From the guide:

Casting a spell that requires Oratory is less likely to be effective if
you switch to a class that does not have Oratory as a native class
skill. This makes classes that use Alchemy less useful than you may think.

----

Back to the drawing board. At first I thought it was just the low char.
levels, but Treon likes to backfire in big matchups where it hurts. He
easily class changes into an alchemist, but there goes your fireball.
Had a lvl 11 valkyrie with spear+2 too which will be a shame to put in
the recycle bin.

The party that killed 7 Savant Troopers in one go.

This is all for my wiz 7 game (I've got ongoing games in 6-8).

The up side is that I've got a promising Wiz 6 party. I made it to the
Toll Troll a couple days ago which is the furthest I've been since the 90s.

This is what's important:

"Party import is most enhanced by advanced items and especially weapons
in particular."

It's not about getting all your spells moved across or having your
experience decimate the landscape - that will all be leveled in time,
but like, for example, how the spear + 2 shows up in Wiz 8 as "Mystic
Spear" and is even more splendid and deadly.

It's probably a good place to stop. I'm up against a brick wall. I've
got to travel to Munkharama, Orkogre Castle etc. to get anything done.
Orkogre Castle is in a clearing in the Forest to the ...

Jhulian Waldby wrote:
> From the guide:
>
> Casting a spell that requires Oratory is less likely to be effective if
> you switch to a class that does not have Oratory as a native class
> skill.  This makes classes that use Alchemy less useful than you may think.
>
>   ----
>
> Back to the drawing board.  At first I thought it was just the low char.
> levels, but Treon likes to backfire in big matchups where it hurts.  He
> easily class changes into an alchemist, but there goes your fireball.
> Had a lvl 11 valkyrie with spear+2 too which will be a shame to put in
> the recycle bin.
>
> The party that killed 7 Savant Troopers in one go.
>
> This is all for my wiz 7 game (I've got ongoing games in 6-8).
>
> The up side is that I've got a promising Wiz 6 party.  I made it to the
> Toll Troll a couple days ago which is the furthest I've been since the 90s.
>
> This is what's important:
>
> "Party import is most enhanced by advanced items and especially weapons
> in particular."
>
> It's not about getting all your spells moved across or having your
> experience decimate the landscape - that will all be leveled in time,
> but like, for example, how the spear + 2 shows up in Wiz 8 as "Mystic
> Spear" and is even more splendid and deadly.
>
> It's probably a good place to stop.  I'm up against a brick wall.  I've
> got to travel to Munkharama, Orkogre Castle etc. to get anything done.
> Orkogre Castle is in a clearing in the Forest to the ...

It turns out I don't have to throw that game away. Treon is a lvl 9
alchemist and it's reasonable enough to class change him now into a
psionic, which resumes the Oratory usage. You can't tell what you've
got until it's in the recycle bin. BTW that seems to be the pattern
with the pre-generated characters, groomed characters that slide into
stats for better classes.

By better - I consider a samurai better than a fighter and so on and so
forth.

On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 19:55:32 -0600, Jhulian Waldby
<wichitajayhawks@msn.com> wrote:

>By better - I consider a samurai better than a fighter and so on and so
>forth.

I have now played Wiz 1,2, 3 and 5. I only played Wiz 4 briefly before
dumping it. Other then a thief to a ninja (which I ended up
regretting), I never class changed and I am hoping I won't have to in
Wiz 6 either. I can't identify with my characters when every character
in my party can do everything.

Mike S. wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 19:55:32 -0600, Jhulian Waldby
> <wichitajayhawks@msn.com> wrote:
>
>> By better - I consider a samurai better than a fighter and so on and so
>> forth.
>
> I have now played Wiz 1,2, 3 and 5. I only played Wiz 4 briefly before
> dumping it. Other then a thief to a ninja (which I ended up
> regretting), I never class changed and I am hoping I won't have to in
> Wiz 6 either. I can't identify with my characters when every character
> in my party can do everything.
>
One of the things I did this time around in Wiz 6 was to get rid of the
dedicated thief. While a thief can produce damage near to a fighter
type or ranger, they have poor AC and HP. My rolled party included a
Ninja and a Ranger. The Ranger became the best skullduggery and was
sufficient to the task of unlocking castle doors. Trapped chests are
still a circus, however, but manageable through save/reload.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 08:45:51 -0600, Jhulian Waldby
<wichitajayhawks@msn.com> wrote:

>One of the things I did this time around in Wiz 6 was to get rid of the
>dedicated thief. While a thief can produce damage near to a fighter
>type or ranger, they have poor AC and HP. My rolled party included a
>Ninja and a Ranger. The Ranger became the best skullduggery and was
>sufficient to the task of unlocking castle doors. Trapped chests are
>still a circus, however, but manageable through save/reload.

This is why I regretted getting rid of my thief in the earlier
Wizardries. They pick locks better then Ninjas. I hated winning a
battle only to have my party blown to smithereens because of the loot.

Mike S. wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 08:45:51 -0600, Jhulian Waldby
> <wichitajayhawks@msn.com> wrote:
>
>> One of the things I did this time around in Wiz 6 was to get rid of the
>> dedicated thief. While a thief can produce damage near to a fighter
>> type or ranger, they have poor AC and HP. My rolled party included a
>> Ninja and a Ranger. The Ranger became the best skullduggery and was
>> sufficient to the task of unlocking castle doors. Trapped chests are
>> still a circus, however, but manageable through save/reload.
>
> This is why I regretted getting rid of my thief in the earlier
> Wizardries. They pick locks better then Ninjas. I hated winning a
> battle only to have my party blown to smithereens because of the loot.
>
Oh, I think you will like Wiz 6 then. Chests are separate from
encounters. When the battle's over, it's over.

Jhulian Waldby wrote:
> Mike S. wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 08:45:51 -0600, Jhulian Waldby
>> <wichitajayhawks@msn.com> wrote:
>>
>>> One of the things I did this time around in Wiz 6 was to get rid of the
>>> dedicated thief.  While a thief can produce damage near to a fighter
>>> type or ranger, they have poor AC and HP.  My rolled party included a
>>> Ninja and a Ranger.  The Ranger became the best skullduggery and was
>>> sufficient to the task of unlocking castle doors.  Trapped chests are
>>> still a circus, however, but manageable through save/reload.
>>
>> This is why I regretted getting rid of my thief in the earlier
>> Wizardries. They pick locks better then Ninjas. I hated winning a
>> battle only to have my party blown to smithereens because of the loot.
>>
> Oh, I think you will like Wiz 6 then.  Chests are separate from
> encounters.  When the battle's over, it's over.

Additionally, when one class changes in Wiz 6, all the skill points are
residual. If you get your thief to 100 skullduggery and then change to
ninja, the ninja will retain the 100 points in skullduggery. In the
earlier Wizardries it was all stats that produced a percentage number
for disarm, so that a ninja who used to be a thief was losing a good
deal of lockpicking ability due to the percentage formula.

I'm doing this presently in wiz 7, thief -> bard. Having the
lockpicking at maximum already when taking on bard means that he can put
all the points into Music, which usually conflicts by being in the same
category as lockpicking.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 18:30:05 -0600, Jhulian Waldby
<wichitajayhawks@msn.com> wrote:

>Oh, I think you will like Wiz 6 then. Chests are separate from
>encounters. When the battle's over, it's over.

I did not know that. That is interesting.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 20:09:42 -0600, Jhulian Waldby
<wichitajayhawks@msn.com> wrote:

>Additionally, when one class changes in Wiz 6, all the skill points are
>residual. If you get your thief to 100 skullduggery and then change to
>ninja, the ninja will retain the 100 points in skullduggery. In the
>earlier Wizardries it was all stats that produced a percentage number
>for disarm, so that a ninja who used to be a thief was losing a good
>deal of lockpicking ability due to the percentage formula.

More good info. I did not know this either about Wiz 6. It is actually
making me rethink my whole thief before ninja idea. Thank you.

>I'm doing this presently in wiz 7, thief -> bard. Having the
>lockpicking at maximum already when taking on bard means that he can put
>all the points into Music, which usually conflicts by being in the same
>category as lockpicking.

I did play Wiz 7 for a bit when I was a kid and I do remember some
skills conflicting because I wanted both but they were in the same
category. Your thief to bard idea sounds like a good plan to me.

Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote:
>I have now played Wiz 1,2, 3 and 5. I only played Wiz 4 briefly before
>dumping it. Other then a thief to a ninja (which I ended up
>regretting), I never class changed and I am hoping I won't have to in
>Wiz 6 either. I can't identify with my characters when every character
>in my party can do everything.

I don't really remember Wizardry 6 that well, but it has a similar if
not identical system to Wizardry 7. In that game class changing was
seen as a way of raising a characters skills faster rather than a way
of creating jack-of-all-trades characters. I believe most strategies
just bounced between a couple of classes.

Personally though I didn't like switching classes that much, and would
only normally only do it once at a point that mimimized the loss caused
by attributes resetting to their new minimums. Maybe more often then
that for spell casters in order to get more spells.

Changing classes too often could actually hurt in the end game where the
the most powerful skill becomes kirijutsu, which less you instantly kill
monsters. The biggest factor determining success of this skill isn't
wasn't the level of the skill but difference between the character's
level and monster's level.

You mentioned in another post about switching from Thief to Bard, but be
careful with this. If a character starts off a Bard, then that character
starts with a musical instrument, but if you switch classes to Bard your
character don't automatically get one. (Reading up on it, in Wizardry 6
Bard's start off with a lyre, which casts Sleep, making it very useful,
and this may be the only way to acquire one.)

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:12:23 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
(Ross Ridge) wrote:

>You mentioned in another post about switching from Thief to Bard, but be
>careful with this. If a character starts off a Bard, then that character
>starts with a musical instrument, but if you switch classes to Bard your
>character don't automatically get one. (Reading up on it, in Wizardry 6
>Bard's start off with a lyre, which casts Sleep, making it very useful,
>and this may be the only way to acquire one.)

I am glad you mentioned this. I vaguely remember reading awhile back
that instruments for bards are very rare in Wiz 6 and so you will want
to start with a Bard rather then switch to one. Thank you.

Ross Ridge wrote:
> Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> I have now played Wiz 1,2, 3 and 5. I only played Wiz 4 briefly before
>> dumping it. Other then a thief to a ninja (which I ended up
>> regretting), I never class changed and I am hoping I won't have to in
>> Wiz 6 either. I can't identify with my characters when every character
>> in my party can do everything.
>
> I don't really remember Wizardry 6 that well, but it has a similar if
> not identical system to Wizardry 7. In that game class changing was
> seen as a way of raising a characters skills faster rather than a way
> of creating jack-of-all-trades characters. I believe most strategies
> just bounced between a couple of classes.
>
> Personally though I didn't like switching classes that much, and would
> only normally only do it once at a point that mimimized the loss caused
> by attributes resetting to their new minimums. Maybe more often then
> that for spell casters in order to get more spells.
>
> Changing classes too often could actually hurt in the end game where the
> the most powerful skill becomes kirijutsu, which less you instantly kill
> monsters. The biggest factor determining success of this skill isn't
> wasn't the level of the skill but difference between the character's
> level and monster's level.

Right, the detrimental factor here is that class-changed characters are
going to be at lower character levels because they've had to gain over
two or more professions.

I'm not sure what you said about bouncing, however. Going 1-10 as mage
and then going 1-10 as mage after an in-between class change will see a
character gaining 10 levels in a row without a single stat/skill/spell
increase. It could be done to some unforeseen benefit, but time is
money. Even more so with D'Rang T'Rang still out making trax.

Mike S. wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:12:23 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
> (Ross Ridge) wrote:
>
>> You mentioned in another post about switching from Thief to Bard, but be
>> careful with this. If a character starts off a Bard, then that character
>> starts with a musical instrument, but if you switch classes to Bard your
>> character don't automatically get one. (Reading up on it, in Wizardry 6
>> Bard's start off with a lyre, which casts Sleep, making it very useful,
>> and this may be the only way to acquire one.)
>
> I am glad you mentioned this. I vaguely remember reading awhile back
> that instruments for bards are very rare in Wiz 6 and so you will want
> to start with a Bard rather then switch to one. Thank you.
>
Bards are enigmatic. I wish I had more documentation on them. They are
apt at missile weapons, but I don't know how much of this is by design
or just where the numbers ended up. In Wiz 8 they become more powerful
because they can gain spells in the Wizardry skill. Also, there's a
musical instrument sitting around in the Monastery.

I think the error here is assuming Sleep is better than some of the
other flavors. In Wiz 7 I have ample casters of Sleep.

Jhulian Waldby wrote:
> Ross Ridge wrote:
>> Mike S.  <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> I have now played Wiz 1,2, 3 and 5. I only played Wiz 4 briefly before
>>> dumping it. Other then a thief to a ninja (which I ended up
>>> regretting), I never class changed and I am hoping I won't have to in
>>> Wiz 6 either. I can't identify with my characters when every character
>>> in my party can do everything.
>>
>> I don't really remember Wizardry 6 that well, but it has a similar if
>> not identical system to Wizardry 7.  In that game class changing was
>> seen as a way of raising a characters skills faster rather than a way
>> of creating jack-of-all-trades characters.  I believe most strategies
>> just bounced between a couple of classes.
>>
>> Personally though I didn't like switching classes that much, and would
>> only normally only do it once at a point that mimimized the loss caused
>> by attributes resetting to their new minimums.  Maybe more often then
>> that for spell casters in order to get more spells.
>>
>> Changing classes too often could actually hurt in the end game where the
>> the most powerful skill becomes kirijutsu, which less you instantly kill
>> monsters.  The biggest factor determining success of this skill isn't
>> wasn't the level of the skill but difference between the character's
>> level and monster's level.
>
> Right, the detrimental factor here is that class-changed characters are
> going to be at lower character levels because they've had to gain over
> two or more professions.

Class changing has clear benefits. What I'm not clear on, however, is
at what level to change classes. I heard of people getting up to lvl 27
in Crusaders of the Dark Savant. Maybe I should wait until lvl 20 or
so? There are pros and cons. At about lvl 11 most professions open up
to them. Being patient with it can get me more in the long run. I
think I'll compromise on lvl 16 for class changing.