On Thu, 09 May 2024 11:36:06 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On 2024-05-08 6:06 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 12:04:28 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> At least Windows doesn't display non-working app menu items, as Linux
>>>> used to do a LOT. Click them and nothing happens. Resolving them
>>>> was FAR more troublesome than the Registry fix I showed.
>>>
>>> When was 'used to do'? 1998?
>>
>> Actually, DFS showed this to be the case recently, and many times over
>> the last few years. This is not an old problem; it's a problem Linux
>> distributions have yet to iron out. The lack of polish is very
>> noticeable.
>
> Name the offending apps, please.

GIMP, for one. The interface is very confusing to anyone who's used better
software. Handbrake would be another, though it isn't that difficult to
get used to, in my opinion. Calibre would be another, as it is generally
very confusing. I would add Pan to that list, but I only say so from the
perspective of a newbie since I grew up with such interfaces and kind of
like the way it works.

On Thu, 09 May 2024 11:47:23 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Thu, 09 May 2024 04:34:14 +0000, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 19:39:09 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here's what I posted to cola Apr 2019, when running Solus Linux with
>>>> the Budgie desktop.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budgie_(desktop_environment)
>>>
>>> Could you possibly find a more obscure/fucked up distro?
>>
>> For what it's worth, I appreciate that DFS is looking for minuscule
>> problems in Linux and pointing them out. You can't make anything better
>> if you're not going to be honest about its flaws. Unfortunately, even
>> after he points out the flaws and submits bug reports, the developers
>> don't seem to do anything to fix it.
>
> That's a project problem, not a platform problem.
>
> Microsoft itself seems to treat issue reports in a similar manner to bad
> projects. So often in a Microsoft help forum, you'll get non-answers or
> no answers, with user's getting plaintive about the lack of help.

You know, that's actually quite an accurate assessment. Whenever someone
submits a problem to a Microsoft help forum, some Indian guy whose name
can't be pronounced will just tell someone to run SFC. If that doesn't
work, you're on your own.
> Other companies act the same, all too often.
>
> I wouldn't ding small open-source team for being slow in responding to
> bugs, as they may have other more important things on their plate.

They're also not being paid to help anyone unlike the aforementioned. If
they're helping you out, it's because they want to do so out of the
goodness of their hearts. It's similar to how I show up early on some days
to give me kids additional remediation if they desire it. I could just as
easily grab myself a coffee and a few rays outside.
> I will note one responsive project: Meson, on GitHub. Meson was using a
> file called "meson_options.txt" to hold default values for project
> options. I wrote up an issue about it (as had others earlier,
> apparently), and I noted that the "txt" extension is too generic, and
> that I edited my /etc/DIR_COLORS file so that I could grok a directory
> listing faster. And in version 1.1 IIRC, voila, there was meson.options
> to supplement meson.build.

I am not aware of it, but I am also not a developer. I kind of wish I were
and should have been considering my cousin was a programmer when we were
kids, and I was exposed to programming tools all my life. I just never had
a passion for creating something which couldn't readily be seen or read by
the average person. Kudos to anyone who can build programs from scratch
though.

On 5/9/2024 12:34 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On Wed, 8 May 2024 19:39:09 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> Here's what I posted to cola Apr 2019, when running Solus Linux with the
>> Budgie desktop.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budgie_(desktop_environment)
>
> Could you possibly find a more obscure/fucked up distro?

Hey, it's in the Top 1000 on distrowatch.com

I chose it for the same reason most victims choose their Linux distro:
they like the wallpaper.

It was a real dud.

Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote at 17:13 this Wednesday (GMT):
> On 2024-05-08 12:04 p.m., DFS wrote:
>> On 5/8/2024 11:42 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-08 10:14 a.m., DFS wrote:
>>>> On 5/3/2024 5:05 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The mere fact that it is no longer possible to install Windows
>>>>> without being forced to enter a Microsoft account speaks volumes
>>>>> about where the tech world is going.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also thought that was true (as of Win11), but I found out it's not.
>>>>
>>>> Last night I screwed up my Win11 Pro install, bad, by stopping the
>>>> wrong services.  Had no system restore points, so ended up reinstalling.
>>>>
>>>> During the reinstall, instead of choosing 'This PC will be used at
>>>> home' or whatever it says, choose the other option 'To be used at work'.
>>>>
>>>> Then you don't have to enter a MS email - you can use whatever
>>>> email/domain you want to continue the install.
>>>>
>>>> Problem solved!
>>>>
>>>> But it caused a new problem:  under Windows Security | Virus & threat
>>>> protection it said 'Action needed'.  When I clicked, it said to
>>>> contact the IT Adminstrator for your company.
>>>>
>>>> Googled and found this solution:
>>>>
>>>> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/1367032/in-my-windows-11-virus-and-threat-protection-missi
>>>>
>>>> Add a simple Registry key and it's fixed.
>>>>
>>>> https://imgur.com/a/G7HZ7Lm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is less trouble than using an MS email to install, then going
>>>> back and changing your user profile (because the user profile is
>>>> named with the first 5 letters of the MS email acct).
>>>
>>> So, we're still jumping through hoops to get the system to work the
>>> way we want it to. It's quite annoying.
>>
>> It is.  It happened because I chose to install the system as part of a
>> corporate network, and "the corp" controls security settings.  Install
>> it for home use and that doesn't happen (but then you have to phone home
>> with an MS email).
>>
>>
>> At least Windows doesn't display non-working app menu items, as Linux
>> used to do a LOT.  Click them and nothing happens.  Resolving them was
>> FAR more troublesome than the Registry fix I showed.
>
> I'll be the first to admit that as much as I like using Linux and the
> ideas behind it, I had to stop using it as a result of the lack of
> polish. Ubuntu is better because they at least make an attempt to
> provide is as a serious alternative for corporate environments. It,
> Fedora and openSUSE are the only ones with polish, but the latter two
> are slaves to the homosexual agenda.

Fair.. there is a lot of style inconsistency. It doesn't bother me as
much, but its definitely there.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 09 May 2024 15:58:59 GMT, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> GIMP, for one. The interface is very confusing to anyone who's used
> better software.

If I ever used PhotoShop it was years ago so I can't compare GIMP
directly. I've only used GIMP for light editing of png icons but that was
enough to make me loathe it. If I had to do image editing more than very
rarely I'd be looking for a more usable tool.

On 5/8/2024 11:42 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
> On 2024-05-08 10:14 a.m., DFS wrote:
>> On 5/3/2024 5:05 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>
>>> The mere fact that it is no longer possible to install Windows
>>> without being forced to enter a Microsoft account speaks volumes
>>> about where the tech world is going.
>>
>>
>> I also thought that was true (as of Win11), but I found out it's not.
>>
>> Last night I screwed up my Win11 Pro install, bad, by stopping the
>> wrong services.  Had no system restore points, so ended up reinstalling.
>>
>> During the reinstall, instead of choosing 'This PC will be used at
>> home' or whatever it says, choose the other option 'To be used at work'.
>>
>> Then you don't have to enter a MS email - you can use whatever
>> email/domain you want to continue the install.
>>
>> Problem solved!
>>
>> But it caused a new problem:  under Windows Security | Virus & threat
>> protection it said 'Action needed'.  When I clicked, it said to
>> contact the IT Adminstrator for your company.
>>
>> Googled and found this solution:
>>
>> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/1367032/in-my-windows-11-virus-and-threat-protection-missi
>>
>> Add a simple Registry key and it's fixed.
>>
>> https://imgur.com/a/G7HZ7Lm
>>
>>
>> This is less trouble than using an MS email to install, then going
>> back and changing your user profile (because the user profile is named
>> with the first 5 letters of the MS email acct).
>
> So, we're still jumping through hoops to get the system to work the way
> we want it to. It's quite annoying.

Meant to say: installing with the 'work' option not only removes the MS
email login requirement, it also removes the ads in Casual Games &
Solitaire (Klondike at least).

On Fri, 10 May 2024 08:42:56 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On 09 May 2024 15:58:59 GMT, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>
>>> GIMP, for one. The interface is very confusing to anyone who's used
>>> better software.
>>
>> If I ever used PhotoShop it was years ago so I can't compare GIMP
>> directly. I've only used GIMP for light editing of png icons but that
>> was enough to make me loathe it. If I had to do image editing more than
>> very rarely I'd be looking for a more usable tool.
>
> I must have more patience than you.

Without a doubt when it comes to images. In my first go around with GUIs
with Borland's OWL iirc there was an editor to create icons for the
buttons. I'll be damned if I can get a 16x16 or 32x32 icon to look like
anything recognizable.

I don't even remember what tool I was using but at one point I thought I
was developing carpal tunnel screwing around with a mouse selecting pixels
to fill with a different color.

Artwork ain't my thing and when you hate the whole task it's easy to hate
the associated tools. Still, all those floating windows in GIMP seem like
a very poor idea.

Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Fri, 10 May 2024 08:42:30 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Actually, GIMP is pretty powerful and it's learning curve has gotten
>> longer over the years.
>
> Even my students who have no idea what a decent photo manipulaton program
> looks like find that GIMP is shockingly ugly and confusing.

With great power comes great responsibility. Responsibility to learn the
intricacies!

How old are these kids?

--
Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Fri, 10 May 2024 08:42:56 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> On 09 May 2024 15:58:59 GMT, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>
>>>> GIMP, for one. The interface is very confusing to anyone who's used
>>>> better software.
>>>
>>> If I ever used PhotoShop it was years ago so I can't compare GIMP
>>> directly. I've only used GIMP for light editing of png icons but that
>>> was enough to make me loathe it. If I had to do image editing more than
>>> very rarely I'd be looking for a more usable tool.
>>
>> I must have more patience than you.
>
> Without a doubt when it comes to images. In my first go around with GUIs
> with Borland's OWL iirc there was an editor to create icons for the
> buttons. I'll be damned if I can get a 16x16 or 32x32 icon to look like
> anything recognizable.
>
> I don't even remember what tool I was using but at one point I thought I
> was developing carpal tunnel screwing around with a mouse selecting pixels
> to fill with a different color.
>
> Artwork ain't my thing and when you hate the whole task it's easy to hate
> the associated tools. Still, all those floating windows in GIMP seem like
> a very poor idea.

They don't have to be floating.

--
Your society will be sought by people of taste and refinement.

On Fri, 10 May 2024 16:28:40 +0000, RonB wrote:

> On 2024-05-09, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>> On Thu, 09 May 2024 04:34:14 +0000, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 19:39:09 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here's what I posted to cola Apr 2019, when running Solus Linux with
>>>> the Budgie desktop.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budgie_(desktop_environment)
>>>
>>> Could you possibly find a more obscure/fucked up distro?
>>
>> For what it's worth, I appreciate that DFS is looking for minuscule
>> problems in Linux and pointing them out. You can't make anything better
>> if you're not going to be honest about its flaws. Unfortunately, even
>> after he points out the flaws and submits bug reports, the developers
>> don't seem to do anything to fix it.
>
> I'm glad he is too. It gives him a way to keep busy so that he doesn't
> go completely bat shit crazy with his anti-Linux obsession.
>
> I guess no one on the Windows' newsgroups (are there any?) want to play
> with him.

alt.comp.os.windows-11 (and windows-10) are the ones that come to mind to
me. They're not as emotional there, so they don't give trolls much to work
with. They're rather professional, though some of the people there act
like they know everything about everything, including what's in the COVID
"vaccines."
> As for the "flaws" he finds in Linux a lot of them are simply, "I don't
> CLI applications, no one should use them" and "the Linux GUIs ain't
> snazzy enough to suit me" and "developers can't make any money in
> Linux." And "it doesn't run Photoshop or MicroCrap Office."
>
> In other words his Linux flaws come down to "I want Linux to run like
> WinCrap."
>
> And many of these "flaws" are from 15 years ago.
>
> Bloatware Windows could use some help with upgrading, it's a total mess.
> Maybe he should pay some attention to that. Give the M$ developers a
> chance to see his "expert" flaw finding abilities.

The updating system of Windows desperately needs to be overhauled, and I
don't believe that anyone can say otherwise. It's slow and much too prone
to breaking the system.

On Fri, 10 May 2024 16:33:51 +0000, RonB wrote:

> On 2024-05-09, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> On 2024-05-08 6:06 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 12:04:28 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> At least Windows doesn't display non-working app menu items, as
>>>>> Linux used to do a LOT. Click them and nothing happens. Resolving
>>>>> them was FAR more troublesome than the Registry fix I showed.
>>>>
>>>> When was 'used to do'? 1998?
>>>
>>> Actually, DFS showed this to be the case recently, and many times over
>>> the last few years. This is not an old problem; it's a problem Linux
>>> distributions have yet to iron out. The lack of polish is very
>>> noticeable.
>>
>> Name the offending apps, please.
>
> In other words, they don't look like Windows' apps.
>
> That's all surface. More of DFS' GUI obsession.

It's not a matter of looking like Windows apps; it's that they often look
like something made by a blind 12-year-old. They ARE often ugly, and there
is really no denying that. However, they _do_ the job, and that's what
they should be evaluated on.

On 2024-05-10, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 May 2024 16:33:51 +0000, RonB wrote:
>
>> On 2024-05-09, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-05-08 6:06 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 12:04:28 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> At least Windows doesn't display non-working app menu items, as
>>>>>> Linux used to do a LOT. Click them and nothing happens. Resolving
>>>>>> them was FAR more troublesome than the Registry fix I showed.
>>>>>
>>>>> When was 'used to do'? 1998?
>>>>
>>>> Actually, DFS showed this to be the case recently, and many times over
>>>> the last few years. This is not an old problem; it's a problem Linux
>>>> distributions have yet to iron out. The lack of polish is very
>>>> noticeable.
>>>
>>> Name the offending apps, please.
>>
>> In other words, they don't look like Windows' apps.
>>
>> That's all surface. More of DFS' GUI obsession.
>
> It's not a matter of looking like Windows apps; it's that they often look
> like something made by a blind 12-year-old. They ARE often ugly, and there
> is really no denying that. However, they _do_ the job, and that's what
> they should be evaluated on.

I'm denying that they're ugly. What applications are you talking about?
Maybe it's only the ones I don't use.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On Sat, 11 May 2024 07:25:15 +0000, RonB wrote:

> On 2024-05-10, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 May 2024 16:33:51 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-05-09, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>>>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-05-08 6:06 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 12:04:28 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least Windows doesn't display non-working app menu items, as
>>>>>>> Linux used to do a LOT. Click them and nothing happens.
>>>>>>> Resolving them was FAR more troublesome than the Registry fix I
>>>>>>> showed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When was 'used to do'? 1998?
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, DFS showed this to be the case recently, and many times
>>>>> over the last few years. This is not an old problem; it's a problem
>>>>> Linux distributions have yet to iron out. The lack of polish is very
>>>>> noticeable.
>>>>
>>>> Name the offending apps, please.
>>>
>>> In other words, they don't look like Windows' apps.
>>>
>>> That's all surface. More of DFS' GUI obsession.
>>
>> It's not a matter of looking like Windows apps; it's that they often
>> look like something made by a blind 12-year-old. They ARE often ugly,
>> and there is really no denying that. However, they _do_ the job, and
>> that's what they should be evaluated on.
>
> I'm denying that they're ugly. What applications are you talking about?
> Maybe it's only the ones I don't use.

I already mentioned a few to Chris Ahlstrom like Calibre, GIMP and
Handbrake. Since I'm not using the system at this moment, I can't come up
with more yet.

Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sat, 11 May 2024 07:25:15 +0000, RonB wrote:
>
>> On 2024-05-10, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 May 2024 16:33:51 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-05-09, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>>>>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2024-05-08 6:06 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 12:04:28 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At least Windows doesn't display non-working app menu items, as
>>>>>>>> Linux used to do a LOT. Click them and nothing happens.
>>>>>>>> Resolving them was FAR more troublesome than the Registry fix I
>>>>>>>> showed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When was 'used to do'? 1998?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, DFS showed this to be the case recently, and many times
>>>>>> over the last few years. This is not an old problem; it's a problem
>>>>>> Linux distributions have yet to iron out. The lack of polish is very
>>>>>> noticeable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Name the offending apps, please.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, they don't look like Windows' apps.
>>>>
>>>> That's all surface. More of DFS' GUI obsession.
>>>
>>> It's not a matter of looking like Windows apps; it's that they often
>>> look like something made by a blind 12-year-old. They ARE often ugly,
>>> and there is really no denying that. However, they _do_ the job, and
>>> that's what they should be evaluated on.
>>
>> I'm denying that they're ugly. What applications are you talking about?
>> Maybe it's only the ones I don't use.
>
> I already mentioned a few to Chris Ahlstrom like Calibre, GIMP and
> Handbrake. Since I'm not using the system at this moment, I can't come up
> with more yet.

I still disagree about GIMP, though. Not ugly, just complex.

--
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would
be a merrier world.
-- J.R.R. Tolkien

On Sat, 11 May 2024 13:56:57 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>
wrote in <v1obh9$25j98$2@dont-email.me>:

> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Sat, 11 May 2024 07:25:15 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-05-10, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 May 2024 16:33:51 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-05-09, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>>>>>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects
>>>>>> royalties:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2024-05-08 6:06 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 12:04:28 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At least Windows doesn't display non-working app menu items, as
>>>>>>>>> Linux used to do a LOT. Click them and nothing happens.
>>>>>>>>> Resolving them was FAR more troublesome than the Registry fix I
>>>>>>>>> showed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When was 'used to do'? 1998?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, DFS showed this to be the case recently, and many times
>>>>>>> over the last few years. This is not an old problem; it's a
>>>>>>> problem Linux distributions have yet to iron out. The lack of
>>>>>>> polish is very noticeable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Name the offending apps, please.
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, they don't look like Windows' apps.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's all surface. More of DFS' GUI obsession.
>>>>
>>>> It's not a matter of looking like Windows apps; it's that they often
>>>> look like something made by a blind 12-year-old. They ARE often ugly,
>>>> and there is really no denying that. However, they _do_ the job, and
>>>> that's what they should be evaluated on.
>>>
>>> I'm denying that they're ugly. What applications are you talking
>>> about?
>>> Maybe it's only the ones I don't use.
>>
>> I already mentioned a few to Chris Ahlstrom like Calibre, GIMP and
>> Handbrake. Since I'm not using the system at this moment, I can't come
>> up with more yet.
>
> I still disagree about GIMP, though. Not ugly, just complex.

I agree -- perhaps they remember an older version of GIMP?

I mostly use it to crop small parts of large images. You can
select a section, copy, then "paste as new image". Handy.

--
-v

DistroMan:
> I mostly use GIMP to crop small parts of large images.
> You can select a section, copy, then "paste as new image". Handy.

"Paste as new image", I'll remember that.

P.S. P.S. I'm dipping pieces of ThickSliced brioche bread in Alfredo sauce.
I like how it comes in a plastic tub, instead of glass.
Buitoni(tm) Alfredo Sauce, deli fresh, 15 oz, 3.28 $ ( half off ! ).

On 2024-05-11, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 May 2024 07:25:15 +0000, RonB wrote:
>
>> On 2024-05-10, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 May 2024 16:33:51 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-05-09, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>>>>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2024-05-08 6:06 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 12:04:28 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At least Windows doesn't display non-working app menu items, as
>>>>>>>> Linux used to do a LOT. Click them and nothing happens.
>>>>>>>> Resolving them was FAR more troublesome than the Registry fix I
>>>>>>>> showed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When was 'used to do'? 1998?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, DFS showed this to be the case recently, and many times
>>>>>> over the last few years. This is not an old problem; it's a problem
>>>>>> Linux distributions have yet to iron out. The lack of polish is very
>>>>>> noticeable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Name the offending apps, please.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, they don't look like Windows' apps.
>>>>
>>>> That's all surface. More of DFS' GUI obsession.
>>>
>>> It's not a matter of looking like Windows apps; it's that they often
>>> look like something made by a blind 12-year-old. They ARE often ugly,
>>> and there is really no denying that. However, they _do_ the job, and
>>> that's what they should be evaluated on.
>>
>> I'm denying that they're ugly. What applications are you talking about?
>> Maybe it's only the ones I don't use.
>
> I already mentioned a few to Chris Ahlstrom like Calibre, GIMP and
> Handbrake. Since I'm not using the system at this moment, I can't come up
> with more yet.

Well that's... three. And I already spoke about Calibre (what's wrong with
its GUI?) and GIMP — which, like I said, has a LOT of features. I'm guessing
if I used it I would be able to learn it. But the same goes for PhotoShop,
which just looks like a confusing mess to me.

Far cry from ("the Linux GUI is ugly") that DuFuS claims. And, by the way,
Calibre is the same in Windows and MacOS (and more people use it in Windows
than they do in Linux).

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-05-11, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Sat, 11 May 2024 07:25:15 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-05-10, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 May 2024 16:33:51 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-05-09, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>>>>>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2024-05-08 6:06 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 12:04:28 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At least Windows doesn't display non-working app menu items, as
>>>>>>>>> Linux used to do a LOT. Click them and nothing happens.
>>>>>>>>> Resolving them was FAR more troublesome than the Registry fix I
>>>>>>>>> showed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When was 'used to do'? 1998?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, DFS showed this to be the case recently, and many times
>>>>>>> over the last few years. This is not an old problem; it's a problem
>>>>>>> Linux distributions have yet to iron out. The lack of polish is very
>>>>>>> noticeable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Name the offending apps, please.
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, they don't look like Windows' apps.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's all surface. More of DFS' GUI obsession.
>>>>
>>>> It's not a matter of looking like Windows apps; it's that they often
>>>> look like something made by a blind 12-year-old. They ARE often ugly,
>>>> and there is really no denying that. However, they _do_ the job, and
>>>> that's what they should be evaluated on.
>>>
>>> I'm denying that they're ugly. What applications are you talking about?
>>> Maybe it's only the ones I don't use.
>>
>> I already mentioned a few to Chris Ahlstrom like Calibre, GIMP and
>> Handbrake. Since I'm not using the system at this moment, I can't come up
>> with more yet.
>
> I still disagree about GIMP, though. Not ugly, just complex.

Yep.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On Sun, 12 May 2024 08:14:48 +0000, RonB wrote:

> On 2024-05-11, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 May 2024 07:25:15 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-05-10, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 May 2024 16:33:51 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-05-09, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>>>>>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects
>>>>>> royalties:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2024-05-08 6:06 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 12:04:28 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At least Windows doesn't display non-working app menu items, as
>>>>>>>>> Linux used to do a LOT. Click them and nothing happens.
>>>>>>>>> Resolving them was FAR more troublesome than the Registry fix I
>>>>>>>>> showed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When was 'used to do'? 1998?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, DFS showed this to be the case recently, and many times
>>>>>>> over the last few years. This is not an old problem; it's a
>>>>>>> problem Linux distributions have yet to iron out. The lack of
>>>>>>> polish is very noticeable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Name the offending apps, please.
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, they don't look like Windows' apps.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's all surface. More of DFS' GUI obsession.
>>>>
>>>> It's not a matter of looking like Windows apps; it's that they often
>>>> look like something made by a blind 12-year-old. They ARE often ugly,
>>>> and there is really no denying that. However, they _do_ the job, and
>>>> that's what they should be evaluated on.
>>>
>>> I'm denying that they're ugly. What applications are you talking
>>> about?
>>> Maybe it's only the ones I don't use.
>>
>> I already mentioned a few to Chris Ahlstrom like Calibre, GIMP and
>> Handbrake. Since I'm not using the system at this moment, I can't come
>> up with more yet.
>
> Well that's... three. And I already spoke about Calibre (what's wrong
> with its GUI?) and GIMP — which, like I said, has a LOT of features. I'm
> guessing if I used it I would be able to learn it. But the same goes for
> PhotoShop, which just looks like a confusing mess to me.
>
> Far cry from ("the Linux GUI is ugly") that DuFuS claims. And, by the
> way, Calibre is the same in Windows and MacOS (and more people use it in
> Windows than they do in Linux).

The argument is being applied to open-source software, regardless of
whether it is available in Windows or not. Most open-source software is
available in Windows, I think Evolution is the one exception. Calibre
looks alright since it works well, but the point is still that the
interface is ugly in the eyes of a typical Windows or MacOS user who
considers looks first, and functionality last.

I'll give you a quick example. Back around 2012-2013, I wanted my students
to take an interest in Linux since I was sold on the idea of open-source.
I would freely use the operating system in class and project it on the
screen, but nobody wondered why it looked different than Windows or
anything else they were accustomed to. Then, I turned on the wobbly
windows feature of KDE. Suddenly, everyone was interested because it was
"cool." That's the typical user: the one who doesn't care that the system
is more lightweight or stable, but wants something cool to happen when
they move a window.

On 2024-05-12, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 May 2024 08:14:48 +0000, RonB wrote:
>
>> On 2024-05-11, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 May 2024 07:25:15 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-05-10, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 10 May 2024 16:33:51 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2024-05-09, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>>>>>>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects
>>>>>>> royalties:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-08 6:06 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 12:04:28 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At least Windows doesn't display non-working app menu items, as
>>>>>>>>>> Linux used to do a LOT. Click them and nothing happens.
>>>>>>>>>> Resolving them was FAR more troublesome than the Registry fix I
>>>>>>>>>> showed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When was 'used to do'? 1998?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, DFS showed this to be the case recently, and many times
>>>>>>>> over the last few years. This is not an old problem; it's a
>>>>>>>> problem Linux distributions have yet to iron out. The lack of
>>>>>>>> polish is very noticeable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Name the offending apps, please.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, they don't look like Windows' apps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's all surface. More of DFS' GUI obsession.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not a matter of looking like Windows apps; it's that they often
>>>>> look like something made by a blind 12-year-old. They ARE often ugly,
>>>>> and there is really no denying that. However, they _do_ the job, and
>>>>> that's what they should be evaluated on.
>>>>
>>>> I'm denying that they're ugly. What applications are you talking
>>>> about?
>>>> Maybe it's only the ones I don't use.
>>>
>>> I already mentioned a few to Chris Ahlstrom like Calibre, GIMP and
>>> Handbrake. Since I'm not using the system at this moment, I can't come
>>> up with more yet.
>>
>> Well that's... three. And I already spoke about Calibre (what's wrong
>> with its GUI?) and GIMP — which, like I said, has a LOT of features. I'm
>> guessing if I used it I would be able to learn it. But the same goes for
>> PhotoShop, which just looks like a confusing mess to me.
>>
>> Far cry from ("the Linux GUI is ugly") that DuFuS claims. And, by the
>> way, Calibre is the same in Windows and MacOS (and more people use it in
>> Windows than they do in Linux).
>
> The argument is being applied to open-source software, regardless of
> whether it is available in Windows or not. Most open-source software is
> available in Windows, I think Evolution is the one exception. Calibre
> looks alright since it works well, but the point is still that the
> interface is ugly in the eyes of a typical Windows or MacOS user who
> considers looks first, and functionality last.
>
> I'll give you a quick example. Back around 2012-2013, I wanted my students
> to take an interest in Linux since I was sold on the idea of open-source.
> I would freely use the operating system in class and project it on the
> screen, but nobody wondered why it looked different than Windows or
> anything else they were accustomed to. Then, I turned on the wobbly
> windows feature of KDE. Suddenly, everyone was interested because it was
> "cool." That's the typical user: the one who doesn't care that the system
> is more lightweight or stable, but wants something cool to happen when
> they move a window.

I'm kind of the opposite. I'm the kind of person who would NEVER move the
furniture if I wasn't married. The Desktop is there to get you to the
application and I don't care if there are wobbly windows at all. I guess it
goes further than that. I really don't like wobbly windows. I think that's
partly why I'm not a huge fan of KDE. For years the mouse pointer bounced up
and down when opening an application. Just seemed "gimmicky" to me. (Does it
still do that?)

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On Sun, 12 May 2024 18:15:55 +0000, RonB wrote:

> On 2024-05-12, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 May 2024 08:14:48 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-05-11, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 11 May 2024 07:25:15 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-05-10, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 10 May 2024 16:33:51 +0000, RonB wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2024-05-09, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects
>>>>>>>> royalties:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-08 6:06 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 May 2024 12:04:28 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At least Windows doesn't display non-working app menu items,
>>>>>>>>>>> as Linux used to do a LOT. Click them and nothing happens.
>>>>>>>>>>> Resolving them was FAR more troublesome than the Registry fix
>>>>>>>>>>> I showed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When was 'used to do'? 1998?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually, DFS showed this to be the case recently, and many
>>>>>>>>> times over the last few years. This is not an old problem; it's
>>>>>>>>> a problem Linux distributions have yet to iron out. The lack of
>>>>>>>>> polish is very noticeable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Name the offending apps, please.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In other words, they don't look like Windows' apps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's all surface. More of DFS' GUI obsession.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not a matter of looking like Windows apps; it's that they
>>>>>> often look like something made by a blind 12-year-old. They ARE
>>>>>> often ugly,
>>>>>> and there is really no denying that. However, they _do_ the job,
>>>>>> and that's what they should be evaluated on.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm denying that they're ugly. What applications are you talking
>>>>> about?
>>>>> Maybe it's only the ones I don't use.
>>>>
>>>> I already mentioned a few to Chris Ahlstrom like Calibre, GIMP and
>>>> Handbrake. Since I'm not using the system at this moment, I can't
>>>> come up with more yet.
>>>
>>> Well that's... three. And I already spoke about Calibre (what's wrong
>>> with its GUI?) and GIMP — which, like I said, has a LOT of features.
>>> I'm guessing if I used it I would be able to learn it. But the same
>>> goes for PhotoShop, which just looks like a confusing mess to me.
>>>
>>> Far cry from ("the Linux GUI is ugly") that DuFuS claims. And, by the
>>> way, Calibre is the same in Windows and MacOS (and more people use it
>>> in Windows than they do in Linux).
>>
>> The argument is being applied to open-source software, regardless of
>> whether it is available in Windows or not. Most open-source software is
>> available in Windows, I think Evolution is the one exception. Calibre
>> looks alright since it works well, but the point is still that the
>> interface is ugly in the eyes of a typical Windows or MacOS user who
>> considers looks first, and functionality last.
>>
>> I'll give you a quick example. Back around 2012-2013, I wanted my
>> students to take an interest in Linux since I was sold on the idea of
>> open-source. I would freely use the operating system in class and
>> project it on the screen, but nobody wondered why it looked different
>> than Windows or anything else they were accustomed to. Then, I turned
>> on the wobbly windows feature of KDE. Suddenly, everyone was interested
>> because it was "cool." That's the typical user: the one who doesn't
>> care that the system is more lightweight or stable, but wants something
>> cool to happen when they move a window.
>
> I'm kind of the opposite. I'm the kind of person who would NEVER move
> the furniture if I wasn't married. The Desktop is there to get you to
> the application and I don't care if there are wobbly windows at all. I
> guess it goes further than that. I really don't like wobbly windows. I
> think that's partly why I'm not a huge fan of KDE. For years the mouse
> pointer bounced up and down when opening an application. Just seemed
> "gimmicky" to me. (Does it still do that?)

I have no idea. I tried liking KDE but never could. Even back in the late
90s and early 2000s when it looked better than Gnome, I could never really
get into it.

On Sun, 12 May 2024 18:15:55 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> I'm kind of the opposite. I'm the kind of person who would NEVER move
> the furniture if I wasn't married. The Desktop is there to get you to
> the application and I don't care if there are wobbly windows at all. I
> guess it goes further than that. I really don't like wobbly windows. I
> think that's partly why I'm not a huge fan of KDE. For years the mouse
> pointer bounced up and down when opening an application. Just seemed
> "gimmicky" to me. (Does it still do that?)

Wobbly windows and that rotating cube they're so proud of never did
anything for me. I never noticed the mouse pointer until you mentioned it.
I had to open Kamoso to even see it. Kamoso apparently is some sort of
camera app and is a little sluggish opening, perhaps while it looks for
the nonexistent camera. Even LibreOffice opens too fast to show a bouncing
mouse pointer.

I presume there is a lot of crap I could turn on in Plasma 6 but I do very
little configuration of anything.

On 12 May 2024 22:49:56 GMT, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> I have no idea. I tried liking KDE but never could. Even back in the
> late 90s and early 2000s when it looked better than Gnome, I could never
> really get into it.

I've got the Fedora KDE spin on one machine. I prefer it to the Ubuntu on
my main machine. Some of that preference goes back to the dawn of time. I
truly disliked GTK and preferred Qt although the trolls managed to really
screw up the licensing.

My problem with GTK started with its verbosity. I don't mind snake case
but stuff like

gtk_create_a_new_push_button_with_rounded_corners()

gets old. (not a real function afaik) PySide6 can be set up to use snake
case to be more 'Pythonic' but at this point I hit too many places where
you need to use Qt camel case to bother with it.

On Mon, 13 May 2024 02:52:23 +0000, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 12 May 2024 18:15:55 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> I'm kind of the opposite. I'm the kind of person who would NEVER move
>> the furniture if I wasn't married. The Desktop is there to get you to
>> the application and I don't care if there are wobbly windows at all. I
>> guess it goes further than that. I really don't like wobbly windows. I
>> think that's partly why I'm not a huge fan of KDE. For years the mouse
>> pointer bounced up and down when opening an application. Just seemed
>> "gimmicky" to me. (Does it still do that?)
>
> Wobbly windows and that rotating cube they're so proud of never did
> anything for me. I never noticed the mouse pointer until you mentioned
> it.
> I had to open Kamoso to even see it. Kamoso apparently is some sort of
> camera app and is a little sluggish opening, perhaps while it looks for
> the nonexistent camera. Even LibreOffice opens too fast to show a
> bouncing mouse pointer.
>
> I presume there is a lot of crap I could turn on in Plasma 6 but I do
> very little configuration of anything.

Back in 2012, the processors weren't as fast, I guess. I should mention I
was using a Core i3 330M at the time.

On 5/12/2024 10:52 PM, rbowman wrote:

> Wobbly windows

Stolen from Microsoft
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-7wFNwQm_4

> and that rotating cube they're so proud of never did anything for me.

Stolen from TV graphics and the Video Toaster