% <pursent100@gmail.com> wrote:
>Joel wrote:
>> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>>> On 7/14/2024 2:02 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>
>>>> And the only way to recover? Wipe and reinstall your Windows system.
>>>
>>> BWA!
>>>
>>> Are you drinking some fancy, high-alcohol NZ beer?
>>>
>>> Linux makes you crazy.
>>
>> I think Lawrence is (trying to?) describ(e/ing) something in beyond-PC
>> land. There's a clear reason why desktop Linux is the best and it's
>> because it can be the best on any device. Windows has a limited life
>> span and limited advantage during it. I will admit, seeing Win10 and
>> 11 when the computer was new, was impressive, but you get over it, you
>> realize how much better Linux would be.
>>
>it doesn't matter what you use to post with

Using Windows is ultimately about games and business software, there
are people who just want to use M$ but ultimately this whole thing
includes so much piracy that it's just a whole cesspool of the
busywork of the world, where Linux is a collective of fine software
that replaces the need for M$.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Joel wrote:
> % <pursent100@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Joel wrote:
>>> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>>>> On 7/14/2024 2:02 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> And the only way to recover? Wipe and reinstall your Windows system.
>>>>
>>>> BWA!
>>>>
>>>> Are you drinking some fancy, high-alcohol NZ beer?
>>>>
>>>> Linux makes you crazy.
>>>
>>> I think Lawrence is (trying to?) describ(e/ing) something in beyond-PC
>>> land. There's a clear reason why desktop Linux is the best and it's
>>> because it can be the best on any device. Windows has a limited life
>>> span and limited advantage during it. I will admit, seeing Win10 and
>>> 11 when the computer was new, was impressive, but you get over it, you
>>> realize how much better Linux would be.
>>>
>> it doesn't matter what you use to post with
>
>
> Using Windows is ultimately about games and business software, there
> are people who just want to use M$ but ultimately this whole thing
> includes so much piracy that it's just a whole cesspool of the
> busywork of the world, where Linux is a collective of fine software
> that replaces the need for M$.
>
so buy a computer that comes with linux

% <pursent100@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> it doesn't matter what you use to post with
>>
>> Using Windows is ultimately about games and business software, there
>> are people who just want to use M$ but ultimately this whole thing
>> includes so much piracy that it's just a whole cesspool of the
>> busywork of the world, where Linux is a collective of fine software
>> that replaces the need for M$.
>>
>so buy a computer that comes with linux

You can, but for me using Winblows or Linux is the same difference,
installing either from media. I have a desktop made from parts. I
had Win11 Pro but it's too bloated.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Joel wrote:
> % <pursent100@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> it doesn't matter what you use to post with
>>>
>>> Using Windows is ultimately about games and business software, there
>>> are people who just want to use M$ but ultimately this whole thing
>>> includes so much piracy that it's just a whole cesspool of the
>>> busywork of the world, where Linux is a collective of fine software
>>> that replaces the need for M$.
>>>
>> so buy a computer that comes with linux
>
>
> You can, but for me using Winblows or Linux is the same difference,
> installing either from media. I have a desktop made from parts. I
> had Win11 Pro but it's too bloated.
>
i've already said all this stuff ,
it started with my outlook express was altered ,
it wasn't but it lead to lots of posts

% <pursent100@gmail.com> wrote:

>User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/91.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.18.2
>
>>> buy a computer that comes with linux
>>
>> You can, but for me using Winblows or Linux is the same difference,
>> installing either from media. I have a desktop made from parts. I
>> had Win11 Pro but it's too bloated.
>>
>i've already said all this stuff ,
>it started with my outlook express was altered ,
>it wasn't but it lead to lots of posts

Why don't you fly with us? Microsoft has support for Linux, even, I
have Edge and Skype running, my Hotmail email address account open in
it, just as I have Gmail in Chrome. I can still use Firefox when I
wish.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 7/14/24 09:32, Lester Thorpe wrote:
> On 14 Jul 2024 12:37:52 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>> Are you that late you don't use UTF-8? Any European character should be
>> correctly displayed on any up-to-date program using UTF-8.
>
> 𝙲𝚊𝚗 𝚢𝚘𝚞 𝚛𝚎𝚊𝚍 𝚝𝚑𝚒𝚜? 𝙸𝚝'𝚜 𝚙𝚞𝚛𝚎 𝚊𝚗𝚍 𝚞𝚗𝚊𝚍𝚞𝚕𝚝𝚎𝚛𝚊𝚝𝚎𝚍 𝚄𝚗𝚒𝚌𝚘𝚍𝚎.

I have to open Thunderbird, to read that. Agent8 under Wine doesn't
support it.

--
Joel W. Crump

Joel wrote:
> % <pursent100@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/91.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.18.2
>>
>>>> buy a computer that comes with linux
>>>
>>> You can, but for me using Winblows or Linux is the same difference,
>>> installing either from media. I have a desktop made from parts. I
>>> had Win11 Pro but it's too bloated.
>>>
>> i've already said all this stuff ,
>> it started with my outlook express was altered ,
>> it wasn't but it lead to lots of posts
>
>
> Why don't you fly with us? Microsoft has support for Linux, even, I
> have Edge and Skype running, my Hotmail email address account open in
> it, just as I have Gmail in Chrome. I can still use Firefox when I
> wish.
>
who can't i just don't want to ,
move all the security programs i need

% <pursent100@gmail.com> wrote:

>X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 240714-8, 2024-7-14), Outbound message
>X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
>
>who can't i just don't want to ,
>move all the security programs i need

Are you being attacked deliberately?

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Joel wrote:
> % <pursent100@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 240714-8, 2024-7-14), Outbound message
>> X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
>>
>> who can't i just don't want to ,
>> move all the security programs i need
>
>
> Are you being attacked deliberately?
>
usually , at least i was ,
it's all ok now but moving it ,
that would be a pain

On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 21:05:34 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 14 Jul 2024 07:10:40 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 06:02:45 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Here’s a simple test: try installing more than one or two of them on a
>>> Windows machine. You might get as far as half a dozen if you’re lucky.
>>> The more you put on, the less stable your Windows machine becomes,
>>> until at some point it falls over and becomes completely unusable.
>>>
>>> And the only way to recover? Wipe and reinstall your Windows system.
>>
>> The only reply I can think of is 'complete utter bullshit'.
>
> Give it a try. Prove me wrong.

No, you have that ass-backwards. Prove me wrong on the Windows platform
and cough up that data package that only runs on Linux. Why would
installing Python packages cause Windows to be unstable? Like I said,
bullshit.

On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 21:05:09 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 14:30:02 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> venv in general is kinda confusing in my opinion.
>
> I think users are going back to virtualenv.

venv has been part of the standard library since 3.3. It is a subset of
virtualenv and unless you have special needs doesn't require installing
another application.

On 15 Jul 2024 04:30:11 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 21:05:09 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 14:30:02 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>
>>> venv in general is kinda confusing in my opinion.
>>
>> I think users are going back to virtualenv.
>
> venv has been part of the standard library since 3.3.

It was also meant to replace virtualenv. Seems that goal has been
abandoned.

On 15 Jul 2024 04:18:18 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 21:05:34 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 14 Jul 2024 07:10:40 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 06:02:45 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here’s a simple test: try installing more than one or two of them on
>>>> a Windows machine. You might get as far as half a dozen if you’re
>>>> lucky.
>>>> The more you put on, the less stable your Windows machine becomes,
>>>> until at some point it falls over and becomes completely unusable.
>>>>
>>>> And the only way to recover? Wipe and reinstall your Windows system.
>>>
>>> The only reply I can think of is 'complete utter bullshit'.
>>
>> Give it a try. Prove me wrong.
>
> No, you have that ass-backwards.

I wasn’t the one who started this thread, claiming that Windows is somehow
on a par with Linux for scientific work. We all know that’s laughable.

Lester Thorpe wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 14 Jul 2024 12:37:52 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>>
>> Are you that late you don't use UTF-8? Any European character should be
>> correctly displayed on any up-to-date program using UTF-8.
>
> 𝙲𝚊𝚗 𝚢𝚘𝚞 𝚛𝚎𝚊𝚍 𝚝𝚑𝚒𝚜? 𝙸𝚝'𝚜 𝚙𝚞𝚛𝚎 𝚊𝚗𝚍 𝚞𝚗𝚊𝚍𝚞𝚕𝚝𝚎𝚛𝚊𝚝𝚎𝚍 𝚄𝚗𝚒𝚌𝚘𝚍𝚎.
>
> 𝙻𝚎𝚜𝚝𝚎𝚛 𝚃𝚑𝚘𝚛𝚙𝚎
>
> 𝚂𝚢𝚜𝚝𝚎𝚖𝙳: 𝚜𝚘𝚕𝚟𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝚊𝚕𝚕 𝚝𝚑𝚎 𝚙𝚛𝚘𝚋𝚕𝚎𝚖𝚜 𝚝𝚑𝚊𝚝 𝚢𝚘𝚞 𝚗𝚎𝚟𝚎𝚛 𝚔𝚗𝚎𝚠 𝚢𝚘𝚞 𝚑𝚊𝚍.

No problem in slrn running on a urxvt terminal. Small font!

--
A gift of a flower will soon be made to you.

On 7/14/2024 5:27 PM, Joel wrote:
> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>> On 7/14/2024 2:02 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On 14 Jul 2024 04:09:38 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 01:35:14 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 20:39:07 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've never seen or heard of a Linux-only Python data science library.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given that you’ve never done any data science, I’m not surprised.
>>>>
>>>> Would you care to share which packages only work on Linux?
>>>
>>> Here’s a simple test: try installing more than one or two of them on a
>>> Windows machine. You might get as far as half a dozen if you’re lucky. The
>>> more you put on, the less stable your Windows machine becomes, until at
>>> some point it falls over and becomes completely unusable.
>>>
>>> And the only way to recover? Wipe and reinstall your Windows system.
>>
>> BWA!
>>
>> Are you drinking some fancy, high-alcohol NZ beer?
>>
>> Linux makes you crazy.
>
>
> I think Lawrence is (trying to?) describ(e/ing) something in beyond-PC
> land.

Whatever he's trying to do here fits well with the sustained
anti-Windows idiocy I've seen from cola advocates for 20 years.

Rex Ballard: "it took about SIX NT servers, to do the work of ONE Linux
server"

Linuxiac: "up to 50X speed increase GNU/Linux affords [over Windows]"

D'Oliveiro: Installing a half-dozen python data science libraries will
make your Windows system unusable

drool.

A couple years ago I had Oracle, DB2, PostgreSQL, SQLServer, MariaDB and
Firebird dbms servers running at the same time on my Win10 system with
8GB memory. It was 100% stable. The servers weren't being hammered
with data requests, but they were all running at the same time and each
remained extremely responsive, as did the entire system.

> There's a clear reason why desktop Linux is the best

That's your opinion. I dislike most of the amateurish hobbyware you're
forced to endure on Linux (but to be fair I haven't put a distro thru
its paces in a few years).

I do like the Linux command line much more than I did even 2-3 years ago.

And you can't beat package managers.

I also like the simplicity/common sense of the FHS. I actually get
pissed when digging thru the Registry or
C:\Users\<usr>\AppData\Local-LocalLow-Roaming. It's embarrassing to
look at. Folders named
C:\ProgramData\{279F6C59-F177-4D5F-9F4A-6D2984D9A649}.

C:\ProgramData\Packages and C:\Users\DFS\AppData\Local\Packages. Why?

The other day I installed a Windows app (don't remember which), tried it
for a little while and uninstalled it. Then checked the Registry for the
app name. I found at least 15 entries that should've been removed. wtf?

But in the end, for me the application software (and to a much lesser
extent games) wins out over the superior architecture of Unix.

> and it's> because it can be the best on any device. Windows has a
> limited life span and limited advantage during it.

The best software is a huge advantage.

> I will admit, seeing Win10 and
> 11 when the computer was new, was impressive, but you get over it, you
> realize how much better Linux would be.

Not at all. thunar alone is enough to keep me away from many Linux
distros, and Notepad++ and Office is enough to keep me on Windows.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 18:43 this Sunday (GMT):
> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 14:30:02 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> venv in general is kinda confusing in my opinion.
>
> How so? The basic use is simple
>
> https://docs.python.org/3/library/venv.html
>
> python -m venv /path/to/new/virtual/environment
>
> I group all my python project in a python directory so it would be
>
> python3 -m venv new_project
> cd new_project
> . ./bin/activate
> python -m pip install matplotlib
> python -m pip install numpy
> etc.
>
> You can get creative with different python versions but I stick with the
> basics. I need to use python3 initially since that's the base install.
> After activating the environment it's just python and refers to the python
> interpreter in the bin directory of the venv directory. Similarly all the
> packages are placed in lib/python.3x/site-packages. You are not trying to
> install potentially conflicting packages in a global site-packages.
>
> To get back to the global environment 'deactivate'
>
> https://python.land/virtual-environments/virtualenv
>
> That's a more coherent explanation and points out the minor differences
> between Windows and Linux.
>
> Anaconda can be used with virtual environments too. If you're a real
> masochist you can use both but I would suggest sticking with one or the
> other. I had problems installing packages I needed with Anaconda so went
> back to standard python for most purposes. Esri favors Anaconda so I do
> have it on one machine.
>
> fwiw, VS Code allows you to select the interpreter and thus the venv. For
> example if you've installed keras in a venv and switch to a different venv
> you don't have access to keras anymore.

I didn't know about bin/activate, probably bc on my computer it's not
marked as executable..you have to source it for it to work properly. I
think I only used it because a project I downloaded required it, and
found running the full bin/python3 path every time frustrating.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 16:00:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> I didn't know about bin/activate, probably bc on my computer it's not
> marked as executable..you have to source it for it to work properly. I
> think I only used it because a project I downloaded required it, and
> found running the full bin/python3 path every time frustrating.

No, they're scripts and on Linux you get 4 flavors, activate
activate.csh activate.fish, and Activate.ps1. The last is for PowerShell
which you can install on Ubuntu, though I'm not sure why.

I used to use tcsh but when the Linux world seemed to prefer bash I
switched. I never did anything with fish.

On Windows you get activate.bat, deactivate.bat, activate, and
Activate.ps1 and they are in the Scripts subdirectory.

After you activate a venv the prompt will change to something like

(numerical) rbowman@kropotkin:
(fastapi) rbowman@kropotkin:

and on deactivate it goes back to

rbowman@kropotkin:

The site=packages for the numerical venv include matplotlib, seaborn,
torch, sklearn etc and their dependent packages. The fastapi packages are
completely different, fastapi, pydantic, uvicorn, and so forth. Try
running the fastapi script in the numerical environment and you won't get
past

from typing import Union
from fastapi import FastAPI
from pydantic import BaseModel

That's what virtual environments are all about. Try installing all those
packages in the global site-packages and you get the mess Lawrence
mentioned, and it won't matter if you're on Linux, Windows, BSD, or any
other OS. The clueless can screw any OS up.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 17:24 this Monday (GMT):
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 16:00:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> I didn't know about bin/activate, probably bc on my computer it's not
>> marked as executable..you have to source it for it to work properly. I
>> think I only used it because a project I downloaded required it, and
>> found running the full bin/python3 path every time frustrating.
>
> No, they're scripts and on Linux you get 4 flavors, activate
> activate.csh activate.fish, and Activate.ps1. The last is for PowerShell
> which you can install on Ubuntu, though I'm not sure why.

Some people prefer powershell maybe? That's the only thing I can think
of..

> I used to use tcsh but when the Linux world seemed to prefer bash I
> switched. I never did anything with fish.

I've always stuck to bash, but I have customized it a lot. I even hacked
in a "last process took x seconds" counter on it :D

> On Windows you get activate.bat, deactivate.bat, activate, and
> Activate.ps1 and they are in the Scripts subdirectory.
>
> After you activate a venv the prompt will change to something like
>
> (numerical) rbowman@kropotkin:
> (fastapi) rbowman@kropotkin:
>
> and on deactivate it goes back to
>
> rbowman@kropotkin:
>
> The site=packages for the numerical venv include matplotlib, seaborn,
> torch, sklearn etc and their dependent packages. The fastapi packages are
> completely different, fastapi, pydantic, uvicorn, and so forth. Try
> running the fastapi script in the numerical environment and you won't get
> past
>
> from typing import Union
> from fastapi import FastAPI
> from pydantic import BaseModel
>
> That's what virtual environments are all about. Try installing all those
> packages in the global site-packages and you get the mess Lawrence
> mentioned, and it won't matter if you're on Linux, Windows, BSD, or any
> other OS. The clueless can screw any OS up.

Right, I understand why venvs are made, I just didn't realize there was
a script to make it easier to use, probably because I have a bad habit
of using tab completion to look through bin folders :P

--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 10:44:23 -0400, DFS wrote:

> D'Oliveiro: Installing a half-dozen python data science libraries will
> make your Windows system unusable
>
> A couple years ago I had Oracle, DB2, PostgreSQL, SQLServer, MariaDB and
> Firebird dbms servers running at the same time on my Win10 system with
> 8GB memory. It was 100% stable.

For how long?

How wonderful. But none of that is relevant to data science, is it?

On 7/16/2024 8:45 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 10:44:23 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> D'Oliveiro: Installing a half-dozen python data science libraries will
>> make your Windows system unusable

You forgot to quote the 'drool' that came immediately after that spaz.

>> A couple years ago I had Oracle, DB2, PostgreSQL, SQLServer, MariaDB and
>> Firebird dbms servers running at the same time on my Win10 system with
>> 8GB memory. It was 100% stable.
>
> For how long?

Maybe a couple weeks. I installed each dbms and replicated a db
structure, then copied 12GB or so from my SQLite master to each. Left
them in place for a while to do testing and development, then removed
them until I was back down to no db servers running at all.

> How wonderful.

It WAS wonderful.

https://imgur.com/a/4fOCniU

And I discovered posting data to Oracle using bulk inserts via Python
was *blazingly fast* for some tables:

14.88 secs to post 2799305 rows (188096 per sec)

> But none of that is relevant to data science, is it?

Hard to say. I expect those dbms are much more resource intensive than
any data science library, so my positive experience with them on a
low-end machine (Win10, i5-750, 8GB memory) bodes well for data science
applications running well on Windows.

I note you still haven't made any attempt to back up your silly claim.
Why not?

On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 23:20:43 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Hard to say. I expect those dbms are much more resource intensive than
> any data science library, so my positive experience with them on a
> low-end machine (Win10, i5-750, 8GB memory) bodes well for data science
> applications running well on Windows.

There is a reason why packages like TensorFlow and PyTorch are much
happier if they can find an Nvidia GPU. They can emulate CUDA on a cpu but
it is slower.

Linear regression, gradient descent, even k-means clustering gets
intensive as does displaying the results with matplotlib, seaborn, or
other packages.

All that said, the performance on equivalent hardware is very close and I
haven't been able to blow up a Windows machine using the data science
libraries. In fact my Windows 11 laptop and the Ubuntu desktop both use
the same Ryzen 7 cpu and M.2 NVMe memory. Neither has a Nvidia GPU.

On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 14:10:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Some people prefer powershell maybe?

I don’t know why. After spending decades conditioning its users to be
allergic to the command line, Microsoft was never going to have much
success getting them to change their minds.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:12 this Friday (GMT):
> On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 14:10:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> Some people prefer powershell maybe?
>
> I don’t know why. After spending decades conditioning its users to be
> allergic to the command line, Microsoft was never going to have much
> success getting them to change their minds.

Plus, the whole structure of PS is completely different to every other
terminal from what I've seen. Even CMD has a basic "exename, then arguments" layout.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom