> think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of
>> self-driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic conclusion
>> is that if one wants to get to such small villages, it is better done
>> with a rental car than by mass transit as we had done.
>
>
> Forgot to mention that I've looked into the "ship some home" too.
>
> The problem I ran into are that State regulations on shipping of alcohol
> vary, and NJ is a "nope!" state.
>
> For hand-carrying, the last time that I can recall packing some 750ml
> wine bottles into checked baggage was from Budapest, and their security
> folk (at least I hope it was them!) either didn't have TSA keys, or
> didn't care:  they just cut all the locks off.
>
>
> -hh
>
>
>
Indiana is OK since about 5 years back. We carry wine home in checked
bags from Europe every trip, never had an issue. The record is 7 bottles
spread across 3 check bags. We do not lock our bags. You just reminded
me why. Those are flimsy locks that do no real good.

Tom Elam <thomas.e.elam@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/7/2024 9:13 AM, -hh wrote:
>> On 9/6/24 1:07 PM, -hh wrote:
>>> On 9/6/24 11:12 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/2024 10:27 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>>> On 8/31/24 5:13 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That happens.  On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both
>>>>>>> caught some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was
>>>>>>> unpleasant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel.
>>>>>>>> Given it was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the
>>>>>>>> train/Metro and a lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us
>>>>>>>> as we arrived several days before the Viking tour started.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before
>>>>>>> considering your later comment about your travel companion's lower
>>>>>>> physical shape.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other
>>>>>>>> spots, and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are
>>>>>>>> not in the best physical shape and that limited our options. We
>>>>>>>> traveled by Metro, Uber, taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by
>>>>>>>> the Notre Dame crypt, Montmarte and Musee D'Orsay.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan
>>>>>>> taking a lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock face.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain and poor
>>>>>>>> visibility, but at that point we had no other options for another
>>>>>>>> day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets closed
>>>>>>>> and the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and blocked off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery
>>>>>>>> we arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board,
>>>>>>>> visited some Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A
>>>>>>>> WWII buff, I was amazed the the Allies ever made it across the
>>>>>>>> part of Moselle valley we saw.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel
>>>>>>> crossings, somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall
>>>>>>> correctly.  I understand that the river looks somewhat different
>>>>>>> today, as the dam system for ship navigation has changed over the
>>>>>>> decades (less current; possibly slightly higher average water
>>>>>>> levels too).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
>>>>>>>> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises
>>>>>>>> they are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a
>>>>>>>> "technical issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and the
>>>>>>>> food and crew service was very good, but not great. We also had a
>>>>>>>> few tour guides that did not speak great English. My wife had to
>>>>>>>> assist one with translating the excellent French of a local
>>>>>>>> vineyard owner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU, but
>>>>>>> we've had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways.  One
>>>>>>> trade- off for comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY
>>>>>>> laundry onboard (helps lighten the bags) but AMA had better wines
>>>>>>> & wine stewards at dinner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an
>>>>>>>> unplanned stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues
>>>>>>>> for the schedule.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was very
>>>>>>>> well done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured that
>>>>>>>> city center for a day and a half by tram with a lake boat ride
>>>>>>>> thrown in, and had a great meal on the last evening. Jolly good fun.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back
>>>>>>> to in Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot for
>>>>>>> Rösti.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west of
>>>>>>>> the lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for our
>>>>>>>> dinner the tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was
>>>>>>>> announced that there had been an accident ahead involving a tram
>>>>>>>> and car. Line 4 was being delayed and diverted. Almost all the
>>>>>>>> passengers left the tram. Two young locals offered to show us how
>>>>>>>> to get to our destination. We followed their instructions and
>>>>>>>> arrived via a different route with minimal delay. Could have
>>>>>>>> figured that out ourselves but their assistance was very helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Things like that happen.  Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed
>>>>>>> such as heading to the airport for a departure flight.  Have had
>>>>>>> that happen with a train issue in Belgium.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience
>>>>>>>> the 787 for the first time too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757
>>>>>>> version.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via
>>>>>>>> rental car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we
>>>>>>>> have not seen. And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not
>>>>>>>> an issue for them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well:
>>>>>>> several different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche,
>>>>>>> Bordeaux, Chateaus, etc).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of
>>>>>>> Bourges, as there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to
>>>>>>> Notre Dame (but without crowds), plus an evening walk through its
>>>>>>> old timbered houses section is nice: tastefully lit.  A single
>>>>>>> overnight is adequate; figure it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive due
>>>>>>> south of Paris.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk
>>>>>>> of age restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in advance,
>>>>>>> instead of getting blindsided at the last minute by it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We ate in that same D'Orsey restaurant. Much nicer than the small
>>>>>> snack bar on the ground floor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the onboard AMA experience is every bit as good as Viking.
>>>>>> But their excursions are better and the cabins a bit larger. My
>>>>>> take is that Viking has become so big that with multiple ships in a
>>>>>> port as seemed to happen frequently they have issues with smaller
>>>>>> places some of the AMA excursions we liked. Example - the small
>>>>>> music museum at Rudesheim. I also remember that the guides were
>>>>>> better and we had more free time in port.
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW, some of this also depends on which river you're on, as the
>>>>> ships on the Rhine have grown in size which limits where they can dock.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I just today watched a YouTube on touring France that may change my
>>>>>> mind a bit about next year.
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RdNGT1jz8
>>>>>
>>>>> [rearraging]
>>>>>
>>>>>> We have done 2 weeks in Normandy/Brittany and about the same in
>>>>> Paris
>>>>>> plus 2 trips that took us to the south coast. Time to branch out.
>>>>>> Massif Central, Loire Valley and Alsace are high on my list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, there's a huge number of regions in France that US tourists are
>>>>> utterly unaware of.  There's some pretty wild scenery/canyons
>>>>> someplace that I can't recall at the moment.  I think I could easily
>>>>> do 5-6 trips, not too much unlike we've already done in Germany.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Taking the TGV to a city then renting the car if you need it could
>>>>>> be a lot of fun, even if a bit more expensive. Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> We used the TGV to go from Paris (Gare de l’Est) to
>>>>> Colmar/Strasbourg (near the Rhine) in 2022:  it was straightforward,
>>>>> pretty easy, and quite fast city to city:  Strasbourg's just 1:45.
>>>>> I've also used the Brussels to Paris "Thales" express too; IIRC, its
>>>>> just ~90 minutes or so as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> For Colmar, the train station's not super-central, so it was an easy
>>>>> 4-5 block walk pulling our bags.  Once there, there was one day
>>>>> where it would have been good to have had a car, but it was also
>>>>> good to not have to worry about parking a car the rest of the time.
>>>>> The 'car day' was a trip out of Colmar to an outlying village of
>>>>> Eguisheim, which is known for the Church of Saint Peter and Saint
>>>>> Paul (a 13C chapel) and several Alsatian wine producers, as the
>>>>> shuttlebus the city offered was over capacity & ran too
>>>>> infrequently.  But it is just as well though, as many of the
>>>>> Eguisheim visitors were loading up their cars with cases of wines to
>>>>> drive home; carting away a lot isn't really an option when flying.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -hh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You should have gone to this gem too: https://riquewihr.fr/fr/ or
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riquewihr
>>>>
>>>> Just 7 miles east of Colmar. Very small and great wines. I just
>>>> ordered a case of Riesling from a small winery we know there.
>>>> Shipping was a lot more than the wine!
>>>
>>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also visited
>>> Srasbourg too.
>>>
>>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region; I
>>> think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of
>>> self-driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic conclusion
>>> is that if one wants to get to such small villages, it is better done
>>> with a rental car than by mass transit as we had done.
>>
>>
>> Forgot to mention that I've looked into the "ship some home" too.
>>
>> The problem I ran into are that State regulations on shipping of alcohol
>> vary, and NJ is a "nope!" state.
>>
>> For hand-carrying, the last time that I can recall packing some 750ml
>> wine bottles into checked baggage was from Budapest, and their security
>> folk (at least I hope it was them!) either didn't have TSA keys, or
>> didn't care:  they just cut all the locks off.
>>
>>
>> -hh
>>
>>
>>
> Indiana is OK since about 5 years back. We carry wine home in checked
> bags from Europe every trip, never had an issue. The record is 7 bottles
> spread across 3 check bags. We do not lock our bags. You just reminded
> me why. Those are flimsy locks that do no real good.

On 2024-09-10 15:54, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>
>>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also visited
>>> Srasbourg too.
>>>
>>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region; I
>>> think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of self-
>>> driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic conclusion is
>>> that if one wants to get to such small villages, it is better done
>>> with a rental car than by mass transit as we had done.
>>
>>
>> Forgot to mention that I've looked into the "ship some home" too.
>>
>> The problem I ran into are that State regulations on shipping of
>> alcohol vary, and NJ is a "nope!" state.
>>
>> For hand-carrying, the last time that I can recall packing some 750ml
>> wine bottles into checked baggage was from Budapest, and their
>> security folk (at least I hope it was them!) either didn't have TSA
>> keys, or didn't care:  they just cut all the locks off.
>>
>>
>> -hh
>>
>>
>>
> Indiana is OK since about 5 years back. We carry wine home in checked
> bags from Europe every trip, never had an issue. The record is 7 bottles
> spread across 3 check bags. We do not lock our bags. You just reminded
> me why. Those are flimsy locks that do no real good.

And you're paying the tax and duty on those bottles, I assume.

:-)

On 9/11/2024 5:17 PM, Alan wrote:
> On 2024-09-10 15:54, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also
>>>> visited Srasbourg too.
>>>>
>>>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region; I
>>>> think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of self-
>>>> driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic conclusion is
>>>> that if one wants to get to such small villages, it is better done
>>>> with a rental car than by mass transit as we had done.
>>>
>>>
>>> Forgot to mention that I've looked into the "ship some home" too.
>>>
>>> The problem I ran into are that State regulations on shipping of
>>> alcohol vary, and NJ is a "nope!" state.
>>>
>>> For hand-carrying, the last time that I can recall packing some 750ml
>>> wine bottles into checked baggage was from Budapest, and their
>>> security folk (at least I hope it was them!) either didn't have TSA
>>> keys, or didn't care:  they just cut all the locks off.
>>>
>>>
>>> -hh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Indiana is OK since about 5 years back. We carry wine home in checked
>> bags from Europe every trip, never had an issue. The record is 7
>> bottles spread across 3 check bags. We do not lock our bags. You just
>> reminded me why. Those are flimsy locks that do no real good.
>
> And you're paying the tax and duty on those bottles, I assume.
>
> :-)
Yes, that's why shipping is so expensive.

On 9/10/2024 10:18 PM, -hh wrote:
> Tom Elam <thomas.e.elam@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 9/7/2024 9:13 AM, -hh wrote:
>>> On 9/6/24 1:07 PM, -hh wrote:
>>>> On 9/6/24 11:12 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>> On 9/1/2024 10:27 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/31/24 5:13 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>>> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That happens.  On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both
>>>>>>>> caught some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was
>>>>>>>> unpleasant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel.
>>>>>>>>> Given it was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the
>>>>>>>>> train/Metro and a lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us
>>>>>>>>> as we arrived several days before the Viking tour started.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before
>>>>>>>> considering your later comment about your travel companion's lower
>>>>>>>> physical shape.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other
>>>>>>>>> spots, and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are
>>>>>>>>> not in the best physical shape and that limited our options. We
>>>>>>>>> traveled by Metro, Uber, taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by
>>>>>>>>> the Notre Dame crypt, Montmarte and Musee D'Orsay.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan
>>>>>>>> taking a lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock face.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain and poor
>>>>>>>>> visibility, but at that point we had no other options for another
>>>>>>>>> day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets closed
>>>>>>>>> and the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and blocked off.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery
>>>>>>>>> we arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board,
>>>>>>>>> visited some Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A
>>>>>>>>> WWII buff, I was amazed the the Allies ever made it across the
>>>>>>>>> part of Moselle valley we saw.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel
>>>>>>>> crossings, somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall
>>>>>>>> correctly.  I understand that the river looks somewhat different
>>>>>>>> today, as the dam system for ship navigation has changed over the
>>>>>>>> decades (less current; possibly slightly higher average water
>>>>>>>> levels too).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
>>>>>>>>> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises
>>>>>>>>> they are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a
>>>>>>>>> "technical issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and the
>>>>>>>>> food and crew service was very good, but not great. We also had a
>>>>>>>>> few tour guides that did not speak great English. My wife had to
>>>>>>>>> assist one with translating the excellent French of a local
>>>>>>>>> vineyard owner.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU, but
>>>>>>>> we've had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways.  One
>>>>>>>> trade- off for comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY
>>>>>>>> laundry onboard (helps lighten the bags) but AMA had better wines
>>>>>>>> & wine stewards at dinner.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an
>>>>>>>>> unplanned stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues
>>>>>>>>> for the schedule.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was very
>>>>>>>>> well done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured that
>>>>>>>>> city center for a day and a half by tram with a lake boat ride
>>>>>>>>> thrown in, and had a great meal on the last evening. Jolly good fun.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back
>>>>>>>> to in Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot for
>>>>>>>> Rösti.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west of
>>>>>>>>> the lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for our
>>>>>>>>> dinner the tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was
>>>>>>>>> announced that there had been an accident ahead involving a tram
>>>>>>>>> and car. Line 4 was being delayed and diverted. Almost all the
>>>>>>>>> passengers left the tram. Two young locals offered to show us how
>>>>>>>>> to get to our destination. We followed their instructions and
>>>>>>>>> arrived via a different route with minimal delay. Could have
>>>>>>>>> figured that out ourselves but their assistance was very helpful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Things like that happen.  Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed
>>>>>>>> such as heading to the airport for a departure flight.  Have had
>>>>>>>> that happen with a train issue in Belgium.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience
>>>>>>>>> the 787 for the first time too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757
>>>>>>>> version.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via
>>>>>>>>> rental car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we
>>>>>>>>> have not seen. And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not
>>>>>>>>> an issue for them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well:
>>>>>>>> several different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche,
>>>>>>>> Bordeaux, Chateaus, etc).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of
>>>>>>>> Bourges, as there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to
>>>>>>>> Notre Dame (but without crowds), plus an evening walk through its
>>>>>>>> old timbered houses section is nice: tastefully lit.  A single
>>>>>>>> overnight is adequate; figure it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive due
>>>>>>>> south of Paris.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk
>>>>>>>> of age restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in advance,
>>>>>>>> instead of getting blindsided at the last minute by it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We ate in that same D'Orsey restaurant. Much nicer than the small
>>>>>>> snack bar on the ground floor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the onboard AMA experience is every bit as good as Viking.
>>>>>>> But their excursions are better and the cabins a bit larger. My
>>>>>>> take is that Viking has become so big that with multiple ships in a
>>>>>>> port as seemed to happen frequently they have issues with smaller
>>>>>>> places some of the AMA excursions we liked. Example - the small
>>>>>>> music museum at Rudesheim. I also remember that the guides were
>>>>>>> better and we had more free time in port.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW, some of this also depends on which river you're on, as the
>>>>>> ships on the Rhine have grown in size which limits where they can dock.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just today watched a YouTube on touring France that may change my
>>>>>>> mind a bit about next year.
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RdNGT1jz8
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [rearraging]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We have done 2 weeks in Normandy/Brittany and about the same in
>>>>>> Paris
>>>>>>> plus 2 trips that took us to the south coast. Time to branch out.
>>>>>>> Massif Central, Loire Valley and Alsace are high on my list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, there's a huge number of regions in France that US tourists are
>>>>>> utterly unaware of.  There's some pretty wild scenery/canyons
>>>>>> someplace that I can't recall at the moment.  I think I could easily
>>>>>> do 5-6 trips, not too much unlike we've already done in Germany.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Taking the TGV to a city then renting the car if you need it could
>>>>>>> be a lot of fun, even if a bit more expensive. Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We used the TGV to go from Paris (Gare de l’Est) to
>>>>>> Colmar/Strasbourg (near the Rhine) in 2022:  it was straightforward,
>>>>>> pretty easy, and quite fast city to city:  Strasbourg's just 1:45.
>>>>>> I've also used the Brussels to Paris "Thales" express too; IIRC, its
>>>>>> just ~90 minutes or so as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For Colmar, the train station's not super-central, so it was an easy
>>>>>> 4-5 block walk pulling our bags.  Once there, there was one day
>>>>>> where it would have been good to have had a car, but it was also
>>>>>> good to not have to worry about parking a car the rest of the time.
>>>>>> The 'car day' was a trip out of Colmar to an outlying village of
>>>>>> Eguisheim, which is known for the Church of Saint Peter and Saint
>>>>>> Paul (a 13C chapel) and several Alsatian wine producers, as the
>>>>>> shuttlebus the city offered was over capacity & ran too
>>>>>> infrequently.  But it is just as well though, as many of the
>>>>>> Eguisheim visitors were loading up their cars with cases of wines to
>>>>>> drive home; carting away a lot isn't really an option when flying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You should have gone to this gem too: https://riquewihr.fr/fr/ or
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riquewihr
>>>>>
>>>>> Just 7 miles east of Colmar. Very small and great wines. I just
>>>>> ordered a case of Riesling from a small winery we know there.
>>>>> Shipping was a lot more than the wine!
>>>>
>>>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also visited
>>>> Srasbourg too.
>>>>
>>>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region; I
>>>> think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of
>>>> self-driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic conclusion
>>>> is that if one wants to get to such small villages, it is better done
>>>> with a rental car than by mass transit as we had done.
>>>
>>>
>>> Forgot to mention that I've looked into the "ship some home" too.
>>>
>>> The problem I ran into are that State regulations on shipping of alcohol
>>> vary, and NJ is a "nope!" state.
>>>
>>> For hand-carrying, the last time that I can recall packing some 750ml
>>> wine bottles into checked baggage was from Budapest, and their security
>>> folk (at least I hope it was them!) either didn't have TSA keys, or
>>> didn't care:  they just cut all the locks off.
>>>
>>>
>>> -hh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Indiana is OK since about 5 years back. We carry wine home in checked
>> bags from Europe every trip, never had an issue. The record is 7 bottles
>> spread across 3 check bags. We do not lock our bags. You just reminded
>> me why. Those are flimsy locks that do no real good.
>
> I view such locks simply as tamper detection devices. We’ve had our bags
> ruffled & damaged a few times by probable thieves…think the last one was
> outbound to Scandinavia?
>
> Also had a vendor some years back get his big aluminum case broken into
> while in domestic commercial airline transport , which triggered an FBI
> investigation, for it was transferring a Caliber .50 machine gun.
>
> -hh
>
>
>
Must be bad karma. I have logged over 2000 commercial flight legs. Never
had baggage stolen or even lost. Damage? Yes. Delayed? Yes. Confiscated
by TSA? Yes. (A small Swiss knife and a few oversize toiletry items.)
Anything stolen from a bag? No.

On 2024-09-11 19:39, Tom Elam wrote:
> On 9/11/2024 5:17 PM, Alan wrote:
>> On 2024-09-10 15:54, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also
>>>>> visited Srasbourg too.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region;
>>>>> I think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of self-
>>>>> driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic conclusion is
>>>>> that if one wants to get to such small villages, it is better done
>>>>> with a rental car than by mass transit as we had done.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Forgot to mention that I've looked into the "ship some home" too.
>>>>
>>>> The problem I ran into are that State regulations on shipping of
>>>> alcohol vary, and NJ is a "nope!" state.
>>>>
>>>> For hand-carrying, the last time that I can recall packing some
>>>> 750ml wine bottles into checked baggage was from Budapest, and their
>>>> security folk (at least I hope it was them!) either didn't have TSA
>>>> keys, or didn't care:  they just cut all the locks off.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -hh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Indiana is OK since about 5 years back. We carry wine home in checked
>>> bags from Europe every trip, never had an issue. The record is 7
>>> bottles spread across 3 check bags. We do not lock our bags. You just
>>> reminded me why. Those are flimsy locks that do no real good.
>>
>> And you're paying the tax and duty on those bottles, I assume.
>>
>> :-)
> Yes, that's why shipping is so expensive.

But you just talked about carrying wine home in your checked bags.

That's not what anyone I know calls "shipping".

On 9/11/24 10:51 PM, Alan wrote:
> On 2024-09-11 19:39, Tom Elam wrote:
>> On 9/11/2024 5:17 PM, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2024-09-10 15:54, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also
>>>>>> visited Srasbourg too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region;
>>>>>> I think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of
>>>>>> self- driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic
>>>>>> conclusion is that if one wants to get to such small villages, it
>>>>>> is better done with a rental car than by mass transit as we had done.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Forgot to mention that I've looked into the "ship some home" too.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem I ran into are that State regulations on shipping of
>>>>> alcohol vary, and NJ is a "nope!" state.
>>>>>
>>>>> For hand-carrying, the last time that I can recall packing some
>>>>> 750ml wine bottles into checked baggage was from Budapest, and
>>>>> their security folk (at least I hope it was them!) either didn't
>>>>> have TSA keys, or didn't care:  they just cut all the locks off.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -hh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Indiana is OK since about 5 years back. We carry wine home in
>>>> checked bags from Europe every trip, never had an issue. The record
>>>> is 7 bottles spread across 3 check bags. We do not lock our bags.
>>>> You just reminded me why. Those are flimsy locks that do no real good.
>>>
>>> And you're paying the tax and duty on those bottles, I assume.
>>>
>>> :-)
>> Yes, that's why shipping is so expensive.
>
> But you just talked about carrying wine home in your checked bags.
>
> That's not what anyone I know calls "shipping".

Its another illustration of the trade-offs.

Carrying them home falls under the US customs $800/person exemption, if
one is within the volume limits too. Even so, the duty rates on
overages isn't onerous .. something like 50 cents per wine bottle.

Shipping has no exemption provision (you're not traveling "with" it).
Plus as I noted, it can be prohibited by State law...and it had been
prohibited to be shipped via USPS (Federal Postal laws), so one has to
look to the private services (FedEx/UPS/DHL) for transportation.

-hh

On 2024-09-12 05:16, -hh wrote:
> On 9/11/24 10:51 PM, Alan wrote:
>> On 2024-09-11 19:39, Tom Elam wrote:
>>> On 9/11/2024 5:17 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>> On 2024-09-10 15:54, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also
>>>>>>> visited Srasbourg too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace
>>>>>>> region; I think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a
>>>>>>> couple of self- driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my
>>>>>>> basic conclusion is that if one wants to get to such small
>>>>>>> villages, it is better done with a rental car than by mass
>>>>>>> transit as we had done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Forgot to mention that I've looked into the "ship some home" too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem I ran into are that State regulations on shipping of
>>>>>> alcohol vary, and NJ is a "nope!" state.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For hand-carrying, the last time that I can recall packing some
>>>>>> 750ml wine bottles into checked baggage was from Budapest, and
>>>>>> their security folk (at least I hope it was them!) either didn't
>>>>>> have TSA keys, or didn't care:  they just cut all the locks off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Indiana is OK since about 5 years back. We carry wine home in
>>>>> checked bags from Europe every trip, never had an issue. The record
>>>>> is 7 bottles spread across 3 check bags. We do not lock our bags.
>>>>> You just reminded me why. Those are flimsy locks that do no real good.
>>>>
>>>> And you're paying the tax and duty on those bottles, I assume.
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>> Yes, that's why shipping is so expensive.
>>
>> But you just talked about carrying wine home in your checked bags.
>>
>> That's not what anyone I know calls "shipping".
>
> Its another illustration of the trade-offs.
>
> Carrying them home falls under the US customs $800/person exemption, if
> one is within the volume limits too.  Even so, the duty rates on
> overages isn't onerous .. something like 50 cents per wine bottle.
>
> Shipping has no exemption provision (you're not traveling "with" it).
> Plus as I noted, it can be prohibited by State law...and it had been
> prohibited to be shipped via USPS (Federal Postal laws), so one has to
> look to the private services (FedEx/UPS/DHL) for transportation.
Is there not also a specific restriction about alcohol? There certainly
is in Canada.

:-)

On 9/12/24 10:34 AM, Alan wrote:
> On 2024-09-12 05:16, -hh wrote:
>> On 9/11/24 10:51 PM, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2024-09-11 19:39, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>> On 9/11/2024 5:17 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-09-10 15:54, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also
>>>>>>>> visited Srasbourg too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace
>>>>>>>> region; I think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a
>>>>>>>> couple of self- driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my
>>>>>>>> basic conclusion is that if one wants to get to such small
>>>>>>>> villages, it is better done with a rental car than by mass
>>>>>>>> transit as we had done.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Forgot to mention that I've looked into the "ship some home" too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem I ran into are that State regulations on shipping of
>>>>>>> alcohol vary, and NJ is a "nope!" state.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For hand-carrying, the last time that I can recall packing some
>>>>>>> 750ml wine bottles into checked baggage was from Budapest, and
>>>>>>> their security folk (at least I hope it was them!) either didn't
>>>>>>> have TSA keys, or didn't care:  they just cut all the locks off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indiana is OK since about 5 years back. We carry wine home in
>>>>>> checked bags from Europe every trip, never had an issue. The
>>>>>> record is 7 bottles spread across 3 check bags. We do not lock our
>>>>>> bags. You just reminded me why. Those are flimsy locks that do no
>>>>>> real good.
>>>>>
>>>>> And you're paying the tax and duty on those bottles, I assume.
>>>>>
>>>>> :-)
>>>> Yes, that's why shipping is so expensive.
>>>
>>> But you just talked about carrying wine home in your checked bags.
>>>
>>> That's not what anyone I know calls "shipping".
>>
>> Its another illustration of the trade-offs.
>>
>> Carrying them home falls under the US customs $800/person exemption,
>> if one is within the volume limits too.  Even so, the duty rates on
>> overages isn't onerous .. something like 50 cents per wine bottle.
>>
>> Shipping has no exemption provision (you're not traveling "with" it).
>> Plus as I noted, it can be prohibited by State law...and it had been
>> prohibited to be shipped via USPS (Federal Postal laws), so one has to
>> look to the private services (FedEx/UPS/DHL) for transportation.
>
> Is there not also a specific restriction about alcohol? There certainly
> is in Canada.
>
> :-)

Yes, which I allude to when I said "within volume limits too". Looking
it up, the US customs duty-free allowance is 1L/person (every N days).

FYI, it doesn't differentiate by alcoholic content (like some other
countries have done), so 1L spirits = 1L beer = 1L wine. Fortunately,
the US duty rates for overages are quite low (like ~50 cents per liter),
plus Customs tends to ignore minor overages rather than to go through
the paperwork hassle to collect all of two bucks. Think my biggest
personal overage was my hand-carrying 5L of Beaujolais Nouveau on its
day of release in Paris back to the US, which I hand-carried onwards the
next day to Pirate's Point owner Gladys Howard as a surprise gift.

-hh

On 9/11/2024 10:51 PM, Alan wrote:
> On 2024-09-11 19:39, Tom Elam wrote:
>> On 9/11/2024 5:17 PM, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2024-09-10 15:54, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also
>>>>>> visited Srasbourg too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region;
>>>>>> I think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of
>>>>>> self- driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic
>>>>>> conclusion is that if one wants to get to such small villages, it
>>>>>> is better done with a rental car than by mass transit as we had done.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Forgot to mention that I've looked into the "ship some home" too.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem I ran into are that State regulations on shipping of
>>>>> alcohol vary, and NJ is a "nope!" state.
>>>>>
>>>>> For hand-carrying, the last time that I can recall packing some
>>>>> 750ml wine bottles into checked baggage was from Budapest, and
>>>>> their security folk (at least I hope it was them!) either didn't
>>>>> have TSA keys, or didn't care:  they just cut all the locks off.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -hh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Indiana is OK since about 5 years back. We carry wine home in
>>>> checked bags from Europe every trip, never had an issue. The record
>>>> is 7 bottles spread across 3 check bags. We do not lock our bags.
>>>> You just reminded me why. Those are flimsy locks that do no real good.
>>>
>>> And you're paying the tax and duty on those bottles, I assume.
>>>
>>> :-)
>> Yes, that's why shipping is so expensive.
>
> But you just talked about carrying wine home in your checked bags.
>
> That's not what anyone I know calls "shipping".

I was referring to the case that was shipped to me last week. No, we did
not pay any tax, but always declared what we had in the luggage. Customs
never asked us to pay anything. Apparently just not worth the time and
trouble.

On 9/12/2024 1:07 PM, -hh wrote:
> On 9/12/24 10:34 AM, Alan wrote:
>> On 2024-09-12 05:16, -hh wrote:
>>> On 9/11/24 10:51 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>> On 2024-09-11 19:39, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>> On 9/11/2024 5:17 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-09-10 15:54, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also
>>>>>>>>> visited Srasbourg too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace
>>>>>>>>> region; I think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a
>>>>>>>>> couple of self- driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my
>>>>>>>>> basic conclusion is that if one wants to get to such small
>>>>>>>>> villages, it is better done with a rental car than by mass
>>>>>>>>> transit as we had done.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Forgot to mention that I've looked into the "ship some home" too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The problem I ran into are that State regulations on shipping of
>>>>>>>> alcohol vary, and NJ is a "nope!" state.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For hand-carrying, the last time that I can recall packing some
>>>>>>>> 750ml wine bottles into checked baggage was from Budapest, and
>>>>>>>> their security folk (at least I hope it was them!) either didn't
>>>>>>>> have TSA keys, or didn't care:  they just cut all the locks off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indiana is OK since about 5 years back. We carry wine home in
>>>>>>> checked bags from Europe every trip, never had an issue. The
>>>>>>> record is 7 bottles spread across 3 check bags. We do not lock
>>>>>>> our bags. You just reminded me why. Those are flimsy locks that
>>>>>>> do no real good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you're paying the tax and duty on those bottles, I assume.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>> Yes, that's why shipping is so expensive.
>>>>
>>>> But you just talked about carrying wine home in your checked bags.
>>>>
>>>> That's not what anyone I know calls "shipping".
>>>
>>> Its another illustration of the trade-offs.
>>>
>>> Carrying them home falls under the US customs $800/person exemption,
>>> if one is within the volume limits too.  Even so, the duty rates on
>>> overages isn't onerous .. something like 50 cents per wine bottle.
>>>
>>> Shipping has no exemption provision (you're not traveling "with" it).
>>> Plus as I noted, it can be prohibited by State law...and it had been
>>> prohibited to be shipped via USPS (Federal Postal laws), so one has
>>> to look to the private services (FedEx/UPS/DHL) for transportation.
>>
>> Is there not also a specific restriction about alcohol? There
>> certainly is in Canada.
>>
>> :-)
>
> Yes, which I allude to when I said "within volume limits too".  Looking
> it up, the US customs duty-free allowance is 1L/person (every N days).
>
> FYI, it doesn't differentiate by alcoholic content (like some other
> countries have done), so 1L spirits = 1L beer = 1L wine.  Fortunately,
> the US duty rates for overages are quite low (like ~50 cents per liter),
> plus Customs tends to ignore minor overages rather than to go through
> the paperwork hassle to collect all of two bucks.  Think my biggest
> personal overage was my hand-carrying 5L of Beaujolais Nouveau on its
> day of release in Paris back to the US, which I hand-carried onwards the
> next day to Pirate's Point owner Gladys Howard as a surprise gift.
>
>
> -hh

Bingo, we declared our wine but Customs never asked for a payment.

On 9/6/2024 1:07 PM, -hh wrote:
> On 9/6/24 11:12 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>> On 9/1/2024 10:27 AM, -hh wrote:
>>> On 8/31/24 5:13 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>>> On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That happens.  On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both
>>>>> caught some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was
>>>>> unpleasant.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel.
>>>>>> Given it was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the
>>>>>> train/Metro and a lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us as
>>>>>> we arrived several days before the Viking tour started.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before
>>>>> considering your later comment about your travel companion's lower
>>>>> physical shape.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other
>>>>>> spots, and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are not
>>>>>> in the best physical shape and that limited our options. We
>>>>>> traveled by Metro, Uber, taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by
>>>>>> the Notre Dame crypt, Montmarte and Musee D'Orsay.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan taking
>>>>> a lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock face.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain and poor
>>>>>> visibility, but at that point we had no other options for another
>>>>>> day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets closed and
>>>>>> the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and blocked off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery
>>>>>> we arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board,
>>>>>> visited some Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A
>>>>>> WWII buff, I was amazed the the Allies ever made it across the
>>>>>> part of Moselle valley we saw.
>>>>>
>>>>> I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel
>>>>> crossings, somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall
>>>>> correctly.  I understand that the river looks somewhat different
>>>>> today, as the dam system for ship navigation has changed over the
>>>>> decades (less current; possibly slightly higher average water
>>>>> levels too).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
>>>>>> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises
>>>>>> they are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a
>>>>>> "technical issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and the
>>>>>> food and crew service was very good, but not great. We also had a
>>>>>> few tour guides that did not speak great English. My wife had to
>>>>>> assist one with translating the excellent French of a local
>>>>>> vineyard owner.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU, but
>>>>> we've had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways.  One trade-
>>>>> off for comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY laundry
>>>>> onboard (helps lighten the bags) but AMA had better wines & wine
>>>>> stewards at dinner.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an
>>>>>> unplanned stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues
>>>>>> for the schedule.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was very
>>>>>> well done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured that city
>>>>>> center for a day and a half by tram with a lake boat ride thrown
>>>>>> in, and had a great meal on the last evening. Jolly good fun.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back to
>>>>> in Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot for Rösti.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west of
>>>>>> the lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for our
>>>>>> dinner the tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was
>>>>>> announced that there had been an accident ahead involving a tram
>>>>>> and car. Line 4 was being delayed and diverted. Almost all the
>>>>>> passengers left the tram. Two young locals offered to show us how
>>>>>> to get to our destination. We followed their instructions and
>>>>>> arrived via a different route with minimal delay. Could have
>>>>>> figured that out ourselves but their assistance was very helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Things like that happen.  Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed
>>>>> such as heading to the airport for a departure flight.  Have had
>>>>> that happen with a train issue in Belgium.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience
>>>>>> the 787 for the first time too.
>>>>>
>>>>> IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757 version.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via
>>>>>> rental car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we
>>>>>> have not seen. And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not an
>>>>>> issue for them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well:
>>>>> several different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche,
>>>>> Bordeaux, Chateaus, etc).
>>>>>
>>>>> Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of
>>>>> Bourges, as there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to
>>>>> Notre Dame (but without crowds), plus an evening walk through its
>>>>> old timbered houses section is nice: tastefully lit.  A single
>>>>> overnight is adequate; figure it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive due south
>>>>> of Paris.
>>>>>
>>>>> And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk of
>>>>> age restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in advance,
>>>>> instead of getting blindsided at the last minute by it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -hh
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We ate in that same D'Orsey restaurant. Much nicer than the small
>>>> snack bar on the ground floor.
>>>>
>>>> I think the onboard AMA experience is every bit as good as Viking.
>>>> But their excursions are better and the cabins a bit larger. My take
>>>> is that Viking has become so big that with multiple ships in a port
>>>> as seemed to happen frequently they have issues with smaller places
>>>> some of the AMA excursions we liked. Example - the small music
>>>> museum at Rudesheim. I also remember that the guides were better and
>>>> we had more free time in port.
>>>
>>> FWIW, some of this also depends on which river you're on, as the
>>> ships on the Rhine have grown in size which limits where they can dock.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I just today watched a YouTube on touring France that may change my
>>>> mind a bit about next year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RdNGT1jz8
>>>
>>> [rearraging]
>>>
>>>  > We have done 2 weeks in Normandy/Brittany and about the same in Paris
>>>  > plus 2 trips that took us to the south coast. Time to branch out.
>>>  > Massif Central, Loire Valley and Alsace are high on my list.
>>>
>>> Yes, there's a huge number of regions in France that US tourists are
>>> utterly unaware of.  There's some pretty wild scenery/canyons
>>> someplace that I can't recall at the moment.  I think I could easily
>>> do 5-6 trips, not too much unlike we've already done in Germany.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Taking the TGV to a city then renting the car if you need it could
>>>> be a lot of fun, even if a bit more expensive. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> We used the TGV to go from Paris (Gare de l’Est) to Colmar/Strasbourg
>>> (near the Rhine) in 2022:  it was straightforward, pretty easy, and
>>> quite fast city to city:  Strasbourg's just 1:45.  I've also used the
>>> Brussels to Paris "Thales" express too; IIRC, its just ~90 minutes or
>>> so as well.
>>>
>>> For Colmar, the train station's not super-central, so it was an easy
>>> 4-5 block walk pulling our bags.  Once there, there was one day where
>>> it would have been good to have had a car, but it was also good to
>>> not have to worry about parking a car the rest of the time.  The 'car
>>> day' was a trip out of Colmar to an outlying village of Eguisheim,
>>> which is known for the Church of Saint Peter and Saint Paul (a 13C
>>> chapel) and several Alsatian wine producers, as the shuttlebus the
>>> city offered was over capacity & ran too infrequently.  But it is
>>> just as well though, as many of the Eguisheim visitors were loading
>>> up their cars with cases of wines to drive home; carting away a lot
>>> isn't really an option when flying.
>>>
>>>
>>> -hh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You should have gone to this gem too: https://riquewihr.fr/fr/ or
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riquewihr
>>
>> Just 7 miles east of Colmar. Very small and great wines. I just
>> ordered a case of Riesling from a small winery we know there. Shipping
>> was a lot more than the wine!
>
> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also visited
> Srasbourg too.
>
> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region; I
> think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of self-driving
> routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic conclusion is that if one
> wants to get to such small villages, it is better done with a rental car
> than by mass transit as we had done.
>
>
> -hh
>
>

On 9/30/24 2:00 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
> On 9/6/2024 1:07 PM, -hh wrote:
>> On 9/6/24 11:12 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>> On 9/1/2024 10:27 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>> On 8/31/24 5:13 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That happens.  On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both
>>>>>> caught some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was
>>>>>> unpleasant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel.
>>>>>>> Given it was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the
>>>>>>> train/Metro and a lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us
>>>>>>> as we arrived several days before the Viking tour started.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before
>>>>>> considering your later comment about your travel companion's lower
>>>>>> physical shape.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other
>>>>>>> spots, and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are
>>>>>>> not in the best physical shape and that limited our options. We
>>>>>>> traveled by Metro, Uber, taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by
>>>>>>> the Notre Dame crypt, Montmarte and Musee D'Orsay.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan
>>>>>> taking a lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock face.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain and poor
>>>>>>> visibility, but at that point we had no other options for another
>>>>>>> day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets closed
>>>>>>> and the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and blocked off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery
>>>>>>> we arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board,
>>>>>>> visited some Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A
>>>>>>> WWII buff, I was amazed the the Allies ever made it across the
>>>>>>> part of Moselle valley we saw.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel
>>>>>> crossings, somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall
>>>>>> correctly.  I understand that the river looks somewhat different
>>>>>> today, as the dam system for ship navigation has changed over the
>>>>>> decades (less current; possibly slightly higher average water
>>>>>> levels too).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
>>>>>>> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises
>>>>>>> they are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a
>>>>>>> "technical issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and the
>>>>>>> food and crew service was very good, but not great. We also had a
>>>>>>> few tour guides that did not speak great English. My wife had to
>>>>>>> assist one with translating the excellent French of a local
>>>>>>> vineyard owner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU, but
>>>>>> we've had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways.  One
>>>>>> trade- off for comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY
>>>>>> laundry onboard (helps lighten the bags) but AMA had better wines
>>>>>> & wine stewards at dinner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an
>>>>>>> unplanned stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues
>>>>>>> for the schedule.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was very
>>>>>>> well done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured that
>>>>>>> city center for a day and a half by tram with a lake boat ride
>>>>>>> thrown in, and had a great meal on the last evening. Jolly good fun.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back
>>>>>> to in Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot for
>>>>>> Rösti.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west of
>>>>>>> the lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for our
>>>>>>> dinner the tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was
>>>>>>> announced that there had been an accident ahead involving a tram
>>>>>>> and car. Line 4 was being delayed and diverted. Almost all the
>>>>>>> passengers left the tram. Two young locals offered to show us how
>>>>>>> to get to our destination. We followed their instructions and
>>>>>>> arrived via a different route with minimal delay. Could have
>>>>>>> figured that out ourselves but their assistance was very helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Things like that happen.  Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed
>>>>>> such as heading to the airport for a departure flight.  Have had
>>>>>> that happen with a train issue in Belgium.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience
>>>>>>> the 787 for the first time too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757
>>>>>> version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via
>>>>>>> rental car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we
>>>>>>> have not seen. And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not
>>>>>>> an issue for them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well:
>>>>>> several different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche,
>>>>>> Bordeaux, Chateaus, etc).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of
>>>>>> Bourges, as there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to
>>>>>> Notre Dame (but without crowds), plus an evening walk through its
>>>>>> old timbered houses section is nice: tastefully lit.  A single
>>>>>> overnight is adequate; figure it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive due
>>>>>> south of Paris.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk
>>>>>> of age restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in advance,
>>>>>> instead of getting blindsided at the last minute by it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We ate in that same D'Orsey restaurant. Much nicer than the small
>>>>> snack bar on the ground floor.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the onboard AMA experience is every bit as good as Viking.
>>>>> But their excursions are better and the cabins a bit larger. My
>>>>> take is that Viking has become so big that with multiple ships in a
>>>>> port as seemed to happen frequently they have issues with smaller
>>>>> places some of the AMA excursions we liked. Example - the small
>>>>> music museum at Rudesheim. I also remember that the guides were
>>>>> better and we had more free time in port.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, some of this also depends on which river you're on, as the
>>>> ships on the Rhine have grown in size which limits where they can dock.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I just today watched a YouTube on touring France that may change my
>>>>> mind a bit about next year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?
>>>>> v=d8RdNGT1jz8
>>>>
>>>> [rearraging]
>>>>
>>>>  > We have done 2 weeks in Normandy/Brittany and about the same in
>>>> Paris
>>>>  > plus 2 trips that took us to the south coast. Time to branch out.
>>>>  > Massif Central, Loire Valley and Alsace are high on my list.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there's a huge number of regions in France that US tourists are
>>>> utterly unaware of.  There's some pretty wild scenery/canyons
>>>> someplace that I can't recall at the moment.  I think I could easily
>>>> do 5-6 trips, not too much unlike we've already done in Germany.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Taking the TGV to a city then renting the car if you need it could
>>>>> be a lot of fun, even if a bit more expensive. Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> We used the TGV to go from Paris (Gare de l’Est) to Colmar/
>>>> Strasbourg (near the Rhine) in 2022:  it was straightforward, pretty
>>>> easy, and quite fast city to city:  Strasbourg's just 1:45.  I've
>>>> also used the Brussels to Paris "Thales" express too; IIRC, its just
>>>> ~90 minutes or so as well.
>>>>
>>>> For Colmar, the train station's not super-central, so it was an easy
>>>> 4-5 block walk pulling our bags.  Once there, there was one day
>>>> where it would have been good to have had a car, but it was also
>>>> good to not have to worry about parking a car the rest of the time.
>>>> The 'car day' was a trip out of Colmar to an outlying village of
>>>> Eguisheim, which is known for the Church of Saint Peter and Saint
>>>> Paul (a 13C chapel) and several Alsatian wine producers, as the
>>>> shuttlebus the city offered was over capacity & ran too
>>>> infrequently.  But it is just as well though, as many of the
>>>> Eguisheim visitors were loading up their cars with cases of wines to
>>>> drive home; carting away a lot isn't really an option when flying.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -hh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You should have gone to this gem too: https://riquewihr.fr/fr/ or
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riquewihr
>>>
>>> Just 7 miles east of Colmar. Very small and great wines. I just
>>> ordered a case of Riesling from a small winery we know there.
>>> Shipping was a lot more than the wine!
>>
>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also visited
>> Srasbourg too.
>>
>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region; I
>> think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of self-
>> driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic conclusion is
>> that if one wants to get to such small villages, it is better done
>> with a rental car than by mass transit as we had done.
>>
>>
>> -hh
>>
>>
>
> The case arrived Saturday. It was shipped by a local wine merchant. I'm
> guessing the vineyard/store owner just put the case together and paid a
> friend who does this more often to send it via FedEx. It was clearly
> labeled as wine, but I did not get an itemized receipt.
>
> That shop's Riesling is incredible. Smooth and with a pleasing mineral
> finish. Great with seafood.
>

On 2024-09-30 14:19, -hh wrote:
> On 9/30/24 2:00 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>> On 9/6/2024 1:07 PM, -hh wrote:
>>> On 9/6/24 11:12 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/2024 10:27 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>>> On 8/31/24 5:13 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That happens.  On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both
>>>>>>> caught some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was
>>>>>>> unpleasant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel.
>>>>>>>> Given it was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the
>>>>>>>> train/Metro and a lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us
>>>>>>>> as we arrived several days before the Viking tour started.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before
>>>>>>> considering your later comment about your travel companion's
>>>>>>> lower physical shape.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other
>>>>>>>> spots, and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are
>>>>>>>> not in the best physical shape and that limited our options. We
>>>>>>>> traveled by Metro, Uber, taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by
>>>>>>>> the Notre Dame crypt, Montmarte and Musee D'Orsay.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan
>>>>>>> taking a lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock face.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain and poor
>>>>>>>> visibility, but at that point we had no other options for
>>>>>>>> another day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets
>>>>>>>> closed and the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and
>>>>>>>> blocked off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American cemetery
>>>>>>>> we arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on board,
>>>>>>>> visited some Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and France. A
>>>>>>>> WWII buff, I was amazed the the Allies ever made it across the
>>>>>>>> part of Moselle valley we saw.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel
>>>>>>> crossings, somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall
>>>>>>> correctly.  I understand that the river looks somewhat different
>>>>>>> today, as the dam system for ship navigation has changed over the
>>>>>>> decades (less current; possibly slightly higher average water
>>>>>>> levels too).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
>>>>>>>> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river cruises
>>>>>>>> they are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on day 1 a
>>>>>>>> "technical issue" delay caused us to miss our first stop, and
>>>>>>>> the food and crew service was very good, but not great. We also
>>>>>>>> had a few tour guides that did not speak great English. My wife
>>>>>>>> had to assist one with translating the excellent French of a
>>>>>>>> local vineyard owner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU, but
>>>>>>> we've had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways.  One
>>>>>>> trade- off for comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY
>>>>>>> laundry onboard (helps lighten the bags) but AMA had better wines
>>>>>>> & wine stewards at dinner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an
>>>>>>>> unplanned stop. It was handled well and did not cause any issues
>>>>>>>> for the schedule.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was
>>>>>>>> very well done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured
>>>>>>>> that city center for a day and a half by tram with a lake boat
>>>>>>>> ride thrown in, and had a great meal on the last evening. Jolly
>>>>>>>> good fun.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back
>>>>>>> to in Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot for
>>>>>>> Rösti.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west
>>>>>>>> of the lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for
>>>>>>>> our dinner the tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was
>>>>>>>> announced that there had been an accident ahead involving a tram
>>>>>>>> and car. Line 4 was being delayed and diverted. Almost all the
>>>>>>>> passengers left the tram. Two young locals offered to show us
>>>>>>>> how to get to our destination. We followed their instructions
>>>>>>>> and arrived via a different route with minimal delay. Could have
>>>>>>>> figured that out ourselves but their assistance was very helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Things like that happen.  Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed
>>>>>>> such as heading to the airport for a departure flight.  Have had
>>>>>>> that happen with a train issue in Belgium.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to experience
>>>>>>>> the 787 for the first time too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757
>>>>>>> version.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France via
>>>>>>>> rental car. The wife has veto power but there is a still lot we
>>>>>>>> have not seen. And Hugh, I checked with National. My age is not
>>>>>>>> an issue for them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well:
>>>>>>> several different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche,
>>>>>>> Bordeaux, Chateaus, etc).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of
>>>>>>> Bourges, as there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to
>>>>>>> Notre Dame (but without crowds), plus an evening walk through its
>>>>>>> old timbered houses section is nice: tastefully lit.  A single
>>>>>>> overnight is adequate; figure it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive due
>>>>>>> south of Paris.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk
>>>>>>> of age restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in
>>>>>>> advance, instead of getting blindsided at the last minute by it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We ate in that same D'Orsey restaurant. Much nicer than the small
>>>>>> snack bar on the ground floor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the onboard AMA experience is every bit as good as Viking.
>>>>>> But their excursions are better and the cabins a bit larger. My
>>>>>> take is that Viking has become so big that with multiple ships in
>>>>>> a port as seemed to happen frequently they have issues with
>>>>>> smaller places some of the AMA excursions we liked. Example - the
>>>>>> small music museum at Rudesheim. I also remember that the guides
>>>>>> were better and we had more free time in port.
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW, some of this also depends on which river you're on, as the
>>>>> ships on the Rhine have grown in size which limits where they can
>>>>> dock.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I just today watched a YouTube on touring France that may change
>>>>>> my mind a bit about next year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?
>>>>>> v=d8RdNGT1jz8
>>>>>
>>>>> [rearraging]
>>>>>
>>>>>  > We have done 2 weeks in Normandy/Brittany and about the same in
>>>>> Paris
>>>>>  > plus 2 trips that took us to the south coast. Time to branch out.
>>>>>  > Massif Central, Loire Valley and Alsace are high on my list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, there's a huge number of regions in France that US tourists
>>>>> are utterly unaware of.  There's some pretty wild scenery/canyons
>>>>> someplace that I can't recall at the moment.  I think I could
>>>>> easily do 5-6 trips, not too much unlike we've already done in
>>>>> Germany.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Taking the TGV to a city then renting the car if you need it could
>>>>>> be a lot of fun, even if a bit more expensive. Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> We used the TGV to go from Paris (Gare de l’Est) to Colmar/
>>>>> Strasbourg (near the Rhine) in 2022:  it was straightforward,
>>>>> pretty easy, and quite fast city to city:  Strasbourg's just 1:45.
>>>>> I've also used the Brussels to Paris "Thales" express too; IIRC,
>>>>> its just ~90 minutes or so as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> For Colmar, the train station's not super-central, so it was an
>>>>> easy 4-5 block walk pulling our bags.  Once there, there was one
>>>>> day where it would have been good to have had a car, but it was
>>>>> also good to not have to worry about parking a car the rest of the
>>>>> time. The 'car day' was a trip out of Colmar to an outlying village
>>>>> of Eguisheim, which is known for the Church of Saint Peter and
>>>>> Saint Paul (a 13C chapel) and several Alsatian wine producers, as
>>>>> the shuttlebus the city offered was over capacity & ran too
>>>>> infrequently.  But it is just as well though, as many of the
>>>>> Eguisheim visitors were loading up their cars with cases of wines
>>>>> to drive home; carting away a lot isn't really an option when flying.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -hh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You should have gone to this gem too: https://riquewihr.fr/fr/ or
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riquewihr
>>>>
>>>> Just 7 miles east of Colmar. Very small and great wines. I just
>>>> ordered a case of Riesling from a small winery we know there.
>>>> Shipping was a lot more than the wine!
>>>
>>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also visited
>>> Srasbourg too.
>>>
>>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region; I
>>> think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of self-
>>> driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic conclusion is
>>> that if one wants to get to such small villages, it is better done
>>> with a rental car than by mass transit as we had done.
>>>
>>>
>>> -hh
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The case arrived Saturday. It was shipped by a local wine merchant.
>> I'm guessing the vineyard/store owner just put the case together and
>> paid a friend who does this more often to send it via FedEx. It was
>> clearly labeled as wine, but I did not get an itemized receipt.
>>
>> That shop's Riesling is incredible. Smooth and with a pleasing mineral
>> finish. Great with seafood.
>>
>
> There's a lot of quite pleasant Rieslings out there.  Because they're
> also a young wine, they're rarely expensive (often "close to downright
> cheap") until you start to look for Spatlese & Auslese variants.
>
> FYI, for a dessert Riesling, instead an Eiswein, consider trying the
> often obscure and slightly less super-sweet Beerenauslese.  Some folks
> find the Eiswein to be too sweet, so this a good alternative, plus
> they're less expensive from the same vintner.  Can be hard to find in
> the USA, though.
On the subject of dessert wines, if you haven't had the opportunity yet,
go mad and buy a bottle of Chateau D'Yquem some time. I've had the
chance to enjoy it two or three times in my life and there is a bottle
in my refrigerator waiting for the right occasion to enjoy it again.

On 9/30/24 5:48 PM, Alan wrote:
> On 2024-09-30 14:19, -hh wrote:
>> On 9/30/24 2:00 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>> On 9/6/2024 1:07 PM, -hh wrote:
>>>> On 9/6/24 11:12 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>> On 9/1/2024 10:27 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/31/24 5:13 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:38 AM, -hh wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/30/24 9:15 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>>>>> To sum it up, fun but not as much as we thought it might be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That happens.  On our own last trans-Atlantic outing, we both
>>>>>>>> caught some sort of not-CoVid bug around ten days in, which was
>>>>>>>> unpleasant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arriving Paris on time we elected to take a taxi to the hotel.
>>>>>>>>> Given it was 4 of us the taxi was not that much more than the
>>>>>>>>> train/Metro and a lot less hassle. The hotel transfer was on us
>>>>>>>>> as we arrived several days before the Viking tour started.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Price break on four makes it worth doing AFAIC, even before
>>>>>>>> considering your later comment about your travel companion's
>>>>>>>> lower physical shape.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Took our friends to see some museums, the tower level 3, other
>>>>>>>>> spots, and had some incredible meals. However, the friends are
>>>>>>>>> not in the best physical shape and that limited our options. We
>>>>>>>>> traveled by Metro, Uber, taxi and RATP. They were fascinated by
>>>>>>>>> the Notre Dame crypt, Montmarte and Musee D'Orsay.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've really enjoyed the Orsay; its also a nice place to plan
>>>>>>>> taking a lunch break, in the cafe that's "inside" of the clock
>>>>>>>> face.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The tower experience was slightly compromised by rain and poor
>>>>>>>>> visibility, but at that point we had no other options for
>>>>>>>>> another day. The just-concluded Olympic games had a few streets
>>>>>>>>> closed and the Champ de Mars still occupied by venues and
>>>>>>>>> blocked off.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Leaving Paris by Viking bus via the Luxembourg American
>>>>>>>>> cemetery we arrived the Viking ship at Trier. Spent a week+ on
>>>>>>>>> board, visited some Moselle/Rhine River towns in Germany and
>>>>>>>>> France. A WWII buff, I was amazed the the Allies ever made it
>>>>>>>>> across the part of Moselle valley we saw.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I learned awhile back that my father did one of those Mosel
>>>>>>>> crossings, somewhat proximate to the town of Zell, if I recall
>>>>>>>> correctly.  I understand that the river looks somewhat different
>>>>>>>> today, as the dam system for ship navigation has changed over
>>>>>>>> the decades (less current; possibly slightly higher average
>>>>>>>> water levels too).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Viking's U.S. marketing portrays the company's river cruises as
>>>>>>>>> exceptional. In our experience with prior European river
>>>>>>>>> cruises they are not. The ship needed some cosmetic refurb, on
>>>>>>>>> day 1 a "technical issue" delay caused us to miss our first
>>>>>>>>> stop, and the food and crew service was very good, but not
>>>>>>>>> great. We also had a few tour guides that did not speak great
>>>>>>>>> English. My wife had to assist one with translating the
>>>>>>>>> excellent French of a local vineyard owner.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't recall the details why we skipped using Viking in EU,
>>>>>>>> but we've had good success with Uniworld and AMA Waterways.  One
>>>>>>>> trade- off for comparing these two is that Uniworld had free DIY
>>>>>>>> laundry onboard (helps lighten the bags) but AMA had better
>>>>>>>> wines & wine stewards at dinner.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On the other hand we had a medical emergency that led to an
>>>>>>>>> unplanned stop. It was handled well and did not cause any
>>>>>>>>> issues for the schedule.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arriving Basel we did the ship's included city tour that was
>>>>>>>>> very well done. That afternoon we departed for Zurich, toured
>>>>>>>>> that city center for a day and a half by tram with a lake boat
>>>>>>>>> ride thrown in, and had a great meal on the last evening. Jolly
>>>>>>>>> good fun.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's a traditional swiss restaurant that I'd like to get back
>>>>>>>> to in Zurich, IIRC, not far from the Fraümunster: a good spot
>>>>>>>> for Rösti.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Had a bit of a tram experience. The hotel was a few miles west
>>>>>>>>> of the lake and city center. Departing the hotel on line 4 for
>>>>>>>>> our dinner the tram stopped after about 10 minutes and it was
>>>>>>>>> announced that there had been an accident ahead involving a
>>>>>>>>> tram and car. Line 4 was being delayed and diverted. Almost all
>>>>>>>>> the passengers left the tram. Two young locals offered to show
>>>>>>>>> us how to get to our destination. We followed their
>>>>>>>>> instructions and arrived via a different route with minimal
>>>>>>>>> delay. Could have figured that out ourselves but their
>>>>>>>>> assistance was very helpful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Things like that happen.  Fortunately, you weren't time-stressed
>>>>>>>> such as heading to the airport for a departure flight.  Have had
>>>>>>>> that happen with a train issue in Belgium.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Flights back through Philly were both on time. Got to
>>>>>>>>> experience the 787 for the first time too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IIRC, the 787's Polaris is a bit more roomy than on their 757
>>>>>>>> version.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Next year? I'm voting for 2 weeks in southern/western France
>>>>>>>>> via rental car. The wife has veto power but there is a still
>>>>>>>>> lot we have not seen. And Hugh, I checked with National. My age
>>>>>>>>> is not an issue for them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Been meaning to get around to a "drive around" in FR as well:
>>>>>>>> several different directions though (Normandy, Mont-Saint-Miche,
>>>>>>>> Bordeaux, Chateaus, etc).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Plus one probably unknown to Americans sight is the city of
>>>>>>>> Bourges, as there's a huge cathedral there that gets compared to
>>>>>>>> Notre Dame (but without crowds), plus an evening walk through
>>>>>>>> its old timbered houses section is nice: tastefully lit.  A
>>>>>>>> single overnight is adequate; figure it as 3.5+hrs (175mi) drive
>>>>>>>> due south of Paris.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And on the rental car, the important thing here is that the risk
>>>>>>>> of age restrictions is now on your checklist to verify in
>>>>>>>> advance, instead of getting blindsided at the last minute by it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We ate in that same D'Orsey restaurant. Much nicer than the small
>>>>>>> snack bar on the ground floor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the onboard AMA experience is every bit as good as
>>>>>>> Viking. But their excursions are better and the cabins a bit
>>>>>>> larger. My take is that Viking has become so big that with
>>>>>>> multiple ships in a port as seemed to happen frequently they have
>>>>>>> issues with smaller places some of the AMA excursions we liked.
>>>>>>> Example - the small music museum at Rudesheim. I also remember
>>>>>>> that the guides were better and we had more free time in port.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW, some of this also depends on which river you're on, as the
>>>>>> ships on the Rhine have grown in size which limits where they can
>>>>>> dock.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just today watched a YouTube on touring France that may change
>>>>>>> my mind a bit about next year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?
>>>>>>> v=d8RdNGT1jz8
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [rearraging]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  > We have done 2 weeks in Normandy/Brittany and about the same in
>>>>>> Paris
>>>>>>  > plus 2 trips that took us to the south coast. Time to branch out.
>>>>>>  > Massif Central, Loire Valley and Alsace are high on my list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, there's a huge number of regions in France that US tourists
>>>>>> are utterly unaware of.  There's some pretty wild scenery/canyons
>>>>>> someplace that I can't recall at the moment.  I think I could
>>>>>> easily do 5-6 trips, not too much unlike we've already done in
>>>>>> Germany.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Taking the TGV to a city then renting the car if you need it
>>>>>>> could be a lot of fun, even if a bit more expensive. Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We used the TGV to go from Paris (Gare de l’Est) to Colmar/
>>>>>> Strasbourg (near the Rhine) in 2022:  it was straightforward,
>>>>>> pretty easy, and quite fast city to city:  Strasbourg's just 1:45.
>>>>>> I've also used the Brussels to Paris "Thales" express too; IIRC,
>>>>>> its just ~90 minutes or so as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For Colmar, the train station's not super-central, so it was an
>>>>>> easy 4-5 block walk pulling our bags.  Once there, there was one
>>>>>> day where it would have been good to have had a car, but it was
>>>>>> also good to not have to worry about parking a car the rest of the
>>>>>> time. The 'car day' was a trip out of Colmar to an outlying
>>>>>> village of Eguisheim, which is known for the Church of Saint Peter
>>>>>> and Saint Paul (a 13C chapel) and several Alsatian wine producers,
>>>>>> as the shuttlebus the city offered was over capacity & ran too
>>>>>> infrequently.  But it is just as well though, as many of the
>>>>>> Eguisheim visitors were loading up their cars with cases of wines
>>>>>> to drive home; carting away a lot isn't really an option when flying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You should have gone to this gem too: https://riquewihr.fr/fr/ or
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riquewihr
>>>>>
>>>>> Just 7 miles east of Colmar. Very small and great wines. I just
>>>>> ordered a case of Riesling from a small winery we know there.
>>>>> Shipping was a lot more than the wine!
>>>>
>>>> Riquewihr is similar and was the either/or choice, as we also
>>>> visited Srasbourg too.
>>>>
>>>> There's a lot of such small towns w/wineries in the Alsace region; I
>>>> think we have a Karen Brown guidebook which has a couple of self-
>>>> driving routes that's on the "to do" list .. my basic conclusion is
>>>> that if one wants to get to such small villages, it is better done
>>>> with a rental car than by mass transit as we had done.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The case arrived Saturday. It was shipped by a local wine merchant.
>>> I'm guessing the vineyard/store owner just put the case together and
>>> paid a friend who does this more often to send it via FedEx. It was
>>> clearly labeled as wine, but I did not get an itemized receipt.
>>>
>>> That shop's Riesling is incredible. Smooth and with a pleasing
>>> mineral finish. Great with seafood.
>>>
>>
>> There's a lot of quite pleasant Rieslings out there.  Because they're
>> also a young wine, they're rarely expensive (often "close to downright
>> cheap") until you start to look for Spatlese & Auslese variants.
>>
>> FYI, for a dessert Riesling, instead an Eiswein, consider trying the
>> often obscure and slightly less super-sweet Beerenauslese.  Some folks
>> find the Eiswein to be too sweet, so this a good alternative, plus
>> they're less expensive from the same vintner.  Can be hard to find in
>> the USA, though.
>
> On the subject of dessert wines, if you haven't had the opportunity yet,
> go mad and buy a bottle of Chateau D'Yquem some time. I've had the
> chance to enjoy it two or three times in my life and there is a bottle
> in my refrigerator waiting for the right occasion to enjoy it again.
>
> Very sweet, but also amazingly complex.

On 2024-09-30 15:59, -hh wrote:
>>> FYI, for a dessert Riesling, instead an Eiswein, consider trying the
>>> often obscure and slightly less super-sweet Beerenauslese.  Some
>>> folks find the Eiswein to be too sweet, so this a good alternative,
>>> plus they're less expensive from the same vintner.  Can be hard to
>>> find in the USA, though.
>>
>> On the subject of dessert wines, if you haven't had the opportunity
>> yet, go mad and buy a bottle of Chateau D'Yquem some time. I've had
>> the chance to enjoy it two or three times in my life and there is a
>> bottle in my refrigerator waiting for the right occasion to enjoy it
>> again.
>>
>> Very sweet, but also amazingly complex.
>
> I've enjoyed a few Sauternes here or there; I'll have to keep an eye out
> for Chateau D'Yquem.

Do it!

The price is... ...outrageous, but one time in your life, definitely
worth it.

>
> Of course, on this subject, there's also fruit infused Belgian Lambic's
> too, which functionally are "dessert beers" (unlike traditional "wild"
> yeast Lambic's):  I've found that the Kriek (cherry) and the Framboise
> (raspberry) will pair nicely with cheesecake.  In the USA, the main
> brand one will find is Lindemans ...figure $15 for a 750ml but I have
> found tiny 5oz? fourpacks for sale too, which is a nice size.
>
> FWIW, I'm still on the lookout for a coconut Lambic...but I don't know
> if that was a sweettooth or a traditional "wild".

Ahhhh... ...I'm denied most beers, now. It turns out I'm allergic to gluten.

:-(