On 03/08/2024 07:44, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
> A longstanding goodness of Linux was its relative
>   simplicity - straight-up code and structure for
>   common needs. This seems to be disappearing in
>   favor of trying to become Winders.

If you are happy to have no interface to it beyond a terminal it is
remarkably simple.
Its the eye candy that takes the space

--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 11:16:55 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Can you DO Sums?

Yes.

> Can you calculate how much 'battery' is needed, and how much actually

Yes done that - with a generous overhead.

> exists in the real world?

There's plenty of iron and chlorine easily available everywhere. If
we wanted to build enough tanks we could hold a year's supply of electricity
for the planet without impacting the availability of raw materials - but we
only need about ten days (that's still about a competition sized swimming
pool of tanks per 100k poeople - that's the answer I got when I did the
sums). I'm not so sure about Vanadium but it's not in short supply. Now if
we had to depend on Lithium for storage we'd be in trouble.

> Can you calculate how many Hiroshima sized nuclear explosions the
> energy in the battery would need to be to keep just a small country
> going overnight?

The Battery ??? You call yourself an engineer ? Reminds me of the
time when people thought there would be *a* computer. District scale (and
downwards) batteries make a lot more sense.

There are already a *lot* of batteries distributed around the
world's power grids and there will be more as fast as they can be built
because they make money for their owners. On top of all the grid scale
batteries many homes now have some battery storage (usually only about a
day's worth but larger flow batteries are appearing) which lets them buy
cheap night rate electricity and use it in the day time or ignore an outage
of a few hours. Some EVs and chargers support V2L and can power the house
from the car.

It all adds up - but we do need to build a *lot* of batteries
(swimming pool per 100k with current commercial offerings) before we can
depend on intermittent sources alone, rather fewer batteries if we bring
some nuclear into the mix but even with 100% nuclear we need enough
batteries to handle the fast peaks and troughs.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On 03/08/2024 11:33, D wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>>> Again its trite and misses the actual point.
>>>>
>>>> You are hung up on the classic idealism/realism debate. Things moved
>>>> on with Kant.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is neither the scientists or the woke crowd moved in
>>>> with him.
>>>
>>> No. You are the one stuck in the idealist camp. Do note that a vast
>>> majority of philosophy ph.d. support the fact that an external world
>>> exist and that science is the best way to obtain knowledge about it.
>>>
>>
>> No, the support the hypothesis.
>> Again you innate stupidity has prevented you from grasping the fine
>> distinction between and ad hoc theory, and fact, and between 'it
>> works' and 'its true'
>
> No, actually it is your innate retardedness that prevents you from
> grasping that we live in a material world. You are stuck in the old
> idealism from the 18th century. Please update yourself, and I'll gladly
> meet you in the real world.
>

You may live in a material world. I just live in whatever it is I live
in. I dont have a strong beliefe about its nature.

>>> I will not stop this conversation, since it is meaningless to talk about
>>> this with you.
>>>
>>> The paper if you are interested is What Do Philosophers Believe? by
>>> David
>>> Bourget and David J. Chalmers.
>>
>> The problem is that you are just stuck in the materialists camp and
>> are in denial that it might not be the be all and end all of everything
>
> Nope. The material is all there is, and you cannot provide proof of
> anything else, or you would have gotten the nobel prize.
>
There you go again! Dogma! An statement of faith. You cannot know that.

> I therefore conclude that you have fallen into the solipsist trap, and I
> will not further talk philosophy with you, since you're argument is on
> the level of a child.
>
You have fallen into the,materialist trap and its an article of
unhsakeable faith.

You clearly do not know what solipsism is, and nothing I have said
supports thge veiw that I 'beleive' it to be true.

> You are an engineer I think, but I have studied philosophy at university
> level, and it does show that you are an engineer and not a philosopher.
>
>> Philosophers - real philosophers - don't do 'believe'
>
> Exactly. Welcome to the real, material world.

The problem with neatly all philsophers who have studied it, at school,
rather than as a private investigation, is that they all want to arrived
at definite conclusions. And very very few of them actually understand
the subject at all.

Only the best come to understand there is no truth to be found, and that
metaphysics is ultmately the study of the belief systems that people
adghere to - like the belief that the world is material and that's all
there is.

>
>> The examine other peoples , dispassionately
>> The fact that you think they have 'beliefs' tells me all I need to
>> know about the mature of your mind
>
> You are retarded, and you will be blocked at the next message talking
> about this subject. It is sad, because you do seem to have quite well
> reasoned views, but I do understand at the same time, that I have touch
> your religion, and that makes you revolting and defensive and closed
> minded.

I have no religion. You are projecting your closed mind in which there
is no space for what I really am or think.
To you there are only Realists, who have access to the Truth, and
solipsists, who are deluded.

You say you have studied philosophy, and yet you have apparently no
knowledge of say Kant, or Schopenhauer or even Karl Popper. Or Hilary
Putnam.

--
"An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
only in others...”

Tom Wolfe

On 03/08/2024 11:56, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 11:16:55 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Can you DO Sums?
>
> Yes.
>
>> Can you calculate how much 'battery' is needed, and how much actually
>
> Yes done that - with a generous overhead.
>
>> exists in the real world?
>
> There's plenty of iron and chlorine easily available everywhere. If
> we wanted to build enough tanks we could hold a year's supply of electricity
> for the planet without impacting the availability of raw materials - but we
> only need about ten days (that's still about a competition sized swimming
> pool of tanks per 100k poeople - that's the answer I got when I did the
> sums). I'm not so sure about Vanadium but it's not in short supply. Now if
> we had to depend on Lithium for storage we'd be in trouble.
>
>> Can you calculate how many Hiroshima sized nuclear explosions the
>> energy in the battery would need to be to keep just a small country
>> going overnight?
>
> The Battery ??? You call yourself an engineer ? Reminds me of the
> time when people thought there would be *a* computer. District scale (and
> downwards) batteries make a lot more sense.
>

So no mathematical refutation, just an ad hominem attack?

> There are already a *lot* of batteries distributed around the
> world's power grids and there will be more as fast as they can be built
> because they make money for their owners. On top of all the grid scale
> batteries many homes now have some battery storage (usually only about a
> day's worth but larger flow batteries are appearing) which lets them buy
> cheap night rate electricity and use it in the day time or ignore an outage
> of a few hours. Some EVs and chargers support V2L and can power the house
> from the car.
>

Yes. I calculated we have enough energy storage to keep the worlds grid
up for nearly three minutes

You havent done the sums. You use words like 'a lot' . Yiu even think
an 'outage pf a few gpurs is acceptable'
Try telling that to a patient on a life support machine.

> It all adds up - but we do need to build a *lot* of batteries
> (swimming pool per 100k with current commercial offerings) before we can
> depend on intermittent sources alone, rather fewer batteries if we bring
> some nuclear into the mix but even with 100% nuclear we need enough
> batteries to handle the fast peaks and troughs.
>

Oh dear. We need to build 'a lot' of batteries.
Or nuclear power stations.
Oh Nuclear power stations are *cheaper* than renewables plus batteries.,
Whoda thunk it?

Not you, apparently.

Your post contains not one quantity. It is full of *qualitative*
statements.

"Yes done that - with a generous overhead." I know you havent. Because I
*have* That's simply bullshit.

Never confuse carefully crafted bullshit with carefully calculated
engineering solutions.

--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain

On 2024-08-03 3:11 a.m., Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2024 17:49:30 -0400
> CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-08-02 1:50 p.m., Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2024 12:57:36 -0400
>>> CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Power lines aren't the problem, you ridiculous cretin. Power
>>>> _production_ is the problem. There is no shortage of videos of electric
>>>> cars owners lined up to the few charging stations that work because not
>>>> only is there not enough electricity being produced there (because we
>>>> had to close coal factories after all), the stations themselves cease
>>>> to work and nobody is ever around to fix them.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to keep out of this but Oh boy that is priceless
>>> garbage! Most EV owners charge at home overnight taking advantage of the
>>> times when the grid is underutilised and electricity is cheap.
>>
>> And what do you do when you're on a road trip, pray tell? Do you drive
>
> I don't go on road trips, that's a peculiarly American thing.

Then EVs are for you. Anyone who _does_ do a road trip is poorly served
by an EV. My mere trip from Montreal to Montebello this summer might
have been a disaster because while I could have easily gotten there,
there were no chargers with which to get back. If something had gone
wrong with my car, there was also no way to get it fixed.

> The
> longest journey I make (rarely) is about 350km of driving, most current EVs
> can easily do that on a charge. I wouldn't want to drive more than that
> in a day and then only for one day but if I was going to I'd be planning
> rest stops at places with chargers thus recharging self and car at the same
> time.

Which is what other people do too. The problem is that other people make
such plans too. Not only do you have to wait for them to be done with
their 30-minute charge to 80%, you have to wait after the person who is
waiting after them. I wonder how this is more convenient than stopping
at _any_ gas station and filling up in the time it takes for your wife
to get in the station and get everyone a chocolate bar.

>> as many kilometres you can, come back home to charge, drive the same
>> kilometres and come back home to charge? Or do you use a charging station?
>
> Obviously when away from home it is usually necessary to depend
> on the charging network (unless you're staying somewhere with a charger or
> can use a "granny cable") but "charging station" not so much. I see
> chargers in supermarket, shopping centre, hotel and municipal car parks as
> well as motorway service stations. I rarely see all of the chargers in use
> anywhere.

Because not everyone has an EV yet. Once everyone is forced to have an
EV, not only will those charges all get used, but your grid is going to
go down repeatedly because not enough electricity will be produced for
people's computers, video games, televisions, laptops and electric
vehicles. In Quebec, where electricity production is not supposed to be
an issue as a result of the many strong rivers allowing for
hydroelectric production, they're already planning on raising prices 3%
every year because of the increased demand. They already know that they
need to build a few more plants for what will come but the Aboriginals
don't want to sacrifice the rivers they fish in to allow us all to have
more power.

With that in mind, what would happen if all people had EVs but there
wasn't enough electricity to go around? You'd be stuck at home, wouldn't
you?

> The thing is that long journets are the exception not the norm,
> most of the time most cars travel less than 100 miles per day which means
> that overnight charging easily keeps them full and even quite small
> batteries suffice. A great many people were happy with the original Nissan
> Leaf with its 24kWh battery and 120km range (on a good day) - with an EV
> that limited I'd hire a car for long journeys and still come out way ahead
> on driving costs - 2c/km instead of 10c/km in fuel costs and much cheaper
> services (there's usually nothing to do but check everything in an EV
> service).
>
> EVs have only two serious downsides - they're expensive to buy and
> they depreciate quickly at first because the new models are always much
> better every year. These are good reasons not to buy a *new* EV, second
> hand ones are getting interesting.

Hippies tend to forget that lithium batteries are not only in EVs but
laptops and cell phones as well. How long does the battery in your
laptop last before you need to replace it if you charge it all the way
to 100%? What about your cell phone? If they offer you a long warranty
on the battery when you buy the vehicle new, that's fantastic. I would
worry for whoever bought a car used and no longer has a warranty.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers

On 2024-08-03 6:28 a.m., D wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2024, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> You mean cars that run on batteries whose production leaves a massive
>> carbon footprint
>> <https://www.industryweek.com/technology-and-iiot/article/22026518/lithium-batteries-dirty-secret-manufacturing-them-leaves-massive-carbon-footprint>, which are only recycled at a rate of 1% <https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/lithium-costs-a-lot-of-money-so-why-arent-we-recycling-lithium-batteries/>, which spontaneous combust "rarely" <https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lithium-ion-battery-fires-electric-cars-bikes-scooters-firefighters/> and which are 79% less reliable than gas cars <https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2023/11/electric-vehicles-are-improving-but-charging-and-battery-issues-persist-in-consumer-reports-2023-annual-auto-reliability-survey/?msockid=287d4f79ae8b60c3236c5bb1afb0613d>.
>>
>> Once again, you are a ridiculous cretin.
>>
>
> Sorry Bobby, I have analyzed the thread and it does in fact seem like
> you are a ridiculous cretin. CrudeSausage is the clear winner here.

Truth is the clear winner, not me.

When I was buying my first car in 2004 (late bloomer, I had a train
station nearby that always brought me straight to university and work),
I actually wanted a Prius. I had no interest in paying for gas because,
at the time, I didn't want to enrich Arabs. That's when I started doing
a lot of research on hybrid and electric cars and started realizing the
pitfalls of having one.

A lot of people love their electric cars, but a lot of people love their
unreliable Jeeps too. I remember reading one article where a guy's Tesla
spontaneously combusted and when asked, he still said "I'd buy another
one." It's no different than talking to a guy whose Wrangler just cost
him $10,000 in repairs. Another example is Mac users. In the 90s, they
wanted a Mac because it made them feel like they were unique or
different. As time progressed, the machines all started looking alike
and forcing them into a walled garden where there was no difference
between them (a skinny purple-haired Communist in a coffee shop) and the
tranny they wanted to get sodomized by (a fat green-haired Communist
sitting at the corner of the coffee shop), but they all continued to
feel "different." They would continue to buy a Mac for that feeling
they've deluded themselves into.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers

On 2024-08-03 6:36 a.m., D wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2024, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> On 2024-08-02 1:50 p.m., Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2024 12:57:36 -0400
>>> CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Power lines aren't the problem, you ridiculous cretin. Power
>>>> _production_ is the problem. There is no shortage of videos of electric
>>>> cars owners lined up to the few charging stations that work because not
>>>> only is there not enough electricity being produced there (because we
>>>> had to close coal factories after all), the stations themselves
>>>> cease to
>>>> work and nobody is ever around to fix them.
>>>
>>>     I'm trying to keep out of this but Oh boy that is priceless
>>> garbage! Most EV owners charge at home overnight taking advantage of the
>>> times when the grid is underutiliosed and electricity is cheap.
>>
>> And what do you do when you're on a road trip, pray tell? Do you drive
>> as many kilometres you can, come back home to charge, drive the same
>> kilometres and come back home to charge? Or do you use a charging
>> station?
>>
>
> Let's also add that it is very entitled to assume that everyone just
> have a house so they can charge overnight. Many people in the world live
> in apartments, which makes this impossible.

Great point. The time when housing was still affordable has passed. Here
in Quebec, a person coming out university and landing a job with a
starter salary might have been able to afford a house in some distant
suburb a few years ago, but even those distant homes now have
unreasonable prices. It wouldn't be a problem if our government wasn't
trying to convince us that there is a labour shortage (there isn't) and
that we need a ton of immigrants (legal or illegal) to solve it.
Instead, we have lots of useless people coming in who need to live
somewhere, the government expects them to help build homes but they are
wholly incapable of even hitting a nail into a plank of wood. Even if
they were capable of doing something other than sticking their hand out
for money, stabbing or raping people, the construction companies which
would have been willing to build these homes aren't willing to do it
with the restrictive costs of materials today. If they build, it will be
homes for the rich where they can make a profit, but the government
needs homes for the wretched where there is no money to be made. The
result is that more parasites come in looking for a handout, they get
money from the taxpayer merely for existing, and they band together with
other cockroaches to buy whatever shithole they can in whatever distant
municipality that will have them. They'll put twenty families into a
small home if they have to as long as they can stay and prevent a
_working_ couple from getting that modest home.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers

On 2024-08-03 6:40 a.m., The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/08/2024 08:11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2024 17:49:30 -0400
>> CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-08-02 1:50 p.m., Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2024 12:57:36 -0400
>>>> CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Power lines aren't the problem, you ridiculous cretin. Power
>>>>> _production_ is the problem. There is no shortage of videos of
>>>>> electric
>>>>> cars owners lined up to the few charging stations that work because
>>>>> not
>>>>> only is there not enough electricity being produced there (because we
>>>>> had to close coal factories after all), the stations themselves cease
>>>>> to work and nobody is ever around to fix them.
>>>>
>>>>     I'm trying to keep out of this but Oh boy that is priceless
>>>> garbage! Most EV owners charge at home overnight taking advantage of
>>>> the
>>>> times when the grid is underutilised and electricity is cheap.
>>>
>>> And what do you do when you're on a road trip, pray tell? Do you drive
>>
>>     I don't go on road trips, that's a peculiarly American thing. The
>> longest journey I make (rarely) is about 350km of driving, most
>> current EVs
>> can easily do that on a charge. I wouldn't want to drive more than that
>> in a day and then only for one day but if I was going to I'd be planning
>> rest stops at places with chargers thus recharging self and car at the
>> same
>> time.
>>
>>> as many kilometres you can, come back home to charge, drive the same
>>> kilometres and come back home to charge? Or do you use a charging
>>> station?
>>
>>     Obviously when away from home it is usually necessary to depend
>> on the charging network (unless you're staying somewhere with a
>> charger or
>> can use a "granny cable") but "charging station" not so much. I see
>> chargers in supermarket, shopping centre, hotel and municipal car
>> parks as
>> well as motorway service stations. I rarely see all of the chargers in
>> use
>> anywhere.
>>
>>     The thing is that long journets are the exception not the norm,
>> most of the time most cars travel less than 100 miles per day which means
>> that overnight charging easily keeps them full and even quite small
>> batteries suffice. A great many people were happy with the original
>> Nissan
>> Leaf with its 24kWh battery and 120km range (on a good day) - with an EV
>> that limited I'd hire a car for long journeys and still come out way
>> ahead
>> on driving costs - 2c/km instead of 10c/km in fuel costs and much cheaper
>> services (there's usually nothing to do but check everything in an EV
>> service).
>>
>>     EVs have only two serious downsides - they're expensive to buy and
>> they depreciate quickly at first because the new models are always much
>> better every year. These are good reasons not to buy a *new* EV, second
>> hand ones are getting interesting.
>>
> Evs have no upsides at all. Not really.
> Even fuel cost will be forced to rise on account of them not paying fuel
> duty
>
> The answer is in the sales figures of tthe major EV manufacturers.
> People are stinging away on droves.

The local news just announced that our rates are going to increase 3%
every year to make up for demand. The 3% seems low until you realize
that is the maximum legal amount they can charge since our production is
owned by the state. If they could raise prices by 10 or 20%, they would.

It's just a matter of time before charging your EV will cost more than
gassing your car. To hippies, this won't matter because they will still
be "saving the planet" even though they never consider where that
battery goes after it is depleted (it's never recycled), where the CAR
goes after it is obsolete (its parts are never recycled because doing so
is lethal), and how much they polluted the environment simply building
the car in the first place.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers

On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 11:32:56 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> The reason we havent got 'batteries' is because although eco-hippies can
> dream about them its all cat belling. We dont know how to build grid
> scale energy storage

Building grid scale storage is a fast growing business - there are
three distinct types of batteries being sold and installed as fast as they
can be made. Big lithium batteries - mostly used for short term storage aka
grid stabilisation but they also make their owners good money working the
spot energy market. Iron and Vanadium redux flow batteries - for longer
term energy storage - typical small installation is four 40 foot
containers, large installations are usually measured in acres.

This has only been going on for a decade or so.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 07:19:43 -0400
CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:

> Hippies tend to forget that lithium batteries are not only in EVs but

I haven't seen a hippy in decades.

> laptops and cell phones as well. How long does the battery in your
> laptop last before you need to replace it if you charge it all the way
> to 100%? What about your cell phone? If they offer you a long warranty

Vehicle batteries and laptop/cellphone batteries are made to
different standards - specifically vehicle batteries are optimised for fast
charging. They still last a lot longer if they don't get too many fast
charges.

Experience with the oldest EVs around is that the batteries last
longer than was originally expected and the batteries don't die they just
take steadily less charge until they don't hold enough to be useful.

All that being said for all practical purposes an EV *is* the
battery and when it dies the EV is scrap. The current crop of 400-500km
range EVs can take a lot of battery degredation before they reach the level
of an original Leaf (which sold very well).

> on the battery when you buy the vehicle new, that's fantastic. I would
> worry for whoever bought a car used and no longer has a warranty.

The manufacturers warranty is transferable - at least here.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

186282@ud0s4.net wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 8/2/24 7:41 AM, D wrote:
>>
>> Yes... the more crazy the linux world is becoming, the more I am leaning
>> towards OpenBSD. I wouldn't be surprised if I actually did base my
>> company servers on openbsd in the end. It seems robust, small and well
>> thought out.
>
> For "serious" servers - this is my current rec.
>
> Linux is, or can be, great but it's in too-rapid
> flux at the moment - with eye-candy and such
> becoming the major priorities.
>
> Oh, and Linus isn't young anymore. He has been
> the glue holding the system kernel intact and
> consistent. Before the last of the good Linux
> mags disappeared there were columns from those
> in his close orbit relating combat over many
> 'improvements' that would basically trash a
> lot of what is, corrupt the logic of the system.
>
> Once Linus exits .....

https://itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/torvalds-says-no-need-to-name-successor-as-that-will-happen-on-its-own.html

I don't think I'll ever be in the situation where I need to really "name" a
successor – it will be fairly clear who it is. Not because this is some
democracy and people would vote on it and there's a clear winner, but
because these things really happen on their own: a "successor" isn't
somebody who gets anointed as such, they end up just doing the work and
making themselves one that way. There's always been a few people around who
are clearly just people who get relied on a lot. These are people who have
been around for years, often decades, and people know them and know how
they work and trust them.
<laharsnip>

--
Your present plans will be successful.

The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 03/08/2024 07:44, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>> A longstanding goodness of Linux was its relative
>>   simplicity - straight-up code and structure for
>>   common needs. This seems to be disappearing in
>>   favor of trying to become Winders.
>
> If you are happy to have no interface to it beyond a terminal it is
> remarkably simple.
> Its the eye candy that takes the space

Of course, once can configure one's Linux system at many many levels.

No need to accept whatever your distro forcefeeds you.

--
They spell it "da Vinci" and pronounce it "da Vinchy". Foreigners
always spell better than they pronounce.
-- Mark Twain

The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 02/08/2024 15:51, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>> On 8/1/24 18:48, geodandw wrote:
>
>>> What makes you think there is a creator?
>>
>>     The universe and its subte connection at the level of
>> sub-nuclear particles which happen to play out in the chemistry
>> of everything including life and consciousness.
>
> You cannot prove that to be true, and in fact esoteric religion claims
> otherwise.

Already well proven, good sir.

It's physics all the way down.

Preserve your software. The rest is meat. (Kudos to Rudy Rucker, the
mathematical fucker.)

--
Don't relax! It's only your tension that's holding you together.

On 03/08/2024 12:43, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 11:32:56 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> The reason we havent got 'batteries' is because although eco-hippies can
>> dream about them its all cat belling. We dont know how to build grid
>> scale energy storage
>
> Building grid scale storage is a fast growing business - there are
> three distinct types of batteries being sold and installed as fast as they
> can be made. Big lithium batteries - mostly used for short term storage aka
> grid stabilisation but they also make their owners good money working the
> spot energy market. Iron and Vanadium redux flow batteries - for longer
> term energy storage - typical small installation is four 40 foot
> containers, large installations are usually measured in acres.
>
> This has only been going on for a decade or so.
>
And has not made any difference to anything. Only the grid stabilisers work

Stop hand waving and come up with an authoritative source as to how much
electrical storage the iron and vanadium *redox* (not redux) batteries
have, and how much is needed for one hour of total grid support in any
country. In my country _240GWh_ is a minimum for a dark cold windless
winter night.

And then sell you shares in those companys

"Rongke Power deployed the largest VRFB system to date, a 100 MW / 400
MWh system in Dalian, China. There are plans to increase the capacity of
this plant to 800 MWh.

Sumitomo Electric is a Japanese company that has been deploying VRFBs
since 2001. Sumitomo installed more than 50 MWh across the world between
2022 and 2023. The largest Sumitomo VRFB is a 15 MW/60 MWh installation
in Hokkaido. The installation has been under commercial operation since
2019.

Invinity Energy Systems is an Anglo-American company with deployments
across continents. Invinity has installed a total of about 25 MWh in the
past year. Overall, Invinity has deployed or contracted over 75 MWh
across 70 projects in 14 countries.

CellCube Inc., is an Austrian VRFB manufacturer with installations
across several countries. CellCube has deployed a total capacity of
13.95 MW/75.29 MWh. In the year between 2022 and 2023, CellCube
installed approximately 10 MWh.

VRB Energy is a VRFB OEM headquartered in Canada. VRB has deployed 45
MWh worth of capacity and is currently developing an additional 750 MWh.

The leading manufacturer of zinc-bromine RFB (ZBRFB) is Redflow. Redflow
was founded in 2005 and is headquartered in Australia. Between 2022 and
2023, Redflow deployed close to 5 MWh. The largest ZBRFB installation to
date has a 2 MWh rating.

The leading manufacturer of the all-iron redox flow battery is ESS Inc.
ESS is in the process of deploying commercial systems but has several
ongoing demonstrations."

All pissing in the wind. They are shouting about MWh installations when
we need GWh

Now bugger off and learn to Do Sums

--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

On 03/08/2024 12:54, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 07:19:43 -0400
> CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>
>> Hippies tend to forget that lithium batteries are not only in EVs but
>
> I haven't seen a hippy in decades.
>
>> laptops and cell phones as well. How long does the battery in your
>> laptop last before you need to replace it if you charge it all the way
>> to 100%? What about your cell phone? If they offer you a long warranty
>
> Vehicle batteries and laptop/cellphone batteries are made to
> different standards

LOL!

The original Tesla was made with cellphone batteries!

- specifically vehicle batteries are optimised for fast
> charging. They still last a lot longer if they don't get too many fast
> charges.
>
Not really fats charging is 5 minutes. No EV can do that.

> Experience with the oldest EVs around is that the batteries last
> longer than was originally expected and the batteries don't die they just
> take steadily less charge until they don't hold enough to be useful.
>
> All that being said for all practical purposes an EV *is* the
> battery and when it dies the EV is scrap. The current crop of 400-500km
> range EVs can take a lot of battery degredation before they reach the level
> of an original Leaf (which sold very well).
>
Well no, not really. Teh battery is about half the cost.

>> on the battery when you buy the vehicle new, that's fantastic. I would
>> worry for whoever bought a car used and no longer has a warranty.
>
> The manufacturers warranty is transferable - at least here.
>

--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
....than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

On 03/08/2024 13:17, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On 02/08/2024 15:51, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>> On 8/1/24 18:48, geodandw wrote:
>>
>>>> What makes you think there is a creator?
>>>
>>>     The universe and its subte connection at the level of
>>> sub-nuclear particles which happen to play out in the chemistry
>>> of everything including life and consciousness.
>>
>> You cannot prove that to be true, and in fact esoteric religion claims
>> otherwise.
>
> Already well proven, good sir.
>
I see. More dogma, no evidence

> It's physics all the way down.
>

I see. More dogma, no evidence

--
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.”

― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 03/08/2024 13:17, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> On 02/08/2024 15:51, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>> On 8/1/24 18:48, geodandw wrote:
>>>
>>>>> What makes you think there is a creator?
>>>>
>>>>     The universe and its subte connection at the level of
>>>> sub-nuclear particles which happen to play out in the chemistry
>>>> of everything including life and consciousness.
>>>
>>> You cannot prove that to be true, and in fact esoteric religion claims
>>> otherwise.
>>
>> Already well proven, good sir.
>>
> I see. More dogma, no evidence

Sorry to see you have no education. Don't expect to get one here.

>> It's physics all the way down.
>
> I see. More dogma, no evidence

You're competing in the wrong game, philosopher. Here's a nickel kid, get
yourself a Ph.D. in Physics. It's fun to watch the kiddies manipulating
microwaves, analyzing spectra, detecting electrons!

--
She is not refined. She is not unrefined. She keeps a parrot.
-- Mark Twain

On 03/08/2024 13:35, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On 03/08/2024 13:17, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>
>>>> On 02/08/2024 15:51, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>>> On 8/1/24 18:48, geodandw wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> What makes you think there is a creator?
>>>>>
>>>>>     The universe and its subte connection at the level of
>>>>> sub-nuclear particles which happen to play out in the chemistry
>>>>> of everything including life and consciousness.
>>>>
>>>> You cannot prove that to be true, and in fact esoteric religion claims
>>>> otherwise.
>>>
>>> Already well proven, good sir.
>>>
>> I see. More dogma, no evidence
>
> Sorry to see you have no education. Don't expect to get one here.
I see teh old 'mirror trick' of projecting your won ignorance onto
others is serving you well.

>
>>> It's physics all the way down.
>>
>> I see. More dogma, no evidence
>
> You're competing in the wrong game, philosopher. Here's a nickel kid, get
> yourself a Ph.D. in Physics. It's fun to watch the kiddies manipulating
> microwaves, analyzing spectra, detecting electrons!
>
Dont be silly. I have enough physics already.

And don't call someone 3 times older than you 'kid' It makes you look silly
And I see you ignored all my references to actual philosophers of some
regard, so its clear you never studied any.

--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

On 2024-08-03 7:54 a.m., Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 07:19:43 -0400
> CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>
>> Hippies tend to forget that lithium batteries are not only in EVs but
>
> I haven't seen a hippy in decades.

You never look in the mirror?

>> laptops and cell phones as well. How long does the battery in your
>> laptop last before you need to replace it if you charge it all the way
>> to 100%? What about your cell phone? If they offer you a long warranty
>
> Vehicle batteries and laptop/cellphone batteries are made to
> different standards - specifically vehicle batteries are optimised for fast
> charging. They still last a lot longer if they don't get too many fast
> charges.

Meanwhile, fast-charging is the only option if you're at a station with
people waiting behind you.

> Experience with the oldest EVs around is that the batteries last
> longer than was originally expected and the batteries don't die they just
> take steadily less charge until they don't hold enough to be useful.
>
> All that being said for all practical purposes an EV *is* the
> battery and when it dies the EV is scrap. The current crop of 400-500km
> range EVs can take a lot of battery degredation before they reach the level
> of an original Leaf (which sold very well).

And what happens when that EV and its battery are scrap, pray tell?

>> on the battery when you buy the vehicle new, that's fantastic. I would
>> worry for whoever bought a car used and no longer has a warranty.
>
> The manufacturers warranty is transferable - at least here.

If it isn't expired.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers

On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 12:17:28 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 03/08/2024 11:56, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 11:16:55 +0100
> > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> Can you calculate how many Hiroshima sized nuclear explosions the
> >> energy in the battery would need to be to keep just a small country
> >> going overnight?
> >
> > The Battery ??? You call yourself an engineer ? Reminds me of
> > the time when people thought there would be *a* computer. District
> > scale (and downwards) batteries make a lot more sense.
> >
>
> So no mathematical refutation, just an ad hominem attack?

Oh all right mathematics - small country Ireland consumes
approximately 30TWh of electricity per year so an overnight store would be
approximately 1/600th of that but let's go for a whole day with some
overhead and call it 100GWh of storage (alomst 6 Hiroshima yeilds). That's a
lot in one place but Ireland has around 5 million people so going by my
other basis of storage per 100K that would mean 50 batteries of 2 GWh (less
than 1/8th of a Hiroshima) each spread around the country.

Now for discharge rate - 2GWh in 24 hours is 83MW that's all it
needs to sustain. A flow battery has no self discharge and is physically
incapable of releasing energy unless the pumps are running and then only at
the designed rate. It cannot blow anything up.

Now some more sums - The electrolyte (Ferric Chloride) for an Iron
Chloride redux battery holds about 50Wh/l (Vanadium batteries are more like
300Wh/l) so each of those 50 batteries holds 6.5-40 million litres of
electrolyte.

> Yes. I calculated we have enough energy storage to keep the worlds grid
> up for nearly three minutes

What we have is totally irrelevant - what we need is the important
thing.

> "Yes done that - with a generous overhead." I know you havent. Because I
> *have* That's simply bullshit.

Look upwards I have.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 03/08/2024 13:35, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> On 03/08/2024 13:17, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Already well proven, good sir.
>>>>
>>> I see. More dogma, no evidence
>>
>> Sorry to see you have no education. Don't expect to get one here.
>
> I see teh old 'mirror trick' of projecting your won ignorance onto
> others is serving you well.

Back atcha!

>>>> It's physics all the way down.
>>>
>>> I see. More dogma, no evidence
>>
>> You're competing in the wrong game, philosopher. Here's a nickel kid, get
>> yourself a Ph.D. in Physics. It's fun to watch the kiddies manipulating
>> microwaves, analyzing spectra, detecting electrons!
>
> Dont be silly. I have enough physics already.

Obviously not, if you believe that physics is "dogma".

> And don't call someone 3 times older than you 'kid' It makes you look silly

You're 201 years old?

> And I see you ignored all my references to actual philosophers of some
> regard, so its clear you never studied any.

I took a philosophy class in college and have read a bit of Bertrand Russell.
Finally figured out that a lot of philosophy is just arguing about the meanings
of words. I don't give a shit about philosophy.

Why don't you go off somewhere and calculate some Hamiltonians? Will keep ya
outa our hair.

--
Day of inquiry. You will be subpoenaed.

CrudeSausage wrote:

>The problem is that other people make
>such plans too. Not only do you have to wait for them to be done with
>their 30-minute charge to 80%, you have to wait after the person who is
>waiting after them.

80% if they are following "charger etiquette". There will be those
who want to stay on an extra hour so that they can get "topped up".
"Charge rage" has already been coined to describe the conflicts that
occur.

I cannot imagine having to wait in a queue for *hours* to get a
charge. Which *will* happen, and a *lot*. Anyone who doesn't think
so is *stupid*.

>I wonder how this is more convenient than stopping
>at _any_ gas station and filling up in the time it takes for your wife
>to get in the station and get everyone a chocolate bar.

And the gas station actually works reliably. It's not broken down, or
locked-up, or the hose cut off for its copper.

Those who think that we can "go electric", any time soon, are GD
*idiots*.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

>There's plenty of iron and chlorine easily available everywhere. If
>we wanted to build enough tanks we could hold a year's supply of electricity
>for the planet without impacting the availability of raw materials - but we
>only need about ten days (that's still about a competition sized swimming
>pool of tanks per 100k poeople

Are you saying that a battery the size of a competition sized swimming
pool could power 100k people for ten days? No fscking way.

CrudeSausage wrote:

>I remember reading one article where a guy's Tesla spontaneously
>combusted and when asked, he still said "I'd buy another one.

It must not have caught fire in his garage and burned his house down.

On 2024-08-03 9:36 a.m., chrisv wrote:
> CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> The problem is that other people make
>> such plans too. Not only do you have to wait for them to be done with
>> their 30-minute charge to 80%, you have to wait after the person who is
>> waiting after them.
>
> 80% if they are following "charger etiquette". There will be those
> who want to stay on an extra hour so that they can get "topped up".
> "Charge rage" has already been coined to describe the conflicts that
> occur.
>
> I cannot imagine having to wait in a queue for *hours* to get a
> charge. Which *will* happen, and a *lot*. Anyone who doesn't think
> so is *stupid*.

Some of the research I did on electric technology twenty or so years ago
is part of why I decided that I would hold onto my QX60, as unreliable
as it might become, until it inevitably dies or the government forces an
electric car on me. I have no interest in sacrificing luxuries such as
being able to fuel my car in an appropriate amount of time to surrender
to some idiotic version of saving the planet. People in my area are
series dicks too in their inability to make routine stops, not letting
people turn when it's clearly their turn and going through red lights,
so I have no interest in being behind these clowns at a charging
station, hoping that today will be the day they decide to be considerate.

>> I wonder how this is more convenient than stopping
>> at _any_ gas station and filling up in the time it takes for your wife
>> to get in the station and get everyone a chocolate bar.
>
> And the gas station actually works reliably. It's not broken down, or
> locked-up, or the hose cut off for its copper.
>
> Those who think that we can "go electric", any time soon, are GD
> *idiots*.

Every one of us has had a moment where we woke up late AND happen to be
low on gas to get to work. In such a situation, stopping at a gas
station for a five-minute fill-up to then make it to work is still a
reality; imagine doing that with an electric car after you find out that
you're low and that there was a power outage overnight.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers