Somebody on a subReddit mentioned they were given a Latitude D630 and that
they were going to install Linux on it. Made me realize that I hadn't
updated my D630, it was still running Linux Mint 18.3 (so, it was about a
year and a half out of date). So I backed it up and installed Linux Mint 22.
Full install and upgrade took about 25 minutes. It's actually faster than
18.3. Try that with Windows 11 on this computer.

This particular D630 was originally shipped in February of 2008, has a Core
2 Duo CPU (i5-7500) and 4 GBs of RAM. It sleeps and wakes up when the lid is
closed and is reopened, it runs YouTube in full screen (but at 480p, which
is still not bad). So a completely usable laptop (for writing, browsing, and
general use — not for game playing and probably not developing
applications).

One advantage of this old laptop is that it has a real keyboard instead of
one of those flat, limited movement keyboards. It also has a CD/DVD
reader/writer (which I'll probably never use again).

Anyhow, just another advantage of Linux. Quite a few Mac users also install
Linux on their older (out of support) machines.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 8/3/2024 6:19 PM, RonB wrote:

> Somebody on a subReddit mentioned they were given a Latitude D630 and that
> they were going to install Linux on it. Made me realize that I hadn't
> updated my D630, it was still running Linux Mint 18.3 (so, it was about a
> year and a half out of date). So I backed it up and installed Linux Mint 22.
> Full install and upgrade took about 25 minutes. It's actually faster than
> 18.3. Try that with Windows 11 on this computer.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=windows+11+on+dell+d630

On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 20:12:52 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 8/3/2024 6:19 PM, RonB wrote:
>
>> Somebody on a subReddit mentioned they were given a Latitude D630 and that
>> they were going to install Linux on it. Made me realize that I hadn't
>> updated my D630, it was still running Linux Mint 18.3 (so, it was about a
>> year and a half out of date). So I backed it up and installed Linux Mint 22.
>> Full install and upgrade took about 25 minutes. It's actually faster than
>> 18.3. Try that with Windows 11 on this computer.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=windows+11+on+dell+d630

That’s why they say, Windows is a great OS -- if your time is worth
nothing.

Did you actually look at any of those? It’s not so easy. For example
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C_CF2wMHeg>:

How to run Windows 11 on unsupported hardware and boot from usb
(May not work for RTM version)

-Have a Windows 10 and Windows 11 iso
-Extract both iso files
-Delete install.esd from within the Windows 11 sources folder
-After you deleted install.esd, select all other files from within
the Windows 11 sources folder and copy them to the Windows 10
sources folder, overriding all existing files
-Recreate the modified Windows 11 iso and burn on to a dvd or put
on a flash drive with Rufus, selecting the mbr partition scheme

On 2024-08-03 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
> Somebody on a subReddit mentioned they were given a Latitude D630 and that
> they were going to install Linux on it. Made me realize that I hadn't
> updated my D630, it was still running Linux Mint 18.3 (so, it was about a
> year and a half out of date). So I backed it up and installed Linux Mint 22.
> Full install and upgrade took about 25 minutes. It's actually faster than
> 18.3. Try that with Windows 11 on this computer.
>
> This particular D630 was originally shipped in February of 2008, has a Core
> 2 Duo CPU (i5-7500) and 4 GBs of RAM. It sleeps and wakes up when the lid is
> closed and is reopened, it runs YouTube in full screen (but at 480p, which
> is still not bad). So a completely usable laptop (for writing, browsing, and
> general use — not for game playing and probably not developing
> applications).
>
> One advantage of this old laptop is that it has a real keyboard instead of
> one of those flat, limited movement keyboards. It also has a CD/DVD
> reader/writer (which I'll probably never use again).
>
> Anyhow, just another advantage of Linux. Quite a few Mac users also install
> Linux on their older (out of support) machines.

The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to put
it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found that
Linux fails miserably at doing this.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers

On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 07:11:49 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote in
<VlJrO.8957$KuXa.225@fx44.iad>:

> The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to put
> it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found that
> Linux fails miserably at doing this.

"Have you tried turning it off and on again?"

Seriously, though: it seems there might be a common denominator
for these troubles you have with Linux and Windows. Some
consideration might be in order.

Also, are we talking about sleep-to-RAM, or sleep-to-disk? The
latter, I could see having problems with on some systems, because
it is (afaik) relatively new, has special requirements, and
is generally easy to muck-up.

For instance, here's my tufbook, which I recently re-installed:

$ free
total used free shared buff/cache available
Mem: 15984352 1888972 8993964 384972 5101416 13365768
Swap: 15625212 0 15625212

...oops. No sleep-to-disk for me!

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.11.0-rc1 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"The first step to making a dream come true is to wake up"

On 2024-08-04 7:46 a.m., vallor wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 07:11:49 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote in
> <VlJrO.8957$KuXa.225@fx44.iad>:
>
>> The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to put
>> it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found that
>> Linux fails miserably at doing this.
>
> "Have you tried turning it off and on again?"

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of sleep?

> Seriously, though: it seems there might be a common denominator
> for these troubles you have with Linux and Windows. Some
> consideration might be in order.
>
> Also, are we talking about sleep-to-RAM, or sleep-to-disk? The
> latter, I could see having problems with on some systems, because
> it is (afaik) relatively new, has special requirements, and
> is generally easy to muck-up.
>
> For instance, here's my tufbook, which I recently re-installed:
>
> $ free
> total used free shared buff/cache available
> Mem: 15984352 1888972 8993964 384972 5101416 13365768
> Swap: 15625212 0 15625212
>
> ...oops. No sleep-to-disk for me!

While the MSI machine I used to use supported S3 which always available
under Linux, this new machine uses Modern Standby (S0) by default. You
can use a third-party boot utility to change the default to S3 which
detects as s2idle in Linux. I assume that's to RAM. In Windows, both
options work fine but waking from S3 will result in high battery
consumption whereas waking from Modern Standby will work as expected. In
other words, if you set this machine to S3, it won't drain much battery
while it's sleeping but drain like crazy once it's awake whereas if you
keep it at S0, it will drain a small amount regardless of whether you
are sleeping or not. S0 ends up being the better option.

To be fair, while this machine was set to s2idle, it woke from sleep as
expected as long as the slumber wasn't prolonged (like twenty minutes or
an hour). If it was any longer than that, it became a mess. As far as I
know, it didn't hibernate if the sleep was too long, but it's quite
possible that it did. Considering the small size of the default swap
partition in most distributions, I imagine the problem stems from that.
I can't explain the immediate unreliability of sleep on the MSI though
which detected, if I remember correctly, as S3 under Linux.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers

vallor wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 07:11:49 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote in
> <VlJrO.8957$KuXa.225@fx44.iad>:
>
>> The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to put
>> it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found that
>> Linux fails miserably at doing this.
>
> "Have you tried turning it off and on again?"
>
> Seriously, though: it seems there might be a common denominator
> for these troubles you have with Linux and Windows. Some
> consideration might be in order.

Probably misconfigured, or too little RAM/swap-space.

Or maybe:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Suspend_and_hibernate

Kernel versions 6.9.0 through 6.9.8 have broken suspend to disk support if
there is a resume kernel parameter and any error is found checking and/or
reading the suspend data. Upstream bug 218845 is tracking the issue and is
fixed in kernel 6.9.9.

> Also, are we talking about sleep-to-RAM, or sleep-to-disk? The
> latter, I could see having problems with on some systems, because
> it is (afaik) relatively new, has special requirements, and
> is generally easy to muck-up.
>
> For instance, here's my tufbook, which I recently re-installed:
>
> $ free
> total used free shared buff/cache available
> Mem: 15984352 1888972 8993964 384972 5101416 13365768
> Swap: 15625212 0 15625212
>
> ...oops. No sleep-to-disk for me!

I don't use sleep (except for screen blanking). The ASUS is on all the time so
I can access it, and the Lenovo boots to login within a few seconds.

--
Do what comes naturally. Seethe and fume and throw a tantrum.

On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 08:49:29 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>
wrote in <v8ntcp$28h3$1@dont-email.me>:

> vallor wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 07:11:49 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote
>> in <VlJrO.8957$KuXa.225@fx44.iad>:
>>
>>> The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to
>>> put it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found
>>> that Linux fails miserably at doing this.
>>
>> "Have you tried turning it off and on again?"
>>
>> Seriously, though: it seems there might be a common denominator for
>> these troubles you have with Linux and Windows. Some consideration
>> might be in order.
>
> Probably misconfigured, or too little RAM/swap-space.
>
> Or maybe:
>
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Suspend_and_hibernate
>
> Kernel versions 6.9.0 through 6.9.8 have broken suspend to disk
> support if there is a resume kernel parameter and any error is found
> checking and/or reading the suspend data. Upstream bug 218845 is
> tracking the issue and is fixed in kernel 6.9.9.
>
>> Also, are we talking about sleep-to-RAM, or sleep-to-disk? The latter,
>> I could see having problems with on some systems, because it is (afaik)
>> relatively new, has special requirements, and is generally easy to
>> muck-up.
>>
>> For instance, here's my tufbook, which I recently re-installed:
>>
>> $ free
>> total used free shared buff/cache
>> available
>> Mem: 15984352 1888972 8993964 384972 5101416
>> 13365768 Swap: 15625212 0 15625212
>>
>> ...oops. No sleep-to-disk for me!
>
> I don't use sleep (except for screen blanking). The ASUS is on all the
> time so I can access it, and the Lenovo boots to login within a few
> seconds.

I don't use sleep on my workstation so I, too, can log in from anywhere
at any time.

Hibernate would also require a 258G swap space, which I don't need
(or want -- that's a lot of NVME to allocate for something I would
never use).

Screen blanking: I used to have it just run my xscreensaver with the
display on all the time, but now, I have it blank after an hour of
inactivity. This is to facilitate "pixel cleaning" on my new 42"
monitor. (I'm not joking -- that's what they call the process, which
runs for 6 minutes to make sure there's no screen burn-in on the
OLEDs.)

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.11.0-rc1 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"Death sneaks up on you as a windshield sneaks up on a bug."

vallor wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Screen blanking: I used to have it just run my xscreensaver with the
> display on all the time, but now, I have it blank after an hour of
> inactivity. This is to facilitate "pixel cleaning" on my new 42"
> monitor. (I'm not joking -- that's what they call the process, which
> runs for 6 minutes to make sure there's no screen burn-in on the
> OLEDs.)

Interesting!

--
The time is right to make new friends.

On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-08-03 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>> Somebody on a subReddit mentioned they were given a Latitude D630 and that
>> they were going to install Linux on it. Made me realize that I hadn't
>> updated my D630, it was still running Linux Mint 18.3 (so, it was about a
>> year and a half out of date). So I backed it up and installed Linux Mint 22.
>> Full install and upgrade took about 25 minutes. It's actually faster than
>> 18.3. Try that with Windows 11 on this computer.
>>
>> This particular D630 was originally shipped in February of 2008, has a Core
>> 2 Duo CPU (i5-7500) and 4 GBs of RAM. It sleeps and wakes up when the lid is
>> closed and is reopened, it runs YouTube in full screen (but at 480p, which
>> is still not bad). So a completely usable laptop (for writing, browsing, and
>> general use — not for game playing and probably not developing
>> applications).
>>
>> One advantage of this old laptop is that it has a real keyboard instead of
>> one of those flat, limited movement keyboards. It also has a CD/DVD
>> reader/writer (which I'll probably never use again).
>>
>> Anyhow, just another advantage of Linux. Quite a few Mac users also install
>> Linux on their older (out of support) machines.
>
> The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to put
> it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found that
> Linux fails miserably at doing this.

I'm game. How many hours would you like?

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-08-04 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2024-08-03 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>> Somebody on a subReddit mentioned they were given a Latitude D630 and that
>>> they were going to install Linux on it. Made me realize that I hadn't
>>> updated my D630, it was still running Linux Mint 18.3 (so, it was about a
>>> year and a half out of date). So I backed it up and installed Linux Mint 22.
>>> Full install and upgrade took about 25 minutes. It's actually faster than
>>> 18.3. Try that with Windows 11 on this computer.
>>>
>>> This particular D630 was originally shipped in February of 2008, has a Core
>>> 2 Duo CPU (i5-7500) and 4 GBs of RAM. It sleeps and wakes up when the lid is
>>> closed and is reopened, it runs YouTube in full screen (but at 480p, which
>>> is still not bad). So a completely usable laptop (for writing, browsing, and
>>> general use — not for game playing and probably not developing
>>> applications).
>>>
>>> One advantage of this old laptop is that it has a real keyboard instead of
>>> one of those flat, limited movement keyboards. It also has a CD/DVD
>>> reader/writer (which I'll probably never use again).
>>>
>>> Anyhow, just another advantage of Linux. Quite a few Mac users also install
>>> Linux on their older (out of support) machines.
>>
>> The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to put
>> it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found that
>> Linux fails miserably at doing this.
>
> I'm game. How many hours would you like?

The last time I tried, it was about six.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers

On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-08-04 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> On 2024-08-03 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>>> Somebody on a subReddit mentioned they were given a Latitude D630 and that
>>>> they were going to install Linux on it. Made me realize that I hadn't
>>>> updated my D630, it was still running Linux Mint 18.3 (so, it was about a
>>>> year and a half out of date). So I backed it up and installed Linux Mint 22.
>>>> Full install and upgrade took about 25 minutes. It's actually faster than
>>>> 18.3. Try that with Windows 11 on this computer.
>>>>
>>>> This particular D630 was originally shipped in February of 2008, has a Core
>>>> 2 Duo CPU (i5-7500) and 4 GBs of RAM. It sleeps and wakes up when the lid is
>>>> closed and is reopened, it runs YouTube in full screen (but at 480p, which
>>>> is still not bad). So a completely usable laptop (for writing, browsing, and
>>>> general use — not for game playing and probably not developing
>>>> applications).
>>>>
>>>> One advantage of this old laptop is that it has a real keyboard instead of
>>>> one of those flat, limited movement keyboards. It also has a CD/DVD
>>>> reader/writer (which I'll probably never use again).
>>>>
>>>> Anyhow, just another advantage of Linux. Quite a few Mac users also install
>>>> Linux on their older (out of support) machines.
>>>
>>> The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to put
>>> it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found that
>>> Linux fails miserably at doing this.
>>
>> I'm game. How many hours would you like?
>
> The last time I tried, it was about six.

Okay, I'll open the lid early tomorrow morning and let you know the results.
It's been closed for about an hour now. So it will be at least ten hours
before the opening.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-08-04 9:14 p.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2024-08-04 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>> On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-08-03 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>> Somebody on a subReddit mentioned they were given a Latitude D630 and that
>>>>> they were going to install Linux on it. Made me realize that I hadn't
>>>>> updated my D630, it was still running Linux Mint 18.3 (so, it was about a
>>>>> year and a half out of date). So I backed it up and installed Linux Mint 22.
>>>>> Full install and upgrade took about 25 minutes. It's actually faster than
>>>>> 18.3. Try that with Windows 11 on this computer.
>>>>>
>>>>> This particular D630 was originally shipped in February of 2008, has a Core
>>>>> 2 Duo CPU (i5-7500) and 4 GBs of RAM. It sleeps and wakes up when the lid is
>>>>> closed and is reopened, it runs YouTube in full screen (but at 480p, which
>>>>> is still not bad). So a completely usable laptop (for writing, browsing, and
>>>>> general use — not for game playing and probably not developing
>>>>> applications).
>>>>>
>>>>> One advantage of this old laptop is that it has a real keyboard instead of
>>>>> one of those flat, limited movement keyboards. It also has a CD/DVD
>>>>> reader/writer (which I'll probably never use again).
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyhow, just another advantage of Linux. Quite a few Mac users also install
>>>>> Linux on their older (out of support) machines.
>>>>
>>>> The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to put
>>>> it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found that
>>>> Linux fails miserably at doing this.
>>>
>>> I'm game. How many hours would you like?
>>
>> The last time I tried, it was about six.
>
> Okay, I'll open the lid early tomorrow morning and let you know the results.
> It's been closed for about an hour now. So it will be at least ten hours
> before the opening.

If it works right, I'll have no choice but to consider Dell for my next
machine. This ASUS already behaves better than the MSI and Sony did
before it with Linux, but it's still not a perfect experience.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers

On 2024-08-05, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-08-04 9:14 p.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> On 2024-08-04 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>>> On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-08-03 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>>> Somebody on a subReddit mentioned they were given a Latitude D630 and that
>>>>>> they were going to install Linux on it. Made me realize that I hadn't
>>>>>> updated my D630, it was still running Linux Mint 18.3 (so, it was about a
>>>>>> year and a half out of date). So I backed it up and installed Linux Mint 22.
>>>>>> Full install and upgrade took about 25 minutes. It's actually faster than
>>>>>> 18.3. Try that with Windows 11 on this computer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This particular D630 was originally shipped in February of 2008, has a Core
>>>>>> 2 Duo CPU (i5-7500) and 4 GBs of RAM. It sleeps and wakes up when the lid is
>>>>>> closed and is reopened, it runs YouTube in full screen (but at 480p, which
>>>>>> is still not bad). So a completely usable laptop (for writing, browsing, and
>>>>>> general use — not for game playing and probably not developing
>>>>>> applications).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One advantage of this old laptop is that it has a real keyboard instead of
>>>>>> one of those flat, limited movement keyboards. It also has a CD/DVD
>>>>>> reader/writer (which I'll probably never use again).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyhow, just another advantage of Linux. Quite a few Mac users also install
>>>>>> Linux on their older (out of support) machines.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to put
>>>>> it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found that
>>>>> Linux fails miserably at doing this.
>>>>
>>>> I'm game. How many hours would you like?
>>>
>>> The last time I tried, it was about six.
>>
>> Okay, I'll open the lid early tomorrow morning and let you know the results.
>> It's been closed for about an hour now. So it will be at least ten hours
>> before the opening.
>
> If it works right, I'll have no choice but to consider Dell for my next
> machine. This ASUS already behaves better than the MSI and Sony did
> before it with Linux, but it's still not a perfect experience.

11.5 hours and it came up when the lid was opened. Just to be clear, this is
"sleep" not "hibernation." I guess I should try "hibernation" (suspension?)
now to see if that works correctly.

As for going with Dell, I can't personally vouch for their newer machines as
I don't have one, but the older business laptops seem to be pretty solid
with Linux. If a Latitude comes with a Broadcom WiFi card I switch it out
for an Intel one. Even when I get the Broadcoms to work they always work
"half-assed." It's worth the $5-$7 to buy a used Intel WiFi card in my
opinion.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-08-05 7:44 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-08-05, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2024-08-04 9:14 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>> On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-08-04 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-08-03 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>>>> Somebody on a subReddit mentioned they were given a Latitude D630 and that
>>>>>>> they were going to install Linux on it. Made me realize that I hadn't
>>>>>>> updated my D630, it was still running Linux Mint 18.3 (so, it was about a
>>>>>>> year and a half out of date). So I backed it up and installed Linux Mint 22.
>>>>>>> Full install and upgrade took about 25 minutes. It's actually faster than
>>>>>>> 18.3. Try that with Windows 11 on this computer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This particular D630 was originally shipped in February of 2008, has a Core
>>>>>>> 2 Duo CPU (i5-7500) and 4 GBs of RAM. It sleeps and wakes up when the lid is
>>>>>>> closed and is reopened, it runs YouTube in full screen (but at 480p, which
>>>>>>> is still not bad). So a completely usable laptop (for writing, browsing, and
>>>>>>> general use — not for game playing and probably not developing
>>>>>>> applications).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One advantage of this old laptop is that it has a real keyboard instead of
>>>>>>> one of those flat, limited movement keyboards. It also has a CD/DVD
>>>>>>> reader/writer (which I'll probably never use again).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyhow, just another advantage of Linux. Quite a few Mac users also install
>>>>>>> Linux on their older (out of support) machines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to put
>>>>>> it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found that
>>>>>> Linux fails miserably at doing this.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm game. How many hours would you like?
>>>>
>>>> The last time I tried, it was about six.
>>>
>>> Okay, I'll open the lid early tomorrow morning and let you know the results.
>>> It's been closed for about an hour now. So it will be at least ten hours
>>> before the opening.
>>
>> If it works right, I'll have no choice but to consider Dell for my next
>> machine. This ASUS already behaves better than the MSI and Sony did
>> before it with Linux, but it's still not a perfect experience.
>
> 11.5 hours and it came up when the lid was opened. Just to be clear, this is
> "sleep" not "hibernation." I guess I should try "hibernation" (suspension?)
> now to see if that works correctly.

No, you tested the right thing. If it came up immediately and allowed
you to log in without a freeze, then it seems that Dell's hardware is
indeed properly supported in Linux. At the same time, I believe that
you're using a desktop. Maybe my issues had something to do with the
fact that I wasn't plugged in during the entire time that it was sleeping.

However, it is likely that the machine had trouble waking because it
indeed in hibernation. The way my machine is set up in Windows, it will
sleep (s0) for the first twenty minutes or so and then hibernate. I
tested it last evening without meaning to (my son has been causing us to
have erratic sleep patterns) and I recall closing the lid but not
shutting down last night. When I turned it on this morning, the machine
woke and I hadn't lost more than about two or three percent of battery
charge since last night. This is likely the way the machine works in
Linux too: 20 minutes of simply turning off the screen and then
hibernating. If it is, then I can imagine why it has trouble waking from
hibernate: the swap file is much too small. If I recall, every
Ubuntu-based distribution creates a 2GB swap file by default which makes
no sense if you have 32GB of RAM. As far as I know, you would need 1.5x
the amount of swap as you have RAM for a total of 48GB in my case.

Of course, I already tried this on the old MSI and it didn't help. With
Linux, sleep/wake simply did not work right on the GT72.

> As for going with Dell, I can't personally vouch for their newer machines as
> I don't have one, but the older business laptops seem to be pretty solid
> with Linux. If a Latitude comes with a Broadcom WiFi card I switch it out
> for an Intel one. Even when I get the Broadcoms to work they always work
> "half-assed." It's worth the $5-$7 to buy a used Intel WiFi card in my
> opinion.

I doubt the Broadcoms are anywhere as bad as the MediaTek this laptop
came with. Do a search for MediaTek MT7921 and you'll read a ton of
nightmare stories. Having this machine is a pain in the ass unless you
go in there and switch the chip with an Intel AX210 as quickly as possible.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers

On 2024-08-05, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-08-05 7:44 a.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-08-05, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> On 2024-08-04 9:14 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>>> On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-08-04 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-08-03 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>>>>> Somebody on a subReddit mentioned they were given a Latitude D630 and that
>>>>>>>> they were going to install Linux on it. Made me realize that I hadn't
>>>>>>>> updated my D630, it was still running Linux Mint 18.3 (so, it was about a
>>>>>>>> year and a half out of date). So I backed it up and installed Linux Mint 22.
>>>>>>>> Full install and upgrade took about 25 minutes. It's actually faster than
>>>>>>>> 18.3. Try that with Windows 11 on this computer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This particular D630 was originally shipped in February of 2008, has a Core
>>>>>>>> 2 Duo CPU (i5-7500) and 4 GBs of RAM. It sleeps and wakes up when the lid is
>>>>>>>> closed and is reopened, it runs YouTube in full screen (but at 480p, which
>>>>>>>> is still not bad). So a completely usable laptop (for writing, browsing, and
>>>>>>>> general use — not for game playing and probably not developing
>>>>>>>> applications).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One advantage of this old laptop is that it has a real keyboard instead of
>>>>>>>> one of those flat, limited movement keyboards. It also has a CD/DVD
>>>>>>>> reader/writer (which I'll probably never use again).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyhow, just another advantage of Linux. Quite a few Mac users also install
>>>>>>>> Linux on their older (out of support) machines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to put
>>>>>>> it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found that
>>>>>>> Linux fails miserably at doing this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm game. How many hours would you like?
>>>>>
>>>>> The last time I tried, it was about six.
>>>>
>>>> Okay, I'll open the lid early tomorrow morning and let you know the results.
>>>> It's been closed for about an hour now. So it will be at least ten hours
>>>> before the opening.
>>>
>>> If it works right, I'll have no choice but to consider Dell for my next
>>> machine. This ASUS already behaves better than the MSI and Sony did
>>> before it with Linux, but it's still not a perfect experience.
>>
>> 11.5 hours and it came up when the lid was opened. Just to be clear, this is
>> "sleep" not "hibernation." I guess I should try "hibernation" (suspension?)
>> now to see if that works correctly.
>
> No, you tested the right thing. If it came up immediately and allowed
> you to log in without a freeze, then it seems that Dell's hardware is
> indeed properly supported in Linux. At the same time, I believe that
> you're using a desktop. Maybe my issues had something to do with the
> fact that I wasn't plugged in during the entire time that it was sleeping.

No, the Latitude D630 is a laptop. First released in 2007. (Mine was shipped
to its original owner on February 27, 2008.)

> However, it is likely that the machine had trouble waking because it
> indeed in hibernation. The way my machine is set up in Windows, it will
> sleep (s0) for the first twenty minutes or so and then hibernate. I
> tested it last evening without meaning to (my son has been causing us to
> have erratic sleep patterns) and I recall closing the lid but not
> shutting down last night. When I turned it on this morning, the machine
> woke and I hadn't lost more than about two or three percent of battery
> charge since last night. This is likely the way the machine works in
> Linux too: 20 minutes of simply turning off the screen and then
> hibernating. If it is, then I can imagine why it has trouble waking from
> hibernate: the swap file is much too small. If I recall, every
> Ubuntu-based distribution creates a 2GB swap file by default which makes
> no sense if you have 32GB of RAM. As far as I know, you would need 1.5x
> the amount of swap as you have RAM for a total of 48GB in my case.

No, I don't have the computer set to go into hibernation. It's not even
supported "out of box" in Linux Mint (I've been checking into it). They call
"sleep" suspend, so I was wrong when I thought "suspend" meant hibernate. I
think it is possible to enable hibernation but I really don't want it. On
older laptops (like mine) I think it's actually quicker to power up a
computer then to have it come out of hibernation. (I guess, though, you lose
your open applications, but I always close out of them before shutting down
anyhow.)

> Of course, I already tried this on the old MSI and it didn't help. With
> Linux, sleep/wake simply did not work right on the GT72.
>
>> As for going with Dell, I can't personally vouch for their newer machines as
>> I don't have one, but the older business laptops seem to be pretty solid
>> with Linux. If a Latitude comes with a Broadcom WiFi card I switch it out
>> for an Intel one. Even when I get the Broadcoms to work they always work
>> "half-assed." It's worth the $5-$7 to buy a used Intel WiFi card in my
>> opinion.
>
> I doubt the Broadcoms are anywhere as bad as the MediaTek this laptop
> came with. Do a search for MediaTek MT7921 and you'll read a ton of
> nightmare stories. Having this machine is a pain in the ass unless you
> go in there and switch the chip with an Intel AX210 as quickly as possible.

I've read the horror stories about MediaTek WiFi cards (why does any company
use them?). I know Broadcom WiFi cards work well in Windows, but they have
to reverse engineer the drivers for them in Linux and it's a crapshoot. Some
models work well, others are worthless. (The Broadcom WiFi chip in the Mac Mini
seems to be well supported in Linux.)

I'm going to upgrade an XPS M1330 to Linux Mint 22 (another old Dell
laptop). I'll test that one for waking out of sleep also. I think the XPS is
even older than the Latitude D630, but I'm not absolutely positive about
that.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-08-05, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>
> No, you tested the right thing. If it came up immediately and allowed
> you to log in without a freeze, then it seems that Dell's hardware is
> indeed properly supported in Linux. At the same time, I believe that
> you're using a desktop. Maybe my issues had something to do with the
> fact that I wasn't plugged in during the entire time that it was sleeping.

Meant to mention that I haven't had any trouble with Dell desktops coming
out sleep. It didn't even occur to me that that could be an issue. I thought
it was more of an issue with computers that run on batteries.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-08-05 9:46 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-08-05, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2024-08-05 7:44 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>> On 2024-08-05, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-08-04 9:14 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-08-04 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-08-04, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-03 6:19 p.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Somebody on a subReddit mentioned they were given a Latitude D630 and that
>>>>>>>>> they were going to install Linux on it. Made me realize that I hadn't
>>>>>>>>> updated my D630, it was still running Linux Mint 18.3 (so, it was about a
>>>>>>>>> year and a half out of date). So I backed it up and installed Linux Mint 22.
>>>>>>>>> Full install and upgrade took about 25 minutes. It's actually faster than
>>>>>>>>> 18.3. Try that with Windows 11 on this computer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This particular D630 was originally shipped in February of 2008, has a Core
>>>>>>>>> 2 Duo CPU (i5-7500) and 4 GBs of RAM. It sleeps and wakes up when the lid is
>>>>>>>>> closed and is reopened, it runs YouTube in full screen (but at 480p, which
>>>>>>>>> is still not bad). So a completely usable laptop (for writing, browsing, and
>>>>>>>>> general use — not for game playing and probably not developing
>>>>>>>>> applications).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One advantage of this old laptop is that it has a real keyboard instead of
>>>>>>>>> one of those flat, limited movement keyboards. It also has a CD/DVD
>>>>>>>>> reader/writer (which I'll probably never use again).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyhow, just another advantage of Linux. Quite a few Mac users also install
>>>>>>>>> Linux on their older (out of support) machines.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only way you can really test the wake/sleep functionality is to put
>>>>>>>> it to sleep and wake it hours later. In most cases, I've found that
>>>>>>>> Linux fails miserably at doing this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm game. How many hours would you like?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The last time I tried, it was about six.
>>>>>
>>>>> Okay, I'll open the lid early tomorrow morning and let you know the results.
>>>>> It's been closed for about an hour now. So it will be at least ten hours
>>>>> before the opening.
>>>>
>>>> If it works right, I'll have no choice but to consider Dell for my next
>>>> machine. This ASUS already behaves better than the MSI and Sony did
>>>> before it with Linux, but it's still not a perfect experience.
>>>
>>> 11.5 hours and it came up when the lid was opened. Just to be clear, this is
>>> "sleep" not "hibernation." I guess I should try "hibernation" (suspension?)
>>> now to see if that works correctly.
>>
>> No, you tested the right thing. If it came up immediately and allowed
>> you to log in without a freeze, then it seems that Dell's hardware is
>> indeed properly supported in Linux. At the same time, I believe that
>> you're using a desktop. Maybe my issues had something to do with the
>> fact that I wasn't plugged in during the entire time that it was sleeping.
>
> No, the Latitude D630 is a laptop. First released in 2007. (Mine was shipped
> to its original owner on February 27, 2008.)

So, Dell it is if I want a machine capable of running Linux reliably and
don't want to go for a System76 or ThinkPenguin.

>> However, it is likely that the machine had trouble waking because it
>> indeed in hibernation. The way my machine is set up in Windows, it will
>> sleep (s0) for the first twenty minutes or so and then hibernate. I
>> tested it last evening without meaning to (my son has been causing us to
>> have erratic sleep patterns) and I recall closing the lid but not
>> shutting down last night. When I turned it on this morning, the machine
>> woke and I hadn't lost more than about two or three percent of battery
>> charge since last night. This is likely the way the machine works in
>> Linux too: 20 minutes of simply turning off the screen and then
>> hibernating. If it is, then I can imagine why it has trouble waking from
>> hibernate: the swap file is much too small. If I recall, every
>> Ubuntu-based distribution creates a 2GB swap file by default which makes
>> no sense if you have 32GB of RAM. As far as I know, you would need 1.5x
>> the amount of swap as you have RAM for a total of 48GB in my case.
>
> No, I don't have the computer set to go into hibernation. It's not even
> supported "out of box" in Linux Mint (I've been checking into it). They call
> "sleep" suspend, so I was wrong when I thought "suspend" meant hibernate. I
> think it is possible to enable hibernation but I really don't want it. On
> older laptops (like mine) I think it's actually quicker to power up a
> computer then to have it come out of hibernation. (I guess, though, you lose
> your open applications, but I always close out of them before shutting down
> anyhow.)

Hibernation is indeed useless on machines that suspend reliably in S3.
However, most current machines not manufactured by Apple use S0 (Modern
Standby) which wakes (barely) faster than a machine using the old S3.
While it is "sleeping," it uses less power but not as little as an S3
sleeper would. For those machines, using hibernation makes sense because
continuous sleep would drain the battery continuously.

To give you a quick example, Mac users are the kind of people who never
shut down. When they're done with their work, they simply close the lid.
If they wake two days later, they expect the machine to still have as
much battery as it did when they put it to sleep. By default, MacOS no
longer affords them this possibility but it is rather easy to disable
the equivalent of modern standby on MacOS to make it possible. In
Windows, Modern Standby is the default everywhere. If your computer uses
about 10,000 mW every hour, closing the lid will drop its use to about
2,000 mW. However, it is still draining. If hibernation is not enabled,
the machine won't eventually "turn off" so if you're trying to do what
the Mac users do, the machine will no longer have any left to it when
you open the lid. It is impossible to disable Modern Standby on most new
machines. Even in my cases, I have to use a third-party utility to
disable it in the BIOS and revert to the old S3. It will work properly
when I go to sleep, but when it wakes the machine will use a ridiculous
amount of power (like 25,000 mW) whereas sticking to S0 will get to run
normally at 5,500 mW or so. For me, it makes more sense to stick to
Modern Standby but enable hibernation if I'm away from the machine for a
long time and don't want to shut down.

Why is Modern Standby the default? Because Microsoft and manufacturers
figured that most users want instant-on. Additionally, Modern Standby
allows the network to still be connected even though the machine is
sleeping. So you can push updates even during that time. Theoretically,
you can kill whatever additional drain S0 causes by disabling the
network connectivity, but manufacturers often disable that the same way
they disable reverting to S3.

In Linux, Modern Standby simply doesn't work so you _need_ for S3 to
work reliably. On this machine, it works but not reliably. If I don't
set it to use S3, closing the lid will do nothing other than maybe shut
down the screen. If I make the mistake of putting my laptop in its bag
after closing the lid, it will drain and overheat, potentially killing
the computer entirely.

>> Of course, I already tried this on the old MSI and it didn't help. With
>> Linux, sleep/wake simply did not work right on the GT72.
>>
>>> As for going with Dell, I can't personally vouch for their newer machines as
>>> I don't have one, but the older business laptops seem to be pretty solid
>>> with Linux. If a Latitude comes with a Broadcom WiFi card I switch it out
>>> for an Intel one. Even when I get the Broadcoms to work they always work
>>> "half-assed." It's worth the $5-$7 to buy a used Intel WiFi card in my
>>> opinion.
>>
>> I doubt the Broadcoms are anywhere as bad as the MediaTek this laptop
>> came with. Do a search for MediaTek MT7921 and you'll read a ton of
>> nightmare stories. Having this machine is a pain in the ass unless you
>> go in there and switch the chip with an Intel AX210 as quickly as possible.
>
> I've read the horror stories about MediaTek WiFi cards (why does any company
> use them?).

On 2024-08-05, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:

Lots of snips.

> So, Dell it is if I want a machine capable of running Linux reliably and
> don't want to go for a System76 or ThinkPenguin.

Well, hold on for a second... I went to start the D630 this evening using
battery power, i.e. not plugged in to the adapter. (I guess, in the past, I
had always started it when it was plugged in, though I have used it without
the battery after starting it — Or maybe this started when the new kernel
was installed?) I worked with it using the adapter because it hadn't been
charged in a while. At any rate, without the D630 being plugged in, it
locked when starting after the grub menu? Works fine with the power plugged
in — nothing wrong with the battery (shows all green lights when the test
button is pushed — used to have these test buttons on old laptop batteries).

So I tried the recovery mode in grub... it would *sometimes* allow me to
"recover" and then resume, but without the right drivers. If I would restart
from there, it would boot with the right drivers coming up. Weird. (And this
wasn't consistent, sometimes recovery mode would hang after the grub menu
and sometimes it would lock when restarting without even getting to grub.)

The "workaround" that works every time is to go into the BIOS (F2 key on a
Dell), do nothing and exit from the BIOS without saving. The D630 will then
boot normally on battery power. A quick Internet search tells me that is
probably a kernel issue. They suggest a BIOS update. I thought I was on the
newest BIOS, but it turns out I'm using A17, which is no longer on Dell's
site, but A18 came out in 2012 — and there's an A19 BIOS that was released
in 2020. So I'll update the BIOS and see if that fixes the issue.

So, yeah, I do occasionally run into Linux bugs but (so far) always find
fixes. I'll report on whether the BIOS fixes this issue or not.

> Hibernation is indeed useless on machines that suspend reliably in S3.
> However, most current machines not manufactured by Apple use S0 (Modern
> Standby) which wakes (barely) faster than a machine using the old S3.
> While it is "sleeping," it uses less power but not as little as an S3
> sleeper would. For those machines, using hibernation makes sense because
> continuous sleep would drain the battery continuously.
>
> To give you a quick example, Mac users are the kind of people who never
> shut down. When they're done with their work, they simply close the lid.
> If they wake two days later, they expect the machine to still have as
> much battery as it did when they put it to sleep. By default, MacOS no
> longer affords them this possibility but it is rather easy to disable
> the equivalent of modern standby on MacOS to make it possible. In
> Windows, Modern Standby is the default everywhere. If your computer uses
> about 10,000 mW every hour, closing the lid will drop its use to about
> 2,000 mW. However, it is still draining. If hibernation is not enabled,
> the machine won't eventually "turn off" so if you're trying to do what
> the Mac users do, the machine will no longer have any left to it when
> you open the lid. It is impossible to disable Modern Standby on most new
> machines. Even in my cases, I have to use a third-party utility to
> disable it in the BIOS and revert to the old S3. It will work properly
> when I go to sleep, but when it wakes the machine will use a ridiculous
> amount of power (like 25,000 mW) whereas sticking to S0 will get to run
> normally at 5,500 mW or so. For me, it makes more sense to stick to
> Modern Standby but enable hibernation if I'm away from the machine for a
> long time and don't want to shut down.
>
> Why is Modern Standby the default? Because Microsoft and manufacturers
> figured that most users want instant-on. Additionally, Modern Standby
> allows the network to still be connected even though the machine is
> sleeping. So you can push updates even during that time. Theoretically,
> you can kill whatever additional drain S0 causes by disabling the
> network connectivity, but manufacturers often disable that the same way
> they disable reverting to S3.
>
> In Linux, Modern Standby simply doesn't work so you _need_ for S3 to
> work reliably. On this machine, it works but not reliably. If I don't
> set it to use S3, closing the lid will do nothing other than maybe shut
> down the screen. If I make the mistake of putting my laptop in its bag
> after closing the lid, it will drain and overheat, potentially killing
> the computer entirely.

Too much information for my feeble brain. I don't know which suspend mode
the D630 uses. I just know it comes on immediately when I open the lid and
the green light blinks slowly when in suspend mode. I'm guessing it does use
more power than the newer computers. It doesn't matter to me because I
almost never leave my laptops in sleep mode for more than a few minutes.

> Because Intel prohibits manufacturers from putting an Intel wireless
> chip on a laptop that uses an AMD processor.

I didn't know that. My D630 is labeled "Centrino," which, I've read, meant
it had an Intel motherboard, Intel CPU and Intel WiFi card. I've seen other
D630s without Centrino labels, because they came with Broadcom WiFi cards. I
have no idea why Dell didn't just always use Intel WiFi cards. Apparently
this has changed recently?

> I would bet that the wireless chips that uses 802.11ac work well but the
> 802.11ax do not.

I don't know what the "ax" stands for.

> I hope you have some luck because it would mean that I could eventually
> move to Linux with confidence. However, the wokeness of the developers
> at the moment is another hurdle. I figure it's a matter of time before
> they do to LibreOffice what they did to Microsoft Office with its
> automatic "inclusive language" functionality. Luckily, it's disabled by
> default.

That update is going to be put on hold until I figure out the D630 issue. I
think I'm already running Linux Mint 20 on that computer, so it's still
supported until next April.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-08-06, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:

> probably a kernel issue. They suggest a BIOS update. I thought I was on the
> newest BIOS, but it turns out I'm using A17, which is no longer on Dell's
> site, but A18 came out in 2012 — and there's an A19 BIOS that was released
> in 2020. So I'll update the BIOS and see if that fixes the issue.

The A17 BIOS was released on January 4th, 2010 — so I guess it is a little
old.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-08-05 9:01 p.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-08-05, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>
> Lots of snips.
>
>> So, Dell it is if I want a machine capable of running Linux reliably and
>> don't want to go for a System76 or ThinkPenguin.
>
> Well, hold on for a second... I went to start the D630 this evening using
> battery power, i.e. not plugged in to the adapter. (I guess, in the past, I
> had always started it when it was plugged in, though I have used it without
> the battery after starting it — Or maybe this started when the new kernel
> was installed?) I worked with it using the adapter because it hadn't been
> charged in a while. At any rate, without the D630 being plugged in, it
> locked when starting after the grub menu? Works fine with the power plugged
> in — nothing wrong with the battery (shows all green lights when the test
> button is pushed — used to have these test buttons on old laptop batteries).
>
> So I tried the recovery mode in grub... it would *sometimes* allow me to
> "recover" and then resume, but without the right drivers. If I would restart
> from there, it would boot with the right drivers coming up. Weird. (And this
> wasn't consistent, sometimes recovery mode would hang after the grub menu
> and sometimes it would lock when restarting without even getting to grub.)
>
> The "workaround" that works every time is to go into the BIOS (F2 key on a
> Dell), do nothing and exit from the BIOS without saving. The D630 will then
> boot normally on battery power. A quick Internet search tells me that is
> probably a kernel issue. They suggest a BIOS update. I thought I was on the
> newest BIOS, but it turns out I'm using A17, which is no longer on Dell's
> site, but A18 came out in 2012 — and there's an A19 BIOS that was released
> in 2020. So I'll update the BIOS and see if that fixes the issue.
>
> So, yeah, I do occasionally run into Linux bugs but (so far) always find
> fixes. I'll report on whether the BIOS fixes this issue or not.

I imagine that it will. I'm glad that you're honest about the bugs. In
my case, I don't have the patience to deal with occasional bugs that I
used to. I'd love to get away from a world where big tech has any
influence over me, but I'm not willing to get surprised with a freeze
while I'm working on something or teaching a class.

>> Hibernation is indeed useless on machines that suspend reliably in S3.
>> However, most current machines not manufactured by Apple use S0 (Modern
>> Standby) which wakes (barely) faster than a machine using the old S3.
>> While it is "sleeping," it uses less power but not as little as an S3
>> sleeper would. For those machines, using hibernation makes sense because
>> continuous sleep would drain the battery continuously.
>>
>> To give you a quick example, Mac users are the kind of people who never
>> shut down. When they're done with their work, they simply close the lid.
>> If they wake two days later, they expect the machine to still have as
>> much battery as it did when they put it to sleep. By default, MacOS no
>> longer affords them this possibility but it is rather easy to disable
>> the equivalent of modern standby on MacOS to make it possible. In
>> Windows, Modern Standby is the default everywhere. If your computer uses
>> about 10,000 mW every hour, closing the lid will drop its use to about
>> 2,000 mW. However, it is still draining. If hibernation is not enabled,
>> the machine won't eventually "turn off" so if you're trying to do what
>> the Mac users do, the machine will no longer have any left to it when
>> you open the lid. It is impossible to disable Modern Standby on most new
>> machines. Even in my cases, I have to use a third-party utility to
>> disable it in the BIOS and revert to the old S3. It will work properly
>> when I go to sleep, but when it wakes the machine will use a ridiculous
>> amount of power (like 25,000 mW) whereas sticking to S0 will get to run
>> normally at 5,500 mW or so. For me, it makes more sense to stick to
>> Modern Standby but enable hibernation if I'm away from the machine for a
>> long time and don't want to shut down.
>>
>> Why is Modern Standby the default? Because Microsoft and manufacturers
>> figured that most users want instant-on. Additionally, Modern Standby
>> allows the network to still be connected even though the machine is
>> sleeping. So you can push updates even during that time. Theoretically,
>> you can kill whatever additional drain S0 causes by disabling the
>> network connectivity, but manufacturers often disable that the same way
>> they disable reverting to S3.
>>
>> In Linux, Modern Standby simply doesn't work so you _need_ for S3 to
>> work reliably. On this machine, it works but not reliably. If I don't
>> set it to use S3, closing the lid will do nothing other than maybe shut
>> down the screen. If I make the mistake of putting my laptop in its bag
>> after closing the lid, it will drain and overheat, potentially killing
>> the computer entirely.
>
> Too much information for my feeble brain. I don't know which suspend mode
> the D630 uses. I just know it comes on immediately when I open the lid and
> the green light blinks slowly when in suspend mode. I'm guessing it does use
> more power than the newer computers. It doesn't matter to me because I
> almost never leave my laptops in sleep mode for more than a few minutes.

Sleep is mostly useless to people who use their computer in one place at
all times. In my case, it's not unusual to go from one room to another.
Sleeping, moving to the next room and waking is a lot more convenient
than constantly restarting the machine, especially if your bootup
process includes logging into the system, then logging into Bitwarden,
then logging into the Bitwarden extension in your browser before logging
into a site. Sometimes, you just want everything to already be
authenticated so you can get going.

>> Because Intel prohibits manufacturers from putting an Intel wireless
>> chip on a laptop that uses an AMD processor.
>
> I didn't know that. My D630 is labeled "Centrino," which, I've read, meant
> it had an Intel motherboard, Intel CPU and Intel WiFi card. I've seen other
> D630s without Centrino labels, because they came with Broadcom WiFi cards. I
> have no idea why Dell didn't just always use Intel WiFi cards. Apparently
> this has changed recently?

I wouldn't know. I never really paid attention to the brand of any wifi
chip I had until I had problems with the MediaTek I owned. Even the
Atheros in my MSI was quite reliable.

>> I would bet that the wireless chips that uses 802.11ac work well but the
>> 802.11ax do not.
>
> I don't know what the "ax" stands for.

WiFi 6, so theoretical wireless speeds of 9.6Gbps vs the 3.5Gbps of WiFi
5. Good luck actually getting either of those speeds though.

>> I hope you have some luck because it would mean that I could eventually
>> move to Linux with confidence. However, the wokeness of the developers
>> at the moment is another hurdle. I figure it's a matter of time before
>> they do to LibreOffice what they did to Microsoft Office with its
>> automatic "inclusive language" functionality. Luckily, it's disabled by
>> default.
>
> That update is going to be put on hold until I figure out the D630 issue. I
> think I'm already running Linux Mint 20 on that computer, so it's still
> supported until next April.

I'm sure that you'll figure out the issue, but I worry that it will
simply open up another one. That's been my experience with using
Linux... it's always a game of whack a mole for me. Of course, that's
also been my life. To give you an example, I ended up with a pretty
large puck on the driver side car door on my SUV. I had it painted
professionally for a pretty penny only to get a puck on the driver side
again, this time near the gas container. This kind of stuff always
happens to me.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers

On 2024-08-06, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-08-05 9:01 p.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-08-05, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>
>> Lots of snips.
>>
>>> So, Dell it is if I want a machine capable of running Linux reliably and
>>> don't want to go for a System76 or ThinkPenguin.
>>
>> Well, hold on for a second... I went to start the D630 this evening using
>> battery power, i.e. not plugged in to the adapter. (I guess, in the past, I
>> had always started it when it was plugged in, though I have used it without
>> the battery after starting it — Or maybe this started when the new kernel
>> was installed?) I worked with it using the adapter because it hadn't been
>> charged in a while. At any rate, without the D630 being plugged in, it
>> locked when starting after the grub menu? Works fine with the power plugged
>> in — nothing wrong with the battery (shows all green lights when the test
>> button is pushed — used to have these test buttons on old laptop batteries).
>>
>> So I tried the recovery mode in grub... it would *sometimes* allow me to
>> "recover" and then resume, but without the right drivers. If I would restart
>> from there, it would boot with the right drivers coming up. Weird. (And this
>> wasn't consistent, sometimes recovery mode would hang after the grub menu
>> and sometimes it would lock when restarting without even getting to grub.)
>>
>> The "workaround" that works every time is to go into the BIOS (F2 key on a
>> Dell), do nothing and exit from the BIOS without saving. The D630 will then
>> boot normally on battery power. A quick Internet search tells me that is
>> probably a kernel issue. They suggest a BIOS update. I thought I was on the
>> newest BIOS, but it turns out I'm using A17, which is no longer on Dell's
>> site, but A18 came out in 2012 — and there's an A19 BIOS that was released
>> in 2020. So I'll update the BIOS and see if that fixes the issue.
>>
>> So, yeah, I do occasionally run into Linux bugs but (so far) always find
>> fixes. I'll report on whether the BIOS fixes this issue or not.
>
> I imagine that it will. I'm glad that you're honest about the bugs. In
> my case, I don't have the patience to deal with occasional bugs that I
> used to. I'd love to get away from a world where big tech has any
> influence over me, but I'm not willing to get surprised with a freeze
> while I'm working on something or teaching a class.

It doesn't look like the A19 BIOS was the answer. I do occasionally get the
D630 to boot from the previous kernel but it's intermittent (and it may have
intermittent before). Booting into BIOS and exiting from it still works.

More research.

>>> Hibernation is indeed useless on machines that suspend reliably in S3.
>>> However, most current machines not manufactured by Apple use S0 (Modern
>>> Standby) which wakes (barely) faster than a machine using the old S3.
>>> While it is "sleeping," it uses less power but not as little as an S3
>>> sleeper would. For those machines, using hibernation makes sense because
>>> continuous sleep would drain the battery continuously.
>>>
>>> To give you a quick example, Mac users are the kind of people who never
>>> shut down. When they're done with their work, they simply close the lid.
>>> If they wake two days later, they expect the machine to still have as
>>> much battery as it did when they put it to sleep. By default, MacOS no
>>> longer affords them this possibility but it is rather easy to disable
>>> the equivalent of modern standby on MacOS to make it possible. In
>>> Windows, Modern Standby is the default everywhere. If your computer uses
>>> about 10,000 mW every hour, closing the lid will drop its use to about
>>> 2,000 mW. However, it is still draining. If hibernation is not enabled,
>>> the machine won't eventually "turn off" so if you're trying to do what
>>> the Mac users do, the machine will no longer have any left to it when
>>> you open the lid. It is impossible to disable Modern Standby on most new
>>> machines. Even in my cases, I have to use a third-party utility to
>>> disable it in the BIOS and revert to the old S3. It will work properly
>>> when I go to sleep, but when it wakes the machine will use a ridiculous
>>> amount of power (like 25,000 mW) whereas sticking to S0 will get to run
>>> normally at 5,500 mW or so. For me, it makes more sense to stick to
>>> Modern Standby but enable hibernation if I'm away from the machine for a
>>> long time and don't want to shut down.
>>>
>>> Why is Modern Standby the default? Because Microsoft and manufacturers
>>> figured that most users want instant-on. Additionally, Modern Standby
>>> allows the network to still be connected even though the machine is
>>> sleeping. So you can push updates even during that time. Theoretically,
>>> you can kill whatever additional drain S0 causes by disabling the
>>> network connectivity, but manufacturers often disable that the same way
>>> they disable reverting to S3.
>>>
>>> In Linux, Modern Standby simply doesn't work so you _need_ for S3 to
>>> work reliably. On this machine, it works but not reliably. If I don't
>>> set it to use S3, closing the lid will do nothing other than maybe shut
>>> down the screen. If I make the mistake of putting my laptop in its bag
>>> after closing the lid, it will drain and overheat, potentially killing
>>> the computer entirely.
>>
>> Too much information for my feeble brain. I don't know which suspend mode
>> the D630 uses. I just know it comes on immediately when I open the lid and
>> the green light blinks slowly when in suspend mode. I'm guessing it does use
>> more power than the newer computers. It doesn't matter to me because I
>> almost never leave my laptops in sleep mode for more than a few minutes.
>
> Sleep is mostly useless to people who use their computer in one place at
> all times. In my case, it's not unusual to go from one room to another.
> Sleeping, moving to the next room and waking is a lot more convenient
> than constantly restarting the machine, especially if your bootup
> process includes logging into the system, then logging into Bitwarden,
> then logging into the Bitwarden extension in your browser before logging
> into a site. Sometimes, you just want everything to already be
> authenticated so you can get going.

Short term sleeping works fine on my laptops — actually what you describe
above (moving from room to room) is the only way I use sleep. Or, if I'm
going to get a cup of coffee or a snack, I'll close the lid of the laptop to
protect it.

>>> Because Intel prohibits manufacturers from putting an Intel wireless
>>> chip on a laptop that uses an AMD processor.
>>
>> I didn't know that. My D630 is labeled "Centrino," which, I've read, meant
>> it had an Intel motherboard, Intel CPU and Intel WiFi card. I've seen other
>> D630s without Centrino labels, because they came with Broadcom WiFi cards. I
>> have no idea why Dell didn't just always use Intel WiFi cards. Apparently
>> this has changed recently?
>
> I wouldn't know. I never really paid attention to the brand of any wifi
> chip I had until I had problems with the MediaTek I owned. Even the
> Atheros in my MSI was quite reliable.

I've rebuilt a lot of cheap Dell laptops (and given away a few of them to
extended relatives) so I've run into this a lot.

>>> I would bet that the wireless chips that uses 802.11ac work well but the
>>> 802.11ax do not.
>>
>> I don't know what the "ax" stands for.
>
> WiFi 6, so theoretical wireless speeds of 9.6Gbps vs the 3.5Gbps of WiFi
> 5. Good luck actually getting either of those speeds though.

Okay. So newer hardware than I'll ever need.

>>> I hope you have some luck because it would mean that I could eventually
>>> move to Linux with confidence. However, the wokeness of the developers
>>> at the moment is another hurdle. I figure it's a matter of time before
>>> they do to LibreOffice what they did to Microsoft Office with its
>>> automatic "inclusive language" functionality. Luckily, it's disabled by
>>> default.
>>
>> That update is going to be put on hold until I figure out the D630 issue. I
>> think I'm already running Linux Mint 20 on that computer, so it's still
>> supported until next April.
>
> I'm sure that you'll figure out the issue, but I worry that it will
> simply open up another one. That's been my experience with using
> Linux... it's always a game of whack a mole for me. Of course, that's
> also been my life. To give you an example, I ended up with a pretty
> large puck on the driver side car door on my SUV. I had it painted
> professionally for a pretty penny only to get a puck on the driver side
> again, this time near the gas container. This kind of stuff always
> happens to me.

On 2024-08-05 9:59 p.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-08-06, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:

< snipped for brevity >

>> I imagine that it will. I'm glad that you're honest about the bugs. In
>> my case, I don't have the patience to deal with occasional bugs that I
>> used to. I'd love to get away from a world where big tech has any
>> influence over me, but I'm not willing to get surprised with a freeze
>> while I'm working on something or teaching a class.
>
> It doesn't look like the A19 BIOS was the answer. I do occasionally get the
> D630 to boot from the previous kernel but it's intermittent (and it may have
> intermittent before). Booting into BIOS and exiting from it still works.
>
> More research.

It's impossible for the developers of any distribution of Linux to get
it working across the board. Like the GT72, it's quite possible that
this hardware setup is just a lost cause with the operating system.

< same >

>> Sleep is mostly useless to people who use their computer in one place at
>> all times. In my case, it's not unusual to go from one room to another.
>> Sleeping, moving to the next room and waking is a lot more convenient
>> than constantly restarting the machine, especially if your bootup
>> process includes logging into the system, then logging into Bitwarden,
>> then logging into the Bitwarden extension in your browser before logging
>> into a site. Sometimes, you just want everything to already be
>> authenticated so you can get going.
>
> Short term sleeping works fine on my laptops — actually what you describe
> above (moving from room to room) is the only way I use sleep. Or, if I'm
> going to get a cup of coffee or a snack, I'll close the lid of the laptop to
> protect it.

I only had trouble with even short-term suspend using any distribution
other than openSUSE on the GT72 and the Vaio VPCCW23FD before it. On the
ASUS, it works as expected. I should mention that I never tried openSUSE
on this laptop. That distribution is pretty much the only one I can
never complain about because it always works right. However, its
developers are the workest of the bunch.

>> I wouldn't know. I never really paid attention to the brand of any wifi
>> chip I had until I had problems with the MediaTek I owned. Even the
>> Atheros in my MSI was quite reliable.
>
> I've rebuilt a lot of cheap Dell laptops (and given away a few of them to
> extended relatives) so I've run into this a lot.

So even the proprietary firmware is problematic under Linux?

>> WiFi 6, so theoretical wireless speeds of 9.6Gbps vs the 3.5Gbps of WiFi
>> 5. Good luck actually getting either of those speeds though.
>
> Okay. So newer hardware than I'll ever need.

I have yet to see a machine actually get anything faster than about
600Mbps through wireless. I'm sure it's possible if your home has no
walls of any kind and you're very close to the router, but it's not a
possibility here. Even if it were, the wires I use in this house are
Cat5e which has a maximum speed of 1,000Mbps. That's not much faster
than the 600Mbps my wireless extenders can manage.

>> I'm sure that you'll figure out the issue, but I worry that it will
>> simply open up another one. That's been my experience with using
>> Linux... it's always a game of whack a mole for me. Of course, that's
>> also been my life. To give you an example, I ended up with a pretty
>> large puck on the driver side car door on my SUV. I had it painted
>> professionally for a pretty penny only to get a puck on the driver side
>> again, this time near the gas container. This kind of stuff always
>> happens to me.
>
> I don't know if I'll figure it out or not. I guess I need to go to the logs,
> which is what is what they always tell you to do. So far I've been able to
> avoid doing that.
>
> Except for the challenge of it, booting into the BIOS and out would probably
> be my "solution" while hoping a future kernel would fix the issue properly.
> Getting the D630 running Linux 22 was more to see if it would work than
> anything else at this point.

As long as you delay the machine's inevitable death in a landfill for as
long as possible, you'll be doing way more for the environment than any
hippy driving an EV.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Progressives are brain-damaged demonic groomers

On 2024-08-06, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-08-05 9:59 p.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-08-06, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>
>< snipped for brevity >
>
>>> I imagine that it will. I'm glad that you're honest about the bugs. In
>>> my case, I don't have the patience to deal with occasional bugs that I
>>> used to. I'd love to get away from a world where big tech has any
>>> influence over me, but I'm not willing to get surprised with a freeze
>>> while I'm working on something or teaching a class.
>>
>> It doesn't look like the A19 BIOS was the answer. I do occasionally get the
>> D630 to boot from the previous kernel but it's intermittent (and it may have
>> intermittent before). Booting into BIOS and exiting from it still works.
>>
>> More research.
>
> It's impossible for the developers of any distribution of Linux to get
> it working across the board. Like the GT72, it's quite possible that
> this hardware setup is just a lost cause with the operating system.

We'll see. My maintenance on Linux is much easier (and less time consuming)
than maintenance on Windows ever was (and is, with my wife's computers).

>< same >
>
>>> Sleep is mostly useless to people who use their computer in one place at
>>> all times. In my case, it's not unusual to go from one room to another.
>>> Sleeping, moving to the next room and waking is a lot more convenient
>>> than constantly restarting the machine, especially if your bootup
>>> process includes logging into the system, then logging into Bitwarden,
>>> then logging into the Bitwarden extension in your browser before logging
>>> into a site. Sometimes, you just want everything to already be
>>> authenticated so you can get going.
>>
>> Short term sleeping works fine on my laptops — actually what you describe
>> above (moving from room to room) is the only way I use sleep. Or, if I'm
>> going to get a cup of coffee or a snack, I'll close the lid of the laptop to
>> protect it.
>
> I only had trouble with even short-term suspend using any distribution
> other than openSUSE on the GT72 and the Vaio VPCCW23FD before it. On the
> ASUS, it works as expected. I should mention that I never tried openSUSE
> on this laptop. That distribution is pretty much the only one I can
> never complain about because it always works right. However, its
> developers are the workest of the bunch.
>
>>> I wouldn't know. I never really paid attention to the brand of any wifi
>>> chip I had until I had problems with the MediaTek I owned. Even the
>>> Atheros in my MSI was quite reliable.
>>
>> I've rebuilt a lot of cheap Dell laptops (and given away a few of them to
>> extended relatives) so I've run into this a lot.
>
> So even the proprietary firmware is problematic under Linux?
>
>>> WiFi 6, so theoretical wireless speeds of 9.6Gbps vs the 3.5Gbps of WiFi
>>> 5. Good luck actually getting either of those speeds though.
>>
>> Okay. So newer hardware than I'll ever need.
>
> I have yet to see a machine actually get anything faster than about
> 600Mbps through wireless. I'm sure it's possible if your home has no
> walls of any kind and you're very close to the router, but it's not a
> possibility here. Even if it were, the wires I use in this house are
> Cat5e which has a maximum speed of 1,000Mbps. That's not much faster
> than the 600Mbps my wireless extenders can manage.

I get about 300Mbps on my "newer" Latitudes when on WiFi. My router is just
an inexpensive TP-Link. The desktop computers in this house (except for one
room) are using wired Ethernet. I was able to re-punch the phone lines to
RJ45 jacks (since the owners of the house ran CAT5 cable to the phone jacks
from a central location). I'm supposed to have 1 GB fiber, but downloads are
usually less than 800 Mpbs, uploads are often in the high 900s, though. More
than fast enough.

>>> I'm sure that you'll figure out the issue, but I worry that it will
>>> simply open up another one. That's been my experience with using
>>> Linux... it's always a game of whack a mole for me. Of course, that's
>>> also been my life. To give you an example, I ended up with a pretty
>>> large puck on the driver side car door on my SUV. I had it painted
>>> professionally for a pretty penny only to get a puck on the driver side
>>> again, this time near the gas container. This kind of stuff always
>>> happens to me.
>>
>> I don't know if I'll figure it out or not. I guess I need to go to the logs,
>> which is what is what they always tell you to do. So far I've been able to
>> avoid doing that.
>>
>> Except for the challenge of it, booting into the BIOS and out would probably
>> be my "solution" while hoping a future kernel would fix the issue properly.
>> Getting the D630 running Linux 22 was more to see if it would work than
>> anything else at this point.
>
> As long as you delay the machine's inevitable death in a landfill for as
> long as possible, you'll be doing way more for the environment than any
> hippy driving an EV.

I'll probably sell it or give it away. (I try not to give away computers to
family members who live close now, since that usually means I'm stuck with
forever support.)

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 08:11:16 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> On 2024-08-04 7:46 a.m., vallor wrote:
>
>> "Have you tried turning it off and on again?"
>
> Doesn't that defeat the purpose of sleep?

Not an “IT Crowd” fan, then ...

(Note the quotation marks.)