On 2024-10-03, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

> I usually rec 'forward replication', keep copying
> yer data to the latest/greatest media. Alas even
> that seems to be running out. The Future is 'cloud',
> but remember Vlad's nasty boyz might evaporate that
> cloud anytime now.

We don't need Vlad. A cloud provider who suddenly decided
to hold your data for ransom is enough. And even if not,
shit happens. A friend lost a lot of valuable photos to
the Cloud - it might have been a finger fumble, but we
seem to have forgotten that saying about eggs and baskets.

"There is no Cloud - it's just someone else's computer."

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | People have become too
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | dependent on the Internet.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | It Clouds their thinking.
/ \ if you read it the right way. |

Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote at 05:35 this Tuesday (GMT):
> candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>> Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote at 00:15 this Monday (GMT):
>> > Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:
>> >> On 28/09/2024 16:14, Ant wrote:
>> >> > In comp.os.linux.misc Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:
>> >> >> +1 for M-Disc BDR. I use the 100GB version.
>> >> >
>> >> > Aren't they slow? Burning DVDs and CDs take forever! :(
>> >
>> >> Yeah, my 60 GB weekly backup set takes about 3 hours to get on disc.
>> >> DVDs are nothing compared to that.
>> >
>> > Oof. Even copying files with USB between HDDs is slow enough for me. Haha.
>
>> Might be a issue with your computer? That's weird.
>
> Like overnight, I copied 455 GB that took about 1.5 hrs. ;P

Is that a good or bad speed?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

In comp.os.linux.misc 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
> Optical disks - esp M-Disks - can LAST ... but they
> are LOW-DENSITY by today's defs by a BIG margin.
> It's also not clear if you'd be able to FIND a
> DVD reader device 25 years from now. Even most
> current PCs/laptops don't COME with those anymore.

Which is exactly the problem.

Your DVD 'media' might survive 1,000 years. But if you can't buy a DVD
reader for any price, all that 'media' is useless.

We've already seen that issue before. Try to find a Zip disk or
SuperDisk drive. If any could be purchased, they would all be from
places like eBay and of questionable operational quality.

The reality is the only way to 'archive' is to periodically copy one's
archived data to newer storage systems, which involves at least the
work of the actual copy process (and which must occur before the
mechanical devices for the old media fail) and of verification that the
copy process did not itself corrupt the data.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 01:47:00 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

>
> It's a SERIOUS PROBLEM. We make SO much data now,
> SUCH volume, and at least SOME of it IS important
> for both legal and historical reasons - yet there
> are NO really good archival media.
>

Very well stated. This was, of course, the real subject
of my original post.

I would guess that human beings (a.k.a. Homo sapiens) are
not very far sighted. We witness this in societal reactions
to COVID-19 and global warming. It seems that human
civilization is not capable at all of being proactive.

>
> Optical disks - esp M-Disks - can LAST ... but they
> are LOW-DENSITY by today's defs by a BIG margin.
> It's also not clear if you'd be able to FIND a
> DVD reader device 25 years from now. Even most
> current PCs/laptops don't COME with those anymore.
>

BDR optical disks have enough capacity to easily deal with
business, government, or personal documents.

It is only when we consider multimedia files, especially
videos, that we run into problems.

>
> The Library Of Congress and Smithsonian are FREAKIN'
> at this point. SO much historical data - but they
> can't even find the hardware/drivers to READ the
> often-proprietary media.
>

This is another story that needs to be covered. How will
these and other institutions solve the problem and how can
any solutions be extended to personal computing?

But since consumer-grade computing is dominated by fashion
and fad, it's not likely that the grubbing corps will produce
long-term storage technology.

--
Systemd: solving all the problems that you never knew you had.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 09:58:04 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
wrote:

>On 2024-10-03 12:40 a.m., Steve Hayes wrote:
>> Perhaps a law should be enacted that any computer software that is "no
>> longer supported" should be made open source.
>
>It happens a lot but there is no law pushing for that. Nevertheless,
>what you mentioned above is true albeit most hypothetical. In most
>cases, even obsolete formats can be read by the new suites because there
>is a converter built into the software. I imagine this was a problem in
>the 90s with the format of 80s software which suddenly disappeared, but
>it no longer seems to be true. Still, I agree that formats should be
>open-source.

I don't know about Linux, but Windows 11 cannot run programs that are
used to read or create older documents, and if you put earlier
versions on a new computer Microsoft won't let you run them. Windows
XP, the 32-bit version anyway, should be made open source.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 10/3/24 1:13 PM, Rich wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>> Optical disks - esp M-Disks - can LAST ... but they
>> are LOW-DENSITY by today's defs by a BIG margin.
>> It's also not clear if you'd be able to FIND a
>> DVD reader device 25 years from now. Even most
>> current PCs/laptops don't COME with those anymore.
>
> Which is exactly the problem.
>
> Your DVD 'media' might survive 1,000 years. But if you can't buy a DVD
> reader for any price, all that 'media' is useless.
>
> We've already seen that issue before. Try to find a Zip disk or
> SuperDisk drive. If any could be purchased, they would all be from
> places like eBay and of questionable operational quality.

I actually HAVE a gen-1 ZipDisk - parallel port.
They were supposed to be The Future :-)

Now nothing even comes with a parallel port.
Does anybody sell a USB->DB25 Parallel ?

Ah :

https://www.amazon.com/C2G-16899-Parallel-Printer-Adapter/dp/B000UX21PY/ref=sr_1_6?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.1VI8pfXqbYFCqzemMpvwSeS7sWlXF85-8KCEE02Eq0U5ijmY6VQsHDd4jiHTJdbXneNSTAjv0kQYw5VX4GdbqyTSunox50IwAfWTs_yauKlzZUkYaW-1O0zu_K-T2aZ-lucb5yIPkraxSzUvcjoEALqE4U6n0B54UxrIA4O_XuR08eLCcjsrjV-zuudG7_iyjE76TOIVN5lFDy-JxuJ6Z9LWfk4rkdxNqfT1bg0KjN0.sM52_QZ_SQzD3giWHwr3zXrQaCEJ8eYQR17c0YfJzW8&dib_tag=se&keywords=parallel+to+usb+adapter&qid=1728012393&sr=8-6

Linux drivers ???????

> The reality is the only way to 'archive' is to periodically copy one's
> archived data to newer storage systems, which involves at least the
> work of the actual copy process (and which must occur before the
> mechanical devices for the old media fail) and of verification that the
> copy process did not itself corrupt the data.

Exactly what I said ... "forward replication". It's
actual WORK alas .....

"Cloud" also - but remember that the cloud can
go away in a number of fashions - and not just
Vlad and his boyz.

Oh well, back to baked clay tablets - proven 9Kyear
retention and you don't need a reading device :-)

On 10/3/24 3:13 PM, Nux Vomica wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 01:47:00 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>>
>> It's a SERIOUS PROBLEM. We make SO much data now,
>> SUCH volume, and at least SOME of it IS important
>> for both legal and historical reasons - yet there
>> are NO really good archival media.
>>
>
> Very well stated. This was, of course, the real subject
> of my original post.
>
> I would guess that human beings (a.k.a. Homo sapiens) are
> not very far sighted. We witness this in societal reactions
> to COVID-19 and global warming. It seems that human
> civilization is not capable at all of being proactive.
>
>>
>> Optical disks - esp M-Disks - can LAST ... but they
>> are LOW-DENSITY by today's defs by a BIG margin.
>> It's also not clear if you'd be able to FIND a
>> DVD reader device 25 years from now. Even most
>> current PCs/laptops don't COME with those anymore.
>>
>
> BDR optical disks have enough capacity to easily deal with
> business, government, or personal documents.
>
> It is only when we consider multimedia files, especially
> videos, that we run into problems.

Good luck finding a BDR reader device/drivers even
25 years from now.

At my last job, they had about 10tb of stuff going back
like forever - and SOME of it was of legal/historical
significance but you'd never know exactly WHAT, so
you had to keep it ALL alive. Other biz that might
be 100tb easy.

I remember ONE govt agency once demanded docs going
back to the *1920s* ... fortunately they had THAT,
albeit on old yellowed paper. Musta pissed-off the
feds when they actually delivered that ... 'cause
then they had to PAY OUT :-)

>>
>> The Library Of Congress and Smithsonian are FREAKIN'
>> at this point. SO much historical data - but they
>> can't even find the hardware/drivers to READ the
>> often-proprietary media.
>>
>
> This is another story that needs to be covered. How will
> these and other institutions solve the problem and how can
> any solutions be extended to personal computing?
>
> But since consumer-grade computing is dominated by fashion
> and fad, it's not likely that the grubbing corps will produce
> long-term storage technology.

No, they won't. A FEW make adapters, but for HOW
long ... and the drivers for whatever OS won't
work forever.

I have some 8-inch floppies - but NO way to read
them anymore. Maybe SOME converter biz, but at
what PRICE ? Even then 8-inch floppies were NOT
all formatted the same at any level. Every maker
tended to use their OWN "better" way.

The govt/NASA stuff - even WORSE situation. Esp
for NASA literal one-off devices/formats were made.

For mag/optical ... in THEORY you can probe them
micron by micron with mag/laser probes and then
eventually figure out the format. Again $$$ !!!

So, it's back to baked clay tablets ..... 10k
years and still readable .......

On 10/3/24 3:10 AM, Paul wrote:
> On Thu, 10/3/2024 2:28 AM, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>> Ever seen one of these ?
>>
>> https://i.pinimg.com/736x/47/7b/d0/477bd0823ee461ed51192a3c530d7a49--vintage-advertisements-computers.jpg
>>
>> http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/physical-object/scopus/102626624.lg.jpg
>>
>> I do ... they were the 'state of the art' when I first
>> got into computers. Beat the shit out of tapes.
>>
>> They fit into a little 'washing machine' box. They
>> usually had a plastic case with a handle. You could
>> REMOVE them and put in another disc pack (but DO
>> make sure they'd stopped spinning - I remember at
>> least one amusing incident).
>>
>> They were THE thing in the 60s and 70s - long before
>> before the little ones that'd fit into yer IBM-PC.
>> MOSTLY the read heads all moved in unison, but I saw
>> one at NASA that had independently-moving read/write
>> arms but that MAY have been one of their one-off
>> bits of tech. Those were big fat arms too ... nearly
>> a half-inch between each disk platter in the pack.
>> Cool to watch them work.
>>
>> Now, oddly, I took a tour of a US attack sub in
>> the latter 80s and, in the sonar room, they STILL
>> had one of these things - attached to a box so
>> large it probably still used discrete transistors
>> as its CPU - but mil stuff is specced MANY years
>> in advance so it's NEVER the latest greatest tech
>> except in the movies.
>>
>> Had a brief, understandably security-couched,
>> conversation with the sonar guy - wherein he
>> agreed that the best sound/pattern detector was
>> still gonna be between-the-ears for a LONG time
>> to come. The computer signal-processing stuff was
>> an AID, not any definitive word on anything.
>> Human skill was still what was needed. Our
>> pattern-detection/comprehension hardware STILL
>> exceeds most "AI" efforts even now. Darwin
>> did good.
>>
>
> Our "personal computer" design at work, had one of those
> washing machines as an option. That was our departmental
> file server at the time. Surprisingly, it worked well,
> and no complaints about the loadable disk packs. Swap a
> pack, allow the machine to purge the air for five to ten
> minutes, then put it back online.

The old removable-pack drives WERE pretty reliable.
Not much cap by today's standards alas and a rather
miserable xfer rate too - but compared to TAPES !!!

> As for your paragraph:
>
> HDDs are better - but they ARE mechanical devices
> and also, esp with the high-cap ones, 'bit rot'
> can become an issue. Don't expect to put 'em in
> the safe for 25 years and still expect to get
> data out of them.
>
> Just be aware there are two groups of drives.
> A 22TB Helium drive, is not really archival quality.
> It's the unknown Helium status that is the limiting factor.
>
> An air breathing drive at 6TB, is more likely to be running
> 20 years from now.

Helium drives were always just a sales gimmick.

NO way to contain helium for long - it's a
super-fluid, even as a gas. It'll always
find a way out.

> As for the "bit-rot" assertion, there is this non-authoritative source
>
> https://datarecovery.com/rd/what-are-hard-drive-error-correction-codes-eccs/
>
> "Most modern hard drives use the Reed-Solomon error correction algorithm,
> which doesn’t require much storage space or processing power."
>
> That means that when a sector is read, it can be:
>
> 1) Perfect
> 2) Correct-able
> 3) Uncorrect-able (returns CRC error)
>
> Flash devices also work this way (50 byte syndrome for 512 bytes sector).
>
> At one time, hard drives assumed single bit errors, random in nature,
> uncorrelated, no burst errors. The original error detection might have
> been a Fire Code. You could multiply by (X+1) a couple times, when
> selecting a polynomial, to allow it to handle multiple single bit errors.
> I don't think there was a correction capability with that, it was just
> for bit-rot. Back then, you were more likely to see "bits" in the
> head signal. Today, the head signal is wavey-gravy and only DSP
> techniques recover the data. A lot of items use scramblers to
> reduce zeros sensitivity, so even if you attempted to "zero the drive",
> if you scope the head signal, it will be a wavey gravy signal, not
> a "flat signal". The signal will not be zero volts from one end of the
> platter to the other. The signal is scrambled (and could also be
> encrypted by FDE encryption, and they would *still* scramble it).
> That's why if you think anyone "looks with a microscope and
> reads out your .txt file", no, it does not work that way :-)
> The recovery process needs at least a computer... and a codes genius.

NOT surprised the head signals aren't even "square"
anymore. The more they try and pack it .....

Some of the math stuff, I'll take your word for it :-)

Interesting/useful info in any case, the nuts-and-bolts
nobody ever thinks about.

Anyway, 'bit rot' happens. MIGHT be correctable, maybe not.
Rule of thumb, I'm just gonna assume 20 years archive life
for a good HDD, max. There are other mechanical factors, even
the lube on the parts, involved. Transistors degrade. Caps
degrade. The insulation on inductors and motor windings
degrades. Even neo magnets can degrade .......

Do NOT think yer 'average operation' is gonna store HDDs
in pure dry argon at THE perfect temperature. This fact
represents a sort of "practical limit".

> The FDE part, is why when repairing hard drives today, you have to swap
> the ROM from the original controller, with the one on the replacement
> controller, because the key is stored in there. In the old days, you
> just slapped on a matching controller model number, and it just worked.
> That's not how it happens today. There are several ROMs on the board,
> but only one needs to be swapped.

I saw a vid of someone swapping the key-containing chip
between drives. Chips are VERY small these days and the
multi-layer circuitboards can be another complication.

On Thu, 10/3/2024 11:31 PM, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
> On 10/3/24 1:13 PM, Rich wrote:
>> In comp.os.linux.misc 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>>    Optical disks - esp M-Disks - can LAST ... but they
>>>    are LOW-DENSITY by today's defs by a BIG margin.
>>>    It's also not clear if you'd be able to FIND a
>>>    DVD reader device 25 years from now. Even most
>>>    current PCs/laptops don't COME with those anymore.
>>
>> Which is exactly the problem.
>>
>> Your DVD 'media' might survive 1,000 years.  But if you can't buy a DVD
>> reader for any price, all that 'media' is useless.
>>
>> We've already seen that issue before.  Try to find a Zip disk or
>> SuperDisk drive.  If any could be purchased, they would all be from
>> places like eBay and of questionable operational quality.
>
>   I actually HAVE a gen-1 ZipDisk - parallel port.
>   They were supposed to be The Future  :-)
>
>   Now nothing even comes with a parallel port.
>   Does anybody sell a USB->DB25 Parallel ?
>
>   Ah :
>
> https://www.amazon.com/C2G-16899-Parallel-Printer-Adapter/dp/B000UX21PY/ref=sr_1_6?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.1VI8pfXqbYFCqzemMpvwSeS7sWlXF85-8KCEE02Eq0U5ijmY6VQsHDd4jiHTJdbXneNSTAjv0kQYw5VX4GdbqyTSunox50IwAfWTs_yauKlzZUkYaW-1O0zu_K-T2aZ-lucb5yIPkraxSzUvcjoEALqE4U6n0B54UxrIA4O_XuR08eLCcjsrjV-zuudG7_iyjE76TOIVN5lFDy-JxuJ6Z9LWfk4rkdxNqfT1bg0KjN0.sM52_QZ_SQzD3giWHwr3zXrQaCEJ8eYQR17c0YfJzW8&dib_tag=se&keywords=parallel+to+usb+adapter&qid=1728012393&sr=8-6
>
>  Linux drivers ???????
>
>> The reality is the only way to 'archive' is to periodically copy one's
>> archived data to newer storage systems, which involves at least the
>> work of the actual copy process (and which must occur before the
>> mechanical devices for the old media fail) and of verification that the
>> copy process did not itself corrupt the data.
>
>   Exactly what I said ... "forward replication". It's
>   actual WORK alas .....
>
>   "Cloud" also - but remember that the cloud can
>   go away in a number of fashions - and not just
>   Vlad and his boyz.
>
>   Oh well, back to baked clay tablets - proven 9Kyear
>   retention and you don't need a reading device  :-)

That cable, supports one of four protocols. It might be referred
to as a "printer cable", and the only protocol available is
a printing protocol. It does not allow the other things, like
bit setting or whatever (mainly as no one wrote a driver to
do that). It can't run a ZIP drive.

*******

I have a PCI Express parallel port card (Oxford Semiconductor, Oxsemi).
It would come closer to the functions available on old computers.
A program allowed the parallel port, to function as a JTAG scan port.
The scan rate would not be very high, but it was just for programming
the flash chip next to an FPGA.

OxSemi was bought and crushed.

The example here, the branding looks like the chip is made by ASIX.

https://www.amazon.ca/StarTech-com-1-Port-Parallel-PCIe-Card/dp/B091TZPQ1K

But whether a 32-bit ZIP driver would run on a 64-bit OS
today, that seems unlikely. The driver would not be signed.
It's not a slam-dunk, that just adding a card to a desktop,
fixes things for you. But there are bits and pieces of solutions.

Paul

On Thu, 10/3/2024 10:46 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 09:58:04 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-10-03 12:40 a.m., Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> Perhaps a law should be enacted that any computer software that is "no
>>> longer supported" should be made open source.
>>
>> It happens a lot but there is no law pushing for that. Nevertheless,
>> what you mentioned above is true albeit most hypothetical. In most
>> cases, even obsolete formats can be read by the new suites because there
>> is a converter built into the software. I imagine this was a problem in
>> the 90s with the format of 80s software which suddenly disappeared, but
>> it no longer seems to be true. Still, I agree that formats should be
>> open-source.
>
> I don't know about Linux, but Windows 11 cannot run programs that are
> used to read or create older documents, and if you put earlier
> versions on a new computer Microsoft won't let you run them. Windows
> XP, the 32-bit version anyway, should be made open source.

Wasn't the source stolen ? Article is from four years ago.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/25/21455655/microsoft-windows-xp-source-code-leak

All that you need, is a virtualization solution.

Paul

On Fri, 04 Oct 2024 02:19:08 -0400, Paul wrote:

> On Thu, 10/3/2024 10:46 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> I don't know about Linux, but Windows 11 cannot run programs that are
>> used to read or create older documents, and if you put earlier versions
>> on a new computer Microsoft won't let you run them. Windows XP, the
>> 32-bit version anyway, should be made open source.
>
> Wasn't the source stolen ? Article is from four years ago.
>
> https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/25/21455655/microsoft-windows-xp-source-
code-leak

Well, if they won't let you use the real thing, I suppose a pirate copy
will do. But it's the attitude of companies like that that makes
"digitisation" a very insecure and unreliable way of archiving documents.

> All that you need, is a virtualization solution.

From what I've heard from users, such solutions are clunky and
unreliable.

BTW what's the quickest way o updating the browser I'm using in Linux? It
barfed on the link you gave, saying it wasn't a secure connection. Firfox
for Windows lets me override that, but Firefox for Linux obviously
doesn't, so I'd better update it.

--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:
> On 30/09/2024 22:35, Ant wrote:
> > candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
> >> Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote at 00:15 this Monday (GMT):
> >>> Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:
> >>>> On 28/09/2024 16:14, Ant wrote:
> >>>>> In comp.os.linux.misc Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> +1 for M-Disc BDR. I use the 100GB version.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Aren't they slow? Burning DVDs and CDs take forever! :(
> >>>
> >>>> Yeah, my 60 GB weekly backup set takes about 3 hours to get on disc.
> >>>> DVDs are nothing compared to that.

> That is burning 55GB to a 100GB-capable BD-R/M-disc, using USB-3 to an
> external Pioneer M-Disc compatible BD-R drive.
> >>> Oof. Even copying files with USB between HDDs is slow enough for me. Haha.
> >
> >> Might be a issue with your computer? That's weird.
> >
> > Like overnight, I copied 455 GB that took about 1.5 hrs. ;P

> From what media to what media?

> Using what data path?

Internal SATA 7200 RPM 2 GB HDD to external 2.5" 5 TB USB3 HDDs.
--
"In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak, who are caught in the schemes he devises." --Psalm 10:2. Out(r)agey (yay 4 $20 credit), slammy, leaky, sneezy, fixy, crazy, hotty, etc. New bins!
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On 04/10/2024 10:56, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Oct 2024 02:19:08 -0400, Paul wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 10/3/2024 10:46 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> I don't know about Linux, but Windows 11 cannot run programs that are
>>> used to read or create older documents, and if you put earlier versions
>>> on a new computer Microsoft won't let you run them. Windows XP, the
>>> 32-bit version anyway, should be made open source.
>>
>> Wasn't the source stolen ? Article is from four years ago.
>>
>> https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/25/21455655/microsoft-windows-xp-source-
> code-leak
>
> Well, if they won't let you use the real thing, I suppose a pirate copy
> will do. But it's the attitude of companies like that that makes
> "digitisation" a very insecure and unreliable way of archiving documents.
>
>> All that you need, is a virtualization solution.
>
> From what I've heard from users, such solutions are clunky and
> unreliable.
>
> BTW what's the quickest way o updating the browser I'm using in Linux? It
> barfed on the link you gave, saying it wasn't a secure connection. Firfox
> for Windows lets me override that, but Firefox for Linux obviously
> doesn't, so I'd better update it.
>
>
I think there is a way because I am running latest Firefox against my
own (non https) sites

This is probably what I disabled years ago:

Preferences ->Privacy & security->HTTPS Only Mode

and select:

Don’t enable HTTPS-Only Mode

Then instead of flat out refusing to connect it gives you other options
IIRC.

--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

On 2024-10-03 10:46 p.m., Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 09:58:04 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-10-03 12:40 a.m., Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> Perhaps a law should be enacted that any computer software that is "no
>>> longer supported" should be made open source.
>>
>> It happens a lot but there is no law pushing for that. Nevertheless,
>> what you mentioned above is true albeit most hypothetical. In most
>> cases, even obsolete formats can be read by the new suites because there
>> is a converter built into the software. I imagine this was a problem in
>> the 90s with the format of 80s software which suddenly disappeared, but
>> it no longer seems to be true. Still, I agree that formats should be
>> open-source.
>
> I don't know about Linux, but Windows 11 cannot run programs that are
> used to read or create older documents, and if you put earlier
> versions on a new computer Microsoft won't let you run them. Windows
> XP, the 32-bit version anyway, should be made open source.

There is a compatibility mode in the new versions of Windows which do
indeed allow you to run old software. It was demonstrated that you can
fairly easily run software made even for Windows 3.0. Please produce a
few examples of old programs which don't run _at all_ in Windows 11, and
I'm sure that someone with some time on their hands will not only
install and run the software, but explain how to get it working.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On Fri, 10/4/2024 5:56 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Oct 2024 02:19:08 -0400, Paul wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 10/3/2024 10:46 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> I don't know about Linux, but Windows 11 cannot run programs that are
>>> used to read or create older documents, and if you put earlier versions
>>> on a new computer Microsoft won't let you run them. Windows XP, the
>>> 32-bit version anyway, should be made open source.
>>
>> Wasn't the source stolen ? Article is from four years ago.
>>
>> https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/25/21455655/microsoft-windows-xp-source-
> code-leak
>
> Well, if they won't let you use the real thing, I suppose a pirate copy
> will do. But it's the attitude of companies like that that makes
> "digitisation" a very insecure and unreliable way of archiving documents.
>
>> All that you need, is a virtualization solution.
>
> From what I've heard from users, such solutions are clunky and
> unreliable.
>
> BTW what's the quickest way o updating the browser I'm using in Linux? It
> barfed on the link you gave, saying it wasn't a secure connection. Firfox
> for Windows lets me override that, but Firefox for Linux obviously
> doesn't, so I'd better update it.

Did the line wrap where you are ?

Putting angles around them, at least for me, does not always help.

<https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/25/21455655/microsoft-windows-xp-source-code-leak>

*******

Ubuntu has a SNAP for the Firefox release. That's not a user-serviceable part.

Maybe a Nightly would be new enough ? I don't know whether a SNAP profile
and a nightly as a binary, handle profiles exactly the same way.

https://blog.nightly.mozilla.org/2019/01/14/moving-to-a-profile-per-install-architecture/

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/channel/desktop/

# If you visit that page from Linux, there is a Nightly at the bottom (I picked a 64 bit)
# They may update that page automatically, twice a day.

Name: firefox-133.0a1.en-US.linux-x86_64.tar.bz2
Size: 99,515,619 bytes (94 MiB)

Unpack the bz2 with archive manager. It makes a folder like ~/Downloads/firefox . Then
change directory (cd) to ~/Downloads/firefox, then run ./firefox

It creates its own profile, the first one in the list here is my demo.

bullwinkle@TARDIS:~/.mozilla/firefox$ ls -alt
total 36
drwx------ 16 bullwinkle bullwinkle 4096 Oct 4 11:09 nl5v1v1p.default-nightly
drwx------ 7 bullwinkle bullwinkle 4096 Oct 4 11:05 .
-rw-rw-r-- 1 bullwinkle bullwinkle 124 Oct 4 11:05 installs.ini
-rw-rw-r-- 1 bullwinkle bullwinkle 404 Oct 4 11:05 profiles.ini
drwx------ 3 bullwinkle bullwinkle 4096 Oct 4 11:05 'Crash Reports'
drwx------ 14 bullwinkle bullwinkle 4096 Oct 4 10:53 mzqexjie.default-release
drwx------ 4 bullwinkle bullwinkle 4096 Sep 27 02:51 ..
drwx------ 2 bullwinkle bullwinkle 4096 Sep 27 02:51 pk2ycwo4.default
drwx------ 2 bullwinkle bullwinkle 4096 Sep 27 02:51 'Pending Pings'

It is unlikely to auto-update the executable. Simply throw away the folder
you unpacked and download another, if you want a newer one. With any luck, it
will continue to use the "nl5v1v1p.default-nightly" type of profile.

You can import bookmarks from another folder, using the bookmark manager.

Paul

On Fri, 10/4/2024 8:34 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
> On 2024-10-03 10:46 p.m., Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 09:58:04 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-10-03 12:40 a.m., Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>> Perhaps a law should be enacted that any computer software that is "no
>>>> longer supported" should be made open source.
>>>
>>> It happens a lot but there is no law pushing for that. Nevertheless,
>>> what you mentioned above is true albeit most hypothetical. In most
>>> cases, even obsolete formats can be read by the new suites because there
>>> is a converter built into the software. I imagine this was a problem in
>>> the 90s with the format of 80s software which suddenly disappeared, but
>>> it no longer seems to be true. Still, I agree that formats should be
>>> open-source.
>>
>> I don't know about Linux, but Windows 11 cannot run programs that are
>> used to read or create older documents, and if you put earlier
>> versions on a new computer Microsoft won't let you run them. Windows
>> XP, the 32-bit version anyway, should be made open source.
>
> There is a compatibility mode in the new versions of Windows which do indeed allow you to run old software. It was demonstrated that you can fairly easily run software made even for Windows 3.0. Please produce a few examples of old programs which don't run _at all_ in Windows 11, and I'm sure that someone with some time on their hands will not only install and run the software, but explain how to get it working.
>

Windows 11 is 64 bit only, and cannot run programs with 16 bit installers
or programs with 16 bit code. This means some older games won't run.

windows 10 has a 32 bit edition, but that's a kind of "limited" OS when
you are trying to run a browser that is greedy for RAM. The 32 bit edition
can run an old copy of Doom. Maybe you install two copies of the OS,
on your disk drive (you're allowed and they use the same server-side license),
a 64-bit one (for browser work) and a 32-bit one
(where you do your WinXP era work), and then you have better odds
of getting some things to work.

Even when running the 32-bit one, as you say, the Compatibility Assistant
can make some things work, but it doesn't always succeed.

Paul

On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 12:45:38 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 04/10/2024 10:56, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> BTW what's the quickest way o updating the browser I'm using in Linux? It
>> barfed on the link you gave, saying it wasn't a secure connection. Firfox
>> for Windows lets me override that, but Firefox for Linux obviously
>> doesn't, so I'd better update it.
>>
>>
>I think there is a way because I am running latest Firefox against my
>own (non https) sites
>
>This is probably what I disabled years ago:
>
>Preferences ->Privacy & security->HTTPS Only Mode
>
>and select:
>
>Don’t enable HTTPS-Only Mode
>
>Then instead of flat out refusing to connect it gives you other options
>IIRC.

Thanks, but perhaps an updated version might work as well, though
perhaps it might be bloated and clunkly, like the Windows equivalent.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 08:34:34 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
wrote:

>> I don't know about Linux, but Windows 11 cannot run programs that are
>> used to read or create older documents, and if you put earlier
>> versions on a new computer Microsoft won't let you run them. Windows
>> XP, the 32-bit version anyway, should be made open source.
>
>There is a compatibility mode in the new versions of Windows which do
>indeed allow you to run old software. It was demonstrated that you can
>fairly easily run software made even for Windows 3.0. Please produce a
>few examples of old programs which don't run _at all_ in Windows 11, and
>I'm sure that someone with some time on their hands will not only
>install and run the software, but explain how to get it working.

A database program called "Inmagic" for one (there are several
others).

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 11:29:50 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

>On Fri, 10/4/2024 8:34 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>> On 2024-10-03 10:46 p.m., Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> I don't know about Linux, but Windows 11 cannot run programs that are
>>> used to read or create older documents, and if you put earlier
>>> versions on a new computer Microsoft won't let you run them. Windows
>>> XP, the 32-bit version anyway, should be made open source.
>>
>> There is a compatibility mode in the new versions of Windows which do indeed allow you to run old software. It was demonstrated that you can fairly easily run software made even for Windows 3.0. Please produce a few examples of old programs which don't run _at all_ in Windows 11, and I'm sure that someone with some time on their hands will not only install and run the software, but explain how to get it working.
>>
>
>Windows 11 is 64 bit only, and cannot run programs with 16 bit installers
>or programs with 16 bit code. This means some older games won't run.
>
>windows 10 has a 32 bit edition, but that's a kind of "limited" OS when
>you are trying to run a browser that is greedy for RAM. The 32 bit edition
>can run an old copy of Doom. Maybe you install two copies of the OS,
>on your disk drive (you're allowed and they use the same server-side license),
>a 64-bit one (for browser work) and a 32-bit one
>(where you do your WinXP era work), and then you have better odds
>of getting some things to work.

Which is why, when my Windows 7 laptop was stolen, I replaced it with
a second-hand Dell laptop with Windows 10 32-bit OS freshly installed.

Microsoft wants me to simply discard data that it has taken me 30
years to collect. If they do not want to make their newest OS capable
of running older programs, they should make the older versions open
source.

>
>Even when running the 32-bit one, as you say, the Compatibility Assistant
>can make some things work, but it doesn't always succeed.
>
> Paul

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 09:58:04 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
>wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps a law should be enacted that any computer software that is "no
>>> longer supported" should be made open source.
>>
>>It happens a lot but there is no law pushing for that. Nevertheless,
>>what you mentioned above is true albeit most hypothetical. In most
>>cases, even obsolete formats can be read by the new suites because there
>>is a converter built into the software. I imagine this was a problem in
>>the 90s with the format of 80s software which suddenly disappeared, but
>>it no longer seems to be true. Still, I agree that formats should be
>>open-source.
>
>I don't know about Linux, but Windows 11 cannot run programs that are
>used to read or create older documents, and if you put earlier
>versions on a new computer Microsoft won't let you run them. Windows
>XP, the 32-bit version anyway, should be made open source.

There was pretty complete source code to Win2000 that leaked to the
Internet. If I were M$, I wouldn't want it to be public domain, even
at 20+ years old. It's still the foundation of Win11Copilot, today.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 23:31:46 -0400, "186282@ud0s4.net"
<186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

>On 10/3/24 1:13 PM, Rich wrote:
>> In comp.os.linux.misc 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>> Optical disks - esp M-Disks - can LAST ... but they
>>> are LOW-DENSITY by today's defs by a BIG margin.
>>> It's also not clear if you'd be able to FIND a
>>> DVD reader device 25 years from now. Even most
>>> current PCs/laptops don't COME with those anymore.
>>
>> Which is exactly the problem.
>>
>> Your DVD 'media' might survive 1,000 years. But if you can't buy a DVD
>> reader for any price, all that 'media' is useless.
>>
>> We've already seen that issue before. Try to find a Zip disk or
>> SuperDisk drive. If any could be purchased, they would all be from
>> places like eBay and of questionable operational quality.
>
> I actually HAVE a gen-1 ZipDisk - parallel port.
> They were supposed to be The Future :-)
>
> Now nothing even comes with a parallel port.
> Does anybody sell a USB->DB25 Parallel ?

I put all by ZipDisks on CD-R, and have a directory on my current
computer with them on it as well.

I have another computer that still runs, but the monitor died, and i
was unable to replace it. It had an SCSI connection, which was
supposed to be the future. Has anyone seen anything with a SCSI port
recently?

Computer entropy is real.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:

>If I were M$, I wouldn't want it [Windows NT source code] to be public domain, even
>at 20+ years old. It's still the foundation of Win11Copilot, today.

Obviously, XP and other ancient OSes don't share any code with Win11 -
but the foundation of Vista was XP 64-bit/Server2003. Not in code so
much, to be sure, but in what was being re-implemented. So, the code
for any previous version going back to NT 3.1, would be something that
Microsoft would be protective of. There's a lot to this that gets
into intellectual property rights, open-source philosophy simply
doesn't apply to something still in production, there will come a time
when Winblows as we know it is old news, but that is still some
distance away.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 05/10/2024 in message <4ni1gjhb2adbl8uagkarl0ujb6cb3big8i@4ax.com> Joel
wrote:

>Obviously, XP and other ancient OSes don't share any code with Win11 -
>but the foundation of Vista was XP 64-bit/Server2003.

I can assure you that the Windows API used by Windows 98 is alive and well
and driving every Windows OS since then. Programs I wrote for Win 68 still
run perfectly well on Win 10/11. The only change has been the introduction
of 64 bit versions of the various DLLs.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.

"Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>On 05/10/2024 in message <4ni1gjhb2adbl8uagkarl0ujb6cb3big8i@4ax.com> Joel
>wrote:
>
>>Obviously, XP and other ancient OSes don't share any code with Win11 -
>>but the foundation of Vista was XP 64-bit/Server2003.
>
>I can assure you that the Windows API used by Windows 98 is alive and well
>and driving every Windows OS since then. Programs I wrote for Win 68 still
>run perfectly well on Win 10/11. The only change has been the introduction
>of 64 bit versions of the various DLLs.

I'm aware that the API isn't unique to NT.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 05/10/2024 in message <psq1gjpe77a03oqcs6qc2rr8d5ehkdlokk@4ax.com> Joel
wrote:

>"Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>On 05/10/2024 in message <4ni1gjhb2adbl8uagkarl0ujb6cb3big8i@4ax.com> Joel
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Obviously, XP and other ancient OSes don't share any code with Win11 -
>>>but the foundation of Vista was XP 64-bit/Server2003.
>>
>>I can assure you that the Windows API used by Windows 98 is alive and well
>>and driving every Windows OS since then. Programs I wrote for Win 68 still
>>run perfectly well on Win 10/11. The only change has been the introduction
>>of 64 bit versions of the various DLLs.
>
>
>I'm aware that the API isn't unique to NT.

Absolutely, the code is shared across all versions of Windows.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
You know it's cold outside when you go outside and it's cold.