On 8/4/24 10:34 PM, vallor wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 22:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <v8ovem$8t63$7@dont-email.me>:
>
>> On 4 Aug 2024 17:54:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
>>
>>> When I think of the average computer user, I think of my folks. (Dad
>>> just turned 84.) I'd love to get them on Linux, but they have a good
>>> chunk of their personal organizing locked up in MS Access databases.
>>
>> How about converting to SQLite and using LibreOffice Base as a frontend?
>> That gets you away from the limitations of Microsoft Access.
>
> That would mean throwing away umpteen databases and reports, developed
> over the span of decades. I don't think that's practicable.
>
> As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
>
> Went to buy a copy at Amazon, and MS Access 2010 seems to be
> the latest version. That can't be the latest version,
> can it? Is Microsoft abandoning Access?
>
Seems you can download the runtime and run apps. I'd give it a good chance you could not edit any
reports.
--
Linux Mint 21.3, Cinnamon 6.0.4, Kernel 5.15.0-117-generic
Al

On 5 Aug 2024 02:34:37 GMT, vallor wrote:
> Went to buy a copy at Amazon, and MS Access 2010 seems to be
> the latest version. That can't be the latest version,
> can it? Is Microsoft abandoning Access?

I regularly see ads from various sites offering perpetual licenses to
"Microsoft Office Pro" 2019 or 2021, which includes Access, for
somewhere between $30 and $60. Here's one that popped up when I
googled "Microsoft Office Pro" (with the quotes):

<https://www.pcworld.com/article/1957287/get-microsoft-office-pro-
plus-2021-for-just-40.html>

But what's wrong with the one you already have? I believe Office 2010
can be installed on 3 computers. It wouldn't hurt to try, anyway.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

In comp.os.linux.misc vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 22:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <v8ovem$8t63$7@dont-email.me>:
>> How about converting to SQLite and using LibreOffice Base as a frontend?
>> That gets you away from the limitations of Microsoft Access.
>
> That would mean throwing away umpteen databases and reports, developed
> over the span of decades. I don't think that's practicable.
>
> As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.

Some hints here for WINE, in case you haven't already seen:
https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=12

Seems you might need to use the "Winetricks" system to separately
install the database engine for the database system that you're
using with Access.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Stan Brown wrote:
> On 5 Aug 2024 02:34:37 GMT, vallor wrote:
>> Went to buy a copy at Amazon, and MS Access 2010 seems to be
>> the latest version. That can't be the latest version,
>> can it? Is Microsoft abandoning Access?
>
> I regularly see ads from various sites offering perpetual licenses to
> "Microsoft Office Pro" 2019 or 2021, which includes Access, for
> somewhere between $30 and $60. Here's one that popped up when I
> googled "Microsoft Office Pro" (with the quotes):
>
> <https://www.pcworld.com/article/1957287/get-microsoft-office-pro-
> plus-2021-for-just-40.html>
>
> But what's wrong with the one you already have? I believe Office 2010
> can be installed on 3 computers. It wouldn't hurt to try, anyway.
>
Office 2010 was one device and one portable device...i.e. not 3 devices.

<qp>
MICROSOFT OFFICE 2010
2. INSTALLATION AND USE RIGHTS.
a. One Copy per Device. You may install one copy of the software on one
device. That device is the “licensed device.”
b. Licensed Device. You may only use one copy of the software on the
licensed device at a time.
c. Portable Device. You may install another copy of the software on a
portable device for use by the single primary user of the licensed device.
d. Separation of Components. The components of the software are licensed
as a single unit. You may not separate the components and install them
on different devices.
</qp>

Thereafter, beginning with 2013 - one license, *only* one device.
- All stand-alone and any Office 365(later Microsoft 365) Personal,
Pro, Plus stand-alone.

Not to be confused with Microsoft 365(Office) Family(fka Home Premium,
then Home) subscription which provides a one license for the
owner-purchaser's use(with the same Microsoft Account on multiple
devices, but not at the same time) and 5 additional shared
licenses(invited by the owner's Microsoft account to another Microsoft
account)

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 13:38:23 +0100, Philip Herlihy wrote:

> It seems very unlikely that MS would abandon Access - there are just too
> many databases out there.

But if there is no more money to be made from it, why continue to invest?
Doesn’t matter how many users are already out there, if they are not
wanting to spend more money on it.

On 6 Aug 2024 08:47:36 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> In comp.os.linux.misc vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
>
>> As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
>
> Some hints here for WINE, in case you haven't already seen:
> https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=12
>
> Seems you might need to use the "Winetricks" system to separately
> install the database engine for the database system that you're using
> with Access.

Should stay up long enough, at least, so you can extract all the data and
convert the system to LibreOffice Base with your choice of DBMS backends.

On 7/31/24 1:30 AM, candycanearter07 wrote:
> John McCue <jmccue@hairball.jmcunx.com> wrote at 13:49 this Saturday (GMT):
>> followups trimmed to comp.os.linux.misc
>>
>> In comp.os.linux.misc yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> wrote:
>>> "26yh.0712" <26yh.0713@e6t5y.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> Ah ... wunnerful Winders :-)
>>>>
>>>> It should be banned as a socioeconomic WMD ...
>>>
>>> Imagine systemd swallowing package management, doing automagic
>>> security updates and such a "MSLinux" monoculture.
>>
>> I can see this happening, I think they just swallowed sudo.
>
> You mean polkit?
>
>>> Wouldn't that be similarly vulnerable?
>>
>> Maybe, any complex solution is open to vulnerabilities. I
>> think (hope) these changes would be tested better than
>> crowdstrike was. But as things get more complex, the harder
>> to test :(
>>
>> I still think these changes Red Hat is pushing is their way
>> to make things easier for admins, but to me, eventually you
>> end up with a Windows clone. Now I wonder if they will "AI"
>> systemd, I think it is possible since IBM seems to be
>> getting into AI.
>
> That sounds like a nightmare. AI Systems...

Once you get into it more than a little, "AI" becomes
something like "magic". It finds its patterns and
sense in ways humans can't comprehend and creates
software/rules/structure humans wouldn't - and thus
cannot properly understand.

On present trajectory, we're headed straight to
Hogwarts ....

The "AI" doesn't even have to be evil to be
extraordinarily dangerous.

Now open your spell-books to page 27 and don't
forget to flick your wands !

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 13:38:23 +0100, Philip Herlihy wrote:
>
>> It seems very unlikely that MS would abandon Access - there are just too
>> many databases out there.
>
> But if there is no more money to be made from it, why continue to invest?
> Doesn’t matter how many users are already out there, if they are not
> wanting to spend more money on it.
>

It's not being discontinued.
The latest stand-alone edition in suite or single application is 2021.

- The stand-alone 2024 LTSC(volume license only) commercial preview was
made available earlier this year(April). The RTM version later this
year. Likewise, the stand-alone perpetual consumer edition(Professional)
will also be released.
Access is **not** included stand-alone perpetual of Office
Home-Student or Home-Business

Access is also included in current subscription plans(already at 2024
version level)
- Currently available in business plans with Office/Microsoft 365,
Microsoft 365 Personal, and Microsoft 365 Family
=> latest is Version 2407 Build 17830.20138 released Aug 1, 2024

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 02:56:49 -0400, ...winston wrote:

> [Access is] not being discontinued.
> The latest stand-alone edition in suite or single application is 2021.

That’s pretty old, as I pointed out before.

> - The stand-alone 2024 LTSC(volume license only) commercial preview was
> made available earlier this year(April).

Not much use for home/personal users, is it?

> The RTM version later this
> year. Likewise, the stand-alone perpetual consumer edition(Professional)
> will also be released.

Still vapourware at this stage, then.

> Access is **not** included stand-alone perpetual of Office
> Home-Student or Home-Business

See what I mean?

> Access is also included in current subscription plans(already at 2024
> version level)

Precisely the kind of thing we want to avoid.

On Sun, 04 Aug 2024 22:39:44 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote
in <k5i0bjpnv01mncc0c2b8tpqbl28v171vfs@4ax.com>:

> On 5 Aug 2024 02:34:37 GMT, vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 22:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
>><ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <v8ovem$8t63$7@dont-email.me>:
>>
>>> On 4 Aug 2024 17:54:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
>>>
>>>> When I think of the average computer user, I think of my folks. (Dad
>>>> just turned 84.) I'd love to get them on Linux, but they have a good
>>>> chunk of their personal organizing locked up in MS Access databases.
>>>
>>> How about converting to SQLite and using LibreOffice Base as a
frontend?
>>> That gets you away from the limitations of Microsoft Access.
>>
>>That would mean throwing away umpteen databases and reports, developed
>>over the span of decades. I don't think that's practicable.
>>
>>As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
>>
>>Went to buy a copy at Amazon, and MS Access 2010 seems to be
>>the latest version. That can't be the latest version,
>>can it? Is Microsoft abandoning Access?
>
> "Microsoft Access 2021 is the latest version of Access available as a
one-time
> purchase. Previous versions include Access 2019, Access 2016, Access
2013,
> Access 2010, Access 2007, and Access 2003."
>
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/access
>
> I've never really used Access but it looks like it's still around.

Thanks for the heads-up. I got the installer for the latest standalone
through our Microsoft 365 Family license. (Had to talk to MS support chat
to get the installer download link, as the Windows links weren't showing
up on my Linux browser.)

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.11.0-rc2 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G

On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 00:26:09 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <v8rqj1$16a8l$2@dont-email.me>:

> On 6 Aug 2024 08:47:36 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
>> In comp.os.linux.misc vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
>>
>>> As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
>>
>> Some hints here for WINE, in case you haven't already seen:
>> https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=12
>>
>> Seems you might need to use the "Winetricks" system to separately
>> install the database engine for the database system that you're using
>> with Access.

Thank you Kev, I will check into that.

>
> Should stay up long enough, at least, so you can extract all the data
> and convert the system to LibreOffice Base with your choice of DBMS
> backends.

I've heard that LO Base has no where near the capabilities
of MS Access. Not sure how well their Access files would transfer
over to LO Base.

An alternative might be to import their Access data into Kexi:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
KEXI is a visual database applications builder. It can be used for
designing database applications, inserting and editing data,
performing queries, and processing data. Forms can be created to
provide a custom interface to your data. All database objects -
tables, queries, forms, reports - are stored in the database, making
it easy to share data and design.
.
KEXI is considered as a long awaited Open Source competitor for MS Access,
Filemaker and Oracle Forms. Its development is motivated by the lack of
Rapid Application Development (RAD) tools for database systems that are
sufficiently powerful, inexpensive, open standards driven and portable
across many operating systems and hardware platforms.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Kexi can import .mdb files. If the Access route doesn't yield fruit, that's
another option.

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.11.0-rc2 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G

On 7 Aug 2024 02:16:13 GMT, vallor wrote:

> I've heard that LO Base has no where near the capabilities of MS Access.

LibreOffice Base supports backends like MySQL/MariaDB and SQLite, either
of which goes way beyond the capabilities of Microsoft Access.

On 8/6/24 10:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On 7 Aug 2024 02:16:13 GMT, vallor wrote:
>
>> I've heard that LO Base has no where near the capabilities of MS Access.
>
> LibreOffice Base supports backends like MySQL/MariaDB and SQLite, either
> of which goes way beyond the capabilities of Microsoft Access.

Except Access had a nice WYSIWYG form builder.

Libre had that for AWHILE ... but not so much anymore.
It's 'database' is mostly a limited front-end for a
spreadsheet.

As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few
DBs using it over the years and it was quite capable.
You DO have to write a bit of code to reach those
capabilities however.

On 8/5/24 12:10 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Aug 2024 22:39:44 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:
>
>> "Microsoft Access 2021 is the latest version of Access available as a
>> one-time purchase. Previous versions include Access 2019, Access 2016,
>> Access 2013, Access 2010, Access 2007, and Access 2003."
>>
>> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/access
>>
>> I've never really used Access but it looks like it's still around.
>
> That seems very old. Is this because newer versions are cloud-only?

Actually, last I used it, you had to buy and
install ON your PC - it wasn't "cloud".

The latest Access ... um ... it looks to have
devolved into just another spreadsheet-style
SQL database. May as well use MySQL or the like
and dBeaver.

In short, like everything, M$ just RUINED Access.

On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 8/6/24 10:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On 7 Aug 2024 02:16:13 GMT, vallor wrote:
>>
>>> I've heard that LO Base has no where near the capabilities of MS
Access.
>>
>> LibreOffice Base supports backends like MySQL/MariaDB and SQLite,
either
>> of which goes way beyond the capabilities of Microsoft Access.
>
> Except Access had a nice WYSIWYG form builder.

For its time, maybe.

> Libre had that for AWHILE ... but not so much anymore.
> It's 'database' is mostly a limited front-end for a
> spreadsheet.

That’s the “Tables” view in the Databse. Besides that, you also have
“Queries”, “Forms” and “Reports”. Try it some time.

> As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few
> DBs using it over the years and it was quite capable.

Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.

In article <v8uc3b$1u86k$2@dont-email.me>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote...
>
> Not much use for home/personal users, is it?
>
>

It's for the sort of user who finds Excel too limiting. I think it's one of
Microsoft's greatest achievements, and I use it extensively.

--

Phil, London

On 06/08/2024 01:26, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On 6 Aug 2024 08:47:36 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
>> In comp.os.linux.misc vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
>>
>>> As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
>> Some hints here for WINE, in case you haven't already seen:
>> https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=12
>>
>> Seems you might need to use the "Winetricks" system to separately
>> install the database engine for the database system that you're using
>> with Access.
> Should stay up long enough, at least, so you can extract all the data and
> convert the system to LibreOffice Base with your choice of DBMS backends.
Users can import Access database in MS-SQL and access the data using
Excel with appropriate connector that is available from Microsoft.

MS-SQL Express edition is free for users. It is available for Windows,
Linux and Docker container. There is a learning curve for people who are
new to industry class databases but once this is passed, the user would
be quite happy to use it assuming he has mastery of creating Forms in
Excel. With forms you can post new entries and also retrieve the entries
like any databases including Access. There are many tutorials available
online and on YouTube.

<https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/sql-server/sql-server-downloads>

On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 12:59:10 +0000, Just Me wrote:

> Users can import Access database in MS-SQL and access the data using
> Excel with appropriate connector that is available from Microsoft.

Sure, if you don’t think Excel is a step down from a proper database ...

On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 12:38:00 +0100, Philip Herlihy wrote:

> I think it's one of Microsoft's greatest achievements ...

Calling Access “one of Microsoft’s greatest achievements” ... not the kind
of “praise” they would find flattering, I think ...

On 2024-08-07, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few
>> DBs using it over the years and it was quite capable.
>
> Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.

2GB ought to be enough for anybody. :-)

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On Wed, 07 Aug 2024 22:30:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-08-07, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few DBs using it over
>>> the years and it was quite capable.
>>
>> Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
>
> 2GB ought to be enough for anybody. :-)

Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
anybody”.

On 8/7/24 2:45 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> On 8/6/24 10:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On 7 Aug 2024 02:16:13 GMT, vallor wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've heard that LO Base has no where near the capabilities of MS
> Access.
>>>
>>> LibreOffice Base supports backends like MySQL/MariaDB and SQLite,
> either
>>> of which goes way beyond the capabilities of Microsoft Access.
>>
>> Except Access had a nice WYSIWYG form builder.
>
> For its time, maybe.
>
>> Libre had that for AWHILE ... but not so much anymore.
>> It's 'database' is mostly a limited front-end for a
>> spreadsheet.
>
> That’s the “Tables” view in the Databse. Besides that, you also have
> “Queries”, “Forms” and “Reports”. Try it some time.
>
>> As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few
>> DBs using it over the years and it was quite capable.
>
> Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.

Well, organize smartly :-)

Back in the day, 2gb was more than enough. NOW everyone
pastes huge photos and such into each record ...

However, '64-bitting' Access may NOT be so difficult,
a little search-n-replace in the source code and a
few DLLs. Alas I don't think M$ is motivated. It's keen
on its licen$ed SQL server, esp the 'all-cloud' version
where it can control/mine all your data.

In any case, my experience "back then" was that Access
was quite capable and friendly - often just what a
small biz/org needed at a very fair one-time price.
If you need a little more, then MySQL/MariaDB ...
but you lose some 'ease'.

On 8/7/24 6:44 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Aug 2024 22:30:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2024-08-07, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few DBs using it over
>>>> the years and it was quite capable.
>>>
>>> Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
>>
>> 2GB ought to be enough for anybody. :-)
>
> Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
> anybody”.

With 16tb drives these days ... yea.

Or is 26x16tb not enough ?

However it ACTUALLY encourages referencing
external storage as URLs, not as mapped
drive letters.

Frankly, humans PREFER the drive letters - far
easier to remember/reference/relate. The payroll
stuff goes on the 'P:' drive ....

On 8/7/24 8:59 AM, Just Me wrote:
> On 06/08/2024 01:26, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On 6 Aug 2024 08:47:36 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>
>>> In comp.os.linux.misc vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
>>> Some hints here for WINE, in case you haven't already seen:
>>> https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=12
>>>
>>> Seems you might need to use the "Winetricks" system to separately
>>> install the database engine for the database system that you're using
>>> with Access.
>> Should stay up long enough, at least, so you can extract all the data and
>> convert the system to LibreOffice Base with your choice of DBMS backends.
> Users can import Access database in MS-SQL and access the data using
> Excel with appropriate connector that is available from Microsoft.
>
> MS-SQL Express edition is free for users. It is available for Windows,
> Linux and Docker container. There is a learning curve for people who are
> new to industry class databases but once this is passed, the user would
> be quite happy to use it assuming he has mastery of creating Forms in
> Excel. With forms you can post new entries and also retrieve the entries
> like any databases including Access. There are many tutorials available
> online and on YouTube.
>
> <https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/sql-server/sql-server-downloads>

The handy default WYSIWYG form builder in Access
was the superior way - and ideal for most small
and medium biz/org needs and their humans.

Thick SQL/JS is NOT 'employee friendly'. Means
orgs have to employ their own expensive smelly
annoying jargon-spewing code jocks who appear to
just sit in a big plush chair with cookie-crumbs
on their bellies and you can't tell if they're
DOING anything or not :-)

MAYbe tomorrow's WYSIWYG is "AI"-driven DB/Forms
creation. Just EXPLAIN what you kinda want and
then AI-Dumbledore waves his wand and .....

But you'll NEVER figure out how it works - or
how it fails ....

On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:44:32 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 8/7/24 6:44 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
>> anybody”.
>
> With 16tb drives these days ... yea.

Trying to remember what the “E:” drive or “Z:” drive is for ...