On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 14:40:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:01 this Tuesday (GMT):
>> On 16 Jul 2024 00:16:24 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> Before they slapped on the RT monicker, it was referred to as Windows
>>> on ARM.
>>
>> I think after it failed to sell, they dropped the “RT” part. Which
>> meant that customers were liable to think they were getting a regular
>> full- function “Windows” device with an x86 chip, when they were in
>> fact getting a limited-functionality ARM one.
>
>
> Was there no differentiation?

Not enough, at least not at the Best Buy level. MS would have had to take
out full page ads saying "THIS IS NOT A WINDOWS 8 COMPUTER" and I don't
know if that would have even worked.

Maybe they will be more cautious this time about saying some things will
work with emulation but not as well as on x64 and somethings will not work
at all. Otherwise they will have the same early adopters whining.

On 7/16/2024 3:38 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 07:14:30 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I liked the Motorola 68000 (used in the Atari ST). My Sun
>> workstation used a 68020 IIRC.
>
> I had a 68000 development board and it was a nice processor. Motorola
> would have had trouble producing the required 68008 parts. I liked the
> Z8000 because if working with the Z80 but the 68000 was faster. However
> Intel's 8088 was available and cheap.
>
> IBM might have saved Intel's bacon too. Intel had invested a lot in the
> iAPX 432 that was completely different than to 80xx processors and it
> wasn't going well. It staggered on until '86 but they had cash flow from
> the successive generations of the 8086.
>
> There are a lot of twists and turns in the history of computing. Windows
> on Arm Part 2 may take off like a cheetah or it may be another 'well it
> sounded loke a good idea.'

As of a couple days ago:

Top ATX motherboard makers and available chipset choices

Asus : Intel and AMD only
Gigabyte: Intel and AMD only
MSI : Intel and AMD only
ASRock : Intel and AMD only

Can an Arm ATX mobo be found? I looked (not too hard) and couldn't find
even one.

On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 09:52:44 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> WinRT was small scale, you're making a comparison that doesn't
>>> illustrate your point. The XPS 13 has x86 emulation.
>>
>> The point being, Dell isn’t showing any greater commitment to
>> Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM than they previously showed to Windows RT. If
>> this Really Is It as far as Windows finally arriving on ARM, you would
>> expect to see a bigger push on the part of the hardware vendors.
>
> Give it a little time, this won't be the last product introduced.

You keep assuming things will get better for Windows-on-Qualcomm. Every
time it is pointed out that the “evidence” you offer of this is nothing of
the sort, you keep falling back to some kind of “trust me” argument.

If your faith in Microsoft is really that strong, then all I have to say
is, you show a troublesome lack of ability to learn from experience.

On 16 Jul 2024 19:38:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> I had a 68000 development board and it was a nice processor. Motorola
> would have had trouble producing the required 68008 parts. I liked the
> Z8000 because if working with the Z80 but the 68000 was faster. However
> Intel's 8088 was available and cheap.

The Motorola 68000 family was the darling of the Unix workstation market,
until RISC came along (circa 1989) and blew everything else away.

Intel’s segmented-memory processors were bad, but the Z8000 was worse.

On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 17:22:52 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Can an Arm ATX mobo be found?

Instead of ATX, how about something in the Raspberry Pi form factor. You
aren’t going to fit an x86 chip into that.

On 16 Jul 2024 19:56:14 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Maybe they will be more cautious this time about saying some things will
> work with emulation but not as well as on x64 and somethings will not
> work at all.

Sounds too complicated for your typical Windows user to understand. Easier
boiled down to one word: “avoid”.

On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 23:44:37 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> Intel’s segmented-memory processors were bad, but the Z8000 was worse.

What could be finer than dealing with five memory models, tiny, small,
compact, medium, and large?

https://thechipletter.substack.com/p/captain-zilog-crushed-the-story-of

I don't care. I still have my kool Captain Zilog t-shirt that Zilog handed
out at the seminars.

On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 23:46:33 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 16 Jul 2024 19:56:14 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Maybe they will be more cautious this time about saying some things
>> will work with emulation but not as well as on x64 and somethings will
>> not work at all.
>
> Sounds too complicated for your typical Windows user to understand.
> Easier boiled down to one word: “avoid”.

Yeah but the tech websites and magazines (do any still exist?) have to
have something to hype. They're luckier than the gun porn writers who have
been rehashing the .45 versus 9mm debate for 40 years.

On 17 Jul 2024 02:46:10 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 23:44:37 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Intel’s segmented-memory processors were bad, but the Z8000 was worse.
>
> What could be finer than dealing with five memory models, tiny, small,
> compact, medium, and large?
>
> https://thechipletter.substack.com/p/captain-zilog-crushed-the-story-of

To support this approach, the architecture would be based on
segmented addresses.

That seems pretty dumb. Motorola managed something similar (the 68008, as
used in the Sinclair QL) without segmentation.

On 17 Jul 2024 02:50:31 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> They're luckier than the gun porn writers who
> have been rehashing the .45 versus 9mm debate for 40 years.

So, are the gun nuts having second thoughts after the assassination
attempt on Trump?

“Will they love their President more than their guns?”

On 2024-07-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 17 Jul 2024 02:50:31 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> They're luckier than the gun porn writers who
>> have been rehashing the .45 versus 9mm debate for 40 years.
>
> So, are the gun nuts having second thoughts after the assassination
> attempt on Trump?

Why? Because the government proved to be completely incompetent in
protecting the former president? If he can't be protected, what's my
chances? I need a gun even more — and I don't even own one.

> “Will they love their President more than their guns?”

What a stupid thing to say. But, yeah, I think I need a gun more than ever
now that I see how crazy the Woke Left morons can be.

Try again at twisting the narrative. This attempt was pretty pathetic.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 02:21:35 -0000 (UTC), RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com>
wrote in <v7cijf$2q29h$1@dont-email.me>:

> On 2024-07-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On 17 Jul 2024 02:50:31 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> They're luckier than the gun porn writers who have been rehashing the
>>> .45 versus 9mm debate for 40 years.
>>
>> So, are the gun nuts having second thoughts after the assassination
>> attempt on Trump?
>
> Why? Because the government proved to be completely incompetent in
> protecting the former president? If he can't be protected, what's my
> chances? I need a gun even more — and I don't even own one.
>
>> “Will they love their President more than their guns?”
>
> What a stupid thing to say. But, yeah, I think I need a gun more than
> ever now that I see how crazy the Woke Left morons can be.
>
> Try again at twisting the narrative. This attempt was pretty pathetic.

I used to have a rural property. (Wish I still had it now, but
it was land-heavy, and I couldn't refinance it after the crash
of 2008.) Anyway, there's a saying: "When seconds count, the
sheriff is minutes away."

People who advocate gun control are more apt to live in urban
environments, where walking around with a long gun draws stares,
if not action, depending on the state.

They don't consider the case of rural denizens, who really do need
firearms for effective self-protection. Most are _not_ "gun nuts".

You sometimes hear gun control advocates talk about firearms being
"designed to _only_ kill!" -- but a firearm can stop a problem
in its tracks without firing a shot, just by being present.

Also, just racking a shotgun can send bad guys running. A warning
shot can do the same.

For examples, read the column "The Armed Citizen".

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.9.9 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"Life is like a Car-wash and I'm on a bicycle."

On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 00:59:24 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> That seems pretty dumb. Motorola managed something similar (the 68008,
> as used in the Sinclair QL) without segmentation.

Trailing the pack may have worked out well for Motorola. The 6502 ate the
6800's lunch on price and performance. GM's choice of the 6800 family for
automobiles saved it. The 6809 didn't do that well either. They didn't
have an attachment to the existing designs and targeted high end
applications with the 68000 so it was a clean approach.

Intel patched up the 8080 basically by formalizing the bank switching that
was already being used with the Z80/8080, while working on their high end
432 that never happened. Zilog tried to do the same with the Z80, even
more obviously with an external MMU.

Motorola's problem was the 68008 was sort of an afterthought and IBM
wanted cheap and now, picking the classic 2 out of three constraints.
Motorola also had a sort of a bad rep going back to GM and the 6800. When
GM said 'jump' Motorola said 'how high?' and if you weren't buying a
million parts you went on the back burner.

In the early '80s deliveries were often out a year or more and some
decisions were made based on what you could buy, sort of like the recent
GPU shortage, and the upcoming one TSNC is muttering about.

On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 01:26:27 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 17 Jul 2024 02:50:31 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> They're luckier than the gun porn writers who have been rehashing the
>> .45 versus 9mm debate for 40 years.
>
> So, are the gun nuts having second thoughts after the assassination
> attempt on Trump?
>
> “Will they love their President more than their guns?”

How did you come to that conclusion from the firearms press rehashing the
same old 'is 9mm better than .45?' question for decades.

On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 02:21:35 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> Try again at twisting the narrative. This attempt was pretty pathetic.

My bad. The comparison I tried to make was tech writers can enthuse over
brand new processors, GPUs, phones, AI and so forth while the writers for
Guns & Ammo are pretty much locked into the same old same old, trying to
hype the latest polymer, striker fired, sub compact 9mm.

Maybe I should have pondered whatever the hell has kept Good Housekeeping
afloat for over 100 years.

On 19 Jul 2024 04:33:08 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Motorola's problem was the 68008 was sort of an afterthought and IBM
> wanted cheap and now ...

And Sir Clive was able to use that chip in a machine that cost a tiny
fraction of anything IBM was selling.

On 19 Jul 2024 03:06:22 GMT, vallor wrote:

> People who advocate gun control are more apt to live in urban
> environments ...

Certainly not in war zones. Is the USA a war zone? Where is there another
place in the world where parents have to worry about getting bullet-proof
vests to try to ensure their children survive their school years? Where
the number-one cause of death of children is gunshot wounds?

On 2024-07-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 19 Jul 2024 04:33:08 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Motorola's problem was the 68008 was sort of an afterthought and IBM
>> wanted cheap and now ...
>
> And Sir Clive was able to use that chip in a machine that cost a tiny
> fraction of anything IBM was selling.

The Sinclair QL was my first "real" (useful) computer. I had owned a
Timex-Sinclair 1000 earlier.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 7/11/2024 10:07 PM, Joel wrote:
> WittySausage <witty@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2024-07-11 3:37 p.m., Joel wrote:
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> A lot of laptops are sold to gamers - this new technology has real
>>>>> advantages for laptops.
>>>>
>>>> It would if it worked. I notice that Fortnite, for example, will not run
>>>> on Windows-for-ARM. Gamers are not going to buy into it until their games
>>>> work. And the game developers won’t do that until they are assured of a
>>>> return on their sizeable investment. Which nobody can guarantee.
>>>
>>> I do realize that x86 has advantages, but they can all be emulated or
>>> something equivalent to that. They can remake how game code is
>>> interpreted. It's guaranteed to happen to produce superior devices.
>>> Everyone loves a brand new Alienware laptop. But it is sentenced to
>>> death on its inception, as an Intel or AMD-based device.
>>
>> Most gaming laptops stay with their original owner for two years. If, at
>> some point, the x86-64 becomes too much of a burden, the gamer doesn't
>> mind spending another two or three thousand to get a better machine.
>
>
> It could be unnecessary to replace hardware so frequently, with ARM.

It's not necessary to replace hardware frequently with Intel or AMD
running Windows.

That's a delusional lie dreamt up and propagated by Linux liars.

DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>On 7/11/2024 10:07 PM, Joel wrote:
>> WittySausage <witty@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>
>>> Most gaming laptops stay with their original owner for two years. If, at
>>> some point, the x86-64 becomes too much of a burden, the gamer doesn't
>>> mind spending another two or three thousand to get a better machine.
>>
>> It could be unnecessary to replace hardware so frequently, with ARM.
>
>It's not necessary to replace hardware frequently with Intel or AMD
>running Windows.
>
>That's a delusional lie dreamt up and propagated by Linux liars.

You believe that because you don't think about laptops being heat
generators - ARM laptops are fundamentally different like the MacBook
Pro and Air are. And Windows 11 laptops on ARM hardware are now
mainstream. I'm looking forward to a way to build with it.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 19:45:36 -0400, Joel wrote:

> And Windows 11 laptops on ARM hardware are now mainstream.

Far from it, judging from the market (non)response so far.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>> And Windows 11 laptops on ARM hardware are now mainstream.
>
>Far from it, judging from the market (non)response so far.

LOL, I could buy one from multiple companies with a Snapdragon CPU.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.