My son expressed an interest in upgrading his computer, he's waffling
though, as I told him he needs to pay for it himself. He has the money,
but doesn't want to use it. I would pay local taxes to help out.

My goal was to keep costs down, but make it at least as good as what I
have now. The one he has now is a handmedown from his grands,
unfortunately the case is a propriatary dell with a propriatary
motherboard, a normal ATX doesn't fit in it, so I can't use it. I may
be able to use the PSU, but need to tear it apart to do so. I'm only
planning on a 500W PSU as it seems power requirements have gone down
considerably.

I'm going for AMD as it seems both the CPU & GPU are finally better for
gaming for the price, not to mention they don't have the serious
vulnerabilty intel does in the CPUs.

I'm not sure about the Mid ATX case (will it fit a tower fan?) or the
mATX board, but I had a mATX board from MSI some time ago that I liked,
and it saves a good $60.

The GPU I put separate as he has my old 960, so could do the rest of the
computer.

Here's what I've got so far, did I miss anything, or anything else I
should consider:

* CPU $149
AMD Ryzen 5 8500G $149
3.5GHz-5
Multithread 21743
Singlethread 3917
Gaming 4355
Socket AM5

* Motherboard $119
ASRock B650M PG Lightning WiFi 6E AMD Ryzen Socket AM5 B650 DDR5 7200
MHz 256 GB SATA3 6.0 Gb/s ATX Motherboard M.2 RGB LED $119
https://www.amazon.com/ASRock-B650M-H-Motherboard-Type-C-DisplayPort/dp/B0CJT9KKSD/ref=sr_1_19?crid=308DM1MEVNIKG&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.SyUygCnAujC0lQYxahkXCWRlZ3IY-yMrexSF-xqSjphNCv22_g7GnN_802dUlVbmvnS9wHv3bY7h42H9N-UeDwQ-1ujXXbp-sIbb-AEDc16UkUI_310s1zhJpizIYJF7g1m_odakSjJH8Ui8L3qVL1r4_oyeiqiYFvvmxvxgHad_hEdmvRT39f4ewe5vzS_JVbG_wZoJbTWVgQbHQVdwJgdhojIvBWIBHUytkwUH49Y.W2MJRF3cLyf32p-AfOqzc7gBzP3MahElS8inyhVLH7E&dib_tag=se&keywords=am5%2Bmotherboard&qid=1733170551&sprefix=am5%2Bmotherboard%2Caps%2C183&sr=8-19&th=1

* Ram $89
Crucial Pro DDR5 RAM 32GB Kit (2x16GB) 6400MHz CL38, Overclocking
Desktop Gaming Memory, Intel XMP 3.0 & AMD Expo Compatible – Black
CP2K16G64C38U5B
https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-6400MHz-Overclocking-Desktop-Compatible/dp/B0DHFD5625/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2QJ8I5PFCYNUS&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.B9-UCchAC6bKq-Di-pi3MdgZtZH0DumpZ2b78COX_GuwG4uJbT9IaFeDjGFkHa6c_iPBeTKhfvEipJXZUWdDSPcmHc9JjkD_2nR_OJW1y_367F70HW4MKF4JBnNNuumXtuj24hlRz6L-AABD-JC2wC8Q4MwZlb2b-ONgLVEVX8KOD9mUhLSV3oJp_V4oaZg6vZ1tyVEFG_w4cPbb04yf4KaC57Yc-SzFtuNlHQh1kpk.k03tird4fav6Bh2HaX6T3DpAy8wFm25Dc8VX-cw0bf0&dib_tag=se&keywords=16%2Bgb%2Bddr5%2Bram&qid=1733172018&sprefix=16%2Bgb%2Bddr5%2Caps%2C298&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

* PSU $39
Thermaltake Smart 500W 80+ White Certified PSU, Continuous Power with
120mm Ultra Quiet Cooling Fan, ATX 12V V2.3/EPS 12V Active PFC Power
Supply PS-SPD-0500NPCWUS-W
https://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Certified-Continuous-cooling-PS-SPD-0500NPCWUS-W/dp/B014W3EM2W/ref=sr_1_5?crid=KK0L7ZUL650T&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.uur2ZhCNojEI-N5i_1X91ILeWtskQzTmS7ZqvHS7UZAO8hR6DogR54Geej-WIj8ijwKA-Sxm6xTJzorVowC8cIOXM1HHAdNv62hp8wwDh5NTqY78Mn7wTQkXhtk3a-FxXrM3jHkNyT6lgPuOBfwekZfa_JHeoKizvWgIIW4MMao1zIJM4DVYv3KKs76Rse6G47UDC8_xlDA1PRIdQhm6Z48WTupX2zrq0A4LPCuQ8_g.a5wC-e7BdC8vUZPCwClIMrbagHxLWFbZQzz24mxP46k&dib_tag=se&keywords=550%2Bwatt%2Bpsu&qid=1733172230&sprefix=550%2Bwatt%2Bpsu%2Caps%2C496&sr=8-5&th=1

* Case $59
Corsair 3000D AIRFLOW Mid-Tower PC Case – 3-Pin Fans – Four-Slot GPU
Support – Fits up to 8x 120mm Fans – High-Airflow Design – Black
https://www.amazon.com/Corsair-4000D-Airflow-Tempered-Mid-Tower/dp/B0C2JL6PNC/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1OXS46SYOWFQK&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.SUeau1ohhFzqQkb_1Kfr_VNx12zcnmFRtMkl2U8IHU8ymHHIvnJcJIMD-acsF6Rjrz-7rysj0ETrnrdfTHEpNSnB5IivgHYSfz99TVkKW3jdFmVOLJA-aevrI5TgpgK8YewKns75Bly95SAoVu740DvDPf34VX_8vXCoiuy9-Yg7lm_OYIBQtSL4878G6U8R7cfnRha5czWtrZCW9_cEknCKFBgZebRdw2AexUvMMbs.wlNzdgk1MvcNNehvcx9ikFl6e3clvL3Tj_ja9b1HyRw&dib_tag=se&keywords=Atx%2Bdesktop%2Bcase&qid=1733172364&sprefix=atx%2Bdesktop%2Bcas%2Caps%2C187&sr=8-3&th=1

* Tower Fan $17

= $472

+
* GPU
AMD Radeon RX 6750 XT $300
G3D 20834

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>AMD Ryzen 5 8500G $149

That's a CPU with decent integrated graphics, good enough to games at
1080p if you turn down the graphics settings and aren't playing anything
too modern (eg. good enough for Fortnite.) But it would be wasted if
you're using a graphics card. You probably selected it because its the
cheapest AM5 CPU out there, but I don't know if it's really worth it.
I'd spend more and get at least a 7600. If that's too much money, then
you might want to switch to an AM4 CPU which should also let you save some
money on the motherboard and maybe RAM while get getting a faster CPU.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

On 02/12/2024 21:23, Justisaur wrote:
> My son expressed an interest in upgrading his computer, he's waffling
> though, as I told him he needs to pay for it himself.  He has the money,
> but doesn't want to use it.  I would pay local taxes to help out.
>
> My goal was to keep costs down, but make it at least as good as what I
> have now. The one he has now is a handmedown from his grands,
> unfortunately the case is a propriatary dell with a propriatary
> motherboard, a normal ATX doesn't fit in it, so I can't use it.  I may
> be able to use the PSU, but need to tear it apart to do so.  I'm only
> planning on a 500W PSU as it seems power requirements have gone down
> considerably.

My not so helpfully advice is don't overthink it too much as the reality
is unless you do something disastrous it's going to do the job for you.
My last upgrade, instead of doing my customary spending ages trying to
decide exactly what to get I went down the I don't need a 'god like' PC
so let's just spend a little bit of time online looking for recommended
budget gaming set-ups. Did I get the best value for money, almost
definitely not but I also didn't waste hours upon hours of 'research'
just to say feck it I'll go with that which I looked at two weeks ago.

The other problem I found is that what would seem a good place for
advice (real people online) turns out to be really problematic in that
it ranges from at worst bad advice and at best this is the system I
would want regardless of whether that would met your needs. Oh you want
a new PC for general day-to-day stuff as some light gaming. Well clearly
what you want is system built around a 4090!

On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 09:37:21 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 02/12/2024 21:23, Justisaur wrote:
>> My son expressed an interest in upgrading his computer, he's waffling
>> though, as I told him he needs to pay for it himself.  He has the money,
>> but doesn't want to use it.  I would pay local taxes to help out.
>>
>> My goal was to keep costs down, but make it at least as good as what I
>> have now. The one he has now is a handmedown from his grands,
>> unfortunately the case is a propriatary dell with a propriatary
>> motherboard, a normal ATX doesn't fit in it, so I can't use it.  I may
>> be able to use the PSU, but need to tear it apart to do so.  I'm only
>> planning on a 500W PSU as it seems power requirements have gone down
>> considerably.
>
>My not so helpfully advice is don't overthink it too much as the reality
>is unless you do something disastrous it's going to do the job for you.
>My last upgrade, instead of doing my customary spending ages trying to
>decide exactly what to get I went down the I don't need a 'god like' PC
>so let's just spend a little bit of time online looking for recommended
>budget gaming set-ups. Did I get the best value for money, almost
>definitely not but I also didn't waste hours upon hours of 'research'
>just to say feck it I'll go with that which I looked at two weeks ago.
>
>The other problem I found is that what would seem a good place for
>advice (real people online) turns out to be really problematic in that
>it ranges from at worst bad advice and at best this is the system I
>would want regardless of whether that would met your needs. Oh you want
>a new PC for general day-to-day stuff as some light gaming. Well clearly
>what you want is system built around a 4090!

If money is an issue and you aren't going for LATEST AND GREATEST AND
FASTEST AND OTHER -ESTS!, you may also wish to consider the Intel Arc
GPUs (although that may force you onto an Intel CPU). The Arc B580 is
reportedly as fast as an Nvidia 4060 and for $250 USD that's a pretty
good performance-to-price ratio.

I haven't tried the newest Intel GPU architectures, but I've been
surprised by how good their integrated video stuff has become. No,
it's not top-of-the-line, but it's pretty damned good regardless.

On 12/3/2024 10:06 PM, Ross Ridge wrote:
> Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>> AMD Ryzen 5 8500G $149
>
> That's a CPU with decent integrated graphics, good enough to games at
> 1080p if you turn down the graphics settings and aren't playing anything
> too modern (eg. good enough for Fortnite.) But it would be wasted if
> you're using a graphics card. You probably selected it because its the
> cheapest AM5 CPU out there, but I don't know if it's really worth it.
> I'd spend more and get at least a 7600. If that's too much money, then
> you might want to switch to an AM4 CPU which should also let you save some
> money on the motherboard and maybe RAM while get getting a faster CPU.
>

Blech. I already ordered everything except the PSU as some of the
prices were black Friday only. I wanted to check if I could use the one
PSU in the case.

I just realized I could use the computer for my daughter if I bought
another SSD and power supply though, so I just bought those too, though
a 650w after checking specs & recommendations, and 2tb m.2 drive for
myself and will waterfall my ssd down. Also my son wanted to spend a
little more on the video card so got a 6800.

I tried looking into the onboard graphics for 8500G, but couldn't seem
to find much. I should've just suggested he try that first and then
could buy a separate graphics card if necessary, although prices are
likely to raise considerably next year in the US for everything (tariffs.)

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

On 12/4/2024 10:59 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 09:37:21 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>> On 02/12/2024 21:23, Justisaur wrote:
>>> My son expressed an interest in upgrading his computer, he's waffling
>>> though, as I told him he needs to pay for it himself.  He has the money,
>>> but doesn't want to use it.  I would pay local taxes to help out.
>>>
>>> My goal was to keep costs down, but make it at least as good as what I
>>> have now. The one he has now is a handmedown from his grands,
>>> unfortunately the case is a propriatary dell with a propriatary
>>> motherboard, a normal ATX doesn't fit in it, so I can't use it.  I may
>>> be able to use the PSU, but need to tear it apart to do so.  I'm only
>>> planning on a 500W PSU as it seems power requirements have gone down
>>> considerably.
>>
>> My not so helpfully advice is don't overthink it too much as the reality
>> is unless you do something disastrous it's going to do the job for you.
>> My last upgrade, instead of doing my customary spending ages trying to
>> decide exactly what to get I went down the I don't need a 'god like' PC
>> so let's just spend a little bit of time online looking for recommended
>> budget gaming set-ups. Did I get the best value for money, almost
>> definitely not but I also didn't waste hours upon hours of 'research'
>> just to say feck it I'll go with that which I looked at two weeks ago.
>>
>> The other problem I found is that what would seem a good place for
>> advice (real people online) turns out to be really problematic in that
>> it ranges from at worst bad advice and at best this is the system I
>> would want regardless of whether that would met your needs. Oh you want
>> a new PC for general day-to-day stuff as some light gaming. Well clearly
>> what you want is system built around a 4090!
>
> If money is an issue and you aren't going for LATEST AND GREATEST AND
> FASTEST AND OTHER -ESTS!, you may also wish to consider the Intel Arc
> GPUs (although that may force you onto an Intel CPU). The Arc B580 is
> reportedly as fast as an Nvidia 4060 and for $250 USD that's a pretty
> good performance-to-price ratio.

Apparently $180 now, from my usual source for the performance which
hasn't steered my wrong yet it looks to be waaaay below 4060. More
around a 3050, still a good price for that level of performance though.

I was mainly looking for something that would be around what I have, a
3060 TI, the 6750 was just above that, but cost $200+ less.

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

On 12/4/2024 1:37 AM, JAB wrote:
> On 02/12/2024 21:23, Justisaur wrote:
>> My son expressed an interest in upgrading his computer, he's waffling
>> though, as I told him he needs to pay for it himself.  He has the
>> money, but doesn't want to use it.  I would pay local taxes to help out.
>>
>> My goal was to keep costs down, but make it at least as good as what I
>> have now. The one he has now is a handmedown from his grands,
>> unfortunately the case is a propriatary dell with a propriatary
>> motherboard, a normal ATX doesn't fit in it, so I can't use it.  I may
>> be able to use the PSU, but need to tear it apart to do so.  I'm only
>> planning on a 500W PSU as it seems power requirements have gone down
>> considerably.
>
> My not so helpfully advice is don't overthink it too much as the reality
> is unless you do something disastrous it's going to do the job for you.
> My last upgrade, instead of doing my customary spending ages trying to
> decide exactly what to get I went down the I don't need a 'god like' PC
> so let's just spend a little bit of time online looking for recommended
> budget gaming set-ups. Did I get the best value for money, almost
> definitely not but I also didn't waste hours upon hours of 'research'
> just to say feck it I'll go with that which I looked at two weeks ago.
>
> The other problem I found is that what would seem a good place for
> advice (real people online) turns out to be really problematic in that
> it ranges from at worst bad advice and at best this is the system I
> would want regardless of whether that would met your needs. Oh you want
> a new PC for general day-to-day stuff as some light gaming. Well clearly
> what you want is system built around a 4090!

The adive I've gotten here has been far above anything I've found
elsewhere over the years :) Hopefully I've given some too.

I already ordered it, I probably made some mistakes (as Ross pointed
out) but it's still hundreds of dollars less than a branded gaming
computer of probably similar performance (or more like much higher
performance for the budget than one.)

I do have to put it together, which I've definitely lost a lot of my
interest for after my last one, but I'm willing to put in the time for
my family. If I counted what I'm paid vs. the time put into it, I'm
sure I come out behind. Part of it is just my hatred of getting stuck
with unupgradable proprietary junk. Not that I usually upgrade anything
except the video card separately, but the PS & case can last many
generations of computer. I know one can get the computer built to order
with the parts you want but that comes at a premium.

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 13:59:03 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 09:37:21 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>>On 02/12/2024 21:23, Justisaur wrote:
>>> My son expressed an interest in upgrading his computer, he's waffling
>>> though, as I told him he needs to pay for it himself.  He has the money,
>>> but doesn't want to use it.  I would pay local taxes to help out.
>>>
>>> My goal was to keep costs down, but make it at least as good as what I
>>> have now. The one he has now is a handmedown from his grands,
>>> unfortunately the case is a propriatary dell with a propriatary
>>> motherboard, a normal ATX doesn't fit in it, so I can't use it.  I may
>>> be able to use the PSU, but need to tear it apart to do so.  I'm only
>>> planning on a 500W PSU as it seems power requirements have gone down
>>> considerably.
>>
>>My not so helpfully advice is don't overthink it too much as the reality
>>is unless you do something disastrous it's going to do the job for you.
>>My last upgrade, instead of doing my customary spending ages trying to
>>decide exactly what to get I went down the I don't need a 'god like' PC
>>so let's just spend a little bit of time online looking for recommended
>>budget gaming set-ups. Did I get the best value for money, almost
>>definitely not but I also didn't waste hours upon hours of 'research'
>>just to say feck it I'll go with that which I looked at two weeks ago.
>>
>>The other problem I found is that what would seem a good place for
>>advice (real people online) turns out to be really problematic in that
>>it ranges from at worst bad advice and at best this is the system I
>>would want regardless of whether that would met your needs. Oh you want
>>a new PC for general day-to-day stuff as some light gaming. Well clearly
>>what you want is system built around a 4090!
>
>If money is an issue and you aren't going for LATEST AND GREATEST AND
>FASTEST AND OTHER -ESTS!, you may also wish to consider the Intel Arc
>GPUs (although that may force you onto an Intel CPU). The Arc B580 is
>reportedly as fast as an Nvidia 4060 and for $250 USD that's a pretty
>good performance-to-price ratio.

There is much more importance than there used to be between the raw
computational speed of the GPU and the level of optimization of the
drivers for specific games. It is no longer one setting fits all. I
got a bit of a wake up call on this with my recent rig upgrade...
comparing what would happen default out of the box vs NVidia app
recommended optimizations vs spending time tweaking and twiddling
myself. The difference can sometimes feel like two generations of PC
upgrades and/or make a big difference on the spectrum of
immersiveness.

On one hand I feel obligated toward a walk of shame that I've still
been gaming on 1080p all this time because I thought that was okay,
but at the same time have bemoaning the state of gaming when some of
them are quite entertaining once played on proper hardware.

Not only that, but I've been going back to some older ones like FC5
and FC6, and seeing them at 1440p at e-sports level frame rates and
refresh rates breathes new life into titles I already owned.

nVidia is till top of the pack when it comes to GPU.

Meanwhile I'm really enjoying gaming again. Go figure, the more
things change the more they stay the same.

On 05/12/2024 20:47, Justisaur wrote:
> On 12/4/2024 1:37 AM, JAB wrote:
>> On 02/12/2024 21:23, Justisaur wrote:
>>> My son expressed an interest in upgrading his computer, he's waffling
>>> though, as I told him he needs to pay for it himself.  He has the
>>> money, but doesn't want to use it.  I would pay local taxes to help out.
>>>
>>> My goal was to keep costs down, but make it at least as good as what
>>> I have now. The one he has now is a handmedown from his grands,
>>> unfortunately the case is a propriatary dell with a propriatary
>>> motherboard, a normal ATX doesn't fit in it, so I can't use it.  I
>>> may be able to use the PSU, but need to tear it apart to do so.  I'm
>>> only planning on a 500W PSU as it seems power requirements have gone
>>> down considerably.
>>
>> My not so helpfully advice is don't overthink it too much as the
>> reality is unless you do something disastrous it's going to do the job
>> for you. My last upgrade, instead of doing my customary spending ages
>> trying to decide exactly what to get I went down the I don't need a
>> 'god like' PC so let's just spend a little bit of time online looking
>> for recommended budget gaming set-ups. Did I get the best value for
>> money, almost definitely not but I also didn't waste hours upon hours
>> of 'research' just to say feck it I'll go with that which I looked at
>> two weeks ago.
>>
>> The other problem I found is that what would seem a good place for
>> advice (real people online) turns out to be really problematic in that
>> it ranges from at worst bad advice and at best this is the system I
>> would want regardless of whether that would met your needs. Oh you
>> want a new PC for general day-to-day stuff as some light gaming. Well
>> clearly what you want is system built around a 4090!
>
> The adive I've gotten here has been far above anything I've found
> elsewhere over the years :)  Hopefully I've given some too.
>
> I already ordered it, I probably made some mistakes (as Ross pointed
> out) but it's still hundreds of dollars less than a branded gaming
> computer of probably similar performance (or more like much higher
> performance for the budget than one.)
>

All I really know about gaming PC's is that you are almost always going
to overpay for what you actually get unless you really value a flash
case and some 'cool' stickers!

> I do have to put it together, which I've definitely lost a lot of my
> interest for after my last one, but I'm willing to put in the time for
> my family.  If I counted what I'm paid vs. the time put into it, I'm
> sure I come out behind.  Part of it is just my hatred of getting stuck
> with unupgradable proprietary junk.  Not that I usually upgrade anything
> except the video card separately, but the PS & case can last many
> generations of computer.  I know one can get the computer built to order
> with the parts you want but that comes at a premium.
>

Similar to me as the time between refreshes means that I never really
have a choice but to get at least MB + CPU + RAM, so much for the idea
of future proofing a PC. As for putting it together, I cheated slightly
with my last one in that I bought the MB + CPU + RAM pre-built. Can I
have spent more time shopping around to get a better deal, probably but
putting the CPU in is one of the parts I just don't like doing.

On 2024-12-05, Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
> The adive I've gotten here has been far above anything I've found
> elsewhere over the years :) Hopefully I've given some too.

here here... when I was think "where can I get advice on my build since
I haven't done so for decades. My first thought was c.s.i.p.g.a!

I don't regret it. Thanks all for contributing your knowledge.

> Part of it is just my hatred of getting stuck
> with unupgradable proprietary junk.

My goal for my build is not designing myself into a corner, but have a
case and components that can be upgraded for a few years at least,
longer if possible. Makes for easy Xmas presents, component UPGRADE!

--
Don't be afraid of the deep...
--[ bbs.bottomlessabyss.net | https | telnet=2023 ]--
--[ /query geeknix on libera.chat | tilde.chat ]--

On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 11:21:47 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 05/12/2024 20:47, Justisaur wrote:
>> On 12/4/2024 1:37 AM, JAB wrote:
>>> On 02/12/2024 21:23, Justisaur wrote:
>>>> My son expressed an interest in upgrading his computer, he's waffling
>>>> though, as I told him he needs to pay for it himself.  He has the
>>>> money, but doesn't want to use it.  I would pay local taxes to help out.
>>>>
>>>> My goal was to keep costs down, but make it at least as good as what
>>>> I have now. The one he has now is a handmedown from his grands,
>>>> unfortunately the case is a propriatary dell with a propriatary
>>>> motherboard, a normal ATX doesn't fit in it, so I can't use it.  I
>>>> may be able to use the PSU, but need to tear it apart to do so.  I'm
>>>> only planning on a 500W PSU as it seems power requirements have gone
>>>> down considerably.
>>>
>>> My not so helpfully advice is don't overthink it too much as the
>>> reality is unless you do something disastrous it's going to do the job
>>> for you. My last upgrade, instead of doing my customary spending ages
>>> trying to decide exactly what to get I went down the I don't need a
>>> 'god like' PC so let's just spend a little bit of time online looking
>>> for recommended budget gaming set-ups. Did I get the best value for
>>> money, almost definitely not but I also didn't waste hours upon hours
>>> of 'research' just to say feck it I'll go with that which I looked at
>>> two weeks ago.
>>>
>>> The other problem I found is that what would seem a good place for
>>> advice (real people online) turns out to be really problematic in that
>>> it ranges from at worst bad advice and at best this is the system I
>>> would want regardless of whether that would met your needs. Oh you
>>> want a new PC for general day-to-day stuff as some light gaming. Well
>>> clearly what you want is system built around a 4090!
>>
>> The adive I've gotten here has been far above anything I've found
>> elsewhere over the years :)  Hopefully I've given some too.
>>
>> I already ordered it, I probably made some mistakes (as Ross pointed
>> out) but it's still hundreds of dollars less than a branded gaming
>> computer of probably similar performance (or more like much higher
>> performance for the budget than one.)
>>
>
>
>All I really know about gaming PC's is that you are almost always going
>to overpay for what you actually get unless you really value a flash
>case and some 'cool' stickers!

And the thing about it is that it's all rather unnecessary. Even most
laptops today are capable of playing most games. Maybe not at the
highest resolutions and with all the features toggled to "ultra" but
even so you'll still end up with a good looking game. (Honestly, in
most cases I have a hard time noticing any difference between "medium"
and "ultra" setting anyway).

There are two reasons to overpay for a computer.

1) You enjoy it. It's a perfectly valid reason to buy something
powerful because you really like that part of it. If you ever
benchmark your computers*, you may be in this group. ;-)

2) You're trying to future-proof your investment. Myself, I tend
to go a long time between refreshes (although there are occassional
small upgrades in between, it can be over a decade between replacing
motherboard/cpu/ram). But even then, you don't need to buy the bestest
and fastest (especially with regards to GPUs) since those are likely
to get swapped out in the interim.

It really depends on how you intend to use your PC and how long before
you want a new one. If you're thinking that maybe in three to five
years you'll be upgrading, maybe scale down your expectations. Current
PCs are so disgustingly powerful already that most games don't take
advantage of their full abilities.

Do you really need that bleeding edge GPU? I don't think I know any
game which demands 16GB yet, much less 32GB, so maybe less RAM? How
many cores do you REALLY need? A super-fast spinning-iron HDD is
neat... but when you're mainly getting it for its capacity to store
data, is it worth the premium? If you're never going to upgrade, do
you really need such a PSU with so much overhead?

I'm not saying DON'T get these things. Depending on your wants and
usage scenario, any or all of them might be worth it to you. I LIKE
having an HDD so fast (15K RPM SCSI/SAS drive) it literally needs a
cooling fan to keep it running. It doesn't do anything for me
performance-wise, but I think stuff like that is neat. Maybe you do
too. But for most people, it's not worth the expense.

The only thing I'd argue for is -as mentioned in other posts- trying
to avoid proprietary parts... or at least computers that don't work
without them, because a) you can't upgrade them and b) if something
breaks, finding replacement parts will be impossible or expensive.
It's often cheaper to just toss the machine and buy new (which is, of
course, what THEY want).

Meanwhile, don't forget the 'little things' that are often overlooked
while concentrating on the big-ticket components. How many USB ports
does it have (you'll always want more). How easy is it to swap
components? One of my biggest complaints with my current PC is
something I completely overlooked: the placement of the power-button
(it's in the middle of the top panel; inconvenient to reach, but easy
to press accidentally when I put something on top of the PC).

TL;DR: before buying your PC, think about how you are going to use it,
what and where you're going to be using it with (e.g., external
components), and how long you realistically expect it to last before
replacing it.

* and keep a spreadsheet with the results. Not saying I know anyone
like that. ;-)

Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>I tried looking into the onboard graphics for 8500G, but couldn't seem
>to find much. I should've just suggested he try that first and then
>could buy a separate graphics card if necessary, although prices are
>likely to raise considerably next year in the US for everything (tariffs.)

Compared to a graphics card, the integrated graphics in AMD's G-suffix
CPUs is very poor. They're basically the replacement for the low-end
$100-$150 cards that no longer exist. Still they're significantly better
than what integrated graphics used to be (and still are for AMD's CPUs
without a G suffix). The CPU inside the Steam Deck has a similar CPU
with integrated graphics, so they can be a reasonable option for someone
who wants a cheap PC that can play older or less demanding games.

However, if someone was looking build a cheap gaming PC without a
graphics card, I'd recommend the 8600G as it's a fair bit faster, but
not that much more expensive than the 8500G. On the other hand the
8700G probably isn't worth the extra price.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> looked up from reading the
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:
<snippety>
>One of my biggest complaints with my current PC is
>something I completely overlooked: the placement of the power-button
>(it's in the middle of the top panel; inconvenient to reach, but easy
>to press accidentally when I put something on top of the PC).

Yeah,. Corsair 4000D case here, and the usual front of the case buttons
are on the top of the case, as is the USB port (Way to build a dust
collector guys.)

But since there's no room for an internal dvd drive, I bought an
external, which site on the top front of the computer, covering the
buttons and USB dust collector.

Xocyll

On Fri, 06 Dec 2024 11:24:12 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>Do you really need that bleeding edge GPU? I don't think I know any
>game which demands 16GB yet, much less 32GB, so maybe less RAM?

Some newer games want 12GB+ of VRAM on the video card.

Example:
https://www.windowscentral.com/gaming/pc-gaming/nvidias-rtx-4060-is-aging-horribly-as-indiana-jones-and-the-great-circle-nazi-punches-vram

For me going to a 4080Super with 16GB vram was a real eye opener, but
that also involves the upgrade to 1440p gaming, which is a complete
game changer *as long as your hardward lets you do it adequately* and
that includes the right monitor. Also, 1440p gaming is growing on
Steam hardware survey.

Personally I really wouldn't screw with less than 32GB of RAM on a new
gaming PC build... yes for a general web browsing system that tends to
want to hold open an increasing number of tabs in the browser (like my
GF), but 64GB for general system RAM and 16GB VRAM is better if
building a system now that's designed to get some longevity out of.

Your post did make a good point, that it matters how long you want to
go between upgrades... do you like to go 6 years and be wow'ed by the
eye popping difference or upgrade more modestly every 2-3 years
because you enjoy tinkering with the hardware more than the games
themselves? It's definitely something to consider, Different
Strokes(tm) for Gary Coleman and all that I guess.

One year I did a 4 year upgrade because it was necessary for other
reasons (long story... my gaming PC of today always becomes my music
production PC of tomorrow). And I was kind of underwhelmed by the
difference in games. But the difference between 2018 level top of the
line hardware and today's top of the line hardware matters tremendosly
in games.

On 12/5/2024 6:06 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Dec 2024 13:59:03 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 09:37:21 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/12/2024 21:23, Justisaur wrote:
>>>> My son expressed an interest in upgrading his computer, he's waffling
>>>> though, as I told him he needs to pay for it himself.  He has the money,
>>>> but doesn't want to use it.  I would pay local taxes to help out.
>>>>
>>>> My goal was to keep costs down, but make it at least as good as what I
>>>> have now. The one he has now is a handmedown from his grands,
>>>> unfortunately the case is a propriatary dell with a propriatary
>>>> motherboard, a normal ATX doesn't fit in it, so I can't use it.  I may
>>>> be able to use the PSU, but need to tear it apart to do so.  I'm only
>>>> planning on a 500W PSU as it seems power requirements have gone down
>>>> considerably.
>>>
>>> My not so helpfully advice is don't overthink it too much as the reality
>>> is unless you do something disastrous it's going to do the job for you.
>>> My last upgrade, instead of doing my customary spending ages trying to
>>> decide exactly what to get I went down the I don't need a 'god like' PC
>>> so let's just spend a little bit of time online looking for recommended
>>> budget gaming set-ups. Did I get the best value for money, almost
>>> definitely not but I also didn't waste hours upon hours of 'research'
>>> just to say feck it I'll go with that which I looked at two weeks ago.
>>>
>>> The other problem I found is that what would seem a good place for
>>> advice (real people online) turns out to be really problematic in that
>>> it ranges from at worst bad advice and at best this is the system I
>>> would want regardless of whether that would met your needs. Oh you want
>>> a new PC for general day-to-day stuff as some light gaming. Well clearly
>>> what you want is system built around a 4090!
>>
>> If money is an issue and you aren't going for LATEST AND GREATEST AND
>> FASTEST AND OTHER -ESTS!, you may also wish to consider the Intel Arc
>> GPUs (although that may force you onto an Intel CPU). The Arc B580 is
>> reportedly as fast as an Nvidia 4060 and for $250 USD that's a pretty
>> good performance-to-price ratio.
>
> There is much more importance than there used to be between the raw
> computational speed of the GPU and the level of optimization of the
> drivers for specific games. It is no longer one setting fits all. I
> got a bit of a wake up call on this with my recent rig upgrade...
> comparing what would happen default out of the box vs NVidia app
> recommended optimizations vs spending time tweaking and twiddling
> myself. The difference can sometimes feel like two generations of PC
> upgrades and/or make a big difference on the spectrum of
> immersiveness.
>
> On one hand I feel obligated toward a walk of shame that I've still
> been gaming on 1080p all this time because I thought that was okay,
> but at the same time have bemoaning the state of gaming when some of
> them are quite entertaining once played on proper hardware.

I'm still playing on 1080p myself. I suppose I should get a higher res
monitor and see if it makes a difference, but my eyes are getting old,
and I have trouble reading at much higher resolutions on similar screen
realestate. The 27" monitor I have is really too big for gaming on my
desk as I can't really focus on the whole screen, and I've actually been
running a lot of games windowed with smaller screen real-estate because
of it.

I ordered a 24" for my son as a gift (still 1080p) and am strongly
considering just giving my 27" inch to him and taking the 24", I may be
able to fit the 19" in portrait next to it too, which I can't do with
the 27", I miss my dual monitors.

>
> Not only that, but I've been going back to some older ones like FC5
> and FC6, and seeing them at 1440p at e-sports level frame rates and
> refresh rates breathes new life into titles I already owned.
>
> nVidia is till top of the pack when it comes to GPU.

AMD seems to be significantly better price/performance for the mid-high
range, but we'll see with my son's computer, really what I'm getting him
is overkill at 1080p. But top of the top, yes, nvidia is still better.

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

On 12/6/2024 5:55 PM, Xocyll wrote:
> Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> looked up from reading the
> entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
> say:
> <snippety>
>> One of my biggest complaints with my current PC is
>> something I completely overlooked: the placement of the power-button
>> (it's in the middle of the top panel; inconvenient to reach, but easy
>> to press accidentally when I put something on top of the PC).
>
> Yeah,. Corsair 4000D case here, and the usual front of the case buttons
> are on the top of the case, as is the USB port (Way to build a dust
> collector guys.)
>
> But since there's no room for an internal dvd drive, I bought an
> external, which site on the top front of the computer, covering the
> buttons and USB dust collector.

Ugh. Yeah I should've looked more closely at that, my current one has
the USB & power on top, though that's more convenient as I've got the
front behind my monitor, his current one is in front and that's
obviously better based on the schmutz on the the top, but the new one's
coming with all that top mounted.

I don't have all the parts yet. They should all be here next week
except for the the case might not be here until after Christmas. He's
itching to get it up and running so I might do with 'cardboard box' case
until it gets here. The VC might not be here until right before
Christmas, I don't see any point to using it until we get that though.
I'll have to check if the CPU fan covers any screwholes too as I'm not
taking it off to screw it in the case.

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

On 12/6/2024 2:31 PM, Ross Ridge wrote:
> Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I tried looking into the onboard graphics for 8500G, but couldn't seem
>> to find much. I should've just suggested he try that first and then
>> could buy a separate graphics card if necessary, although prices are
>> likely to raise considerably next year in the US for everything (tariffs.)
>
> Compared to a graphics card, the integrated graphics in AMD's G-suffix
> CPUs is very poor. They're basically the replacement for the low-end
> $100-$150 cards that no longer exist. Still they're significantly better
> than what integrated graphics used to be (and still are for AMD's CPUs
> without a G suffix). The CPU inside the Steam Deck has a similar CPU
> with integrated graphics, so they can be a reasonable option for someone
> who wants a cheap PC that can play older or less demanding games.
>
> However, if someone was looking build a cheap gaming PC without a
> graphics card, I'd recommend the 8600G as it's a fair bit faster, but
> not that much more expensive than the 8500G. On the other hand the
> 8700G probably isn't worth the extra price.

I finally dug around and found some info on it by comparing flops, the
8500G seems to be about half the performance of the now really old gtx
950 that I waterfalled to him already, so yeah no use for that onboard
video.

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On 12/6/2024 5:55 PM, Xocyll wrote:
> > Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> looked up from reading the
> > entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
> > say:
> > <snippety>
> >> One of my biggest complaints with my current PC is
> >> something I completely overlooked: the placement of the power-button
> >> (it's in the middle of the top panel; inconvenient to reach, but easy
> >> to press accidentally when I put something on top of the PC).
> >
> > Yeah,. Corsair 4000D case here, and the usual front of the case buttons
> > are on the top of the case, as is the USB port (Way to build a dust
> > collector guys.)
> >
> > But since there's no room for an internal dvd drive, I bought an
> > external, which site on the top front of the computer, covering the
> > buttons and USB dust collector.
>
>Ugh. Yeah I should've looked more closely at that, my current one has
>the USB & power on top, though that's more convenient as I've got the
>front behind my monitor, his current one is in front and that's
>obviously better based on the schmutz on the the top, but the new one's
>coming with all that top mounted.
>
>I don't have all the parts yet. They should all be here next week
>except for the the case might not be here until after Christmas. He's
>itching to get it up and running so I might do with 'cardboard box' case
>until it gets here. The VC might not be here until right before
>Christmas, I don't see any point to using it until we get that though.
>I'll have to check if the CPU fan covers any screwholes too as I'm not
>taking it off to screw it in the case.

It shouldn't.

I mounted 2 more fans in the front, and have one in back and one of the
two top fan slots for 3 in and 2 out.

I even moved them around a bit sine the 3 extra fans I bought were red
leds ones, at no time did the CPU fan get in the way.

The one thing I had to do was buy a fan hub type thing for the fans,
there aren't enough on-MB connecters for more then 2 fans.

Something like
https://www.canadacomputers.com/en/case-fans/148956/ican-rainbow-rgb-controller-connect-up-to-10-fans-with-wireless-remote-control-note-compatible-with-cogoe00001-or-any-4-pin-12v-icctrlrgb.html

The external cd/dvd drive is very slim and low profile, but because it's
sitting on top of the computer, I couldn't fill the last fan slot, but
it's unnecessary and the thing covers the buttons and USB slot nicely
and stuff can be put on it, and you just slide it back a centimeter if
you need to reboot or use the usb slot.

Even though the apt gets very hot in the summer, the fans never sped up
even under double game load.

Xocyll

On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 19:43:14 -0800, Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I'm still playing on 1080p myself. I suppose I should get a higher res
>monitor and see if it makes a difference, but my eyes are getting old,
>and I have trouble reading at much higher resolutions on similar screen
>realestate. The 27" monitor I have is really too big for gaming on my
>desk as I can't really focus on the whole screen, and I've actually been
>running a lot of games windowed with smaller screen real-estate because
>of it.
>I ordered a 24" for my son as a gift (still 1080p) and am strongly
>considering just giving my 27" inch to him and taking the 24", I may be
>able to fit the 19" in portrait next to it too, which I can't do with
>the 27", I miss my dual monitors.

My preference is 1440p scaled up to 125%, it gives crisp lines on
everything, the size of fonts is about the same as what you'd see at
100% scaling at 1080p, but you have more overall real estate for
productivity apps, scrolling etc.

There are some occasional old apps (like the version of Agent I'm
using now) where they will be blurry by default at anything higher
than 125%, but you only have to go into the properties page for the
app .exe and tweak the high DPI settings.

The particular monitor I have (ASUS PG27AQN) is a bit expensive as far
as 27" 1440p GSync monitors go ($650 USD), but it can do 360hz and it
has the smoothest (CRT-like) gameplay of any LCD monitor I've ever
seen, with the text clarity of an IPS monitor, non-existent blur, etc.
It's designed for e-sports, but it's great as an overall monitor; I
now use my gaming computer for software development, video editing,
and music production apps whereas I used to maintain separate systems
for gaming and productivity. I haven't compared it side-by-side with
OLED monitors but apparently it competes with OLED for gaming
performance overall without making the text unusably blurry for
everything else (a problem with OLED in addition to burn-in issues).

For the "too big" issue you're referring to, it has a mode where you
can bump it down to 1080p with a 25" picture. E-sports gamers often
run in a smaller mode / lower res like this in order to trade off
immersion for competitive advantages like faster frames and narrower
field of view to spot enemies faster.

Also using VESA desk mounts instead of monitor stands let you adjust
the arm for viewing distance more easily, so by moving the monitor
farther away from your eyes you might not be bothered by screen size.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>I don't think I know any game which demands 16GB yet, much less 32GB,
>so maybe less RAM?

One game that demands 16GB is Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024 which has
a minimum requirement of 16GB, recommendeds 32GB and considers 64GB to
be "ideal". There are other games like Indiana Jones and the Great
Circle and Horizon: Forbidden West that also require 16GB minimum.
We're probably not going to see many new AAA games that don't have at
least 16GB/32GB minimum/recommended requirements.

According to PC Gamer, those MSF 2024 requirements aren't exagerations:

With 16 or 32 GB of memory, Flight Simulator 2024 badly jerks and
lags as it tries to load in the world when starting a flight. Even
just moving about in the menus isn't especially smooth with those
amounts of RAM. But with 64 and 96 GB, it's almost stutter-free.

https://www.pcgamer.com/hardware/microsoft-says-64-gb-is-the-ideal-spec-for-flight-simulator-2024-but-ive-tested-it-with-96-gb-and-it-makes-a-big-difference/

But perhaps more importantly 32GB of RAM is so cheap these days you
don't save much by getting 16GB instead. 32GB should be the minimum
amount of RAM for all but the cheapest of builds. It's not really about
future proofing either, it's not hard or expensive to add RAM later.
The nice thing about RAM is that it never goes to waste. Any RAM left
unused by applications gets used as disk cache, improving loading times
even in games that only use a fraction of your RAM directly. That "extra"
RAM will get used today.

(That's probably why the article above saw FPS improvements going from
64GB to 96GB despite the fact that the game never used more than 30GB.
Performance improved because it didn't have to load as much data from
storage. Even the fastest SSDs aren't as fast as RAM.)

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //