The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> D wrote:
>>
>> No I think it is just because someone pulled in comp.os.linux.advocacy.
>> Seems a lot of trolls reside there. I looked into it, found it way to
>> annoying, and stopped. But I got a reminder of why I stopped reading
>> that group.

That's rather ironic, coming from someone who thinks that it "sounded"
like I admitted defeat, because I temporarily ignored someone who had
just attacked me without basis.

How is defeat even possible, when I was so clearly in the right?

>Yup. Ain't that the truth.
>
>Linux is good all by itself. Doesn't need advocacy.

About Linux, you are correct.

Your response, if any, will be deleted, unread.

On 1/3/25 6:52 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/01/2025 11:45, D wrote:
>> No I think it is just because someone pulled in
>> comp.os.linux.advocacy. Seems a lot of trolls reside there. I looked
>> into it, found it way to annoying, and stopped. But I got a reminder
>> of why I stopped reading that group.
>
> Yup. Ain't that the truth.

Yup, its a product of crossposting. Things change and USENET just
doesn't have the audience it did 30 years ago to have groups have
sufficient critical mass to sustain (on- or off-topic) dialogs/

> Linux is good all by itself. Doesn't need advocacy.

Its a tool like anything else, so use the right tool for the job.

Advocates in COLA have historically fight against the wisdom of
understanding that everything has its own strengths & weaknesses,
swimming against uses where other solutions are better.

For example, take a new digital camera: wouldn't it be nice to not have
to wait a year to read its new RAW file format? Most folk just want
pics, so they choose a platform where its supported on launch, not to
have to sit down to DIY write & test a 3rd party driver first.

Meantime, my New Year's Resolution is to tweak my Linux NAS; seems that
it needs a better RAM cache to not bottleneck on network, and those
parts are due to arrive this weekend. I'll have to look around to see if
I have some spare NVMEs to change up its disk cache while I'm at it too.
If that doesn't resolve things, then its probably time to look to some
network gear to move some nodes from 1GbE to 10GbE.

-hh

186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> OpenSUSE is also great - but I'm worried about how
> it uses the now IBM-owned sources.

Are you saing that they use source code that is owned by IBM and not
released under any open-source license?

--
"Almost no one in user land gives a flying fuck about an open and free
kernel." - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark

On 1/3/25 7:07 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/01/2025 11:58, -hh wrote:
>> On 1/3/25 6:32 AM, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025, Lars Poulsen wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2025-01-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>>>> https://policies.python.org/python.org/code-of-conduct/
>>>>>
>>>>> What isn't 'woke' these days? The language is over the top but does
>>>>> the
>>>>> end result really differ from civilized behavior in the workplace?
>>>>
>>>> The problem seems to be that some a**holes NEED to be smacked with
>>>> regulations before they will live up to basic civility. And then they
>>>> complain about "woke tyranny".
>>>>
>>>
>>> That might be true. It is also true that some people are severely and
>>> unjustly punished for being conservative christians, pro-Trump, or
>>> just plain conservative.
>>
>> These actions you're defending as 'unjust' were things like killing
>> someone because they happened to be gay/black/different, right?
>>
>
> No.
> It means losing your career and livelihood because you said that women
> don't have a penis.

I'm not disputing that such claims have been made, nor that the one
stating it got berated, but we do need to look beyond the superficial
media sound bite to see what the more complete context has been.

For example, much of these trans- topics have been distractions from a
basic principle, such as "but don't they have rights too?": the whole
flamewar on this in college sports: the NCAA chair recently testified
to Congress and revealed that there's ten (10) trans NCAA athletes in
question. With this so-called "problem" being just ten kids, don't you
think that this topic has been blown way out of proportion?

There's certainly been more than just ten kids who have been denied
opportunity for some equally trivial & wrong reason too by some coach
somewhere who doesn't like their curly hair, accent, a sibling, etc.
Put blame on the individuals being assholes, not principles of equality.

> Or because you said that Mohammed wasn't a very nice person, after all.
> Or losing an eye because of that.

Also no 'woke', because physical assault has been illegal for centuries.

Now while on this topic, why can Christians shove their religious texts
down everyone's throats? Can you identify which Constitution Amendment
made this form of Christianity our one & only official religion? Or is
the actual problem here that some fundamental Christians have chosen to
become flaming assholes intolerant of all others?

> Or losing your career and livelihood because you failed to endorse
> wokery in every performance and every film play or radio drama that you
> were involved in.

But Theater has been a haven for 'misfits' of society for decades, so
why are you trying to disrespect/destroy that subculture they've built?
Are you going to deride D&D players for the same reasons too?

Or Hunters? Powerboat owners? Because there's a million subcultures
that one can attack when you really are determined to be an asshole.

> Or losing your career and livelihood because you failed to endorse 'man
> made climate change'.

Sea levels have already risen by 4 inches since 1993, and hard science
has found the primary energy imbalance reason why: its anthropometric.

>> There's extreme cases of assholitry that have no place in Society; the
>> question is how to establish a fair, uniform and transparent standard
>> that won't be abused by those who's personal biases make them prone to
>> being an abuser (see religious leaders & pedophilia for YA example).
>>
> Abolish woke.

Abolish assholes ... it is the more direct & obvious solution.

> Make it perfectly legal to think anything and say anything that is not a
> direct incitement to public violence.

It already is. What you're trying to do is to separate Freedom of
Speech from Freedom from Consequences.

> Battle racism by repealing  all laws that diifferentiate  between ethnic
> groups

The challenge is how to identify, quantify & make amendments for decades
of systematic advantages granted to straight white protestant men, as
the current generation has had both direct plus indirect benefits
through their forefathers.

Change can occur though, by leading by example: demand that all cops who
have pulled over any "driving while black" motorists be fired, stripped
of pension & blacklisted from ever working a job in law enforcement ever
again.

> Let society, not the Law, judge whether a man in a summer frock is
> really a woman or just a sick saddo.

Let Society mind their own damn business by not demanding to peek under
that individual's frock to begin with.

-hh

On 2025-01-03 03:34, rbowman wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 00:49:59 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> Find an old International Harvester truck ... SOLID steel all
>> through. Parts may be tricky though ...
>
> My '86 F-150 is reasonably solid. I was sitting in it reading in a parking
> lot when a woman trying to park backed into it. I didn't even bother to
> get out to see if she'd done any damage. That was the front bumper. If
> she'd backed into the step,n,tow bumper on the rear her problems might
> have been greater.

I had a similar experience a week or so ago. I was sitting in a
supermarket parking lot in my new QX60 when the daughter of the guy who
parked to the left of me decided to open her car door wide and smack my
vehicle. She freaked out when she noticed that I was in the car, had
these wide eyes and couldn't think of doing anything but motion her
hands and say "sorry." I bet that she wouldn't have cared whatsoever had
I not been in the car. I looked at her and uttered something in French
saying that a sorry wouldn't be enough and got out of my car. When she
saw my size, she got into her car and cowered where her dad ripped into
her and asked whether she had actually damaged anything. Luckily for
both of them, she had only transferred her dad's cheap Dodge paint onto
my car and I was able to easily wipe it off.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 2025-01-03 05:43, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2025-01-02 21:06, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>> On 2025-01-02 14:42, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2 Jan 2025 08:36:41 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>
>>>> I find GNOME rather clunky whereas KDE, at least on Fedora and Nobara,
>>>> is perfect out of the box. I imagine that a lot of people who try out
>>>> Linux and face GNOME are going to wonder how to do the basics, and they
>>>> will likely find that the way extensions work is rather clunky,
>>>> especially during upgrades. Meanwhile, KDE is very familiar and
>>>> offers a
>>>> ton of features they could only dream of in Windows like the desktop
>>>> effects, theming options and widgets. Unlike Cinnamon too, the widgets
>>>> in KDE actually work as they should.
>>>
>>> The Ubuntu box has GNOME. I live with it but I'm not a fan. I'd rather
>>> have a menu structure rather than the 'Show Applications' button that
>>> brings up three or four screens of unsorted stuff.
>>
>> GNOME was designed with the belief that anyone looking for an
>> application will press the Windows key and then type the name of what
>> they're looking for rather than select it from a menu. That's how I do
>> it whether I use Windows, GNOME or KDE so I would agree with their
>> design choice.
>>
>
> What if you are new and don't know the name of the applications?

Then you do what we all did and scour through the applications (eithjer
in the menu or the pile of unsorted applications) until you find what
you're looking for. After a while, you find it and remember its name.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 2025-01-03 06:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 02/01/2025 20:06, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>> On 2025-01-02 14:42, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2 Jan 2025 08:36:41 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>
>>>> I find GNOME rather clunky whereas KDE, at least on Fedora and Nobara,
>>>> is perfect out of the box. I imagine that a lot of people who try out
>>>> Linux and face GNOME are going to wonder how to do the basics, and they
>>>> will likely find that the way extensions work is rather clunky,
>>>> especially during upgrades. Meanwhile, KDE is very familiar and
>>>> offers a
>>>> ton of features they could only dream of in Windows like the desktop
>>>> effects, theming options and widgets. Unlike Cinnamon too, the widgets
>>>> in KDE actually work as they should.
>>>
>>> The Ubuntu box has GNOME. I live with it but I'm not a fan. I'd rather
>>> have a menu structure rather than the 'Show Applications' button that
>>> brings up three or four screens of unsorted stuff.
>>
>> GNOME was designed with the belief that anyone looking for an
>> application will press the Windows key and then type the name of what
>> they're looking for rather than select it from a menu. That's how I do
>> it whether I use Windows, GNOME or KDE so I would agree with their
>> design choice.
>>
> Odd, since MATE - a superset of GNOME - expects you to use a menu. Its
> very XP like.
>
> And since XP was what I was running when I switched entirely to Linux, I
> didn't have to relearn very much at all..

We are talking about GNOME _now_ not then.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 03/01/2025 13:32, -hh wrote:
> Sea levels have already risen by 4 inches since 1993, and hard science
> has found the primary energy imbalance reason why:  its anthropometric.

Sea level rise has been 3mm/yr for the last 4000 years. Nothing has changed

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 03/01/2025 13:56, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
> On 2025-01-03 06:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 02/01/2025 20:06, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>> On 2025-01-02 14:42, rbowman wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 2 Jan 2025 08:36:41 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I find GNOME rather clunky whereas KDE, at least on Fedora and Nobara,
>>>>> is perfect out of the box. I imagine that a lot of people who try out
>>>>> Linux and face GNOME are going to wonder how to do the basics, and
>>>>> they
>>>>> will likely find that the way extensions work is rather clunky,
>>>>> especially during upgrades. Meanwhile, KDE is very familiar and
>>>>> offers a
>>>>> ton of features they could only dream of in Windows like the desktop
>>>>> effects, theming options and widgets. Unlike Cinnamon too, the widgets
>>>>> in KDE actually work as they should.
>>>>
>>>> The Ubuntu box has GNOME. I live with it but I'm not a fan. I'd rather
>>>> have a menu structure rather than the 'Show Applications' button that
>>>> brings up three or four screens of unsorted stuff.
>>>
>>> GNOME was designed with the belief that anyone looking for an
>>> application will press the Windows key and then type the name of what
>>> they're looking for rather than select it from a menu. That's how I
>>> do it whether I use Windows, GNOME or KDE so I would agree with their
>>> design choice.
>>>
>> Odd, since MATE - a superset of GNOME - expects you to use a menu. Its
>> very XP like.
>>
>> And since XP was what I was running when I switched entirely to Linux,
>> I didn't have to relearn very much at all..
>
> We are talking about GNOME _now_ not then.
>
Fairy Nuff. I have no idea what it is now, but MATE is still built on
gnome3 libraries AFAIK
And was a sort of fork of gnome2 desktop

--
The higher up the mountainside
The greener grows the grass.
The higher up the monkey climbs
The more he shows his arse.

Traditional

On 2025-01-03 07:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/01/2025 11:58, -hh wrote:
>> On 1/3/25 6:32 AM, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025, Lars Poulsen wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2025-01-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>>>> https://policies.python.org/python.org/code-of-conduct/
>>>>>
>>>>> What isn't 'woke' these days? The language is over the top but does
>>>>> the
>>>>> end result really differ from civilized behavior in the workplace?
>>>>
>>>> The problem seems to be that some a**holes NEED to be smacked with
>>>> regulations before they will live up to basic civility. And then they
>>>> complain about "woke tyranny".
>>>>
>>>
>>> That might be true. It is also true that some people are severely and
>>> unjustly punished for being conservative christians, pro-Trump, or
>>> just plain conservative.
>>
>> These actions you're defending as 'unjust' were things like killing
>> someone because they happened to be gay/black/different, right?
>>
>
> No.
> It means losing your career and livelihood because you said that women
> don't have a penis.
> Or because you said that Mohammed wasn't a very nice person, after all.
> Or losing an eye because of that.
> Or losing your career and livelihood because you failed to endorse
> wokery in every performance and every film play or radio drama that you
> were involved in.
> Or losing your career and livelihood because you failed to endorse 'man
> made climate change'.
>
>
>> There's extreme cases of assholitry that have no place in Society; the
>> question is how to establish a fair, uniform and transparent standard
>> that won't be abused by those who's personal biases make them prone to
>> being an abuser (see religious leaders & pedophilia for YA example).
>>
> Abolish woke.
>
> Make it perfectly legal to think anything and say anything that is not a
> direct incitement to public violence.
>
> Battle racism by repealing  all laws that diifferentiate  between ethnic
> groups
>
> Let society, not the Law, judge whether a man in a summer frock is
> really a woman or just a sick saddo.

+1

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 2025-01-03 07:11, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
>
>> On 2025-01-02 21:06, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>> On 2025-01-02 14:42, rbowman wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 2 Jan 2025 08:36:41 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I find GNOME rather clunky whereas KDE, at least on Fedora and Nobara,
>>>>> is perfect out of the box. I imagine that a lot of people who try out
>>>>> Linux and face GNOME are going to wonder how to do the basics, and they
>>>>> will likely find that the way extensions work is rather clunky,
>>>>> especially during upgrades. Meanwhile, KDE is very familiar and offers a
>>>>> ton of features they could only dream of in Windows like the desktop
>>>>> effects, theming options and widgets. Unlike Cinnamon too, the widgets
>>>>> in KDE actually work as they should.
>>>>
>>>> The Ubuntu box has GNOME. I live with it but I'm not a fan. I'd rather
>>>> have a menu structure rather than the 'Show Applications' button that
>>>> brings up three or four screens of unsorted stuff.
>>>
>>> GNOME was designed with the belief that anyone looking for an
>>> application will press the Windows key and then type the name of what
>>> they're looking for rather than select it from a menu. That's how I do
>>> it whether I use Windows, GNOME or KDE so I would agree with their
>>> design choice.
>>
>> What if you are new and don't know the name of the applications?
>
> As time goes on, *some* will learn.

No, most will. I agree that most people have the memory of a fruit fly,
but I imagine that if they installed Linux in the first place, they're
probably brighter.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 2025-01-03 07:25, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2025-01-03 12:16, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 2 Jan 2025, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 2 Jan 2025 08:36:41 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>
>>>> I find GNOME rather clunky whereas KDE, at least on Fedora and Nobara,
>>>> is perfect out of the box. I imagine that a lot of people who try out
>>>> Linux and face GNOME are going to wonder how to do the basics, and they
>>>> will likely find that the way extensions work is rather clunky,
>>>> especially during upgrades. Meanwhile, KDE is very familiar and
>>>> offers a
>>>> ton of features they could only dream of in Windows like the desktop
>>>> effects, theming options and widgets. Unlike Cinnamon too, the widgets
>>>> in KDE actually work as they should.
>>>
>>> The Ubuntu box has GNOME. I live with it but I'm not a fan. I'd rather
>>> have a menu structure rather than the 'Show Applications' button that
>>> brings up three or four screens of unsorted stuff.
>>>
>>
>> I've been running XFCE for at least a decade and I for me it is a nice
>> sweet spot of a more comprehensive desktop environment that is also
>> fairly light on resources.
>>
>> I do not use the menu system, but only a keyboard launcher instead.
>
> I switched to XFCE when Gnome went into version 3. Not sure it is 3, but
> when they changed the paradigm and killed the menu.

That was 3. You did the right thing at the time since it would take a
while before that new interface was truly usable.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 12:42:31 +0100
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> OpenAI are good at marketing. They will probably crash the second
> their models do no longer improve.

Sooner than that, possibly. They're absolutely *hemorrhaging* money,
every iteration of the product takes longer and costs more to develop/
"train," they're bucking for the mother of all IP-infringement suits
when the corporate media behemoths finally catch up with them (anyone
gets "Sora" to produce a Disney character, and you might as well just
head for the fallout shelter,) "hallucinations" are still essentially
unsolvable given the way the thing works, and it still can't do *half*
of what they keep promising it will Real Soon Now.

Ed Zitron - https://www.wheresyoured.at/ - has done a lot of solid
writing on this in the last year or two. If they didn't have a bunch of
vulture capitalists constantly pumping the money firehose in hopes of
selling it to CEOs on the prospect of being able to fire all their
employees and replace them with ChatGPT, they'dve been dead and buried
long ago.

The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> On 03/01/2025 13:32, -hh wrote:
>> Sea levels have already risen by 4 inches since 1993, and hard science
>> has found the primary energy imbalance reason why:  its anthropometric.
>
> Sea level rise has been 3mm/yr for the last 4000 years. Nothing has changed

This source disagrees:

https://ocean.si.edu/through-time/ancient-seas/sea-level-rise

Also, sea level is *not* the same all over the world. The article mentions that
as well.

It's an interesting read.

--
Nietzsche is pietzsche, but Schiller is killer, and Goethe is moethe.

On 03/01/2025 16:31, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
>
>> On 03/01/2025 13:32, -hh wrote:
>>> Sea levels have already risen by 4 inches since 1993, and hard science
>>> has found the primary energy imbalance reason why:  its anthropometric.
>>
>> Sea level rise has been 3mm/yr for the last 4000 years. Nothing has changed
>
> This source disagrees:
>
> https://ocean.si.edu/through-time/ancient-seas/sea-level-rise
>
> Also, sea level is *not* the same all over the world. The article mentions that
> as well.
>
> It's an interesting read.
>
Well I will merely quote from the Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_sea_level

"Sea level has changed over geologic time. As the graph shows, sea level
today is very near the *lowest level ever attained* (the lowest level
occurred at the Permian-Triassic boundary about 250 million years ago)."

"Recently, it has become widely accepted that late Holocene, 3,000
calendar years ago to present, sea level was nearly stable prior to an
acceleration of rate of rise that is variously dated between 1850 and
1900 AD."

*Long before any CO2 excess was present*.

--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

On 1/3/25 11:43 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/01/2025 16:31, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
>>
>>> On 03/01/2025 13:32, -hh wrote:
>>>> Sea levels have already risen by 4 inches since 1993, and hard science
>>>> has found the primary energy imbalance reason why:  its anthropometric.
>>>
>>> Sea level rise has been 3mm/yr for the last 4000 years. Nothing has
>>> changed
>>
>> This source disagrees:
>>
>>      https://ocean.si.edu/through-time/ancient-seas/sea-level-rise
>>
>> Also, sea level is *not* the same all over the world. The article
>> mentions that
>> as well.
>>
>> It's an interesting read.
>
> Well I will merely quote from the Wiki:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_sea_level
>
> "Sea level has changed over geologic time. As the graph shows, sea level
> today is very near the *lowest level ever attained*  (the lowest level
> occurred at the Permian-Triassic boundary about 250 million years ago)."
>
> "Recently, it has become widely accepted that late Holocene, 3,000
> calendar years ago to present, sea level was nearly stable prior to an
> acceleration of rate of rise that is variously dated between 1850 and
> 1900 AD."
>
> *Long before any CO2 excess was present*.

Yes, the rate of raise was nearly stable **before** the Industrial Age.

Which is the point: the contemporary acceleration in the rate of rise
is a change, and it is coincident with the advent of the Industrial Age.

Overall, sea level is kind of like driving down the highway: it doesn't
particularly matter if the speed limit is 55 or 65: what matters is
when there's a rapid rate of change.

When we look at the timescale of rates of change, we find that over the
past 2000 years, the last 150 years stand out:

[quote]
Stable sea level from 200 BC until 1000 AD
A 400-year rise by about 6 cm per century up to 1400 AD
Another stable period from 1400 AD up to the late 19th C
A rapid rise by about 20 cm since.
[/quote]

TL;DR KISS:
~1200 years of ~0.0 mm/yr
~400 years of +0.6 mm/yr
~450 years of: -0.1 mm/yr
~1850-present: +2.1 mm/yr

<https://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/06/2000-years-of-sea-level/>

Doing the math, the history is ~195mm over 2000 years = +0.1 mm/yr,
which means that today's 2.1 mm/yr is a 20x greater rate of change.

-hh

On 2025-01-03, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 02/01/2025 20:04, rbowman wrote:
>> What isn't 'woke' these days? The language is over the top but does the
>> end result really differ from civilized behavior in the workplace?
>
> Yes. Absolutely it does.
>
> Civilised behaviour is a culture of tolerance. Woke is a culture of
> vicious intolerance towards anyone who challenges a narrow definition of
> a modern Puritanism.
>
> Civilised behaviour doesn't get you fired. Civilised behaviour doesn't
> get you blacklisted.
>
> Woke is part of the reason Trump will be president. People don't like
> being told what to think. This isn't Putin's Russia.
>
>
+1
Well stated.

pH

On 2025-01-03, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Woke is part of the reason Trump will be president. People don't like
> being told what to think. This isn't Putin's Russia.

People might not like being told what to think, but many of them
_love_ telling other people what to think. Any leader who promises
to do this for them is a shoo-in, and they will be happy until the
inevitable day when said leader tries to tell _them_ what to think.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On 2025-01-03 09:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/01/2025 13:56, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>> On 2025-01-03 06:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 02/01/2025 20:06, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>> On 2025-01-02 14:42, rbowman wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 2 Jan 2025 08:36:41 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I find GNOME rather clunky whereas KDE, at least on Fedora and
>>>>>> Nobara,
>>>>>> is perfect out of the box. I imagine that a lot of people who try out
>>>>>> Linux and face GNOME are going to wonder how to do the basics, and
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> will likely find that the way extensions work is rather clunky,
>>>>>> especially during upgrades. Meanwhile, KDE is very familiar and
>>>>>> offers a
>>>>>> ton of features they could only dream of in Windows like the desktop
>>>>>> effects, theming options and widgets. Unlike Cinnamon too, the
>>>>>> widgets
>>>>>> in KDE actually work as they should.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Ubuntu box has GNOME. I live with it but I'm not a fan. I'd rather
>>>>> have a menu structure rather than the 'Show Applications' button that
>>>>> brings up three or four screens of unsorted stuff.
>>>>
>>>> GNOME was designed with the belief that anyone looking for an
>>>> application will press the Windows key and then type the name of
>>>> what they're looking for rather than select it from a menu. That's
>>>> how I do it whether I use Windows, GNOME or KDE so I would agree
>>>> with their design choice.
>>>>
>>> Odd, since MATE - a superset of GNOME - expects you to use a menu.
>>> Its very XP like.
>>>
>>> And since XP was what I was running when I switched entirely to
>>> Linux, I didn't have to relearn very much at all..
>>
>> We are talking about GNOME _now_ not then.
>>
> Fairy Nuff. I have no idea what it is now, but MATE is still built on
> gnome3  libraries AFAIK
> And was a sort of fork of gnome2 desktop

I always thought that MATE used GTK2. If it indeed uses GTK3, all the
better.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

-highhorse wrote:

>Its a tool like anything else, so use the right tool for the job.
>
>Advocates in COLA have historically fight against the wisdom of
>understanding that everything has its own strengths & weaknesses,
>swimming against uses where other solutions are better.

Of course, -highhorse is lying. He's a trolling asshole who gets-off
on attacking decent, reasonable people. His solutions are better, by
gum, and he'll ridicule anyone who thinks otherwise.

According to the -highhorse troll, "Linux is what sloppy cheapskates
who cut corners prefer to use, rather than a quality product."

--
'The only ones who are [using Linux] have found that there's a
compelling reason to tolerate its high level of bullshit.' - lying
asshole "-hh"

On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 08:41:35 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> I had a similar experience a week or so ago. I was sitting in a
> supermarket parking lot in my new QX60 when the daughter of the guy who
> parked to the left of me decided to open her car door wide and smack my
> vehicle.

That's something I have to watch very carefully. I've got a 2 door
hatchback and the doors are wide enough to allow a hypothetical person to
get in the back seat. I folded the back seats forward the day I took
delivery of the car so that's a moot point but sometimes to avoid contact
I have to slither out through a partially open door. When they layout
parking lots for maximum volume they ignore about 50% of the vehicles will
be oversized pickups that really makes the situation worse.

On 1/3/25 3:16 PM, chrisv wrote:
> -highhorse wrote:
>
>> Its a tool like anything else, so use the right tool for the job.
>>
>> Advocates in COLA have historically fight against the wisdom of
>> understanding that everything has its own strengths & weaknesses,
>> swimming against uses where other solutions are better.
>
> Of course, -highhorse is lying. He's a trolling asshole who gets-off
> on attacking decent, reasonable people. His solutions are better, by
> gum, and he'll ridicule anyone who thinks otherwise.
>
> According to the -highhorse troll, "Linux is what sloppy cheapskates
> who cut corners prefer to use, rather than a quality product."
>

Context: OP source article:

"Help! My fridge is full of spam and so is my router, set-top box and
console

Security company says it discovered spam and phishing campaign run over
Christmas, which involved internet fridge"

<https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jan/21/fridge-spam-security-phishing-campaign>

It was a COLA thread on how Linux appliances were getting malware, and
the fanboys trying to deny it: they couldn't address a key question:

"So then why is it that a primary premise of Open Source - - security
through many eyes - - so utterly failed here?"

Likewise, they tried to save face, by saying "there are no linux viruses
in the wild." - - but that's another irrelevant red herring dodge,
because the exploit wasn't via a 'virus', but an open port.

My summary which chrisv tried to warp was:

[quote]
....it was (past tense) a 3rd party vector via a Trojan: absolutely no OS
platform is immune from Social Engineering, nor really to 3rd party
add-ons affecting stuff, either. As such, your claim falls way short,
particularly the same revision of Java on Linux OS had the same
susceptibility: the only bitch point you can try to have is how Apple
controlled their Java revision - but that was fixed due to this
occurrence, so it is now a 2 year old moot point.

Bottom line is that there are appliances being sold which didn't have
the flaw that these Linux appliances did - and trying to defend badly
done work is problematic, because it too screams that Linux is what
sloppy cheapskates who cut corners prefer to use, rather than a quality
product.
[/quote]

Allegations of dishonesty .. is up to the reader to decide for themself.

-hh

On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 11:28:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Odd, since MATE - a superset of GNOME - expects you to use a menu. Its
> very XP like.
>
> And since XP was what I was running when I switched entirely to Linux, I
> didn't have to relearn very much at all..

My first Windows box was 3.1 with the Program Manager. That was a little
primitive. Windows 95 introduced the Start Menu and for better or worse
became what I thought the desktop should look like.

I forget all the managers I tried on Linux in the early days. mwm, tmw,
FVWM, IceWM, Sawfish, etc but I preferred the ones that looked like
Windows.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 11:28:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Odd, since MATE - a superset of GNOME - expects you to use a menu. Its
>> very XP like.
>>
>> And since XP was what I was running when I switched entirely to Linux, I
>> didn't have to relearn very much at all..
>
>My first Windows box was 3.1 with the Program Manager. That was a little
>primitive. Windows 95 introduced the Start Menu and for better or worse
>became what I thought the desktop should look like.
>
>I forget all the managers I tried on Linux in the early days. mwm, tmw,
>FVWM, IceWM, Sawfish, etc but I preferred the ones that looked like
>Windows.

Cinnamon really does a good job, I would almost go for Xfce instead
but since Debian offered Cinnamon, it was an obvious choice, a bonus
great feature. But something roughly like Win95 is necessary, yes,
GNOME3 is OK but just not smooth enough to work with.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 11:43:48 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> What if you are new and don't know the name of the applications?

I just tried typing “photo” into the KDE Plasma Launcher, and it offered
four candidate matches: “GIMP” (of course), “Document Scanner”, “Cheese”
(webcam) and “Gwenview” (image viewer).

So this is a common function across Linux GUIs. And the information used
to implement the matching is not specific to any particular GUI
environment.