Rust is laughable garbage.

Some jerk at Mozilla cobbles some shit together and it ends
up impressing his co-workers, all network "programmers" who
are the lowest of the low.

In time it ends up impressing a lot of other pseudo-programmers
and then we get the situation of today. Big fucking deal.

I certainly don't want that junk on my well-oiled Gentoo system,
but it's got to be there thanks to one single entity: libsvg.

Yep. I've got to install that entire Rust monstrosity just to
build a single fucking program: librsvg.

What is "librsvg?"

It's another product of the "progressive" GNOME folks:

https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/LibRsvg

GNOME is the shittiest DE imaginable. It resembles the dream
of some first-grade art student who has smoked a few joints
before class.

Of course these backward, security-obsessed, illiterati could
never use C. They need to earn their credibility by invoking
Rust.

Fuck Rust and fuck all those that support it.

--
Systemd: solving all the problems that you never knew you had.

Farley Flud wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Rust is laughable garbage.
>
> <rantsnip>

https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch01-03-hello-cargo.html

Cargo is Rust’s build system and package manager. Most Rustaceans use this
tool to manage their Rust projects because Cargo handles a lot of tasks for
you, such as building your code, downloading the libraries your code
depends on, and building those libraries. (We call the libraries that your
code needs dependencies.)

"Rustaceans" <chuckle>

--
The question is, why are politicians so eager to be president? What is it
about the job that makes it worth revealing, on national television, that
you have the ethical standards of a slime-coated piece of industrial waste?
-- Dave Barry, "On Presidential Politics"

On Sat, 21 Sep 2024 08:34:00 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

>
> Cargo is Rust’s build system and package manager. Most Rustaceans use this ...
> "Rustaceans" <chuckle>
>

Even more laughable are Rust "crates," which are analogous to libraries.

To build the tiny librsvg Rust requires the following crates (prepare
for a shock):

adler-1.0.2.crate
aho-corasick-1.1.2.crate
android_system_properties-0.1.5.crate
android-tzdata-0.1.1.crate
anes-0.1.6.crate
anstream-0.6.11.crate
anstyle-1.0.6.crate
anstyle-parse-0.2.3.crate
anstyle-query-1.0.2.crate
anstyle-wincon-3.0.2.crate
anyhow-1.0.79.crate
approx-0.5.1.crate
assert_cmd-2.0.13.crate
autocfg-1.1.0.crate
bit_field-0.10.2.crate
bitflags-1.3.2.crate
bitflags-2.4.2.crate
bit-set-0.5.3.crate
bit-vec-0.6.3.crate
block-0.1.6.crate
bstr-1.9.0.crate
bumpalo-3.14.0.crate
bytemuck-1.14.2.crate
byteorder-1.5.0.crate
cairo-rs-0.19.1.crate
cairo-sys-rs-0.19.1.crate
cast-0.3.0.crate
cc-1.0.83.crate
cfg-expr-0.15.6.crate
cfg-if-1.0.0.crate
chrono-0.4.33.crate
ciborium-0.2.2.crate
ciborium-io-0.2.2.crate
ciborium-ll-0.2.2.crate
clap-4.4.18.crate
clap_builder-4.4.18.crate
clap_complete-4.4.10.crate
clap_derive-4.4.7.crate
clap_lex-0.6.0.crate
colorchoice-1.0.0.crate
color_quant-1.1.0.crate
const-cstr-0.3.0.crate
core-foundation-sys-0.8.6.crate
crc32fast-1.3.2.crate
criterion-0.5.1.crate
criterion-plot-0.5.0.crate
crossbeam-deque-0.8.5.crate
crossbeam-epoch-0.9.18.crate
crossbeam-utils-0.8.19.crate
crunchy-0.2.2.crate
cssparser-0.31.2.crate
cssparser-macros-0.6.1.crate
cstr-0.2.11.crate
data-url-0.3.1.crate
deranged-0.3.11.crate
derive_more-0.99.17.crate
difflib-0.4.0.crate
dlib-0.5.2.crate
doc-comment-0.3.3.crate
dtoa-1.0.9.crate
dtoa-short-0.3.4.crate
either-1.9.0.crate
encoding_rs-0.8.33.crate
equivalent-1.0.1.crate
errno-0.3.8.crate
exr-1.72.0.crate
fastrand-2.0.1.crate
fdeflate-0.3.4.crate
flate2-1.0.28.crate
float-cmp-0.9.0.crate
flume-0.11.0.crate
fnv-1.0.7.crate
form_urlencoded-1.2.1.crate
futf-0.1.5.crate
futures-channel-0.3.30.crate
futures-core-0.3.30.crate
futures-executor-0.3.30.crate
futures-io-0.3.30.crate
futures-macro-0.3.30.crate
futures-task-0.3.30.crate
futures-util-0.3.30.crate
fxhash-0.2.1.crate
gdk-pixbuf-0.19.0.crate
gdk-pixbuf-sys-0.19.0.crate
getrandom-0.2.12.crate
gif-0.12.0.crate
gio-0.19.0.crate
gio-sys-0.19.0.crate
glib-0.19.0.crate
glib-macros-0.19.0.crate
glib-sys-0.19.0.crate
gobject-sys-0.19.0.crate
half-2.3.1.crate
hashbrown-0.14.3.crate
heck-0.4.1.crate
hermit-abi-0.3.5.crate
iana-time-zone-0.1.60.crate
iana-time-zone-haiku-0.1.2.crate
idna-0.5.0.crate
image-0.24.8.crate
indexmap-2.2.2.crate
is-terminal-0.4.10.crate
itertools-0.10.5.crate
itertools-0.12.1.crate
itoa-1.0.10.crate
jpeg-decoder-0.3.1.crate
js-sys-0.3.68.crate
language-tags-0.3.2.crate
lazy_static-1.4.0.crate
lebe-0.5.2.crate
libc-0.2.153.crate
libloading-0.8.1.crate
libm-0.2.8.crate
linked-hash-map-0.5.6.crate
linux-raw-sys-0.4.13.crate
locale_config-0.3.0.crate
lock_api-0.4.11.crate
log-0.4.20.crate
lopdf-0.32.0.crate
mac-0.1.1.crate
malloc_buf-0.0.6.crate
markup5ever-0.11.0.crate
matches-0.1.10.crate
matrixmultiply-0.3.8.crate
md5-0.7.0.crate
memchr-2.7.1.crate
minimal-lexical-0.2.1.crate
miniz_oxide-0.7.2.crate
nalgebra-0.32.3.crate
nalgebra-macros-0.2.1.crate
new_debug_unreachable-1.0.4.crate
nom-7.1.3.crate
normalize-line-endings-0.3.0.crate
num-complex-0.4.5.crate
num-conv-0.1.0.crate
num-integer-0.1.46.crate
num-rational-0.4.1.crate
num-traits-0.2.18.crate
objc-0.2.7.crate
objc-foundation-0.1.1.crate
objc_id-0.1.1.crate
once_cell-1.19.0.crate
oorandom-11.1.3.crate
pango-0.19.0.crate
pangocairo-0.19.1.crate
pangocairo-sys-0.19.0.crate
pango-sys-0.19.0.crate
parking_lot-0.12.1.crate
parking_lot_core-0.9.9.crate
paste-1.0.14.crate
percent-encoding-2.3.1.crate
phf-0.10.1.crate
phf-0.11.2.crate
phf_codegen-0.10.0.crate
phf_generator-0.10.0.crate
phf_generator-0.11.2.crate
phf_macros-0.11.2.crate
phf_shared-0.10.0.crate
phf_shared-0.11.2.crate
pin-project-lite-0.2.13.crate
pin-utils-0.1.0.crate
pkg-config-0.3.29.crate
plotters-0.3.5.crate
plotters-backend-0.3.5.crate
plotters-svg-0.3.5.crate
png-0.17.11.crate
powerfmt-0.2.0.crate
ppv-lite86-0.2.17.crate
precomputed-hash-0.1.1.crate
predicates-3.1.0.crate
predicates-core-1.0.6.crate
predicates-tree-1.0.9.crate
proc-macro2-1.0.78.crate
proc-macro-crate-3.1.0.crate
proptest-1.4.0.crate
qoi-0.4.1.crate
quick-error-1.2.3.crate
quick-error-2.0.1.crate
quote-1.0.35.crate
rand-0.8.5.crate
rand_chacha-0.3.1.crate
rand_core-0.6.4.crate
rand_xorshift-0.3.0.crate
rawpointer-0.2.1.crate
rayon-1.8.1.crate
rayon-core-1.12.1.crate
rctree-0.6.0.crate
redox_syscall-0.4.1.crate
regex-1.10.3.crate
regex-automata-0.4.5.crate
regex-syntax-0.8.2.crate
rgb-0.8.37.crate
rustix-0.38.31.crate
rusty-fork-0.3.0.crate
ryu-1.0.16.crate
safe_arch-0.7.1.crate
same-file-1.0.6.crate
scopeguard-1.2.0.crate
selectors-0.25.0.crate
serde-1.0.196.crate
serde_derive-1.0.196.crate
serde_json-1.0.113.crate
serde_spanned-0.6.5.crate
servo_arc-0.3.0.crate
simba-0.8.1.crate
simd-adler32-0.3.7.crate
siphasher-0.3.11.crate
slab-0.4.9.crate
smallvec-1.13.1.crate
spin-0.9.8.crate
stable_deref_trait-1.2.0.crate
string_cache-0.8.7.crate
string_cache_codegen-0.5.2.crate
strsim-0.10.0.crate
syn-1.0.109.crate
syn-2.0.48.crate
system-deps-6.2.0.crate
target-lexicon-0.12.13.crate
tempfile-3.10.0.crate
tendril-0.4.3.crate
termtree-0.4.1.crate
thiserror-1.0.56.crate
thiserror-impl-1.0.56.crate
tiff-0.9.1.crate
time-0.3.34.crate
time-core-0.1.2.crate
time-macros-0.2.17.crate
tinytemplate-1.2.1.crate
tinyvec-1.6.0.crate
tinyvec_macros-0.1.1.crate
toml-0.8.10.crate
toml_datetime-0.6.5.crate
toml_edit-0.21.1.crate
toml_edit-0.22.4.crate
typenum-1.17.0.crate
unarray-0.1.4.crate
unicode-bidi-0.3.15.crate
unicode-ident-1.0.12.crate
unicode-normalization-0.1.22.crate
url-2.5.0.crate
utf-8-0.7.6.crate
utf8parse-0.2.1.crate
version-compare-0.1.1.crate
wait-timeout-0.2.0.crate
walkdir-2.4.0.crate
wasi-0.11.0+wasi-snapshot-preview1.crate
wasm-bindgen-0.2.91.crate
wasm-bindgen-backend-0.2.91.crate
wasm-bindgen-macro-0.2.91.crate
wasm-bindgen-macro-support-0.2.91.crate
wasm-bindgen-shared-0.2.91.crate
web-sys-0.3.68.crate
weezl-0.1.8.crate
wide-0.7.15.crate
winapi-0.3.9.crate
winapi-i686-pc-windows-gnu-0.4.0.crate
winapi-util-0.1.6.crate
winapi-x86_64-pc-windows-gnu-0.4.0.crate
windows_aarch64_gnullvm-0.48.5.crate
windows_aarch64_gnullvm-0.52.0.crate
windows_aarch64_msvc-0.48.5.crate
windows_aarch64_msvc-0.52.0.crate
windows-core-0.52.0.crate
windows_i686_gnu-0.48.5.crate
windows_i686_gnu-0.52.0.crate
windows_i686_msvc-0.48.5.crate
windows_i686_msvc-0.52.0.crate
windows-sys-0.48.0.crate
windows-sys-0.52.0.crate
windows-targets-0.48.5.crate
windows-targets-0.52.0.crate
windows_x86_64_gnu-0.48.5.crate
windows_x86_64_gnu-0.52.0.crate
windows_x86_64_gnullvm-0.48.5.crate
windows_x86_64_gnullvm-0.52.0.crate
windows_x86_64_msvc-0.48.5.crate
windows_x86_64_msvc-0.52.0.crate
winnow-0.5.39.crate
xml5ever-0.17.0.crate
yeslogic-fontconfig-sys-4.0.1.crate
zune-inflate-0.2.54.crate

How do I know. Just do:

emerge -F librsvg

This downloads all things required to build the package.

--
Systemd: solving all the problems that you never knew you had.

Farley Flud wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sat, 21 Sep 2024 08:34:00 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Cargo is Rust’s build system and package manager. Most Rustaceans use this ...
>> "Rustaceans" <chuckle>
>
> Even more laughable are Rust "crates," which are analogous to libraries.
>
> To build the tiny librsvg Rust requires the following crates (prepare
> for a shock):
>
> adler-1.0.2.crate
> aho-corasick-1.1.2.crate
> android_system_properties-0.1.5.crate
> android-tzdata-0.1.1.crate
> anes-0.1.6.crate
> anstream-0.6.11.crate
> anstyle-1.0.6.crate
> anstyle-parse-0.2.3.crate
> anstyle-query-1.0.2.crate
> anstyle-wincon-3.0.2.crate
> anyhow-1.0.79.crate
> approx-0.5.1.crate
> assert_cmd-2.0.13.crate
> autocfg-1.1.0.crate
> bit_field-0.10.2.crate
> bitflags-1.3.2.crate
> bitflags-2.4.2.crate
> bit-set-0.5.3.crate
> bit-vec-0.6.3.crate
> block-0.1.6.crate
> bstr-1.9.0.crate
> bumpalo-3.14.0.crate
> bytemuck-1.14.2.crate
> byteorder-1.5.0.crate
> cairo-rs-0.19.1.crate
> cairo-sys-rs-0.19.1.crate
> cast-0.3.0.crate
> cc-1.0.83.crate
> cfg-expr-0.15.6.crate
> cfg-if-1.0.0.crate
> chrono-0.4.33.crate
> ciborium-0.2.2.crate
> ciborium-io-0.2.2.crate
> ciborium-ll-0.2.2.crate
> clap-4.4.18.crate
> clap_builder-4.4.18.crate
> clap_complete-4.4.10.crate
> clap_derive-4.4.7.crate
> clap_lex-0.6.0.crate
> colorchoice-1.0.0.crate
> color_quant-1.1.0.crate
> const-cstr-0.3.0.crate
> core-foundation-sys-0.8.6.crate
> crc32fast-1.3.2.crate
> criterion-0.5.1.crate
> criterion-plot-0.5.0.crate
> crossbeam-deque-0.8.5.crate
> crossbeam-epoch-0.9.18.crate
> crossbeam-utils-0.8.19.crate
> crunchy-0.2.2.crate
> cssparser-0.31.2.crate
> cssparser-macros-0.6.1.crate
> cstr-0.2.11.crate
> data-url-0.3.1.crate
> deranged-0.3.11.crate
> derive_more-0.99.17.crate
> difflib-0.4.0.crate
> dlib-0.5.2.crate
> doc-comment-0.3.3.crate
> dtoa-1.0.9.crate
> dtoa-short-0.3.4.crate
> either-1.9.0.crate
> encoding_rs-0.8.33.crate
> equivalent-1.0.1.crate
> errno-0.3.8.crate
> exr-1.72.0.crate
> fastrand-2.0.1.crate
> fdeflate-0.3.4.crate
> flate2-1.0.28.crate
> float-cmp-0.9.0.crate
> flume-0.11.0.crate
> fnv-1.0.7.crate
> form_urlencoded-1.2.1.crate
> futf-0.1.5.crate
> futures-channel-0.3.30.crate
> futures-core-0.3.30.crate
> futures-executor-0.3.30.crate
> futures-io-0.3.30.crate
> futures-macro-0.3.30.crate
> futures-task-0.3.30.crate
> futures-util-0.3.30.crate
> fxhash-0.2.1.crate
> gdk-pixbuf-0.19.0.crate
> gdk-pixbuf-sys-0.19.0.crate
> getrandom-0.2.12.crate
> gif-0.12.0.crate
> gio-0.19.0.crate
> gio-sys-0.19.0.crate
> glib-0.19.0.crate
> glib-macros-0.19.0.crate
> glib-sys-0.19.0.crate
> gobject-sys-0.19.0.crate
> half-2.3.1.crate
> hashbrown-0.14.3.crate
> heck-0.4.1.crate
> hermit-abi-0.3.5.crate
> iana-time-zone-0.1.60.crate
> iana-time-zone-haiku-0.1.2.crate
> idna-0.5.0.crate
> image-0.24.8.crate
> indexmap-2.2.2.crate
> is-terminal-0.4.10.crate
> itertools-0.10.5.crate
> itertools-0.12.1.crate
> itoa-1.0.10.crate
> jpeg-decoder-0.3.1.crate
> js-sys-0.3.68.crate
> language-tags-0.3.2.crate
> lazy_static-1.4.0.crate
> lebe-0.5.2.crate
> libc-0.2.153.crate
> libloading-0.8.1.crate
> libm-0.2.8.crate
> linked-hash-map-0.5.6.crate
> linux-raw-sys-0.4.13.crate
> locale_config-0.3.0.crate
> lock_api-0.4.11.crate
> log-0.4.20.crate
> lopdf-0.32.0.crate
> mac-0.1.1.crate
> malloc_buf-0.0.6.crate
> markup5ever-0.11.0.crate
> matches-0.1.10.crate
> matrixmultiply-0.3.8.crate
> md5-0.7.0.crate
> memchr-2.7.1.crate
> minimal-lexical-0.2.1.crate
> miniz_oxide-0.7.2.crate
> nalgebra-0.32.3.crate
> nalgebra-macros-0.2.1.crate
> new_debug_unreachable-1.0.4.crate
> nom-7.1.3.crate
> normalize-line-endings-0.3.0.crate
> num-complex-0.4.5.crate
> num-conv-0.1.0.crate
> num-integer-0.1.46.crate
> num-rational-0.4.1.crate
> num-traits-0.2.18.crate
> objc-0.2.7.crate
> objc-foundation-0.1.1.crate
> objc_id-0.1.1.crate
> once_cell-1.19.0.crate
> oorandom-11.1.3.crate
> pango-0.19.0.crate
> pangocairo-0.19.1.crate
> pangocairo-sys-0.19.0.crate
> pango-sys-0.19.0.crate
> parking_lot-0.12.1.crate
> parking_lot_core-0.9.9.crate
> paste-1.0.14.crate
> percent-encoding-2.3.1.crate
> phf-0.10.1.crate
> phf-0.11.2.crate
> phf_codegen-0.10.0.crate
> phf_generator-0.10.0.crate
> phf_generator-0.11.2.crate
> phf_macros-0.11.2.crate
> phf_shared-0.10.0.crate
> phf_shared-0.11.2.crate
> pin-project-lite-0.2.13.crate
> pin-utils-0.1.0.crate
> pkg-config-0.3.29.crate
> plotters-0.3.5.crate
> plotters-backend-0.3.5.crate
> plotters-svg-0.3.5.crate
> png-0.17.11.crate
> powerfmt-0.2.0.crate
> ppv-lite86-0.2.17.crate
> precomputed-hash-0.1.1.crate
> predicates-3.1.0.crate
> predicates-core-1.0.6.crate
> predicates-tree-1.0.9.crate
> proc-macro2-1.0.78.crate
> proc-macro-crate-3.1.0.crate
> proptest-1.4.0.crate
> qoi-0.4.1.crate
> quick-error-1.2.3.crate
> quick-error-2.0.1.crate
> quote-1.0.35.crate
> rand-0.8.5.crate
> rand_chacha-0.3.1.crate
> rand_core-0.6.4.crate
> rand_xorshift-0.3.0.crate
> rawpointer-0.2.1.crate
> rayon-1.8.1.crate
> rayon-core-1.12.1.crate
> rctree-0.6.0.crate
> redox_syscall-0.4.1.crate
> regex-1.10.3.crate
> regex-automata-0.4.5.crate
> regex-syntax-0.8.2.crate
> rgb-0.8.37.crate
> rustix-0.38.31.crate
> rusty-fork-0.3.0.crate
> ryu-1.0.16.crate
> safe_arch-0.7.1.crate
> same-file-1.0.6.crate
> scopeguard-1.2.0.crate
> selectors-0.25.0.crate
> serde-1.0.196.crate
> serde_derive-1.0.196.crate
> serde_json-1.0.113.crate
> serde_spanned-0.6.5.crate
> servo_arc-0.3.0.crate
> simba-0.8.1.crate
> simd-adler32-0.3.7.crate
> siphasher-0.3.11.crate
> slab-0.4.9.crate
> smallvec-1.13.1.crate
> spin-0.9.8.crate
> stable_deref_trait-1.2.0.crate
> string_cache-0.8.7.crate
> string_cache_codegen-0.5.2.crate
> strsim-0.10.0.crate
> syn-1.0.109.crate
> syn-2.0.48.crate
> system-deps-6.2.0.crate
> target-lexicon-0.12.13.crate
> tempfile-3.10.0.crate
> tendril-0.4.3.crate
> termtree-0.4.1.crate
> thiserror-1.0.56.crate
> thiserror-impl-1.0.56.crate
> tiff-0.9.1.crate
> time-0.3.34.crate
> time-core-0.1.2.crate
> time-macros-0.2.17.crate
> tinytemplate-1.2.1.crate
> tinyvec-1.6.0.crate
> tinyvec_macros-0.1.1.crate
> toml-0.8.10.crate
> toml_datetime-0.6.5.crate
> toml_edit-0.21.1.crate
> toml_edit-0.22.4.crate
> typenum-1.17.0.crate
> unarray-0.1.4.crate
> unicode-bidi-0.3.15.crate
> unicode-ident-1.0.12.crate
> unicode-normalization-0.1.22.crate
> url-2.5.0.crate
> utf-8-0.7.6.crate
> utf8parse-0.2.1.crate
> version-compare-0.1.1.crate
> wait-timeout-0.2.0.crate
> walkdir-2.4.0.crate
> wasi-0.11.0+wasi-snapshot-preview1.crate
> wasm-bindgen-0.2.91.crate
> wasm-bindgen-backend-0.2.91.crate
> wasm-bindgen-macro-0.2.91.crate
> wasm-bindgen-macro-support-0.2.91.crate
> wasm-bindgen-shared-0.2.91.crate
> web-sys-0.3.68.crate
> weezl-0.1.8.crate
> wide-0.7.15.crate
> winapi-0.3.9.crate
> winapi-i686-pc-windows-gnu-0.4.0.crate
> winapi-util-0.1.6.crate
> winapi-x86_64-pc-windows-gnu-0.4.0.crate
> windows_aarch64_gnullvm-0.48.5.crate
> windows_aarch64_gnullvm-0.52.0.crate
> windows_aarch64_msvc-0.48.5.crate
> windows_aarch64_msvc-0.52.0.crate
> windows-core-0.52.0.crate
> windows_i686_gnu-0.48.5.crate
> windows_i686_gnu-0.52.0.crate
> windows_i686_msvc-0.48.5.crate
> windows_i686_msvc-0.52.0.crate
> windows-sys-0.48.0.crate
> windows-sys-0.52.0.crate
> windows-targets-0.48.5.crate
> windows-targets-0.52.0.crate
> windows_x86_64_gnu-0.48.5.crate
> windows_x86_64_gnu-0.52.0.crate
> windows_x86_64_gnullvm-0.48.5.crate
> windows_x86_64_gnullvm-0.52.0.crate
> windows_x86_64_msvc-0.48.5.crate
> windows_x86_64_msvc-0.52.0.crate
> winnow-0.5.39.crate
> xml5ever-0.17.0.crate
> yeslogic-fontconfig-sys-4.0.1.crate
> zune-inflate-0.2.54.crate
>
> How do I know. Just do:
>
> emerge -F librsvg
>
> This downloads all things required to build the package.

On 9/21/24 8:03 AM, Farley Flud wrote:
> Rust is laughable garbage.
>
> Some jerk at Mozilla cobbles some shit together and it ends
> up impressing his co-workers, all network "programmers" who
> are the lowest of the low.

Look ... 'Rust' is really no better, or worse, than
a LOT of existing computer languages. If you LIKE
its vibe, USE it. If not, DON'T

Python wasn't always popular. Took time to build
a real following.

Me, I'd rather use 'C' ... which was a brand new
language when I got into computers - it was the
Cool New Thing on PDP-11s. However the syntax IS,
and especially can be MADE, a bit obscure. More
'obvious', 'self-documenting' langs DO have an
advantage.

Still have my K&R 'C' book - and stick pretty
much TOO it. I'd also rec "Algorithms in 'C'"
by Sedgewick. STILL consult that.

But my #1 fave is still Pascal. Poetry :-)
Thank you professor Wirth !

Oh, "network programming" is HARD ... those people
are NOT the "lowest of the low" by any means. The
whole Modern World depends on them.

But then you're just trying to start flames,
aren't you ? Try being more productive.

Hey, want "Real Computing" ? Try FORTRAN
or COBOL. THOSE were the foundation and
persist to this day. Wrote a FORTRAN app
just a couple of years ago - mostly to vex
the New Guys. Also a short COBOL app, that
oughtta REALLY give 'em the shits ! :-)

On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 02:45:16 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> Still have my K&R 'C' book ...

Would hope you have caught up with C99, at least.

> Oh, "network programming" is HARD ...

Not that hard. Some of us do it every day.

<https://gitlab.com/ldo/ssl_try_python/>

> Wrote a FORTRAN app just a couple of years ago ...

Did you use a suitably recent version of Fortran, namely Fortran 90 at
least? It’s quite a decent language these days.

On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 9/21/24 8:03 AM, Farley Flud wrote:
>> Rust is laughable garbage.
>>
>> Some jerk at Mozilla cobbles some shit together and it ends
>> up impressing his co-workers, all network "programmers" who
>> are the lowest of the low.
>
> Look ... 'Rust' is really no better, or worse, than
> a LOT of existing computer languages. If you LIKE
> its vibe, USE it. If not, DON'T
>
> Python wasn't always popular. Took time to build
> a real following.
>
> Me, I'd rather use 'C' ... which was a brand new
> language when I got into computers - it was the
> Cool New Thing on PDP-11s. However the syntax IS,
> and especially can be MADE, a bit obscure. More
> 'obvious', 'self-documenting' langs DO have an
> advantage.
>
> Still have my K&R 'C' book - and stick pretty
> much TOO it. I'd also rec "Algorithms in 'C'"
> by Sedgewick. STILL consult that.
>
> But my #1 fave is still Pascal. Poetry :-)
> Thank you professor Wirth !
>
> Oh, "network programming" is HARD ... those people
> are NOT the "lowest of the low" by any means. The
> whole Modern World depends on them.
>
> But then you're just trying to start flames,
> aren't you ? Try being more productive.
>
> Hey, want "Real Computing" ? Try FORTRAN
> or COBOL. THOSE were the foundation and
> persist to this day. Wrote a FORTRAN app
> just a couple of years ago - mostly to vex
> the New Guys. Also a short COBOL app, that
> oughtta REALLY give 'em the shits ! :-)
>

Messages like this give me the vibe of an old distinguished professor
writing. These types of messages tend to completely melt the troll in me.
;)

On 9/24/24 08:17, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 02:45:16 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> Still have my K&R 'C' book ...
>
> Would hope you have caught up with C99, at least.
>
>> Oh, "network programming" is HARD ...
>
> Not that hard. Some of us do it every day.
>
> <https://gitlab.com/ldo/ssl_try_python/>
>
>> Wrote a FORTRAN app just a couple of years ago ...
>
> Did you use a suitably recent version of Fortran, namely Fortran 90 at
> least? It’s quite a decent language these days.

We can all do network programming. The art is making it secure and
resilient.

Not the kind of thing you want a sloppy application developer like me
going anywhere near, which is why I choose to avoid it whenever
possible, and to use services that hide the complexity, as far as possible.

On 2024-09-24, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
> On 9/21/24 8:03 AM, Farley Flud wrote:
>> Rust is laughable garbage.
>>
> Look ... 'Rust' is really no better, or worse, than
> a LOT of existing computer languages. If you LIKE
> its vibe, USE it. If not, DON'T
>
> Python wasn't always popular. Took time to build
> a real following.
>
> Me, I'd rather use 'C' ... which was a brand new
> language when I got into computers - it was the
> Cool New Thing on PDP-11s. However the syntax IS,
> and especially can be MADE, a bit obscure. More
> 'obvious', 'self-documenting' langs DO have an
> advantage.
>

100% with this last poster, and in my opinion any compiled systems
language is better than any BS scripting language like those people
"writing" 'system' programs for systems on a scripting language like
"python" may as well use bash as well :D :D. See there are opinion of
all kind.. boils down to, use in your computer what you think is better,
recompile the kernel, make your own kernel flavor, or fork is the beauty
of the world of free software. I for example never use python for a
system program always look for C/C++/Go/Rust... etc scripting languages
I use to patch shit up and write scripts.

Happy Hacking
ReK2

On 23/09/2024 23:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>   Hey, want "Real Computing" ? Try FORTRAN
>   or COBOL. THOSE were the foundation and
>   persist to this day. Wrote a FORTRAN app
>   just a couple of years ago - mostly to vex
>   the New Guys. Also a short COBOL app, that
>   oughtta REALLY give 'em the shits !  :-)

Back in 1985, I changed jobs from a University computer center, where we
did our technical documentation using Univac's @DOC processor, to a
small industrial computer system integration firm, where we built
real-time systems on RSX-11M. I missed the @DOC so much that I wrote a
re-implementation in FORTRAN IV. Used it for years afterwards, until I
landed at a larger house doing communications work on Unix, and switched
to /troff/.

Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:

> On 23/09/2024 23:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
> > Hey, want "Real Computing" ? Try FORTRAN
> > or COBOL. THOSE were the foundation and
> > persist to this day. Wrote a FORTRAN app
> > just a couple of years ago - mostly to vex
> > the New Guys. Also a short COBOL app, that
> > oughtta REALLY give 'em the shits ! :-)
>
> Back in 1985, I changed jobs from a University computer center, where we
> did our technical documentation using Univac's @DOC processor, to a
> small industrial computer system integration firm, where we built
> real-time systems on RSX-11M. I missed the @DOC so much that I wrote a
> re-implementation in FORTRAN IV. Used it for years afterwards, until I
> landed at a larger house doing communications work on Unix, and switched
> to /troff/.
>

No mention of ALGOL, the ALGorithmic Language? It was contemporaneous
with both FORmula TRANslator and COmmon Business-Oriented Language.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL>

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS, Pro Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 05:26:19 -0700, Lars Poulsen wrote:

> On 23/09/2024 23:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>   Hey, want "Real Computing" ? Try FORTRAN or COBOL. THOSE were the
>>   foundation and persist to this day. Wrote a FORTRAN app just a
>>   couple of years ago - mostly to vex the New Guys. Also a short
>>   COBOL app, that oughtta REALLY give 'em the shits !  :-)
>
> Back in 1985, I changed jobs from a University computer center, where we
> did our technical documentation using Univac's @DOC processor, to a
> small industrial computer system integration firm, where we built
> real-time systems on RSX-11M. I missed the @DOC so much that I wrote a
> re-implementation in FORTRAN IV. Used it for years afterwards, until I
> landed at a larger house doing communications work on Unix, and switched
> to /troff/.

I can't remember who originally wrote it, but I came across a version of
'ed' (the standard UNIX editor, none of this visual stuff) written in
FORTRAN.

I made it work on a GEORGE 3 ICL system, and on something else. It was
infinitely superior to the manufacturer's offering.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

On 24/09/2024 14:11, Sn!pe wrote:

>
> No mention of ALGOL, the ALGorithmic Language? It was contemporaneous
> with both FORmula TRANslator and COmmon Business-Oriented Language.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL>
>
If you look at Algol, it really spawned the likes of B, C, and Pascal
and so on . Its use of local variables being a key feature. They
completely replaced it.

FORTRAN became the start of BASIC.

COBOL was really a standalone thing. You might say SQL owes it some homage.

--
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

On 24/09/2024 16:46, rek2 hispagatos wrote:
> On 2024-09-24, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>> On 9/21/24 8:03 AM, Farley Flud wrote:
>>> Rust is laughable garbage.
>>>
>> Look ... 'Rust' is really no better, or worse, than
>> a LOT of existing computer languages. If you LIKE
>> its vibe, USE it. If not, DON'T
>>
>> Python wasn't always popular. Took time to build
>> a real following.
>>
>> Me, I'd rather use 'C' ... which was a brand new
>> language when I got into computers - it was the
>> Cool New Thing on PDP-11s. However the syntax IS,
>> and especially can be MADE, a bit obscure. More
>> 'obvious', 'self-documenting' langs DO have an
>> advantage.
>>
>
> 100% with this last poster, and in my opinion any compiled systems
> language is better than any BS scripting language like those people
> "writing" 'system' programs for systems on a scripting language like
> "python" may as well use bash as well :D :D. See there are opinion of
> all kind.. boils down to, use in your computer what you think is better,
> recompile the kernel, make your own kernel flavor, or fork is the beauty
> of the world of free software. I for example never use python for a
> system program always look for C/C++/Go/Rust... etc scripting languages
> I use to patch shit up and write scripts.
>
In the beginning, there was FORTRAN and BASIC, But Lo, the Angel of the
Code came down ands said 'thou shalt receive great blessing and speak
directly to the Hardware, if thou learn Microprocessor Assembler. And
Lo it was so, and got me many shekels, but then The Angel Gabriel
whispered in my ear that 'C' was almost as good but ten times faster to
write, and in my desire for even more shekels per week I did learn it,
and so it was.

The devil tempted me to write in satanic scripts, like bash, PERL,
regexp, python and sorely tempted me with Pascal.

But I stayed with the One True Kernighan and Ritchie, and my programs
multiplied and prospered.

Only latterly have I given into temptation to learn as little PHP and
JavaScript as possible, to construct web sites with. Truly they are both
Satan's spawn.

--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 02:45:16 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> But my #1 fave is still Pascal. Poetry
> Thank you professor Wirth !

It isn't my favorite but Pascal wasn't bad after some real world additions
took it out of the academic world sort of like the impurities introduced
into common lisp made it usable.

U of Maine used Pascal for a didactic language. Sprague Electric tended to
hire UM graduates. Pascal wasn't great for automated testing, process
control, or robotic arm manipulators so I had some good paydays writing
modules they could use.

> Hey, want "Real Computing" ? Try FORTRAN or COBOL. THOSE were the
> foundation and persist to this day. Wrote a FORTRAN app just a couple
> of years ago - mostly to vex the New Guys. Also a short COBOL app,
> that oughtta REALLY give 'em the shits !

FORTRAN IV was my first language This spring our department moved and in
the process I found some of my old books that I hadn't used in years. I
realized the F77 book was as hopelessly out of date as the C++ books,
including an early Stroustrup. The Java book from the '90s was a slender
little thing compared to the huge later additions, and the Python 2.x
references weren't too useful.

otoh, the C and POSIX books were as valid as ever.

On 2024-09-24, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

> On 9/21/24 8:03 AM, Farley Flud wrote:
>
>> Rust is laughable garbage.
>>
>> Some jerk at Mozilla cobbles some shit together and it ends
>> up impressing his co-workers, all network "programmers" who
>> are the lowest of the low.
>
> Look ... 'Rust' is really no better, or worse, than
> a LOT of existing computer languages. If you LIKE
> its vibe, USE it. If not, DON'T

My philosophy exactly. But if you want to write in the
langue du jour, make sure there's a compiler for any
machine you might conceivably want to port it to.
Meanwhile, leave me alone to write in the language
that I want (usually C).

> Python wasn't always popular. Took time to build
> a real following.
>
> Me, I'd rather use 'C' ... which was a brand new
> language when I got into computers - it was the
> Cool New Thing on PDP-11s. However the syntax IS,
> and especially can be MADE, a bit obscure. More
> 'obvious', 'self-documenting' langs DO have an
> advantage.

Is the IOCCC still active? If you're going to write
obscure code, you might as well have fun. But as the
old saying goes, Real Programmers can write FORTRAN in
any language. I've seen unreadable code in languages
which are praised for their readability. But what really
frosts me is people who say that their favourite language
is so readable that you don't need comments. Grrr...

> Still have my K&R 'C' book - and stick pretty
> much TOO it. I'd also rec "Algorithms in 'C'"
> by Sedgewick. STILL consult that.

I don't pull it down that often, but my good old
K&R is still on the shelf in case I need it.

> But my #1 fave is still Pascal. Poetry :-)
> Thank you professor Wirth !

I've never had good chemistry with Wirthian languages,
and have hated them all sinc day one. Too much bondage
and discipline for me, especially when I can do what I
want in a couple of lines of assembly language (or C
these days) without some snotty compiler slapping my
hand and saying I can't do that.

> Oh, "network programming" is HARD ... those people
> are NOT the "lowest of the low" by any means. The
> whole Modern World depends on them.

Once I got network programming figured out, I wrote my
own library of functions that set everything up the way
I want it (including SSH and TLS). Sure, you have to
watch your step sometimes, but it's not quite as bad
as people make it out to be.

> But then you're just trying to start flames,
> aren't you ? Try being more productive.
>
> Hey, want "Real Computing" ? Try FORTRAN
> or COBOL. THOSE were the foundation and
> persist to this day. Wrote a FORTRAN app
> just a couple of years ago - mostly to vex
> the New Guys. Also a short COBOL app, that
> oughtta REALLY give 'em the shits ! :-)

And if that doesn't work, show them a little RPG.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 02:45:16 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

>
> Me, I'd rather use 'C' ... which was a brand new
> language when I got into computers - it was the
> Cool New Thing on PDP-11s. However the syntax IS,
> and especially can be MADE, a bit obscure. More
> 'obvious', 'self-documenting' langs DO have an
> advantage.
>

C is just shorthand for assembly, and assembly,
i.e. machine, language is the language to which
EVERYTHING else reduces.

Yes, C is just shorthand for assembly. Whenever I
write C code I can always "see" the assembly instructions
that lie beneath every C statement.

In fact, when it comes to SIMD programming, there are C
functions known as "intrinsics" that allow direct access
to SIMD hardware assembly instruction (e.g. SSE2, AVX).
(These do not exist for any other language.)

Conclusion:

Those who understand the machine use C (assembly) and only
C.

All dumb-fuck idiots and retards, of which there are hordes
in commercial (i.e. paid) programming, MUST use other "crutch"
languages.

--
Systemd: solving all the problems that you never knew you had.

On 24/09/2024 19:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> I've never had good chemistry with Wirthian languages,
> and have hated them all sinc day one. Too much bondage
> and discipline for me, especially when I can do what I
> want in a couple of lines of assembly language (or C
> these days) without some snotty compiler slapping my
> hand and saying I can't do that.

I had to rewrite shit loads of Pascal into C because I couldn't figure
out how to say 'load the 512byre sector, the first two bytes represent a
16 bit number, the next 4 bytes might be a number if the first byte was
X or they might be the start of a sttring if...

The declaration of unions of structures that *might* be what te sector
represented were simply so cumbersome as to be useless.

In C I simply cast the operators...

Those that can, write C,. those that cant are forever looking for a
language that will program better than they can.

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

On 24 Sep 2024 17:49:41 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> otoh, the C and POSIX books were as valid as ever.

Assuming the C book covered C99 (or later). Otherwise it would be
seriously out of date.

On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 17:04:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Only latterly have I given into temptation to learn as little PHP and
> JavaScript as possible, to construct web sites with. Truly they are both
> Satan's spawn.

Let’s just say, there is a book called “JavaScript: The Good Parts”. There
is no book called “PHP: the Good Parts”.

In article <llfsmdFmmqaU8@mid.individual.net>,
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 05:26:19 -0700, Lars Poulsen wrote:
>> On 23/09/2024 23:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>   Hey, want "Real Computing" ? Try FORTRAN or COBOL. THOSE were the
>>>   foundation and persist to this day. Wrote a FORTRAN app just a
>>>   couple of years ago - mostly to vex the New Guys. Also a short
>>>   COBOL app, that oughtta REALLY give 'em the shits !  :-)
>>
>> Back in 1985, I changed jobs from a University computer center, where we
>> did our technical documentation using Univac's @DOC processor, to a
>> small industrial computer system integration firm, where we built
>> real-time systems on RSX-11M. I missed the @DOC so much that I wrote a
>> re-implementation in FORTRAN IV. Used it for years afterwards, until I
>> landed at a larger house doing communications work on Unix, and switched
>> to /troff/.
>
>I can't remember who originally wrote it, but I came across a version of
>'ed' (the standard UNIX editor, none of this visual stuff) written in
>FORTRAN.

The first "Software Tools" book by Kernighan and Plauger was
written using "ratfor" as the example language; `ratfor` is a
"rational FORTRAN" frontend that took a semi-structured language
as input and emitted properly-formed FORTRAN code as output.

They implemeneted an ed-like editor in ratfor for Software
Tools. It wouldn't surprise me if the editor you saw was that,
or something derived from it.

>I made it work on a GEORGE 3 ICL system, and on something else. It was
>infinitely superior to the manufacturer's offering.

Cool.

- Dan C.

On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 14:11:19 +0100, Sn!pe wrote:

> No mention of ALGOL, the ALGorithmic Language? It was contemporaneous
> with both FORmula TRANslator and COmmon Business-Oriented Language.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL>

ALGOL's impact on succeeding languages was much greater than its actual
use.

Lars Poulsen wrote:
> On 23/09/2024 23:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>    Hey, want "Real Computing" ? Try FORTRAN
>>    or COBOL. THOSE were the foundation and
>>    persist to this day. Wrote a FORTRAN app
>>    just a couple of years ago - mostly to vex
>>    the New Guys. Also a short COBOL app, that
>>    oughtta REALLY give 'em the shits !  :-)
>
> Back in 1985, I changed jobs from a University computer center, where we
> did our technical documentation using Univac's @DOC processor, to a
> small industrial computer system integration firm, where we built
> real-time systems on RSX-11M. I missed the @DOC so much that I wrote a
> re-implementation in FORTRAN IV. Used it for years afterwards, until I
> landed at a larger house doing communications work on Unix, and switched
> to /troff/.
>

I wrote a program which converted @doc to html at one point, that was
probably around 2005. One thing it could not handle was figures, I had
to convert them by hand. It will have been written in @FTN or @ACOB,
using the SYSLIB INFOR$ and SDFI interfaces, I abandoned it when I ran
out of DOC elements to convert.

rbowman wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 14:11:19 +0100, Sn!pe wrote:
>
>> No mention of ALGOL, the ALGorithmic Language? It was contemporaneous
>> with both FORmula TRANslator and COmmon Business-Oriented Language.
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL>
>
> ALGOL's impact on succeeding languages was much greater than its actual
> use.
>

ALGOL60 was the language where a test of equality between two floating
point numbers was actually a test of "close enough for ALGOL". If I
want to test for "approximately equal" then I want a different operator.
How well did it handle character strings? Any language which could not
handle them was a language I wanted no part of.

On 2024-09-24, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 24/09/2024 14:11, Sn!pe wrote:
>
>> No mention of ALGOL, the ALGorithmic Language? It was contemporaneous
>> with both FORmula TRANslator and COmmon Business-Oriented Language.
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL>
>
> If you look at Algol, it really spawned the likes of B, C, and Pascal
> and so on . Its use of local variables being a key feature. They
> completely replaced it.

At the risk of planting flame bait <nudge, nudge>, here in North
America Algol was generally considered the domain of computer
science weenies, while FORTRAN and COBOL were used for applications
in the Real World [tm] (science/engineering and business, respectively).
Oh, and don't forget RPG...

> FORTRAN became the start of BASIC.
>
> COBOL was really a standalone thing. You might say SQL owes it some homage.

So does PL/I (or is it PL/1 this week?), which allowed data structures
to be declared COBOL-style.

And in COBOL, if you don't want to write COBOL-style arithmetic expressions,
you can say "COMPUTE" followed by a FORTRAN-style expression.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut