Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
> Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> looked up from reading the entrails of the
> porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

> >On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 09:27:56 +0200, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:
> >
> >>PS: This is a highly personal opinion, and I know I am a minority with
> >>it even in this group, so do not take it personally!
> >
> >Well I never cared for Doom either and anyone here can take it as
> >personally as they would like. :)
> >
> >I don't know if it was actually a better game, but I had more fun with
> >Heretic then Doom.

> Ahh I remember ripping the "melee weapon" from Heretic and Sticking it
> in DOOM, so instead of the chainsaw you had that electric hands thing
> graphically.

> Other than that, Heretic was a bit meh.

I like classic Doom more than Heretic. Oh, I love turning others into chickens. ;)
--
"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus." --Romans 6:11. Slammy alt. BD Tues. after a catch up quiet Mon.
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On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 06:56:32 -0700, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 6/10/2024 11:41 AM, Sandro Santos wrote:

>> Trent Reznor (NIN) composed the music for Quake (my favorite game ever).

>That's about the only thing I really liked about Quake.

I didn't really like the /music/ of Quake, but I'll grant you it's
amazingly atmospheric soundtrack. It's not really the sort of thing
you listen to (or can hum along with) but it's a fascinating
accompaniant to the game itself.

Shame the game itself never really lives up to the soundtrack.
Reznor's soundtrack is moody and spooky, but the gameplay is more
suited to Doom- (or Quake2-) styled riffs.

Reznor's soundtrack is better suited for a real horror game. It's
/brooding/.

On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 06:55:11 -0700, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 6/10/2024 3:55 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 18:35:18 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>>
>>> Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 09:27:56 +0200, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:

>
>Oh man, I forgot about all those clones. All those you mention were
>great. Doom has a special place as it was the thing that really
>launched that type of play, but actual game-play wise I lied all those
>better.

There were a lot of TERRIBLE clones though. Games like "Island Peril"
and "Corridor 7". "In Pursuit of Greed" or "Shellshock". "Terminator:
Rampage" and "Zephyr" and "The Fortress of Dr. Radiaki".

So, so many bad riffs off the "Doom" formula. It wasn't that they none
of them had good ideas; many of them pushed the genre forward a little
bit. But a lot of them were just poorly designed and programmed, with
either terrible art, horrible gameplay, or horriffic optimizations.

For every "Dark Forces", there were three "Chemical Warfares". Looking
back, though, we only remember the good games and not the many, many
terrible ones.

But even with the successful games, I have a hard time saying they
were necessarily BETTER than "Doom". Most of them were "Doom... but
more". "Dark Forces" was "Doom... but in the Star Wars Universe and a
bit more story, puzzles, and 'realistic' map design." I'm not sure
that makes it BETTER than "Doom". Id's game had a purity to it (not to
mention novelty) that has stood the test of time a lot better than
many of its successors. I'm not saying "Doom" is the better title
either. Just that I've a hard time comparing them as equals.

TL;DR: I love "Doom". But I love a lot of its imitators too ;-)

On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 17:05:43 +0100, Sandro Santos
<sandro.santos@posteo.net> wrote:

>On 6/11/24 12:29, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 20:56:36 -0400, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 18:34:55 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just be sure it has good MIDI. FM MIDI sucks. ;)
>>>
>>> I may not be a fan of DOOM but I like the soundtrack. I have the
>>> Roland SC-55 midi version in my collection. I agree, FM midi sucks.
>>
>> You guys are cracking me up.
>>
>> Not sure if you realize that at least half of all the best selling
>> commercial music of the 1980s that utilized synthesizers made
>> extensive use of FM synthesis in combination with MIDI?
>>
>> (There isn't really such a thing as "FM MIDI"... Frequency Modulation
>> (FM) is the method of synthesis, and has nothing to do with the note
>> data (MIDI) that plays the sound).
>>
>> I'm assuming here what you're discussing that sucks is likely the
>> sonic characteristics of specific sound cards or devices that just
>> happened to be based on FM? Yes some of those can sound tinny but
>> that is not necessarily a characteristic of Frequency Modulation as a
>> synthesis method.
>>
>> Also, many of the warmest/richest sounding subtractive analog
>> synthesizers can do FM. This only refers to modulating one oscillator
>> with another, effectively establishing the carrier/modulator
>> relationship that FM synths are based on.
>>
>> By default and if the sound designer doesn't know what they are doing,
>> or if the signal path is crap, FM sounds can be harsh and metallic
>> sounding.
>>
>> Listen to the pad that comes in at about 11 seconds in. A Yamaha DX7
>> (FM synth) was used for this:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RUIeX6UCT8
>
>This guy synths :)
>Great post.
>I've been using FM synths for some decades (Yamaha TX7, DX21, DX7) and
>in the right hands, can sound wonderful.

Agreed, they can sound great. I don't actually own any strictly FM
synths at the moment, but I have number of synths that "can do" FM.
And I guess if I load up OPX4 on the Akai MPC (which sounds great and
has possibly one of the best interfaces for FM sound design I've
used), that technically becomes "strictly an FM synth" if nothing else
is loaded on it :)

I do have the Plogue Chipsynth OPS7 plugin (which for $50 I highly
recommend if anyone wants authentic DX7 sound in a plugin).

>Even OPL can sound great (Monkey Island, Dune 2, Tyrian, etc)
>Cheers

I played Dune 2, but honestly do not remember much about the music,
it's been a long time... the others I never played.

But if they had great music, its possible that it was written and
mixed directly on the OPL card, as opposed to composing on different
gear and then tweaking the sounds on the OPL based card to work with
the MIDI data.

At least, I find it to be a much faster workflow to decide on the
specific sounds I'm going to use up front, rather than to write chords
and melody against generic sounds and then work different sounds in
later.

Not saying the latter approach can't work too. I just find that how
sounds that might sound great by themselves play with each other is
something that's more than the sum of all parts, and it's just easier
to find the magic as early in the process as possible.

So the whole idea of "general MIDI" is to be able to just take some
MIDI data, throw it into a sound generation device and any bass line
should sound like a good bass line, same with piano/drums/brass etc.
But good sounding music isn't quite that simple, each of those sounds
has slightly different envelopes and harmonic characteristics that
don't guarantee they necessarily sound good together. And then there
can be bugs in the MIDI implementation itself that really comes out
sounding weird. Sometimes what comes out the other end sounds good,
sometimes not so much.

But given some combination of talent and patience, good sounding music
can be coerced out of even the worst sounding synths.

One of my favorite FM synths from back in the day was a TX81Z. Used
and in mint condition they still go for about what I paid for mine
back in 1989.

On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 14:34:02 -0400, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 07:29:43 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
><rstowleigh@x-nospam-x.com> wrote:
>
>>You guys are cracking me up.
>>
>>Not sure if you realize that at least half of all the best selling
>>commercial music of the 1980s that utilized synthesizers made
>>extensive use of FM synthesis in combination with MIDI?
>>
>>(There isn't really such a thing as "FM MIDI"... Frequency Modulation
>>(FM) is the method of synthesis, and has nothing to do with the note
>>data (MIDI) that plays the sound).
>>
>>I'm assuming here what you're discussing that sucks is likely the
>>sonic characteristics of specific sound cards or devices that just
>>happened to be based on FM? Yes some of those can sound tinny but
>>that is not necessarily a characteristic of Frequency Modulation as a
>>synthesis method.
>
>To me, (and I suspect to video gamers in general who played PC video
>games in the 80s and 90s) 'FM MIDI' generally refers to what you get
>on a stock SoundBlaster card... which usually sounds terrible.

See my recent response to Sandro. One reason for what you describe as
crappy sound is because a lot of times, a MIDI track is put together
with the intent of replacement with "bog standard" instruments. By
that I mean in order for it to sound even remotely like most would
expect it to, the drum sounds need to be PCM samples of real drums
that were properly mic'd. Because synthesized drums (while they can
sound great) don't typically sound like what most folks think of when
they think of drums. So the music ends up sounding dissapointing,
unless the entire track was composed around the sonic limitations and
capabilities of the synth, so that the sounds that particular synth
wants to naturally make are used to craft the track, rather than just
using the synth as a playback device.

Now, add to that the fact that some of those OPL chips only had two
operators (synths like the DX7 had six), and the operators were not
only the sound source but the building blocks of the various
algorithms needed to create certain categories of sounds, so that's a
pretty brutal limitation right off the bat. Next, add the fact that
they were relatively low-end gear compared to studio grade instruments
in the first place.

Even now, when I hear a lot of low priced synths, the sound coming out
of them just screams low-end. There is something about when costs are
cut on circuitry where lots of small, and seemingly insignificant
sacrifices are made... but the total end product of all those small
sacrifices always seems to result in a lackluster, unimpressive sound.

The other thing to keep in mind is that most "real" music you hear on
an album or streaming or whatever has been produced. Lots of FX,
mixing and post production techniques giving it the sheen that really
makes it sound good. MIDI files playing directly out of a synth will
never have that sheen, and while newer AI technologies are getting
better, so far nobody has made the art of mixing and mastering
obsolete. Although I wish they would, because I much prefer the sound
design and songwriting process, and would love an "easy button" to
produce a perfect mix. It's because of the above you're more likely
to get your music from .wav audio in games these days than MIDI.

Rin Stowleigh <rstowleigh@x-nospam-x.com> wrote:
....
> I played Dune 2, but honestly do not remember much about the music,
> it's been a long time... the others I never played.

Dune 1 (adventure) had memorable MIDI music to me from my original SB
ISA card even though I didn't like adventure games.

> But if they had great music, its possible that it was written and
> mixed directly on the OPL card, as opposed to composing on different
> gear and then tweaking the sounds on the OPL based card to work with
> the MIDI data.

> At least, I find it to be a much faster workflow to decide on the
> specific sounds I'm going to use up front, rather than to write chords
> and melody against generic sounds and then work different sounds in
> later.

> Not saying the latter approach can't work too. I just find that how
> sounds that might sound great by themselves play with each other is
> something that's more than the sum of all parts, and it's just easier
> to find the magic as early in the process as possible.

> So the whole idea of "general MIDI" is to be able to just take some
> MIDI data, throw it into a sound generation device and any bass line
> should sound like a good bass line, same with piano/drums/brass etc.
> But good sounding music isn't quite that simple, each of those sounds
> has slightly different envelopes and harmonic characteristics that
> don't guarantee they necessarily sound good together. And then there
> can be bugs in the MIDI implementation itself that really comes out
> sounding weird. Sometimes what comes out the other end sounds good,
> sometimes not so much.

> But given some combination of talent and patience, good sounding music
> can be coerced out of even the worst sounding synths.

> One of my favorite FM synths from back in the day was a TX81Z. Used
> and in mint condition they still go for about what I paid for mine
> back in 1989.

Does anyone remember iMuse in LucasGames like in Star Wars games?
That one was amazing even with FM MIDI!
--
"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus." --Romans 6:11. Slammy alt. BD Tues. after a catch up quiet Mon.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 00:08:38 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

>Dune 1 (adventure) had memorable MIDI music to me from my original SB
>ISA card even though I didn't like adventure games.

Dune 1 had an excellent soundtrack, even on the SoundBlaster.

>Does anyone remember iMuse in LucasGames like in Star Wars games?
>That one was amazing even with FM MIDI!

I remember being impressed with how well the Star Wars theme sounded
in Dark Forces. I don't remember if it used iMuse but I think it did.

On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 08:57:08 -0400, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 00:08:38 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>
>>Dune 1 (adventure) had memorable MIDI music to me from my original SB
>>ISA card even though I didn't like adventure games.
>
>Dune 1 had an excellent soundtrack, even on the SoundBlaster.
>
>>Does anyone remember iMuse in LucasGames like in Star Wars games?
>>That one was amazing even with FM MIDI!
>
>I remember being impressed with how well the Star Wars theme sounded
>in Dark Forces. I don't remember if it used iMuse but I think it did.

I didn't remember "Dark Forces" using iMuse but I just fired it up,
and yeah, the 'interactive' music is definitely in evidence. It's a
far better use of the system than "X-Wing", which had such a tiny
selection of song-snippets that everything started to sound the same.
There's much more variation in "Dark Forces".

Of course, iMuse didn't really have much to do how the music
/sounded/. It was just a virtual composing system that altered what
music played depending on the action on the screen. Its biggest
'trick' was that it had a myriad of short cues that interconnected the
longer pieces that made the transitions almost seamless. Actual
quality of sound was much more dependent on the human composer's
choice of instruments, the drivers (and the patch sets used), and the
hardware itself.

AFAIK, iMuse just output its music composition to the sound drivers
(originally included as a separate binary written by the company that
was nominally part of iMuse but really its own code. Later LucasArts
outsourced the soundcard drivers just like everyone else and used a
third-party system rather than try to program support for all the
hundreds of sound-cards that were on the market).

Honestly, I can't personally remember being all that impressed by how
the Star Wars games sounded using the SoundBlaster's FM synth over any
other game. Was it cool to hear the Star Wars fanfare coming out of my
computer speakers? Sure. Did it sound better than the beeps and boops
of the PC speaker? Undeniably. But it was still the same rough-edged
OPL3-powered synth sounds as any other game.

Now... with a Roland or a wave-table synth.... NOW you had some good
sounding music. ;-)

On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 08:31:29 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 10/06/2024 23:42, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> Damn it! I wanted to do the pedantic 'but actually!' bit about the
>> music!

>> (although I half-suspect Jab wrote that just to trigger people like
>> me. Mission accomplished, if so ?

>Can I be pedantic and 'well actually' I didn't say anything about the
>music :-)

It's only fair. ;-)

It might not be accurate but you definitely can say it. ;-) ;-) ;-)

Am 10.06.24 um 09:07 schrieb JAB:
> The game, the original, when it came out was refreshing and new and
> really hit a nerve a ton of that had to do with the dark humor (chainsaw)
> and the music by nine inch nails.

On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:43:50 -0700, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 6/9/2024 5:06 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> There's a trailer video here:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tk8lkmYGWQ
>
>That looks really cool. Shotgun, Hordes of enemies, Boss enemies,
>Captain America shield, Mech, riding a dragon.
>
>I haven't really been interested in Doom since the original, maybe 2 it
>was so long ago. This looks really good, but I'll wait until it's out
>and reviewed by real people.

Side note:

A modder has added the 'Captain America Shield" (a.k.a, the "Shield
Saw" to original Doom. It can be thrown, it blocks damage, and it cuts
through stuff like a chainsaw.

Available as a WAD file from here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NI9McMkc7WdTxEwkU_N0_ha2R8FDUAVr/view?usp=sharing

No word on whether dragon riding is currently in development, however.

On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 11:51:15 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>Of course, iMuse didn't really have much to do how the music
>/sounded/. It was just a virtual composing system that altered what
>music played depending on the action on the screen.

I know what iMuse is but to be honest with you, I never really noticed
it doing its thing back in the day so I never saw it as a big deal to
me personally.

>Now... with a Roland or a wave-table synth.... NOW you had some good
>sounding music. ;-)

I am sure I owned my Roland SCC-1 by the time Dark Forces came out so
that is probably what I heard the game's soundtrack through.

On 12/06/2024 17:36, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 08:31:29 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/06/2024 23:42, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> Damn it! I wanted to do the pedantic 'but actually!' bit about the
>>> music!
>
>>> (although I half-suspect Jab wrote that just to trigger people like
>>> me. Mission accomplished, if so ?
>
>> Can I be pedantic and 'well actually' I didn't say anything about the
>> music :-)
>
> It's only fair. ;-)
>
> It might not be accurate but you definitely can say it. ;-) ;-) ;-)
>
>
> Am 10.06.24 um 09:07 schrieb JAB:
>> The game, the original, when it came out was refreshing and new and
>> really hit a nerve a ton of that had to do with the dark humor (chainsaw)
>> and the music by nine inch nails.
>

I think you'll find that was Werner, I'm not going to misspell humour
after all :-)

Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> writes:

> On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 11:51:15 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Of course, iMuse didn't really have much to do how the music
>>/sounded/. It was just a virtual composing system that altered what
>>music played depending on the action on the screen.
>
> I know what iMuse is but to be honest with you, I never really noticed
> it doing its thing back in the day so I never saw it as a big deal to
> me personally.

I'm not sure if I would've noticed either. OTOH, my musician roommate
back then pointed out the kind of fanfare the music system played when I
shot up some enemy fighters in X-Wing. And after that I started noticing.

Am 11.06.24 um 00:49 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
> TL;DR: it's an apple-to-oranges comparison and I think both engines
> were great at what they did, neither superior nor inferior to the
> other. 😉
Absolutely apple2oranges, doom/wolfenstein etc... are basically souped
up 2d engines (raycasting)

uuw hat multiple levels, down and up aisle, was an immersive sim and rpg
in combination with some sprites because doing full 3d for npcs was a no
go back then, it also had NPCs. Basically what Looking Glass did in its
games was not replicated for another 10 years by others!

Am 11.06.24 um 16:20 schrieb Xocyll:
> It's not merely more advanced, it's Godzilla vs a cockroach more
> advanced.
Hehe yes that sums it up, but that was basically the comparison of
everything Looking Glass back then did compared to everything else.
Btw. Carmack got the idea of doing Wolfenstein 3d when he saw a demo of
Ultima Underworld at a conference.

I think UUW beat the Wolf 3d release by 2 weeks, in the end!

I somehow felt a little bit bitter, when ID Software got all the press
and sales while the ultimately more advanced and better games of Looking
Glass basically only were known and bought by a few people.

But oh well there were many bitter moments in gaming history! You cannot
change it retrospectively and by now LG got the credits they rightfully
deserve!

Am 12.06.24 um 19:58 schrieb JAB:
> On 12/06/2024 17:36, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 08:31:29 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/06/2024 23:42, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>> Damn it! I wanted to do the pedantic 'but actually!' bit about the
>>>> music!
>>
>>>> (although I half-suspect Jab wrote that just to trigger people like
>>>> me. Mission accomplished, if so ?
>>
>>> Can I be pedantic and 'well actually' I didn't say anything about the
>>> music :-)
>>
>> It's only fair. ;-)
>>
>> It might not be accurate but you definitely can say it. ;-) ;-) ;-)
>>
>>
>> Am 10.06.24 um 09:07 schrieb JAB:
>>> The game, the original, when it came out was refreshing and new and
>>> really hit a nerve a ton of that had to do with the dark humor
>>> (chainsaw)
>>> and the music by nine inch nails.
>>
>
> I think you'll find that was Werner, I'm not going to misspell humour
> after all :-)
>
Could not have been me, I am only a fan of the Worried Men Skiffle group...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w37PQNOLty8

But seriously yes, I was unaware of it!

On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 21:49:19 +0300, Anssi Saari
<anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote:

>Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 11:51:15 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
>> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Of course, iMuse didn't really have much to do how the music
>>>/sounded/. It was just a virtual composing system that altered what
>>>music played depending on the action on the screen.
>>
>> I know what iMuse is but to be honest with you, I never really noticed
>> it doing its thing back in the day so I never saw it as a big deal to
>> me personally.
>
>I'm not sure if I would've noticed either. OTOH, my musician roommate
>back then pointed out the kind of fanfare the music system played when I
>shot up some enemy fighters in X-Wing. And after that I started noticing.

It may also depend on what version of X-Wing you played.

The original "X-Wing" soundtrack - especially the in-flight gameplay
soundtrack was pretty limited in scope. It was essentially "low-key
'waiting theme' and 'action them', with a few interludes to swap
between them, and the occassional short sting ("friendly
reinforcements arrived", "enemy reinforcements arrived", "important
ship destroyed", etc. Within any one mission, it was quite
interesting... but it was the same music for EVERY SINGLE MISSION.
Whether you were doing a hit-n-run on an enemy convoy, or taking out a
minefield, or strafing laser turrets on the Death Star run, you heard
the same tune. It could incredibly monotonous incredibly fast.

"TIE Fighter" (and later, "Dark Forces") improved on the formula by
offering more variety. Not only did they have different tunes for
different missions, but there was more variety WITHIN each mission
too. I think that later versions of "X-Wing" (there were three in
total) improved the music selection somewhat.

So if I sound a bit down about iMuse in "X-Wing", that's why. It was
not an impressive use of the system in that game. Later titles used it
far better (and, of course, it was also used in many of LucasArts'
adventure games too. In fact, IIRC it was originally for the first
Monkey Isle game)

On 13/06/2024 13:19, Werner P. wrote:
> Am 12.06.24 um 19:58 schrieb JAB:
>> On 12/06/2024 17:36, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 08:31:29 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/06/2024 23:42, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>>> Damn it! I wanted to do the pedantic 'but actually!' bit about the
>>>>> music!
>>>
>>>>> (although I half-suspect Jab wrote that just to trigger people like
>>>>> me. Mission accomplished, if so ?
>>>
>>>> Can I be pedantic and 'well actually' I didn't say anything about the
>>>> music :-)
>>>
>>> It's only fair. ;-)
>>>
>>> It might not be accurate but you definitely can say it. ;-) ;-) ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 10.06.24 um 09:07 schrieb JAB:
>>>> The game, the original, when it came out was refreshing and new and
>>>> really hit a nerve a ton of that had to do with the dark humor
>>>> (chainsaw)
>>>> and the music by nine inch nails.
>>>
>>
>> I think you'll find that was Werner, I'm not going to misspell humour
>> after all :-)
>>
> Could not have been me, I am only a fan of the Worried Men Skiffle group...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w37PQNOLty8
>
> But seriously yes, I was unaware of it!
>

It depends on which version of English you were taught so in the UK we
obviously you British English which has a lot of additional "U's"
compared to say American English.