On 2024-06-09 5:38 p.m., vallor wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 16:30:28 -0400, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote in
> <666610e0$0$2422127$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:
>
>> Later, abusing cola 'advocates' by tossing their idiocy back in their
>> faces spurred me to use python to download Usenet posts and put them
>> into a relational database, from which I can extract drooling such as
>> this from Feeb in Oct 2017:
>>
>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Beginning/top of post "When you say standardization, you of course mean
>> a standardized GUI toolkit, and that is what Microshit has and that is
>> what, admittedly makes Microshit a better choice than GNU/Linux."
>>
>>
>> End of same post:
>> ".. the GUI interface, and especially a STANDARD GUI, severely limits
>> the capabilities of any computing machine. That is why GNU/Linux. with
>> its non-standardized assortments of toolkits and libraries is the
>> superior choice."
>>
>> <ddb53c30-8078-49b5-9462-e602ae6f4f76@googlegroups.com>
>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I looked it up, and didn't surprise me who brain-farted his way
> through that post.
>
> But regarding that matter, back when I used Windows, I showed
> a screenshot of my desktop, where every application had its own
> ideas about what it wanted to look like. So Windows ain't "all that".
>
> On my Linux desktop, the only apps with their own oddities are
> those without title bars, such as Steam, obs-studio, and
> the EDO game launcher. Maybe Blender too. So the idea
> that Linux desktops are jungles of mis-matched interfaces
> are somewhat exaggerated.

They're exaggerated _today_, but this was a common problem until the
mid-2010s at the very least. If anything, the look of programs, whether
they are GTK or Qt, is very consistent now. You might find the odd
distribution which takes no care into ensuring that everything looks
right, but I know that Ubuntu, Pop_OS! and Linux Mint generally show no
visual difference in the applications they provide through their stores.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
TG: @AndrzejMatuch
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king.

On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:52:49 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> They're exaggerated _today_, but this was a common problem until the
> mid-2010s at the very least. If anything, the look of programs, whether
> they are GTK or Qt, is very consistent now. You might find the odd
> distribution which takes no care into ensuring that everything looks
> right, but I know that Ubuntu, Pop_OS! and Linux Mint generally show no
> visual difference in the applications they provide through their stores.

I'm more concerned that the cross-platform apps I use like Code and QGIS
look the same rather than conforming to some Windows, Gtk, or Qt ideal.
It's not a huge deal but I'd be just as happy if Python's venv was the
same rather than sticking activate in Scripts or bin depending. I suppose
there is some valid reason.

On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 21:38:25 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:

> But regarding that matter, back when I used Windows, I showed a
> screenshot of my desktop, where every application had its own ideas
> about what it wanted to look like. So Windows ain't "all that".

Worse than that, Microsoft can’t quite make up its mind which GUI toolkit
developers should use. Is it Dotnet? WinForms? WPF? WinUI? MAUI? MFC??
WTL??

> Maybe Blender too.

There is this ongoing argument about: should an app “blend in” with the
look of the platform it’s running on, at the cost of inconsistency between
different versions of the app for different platforms, or should it have
its own consistent look, regardless of which platform it runs on?

There seems to be no final answer to this: some apps choose one way, some
choose the other.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 21:38:25 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:
>
>> But regarding that matter, back when I used Windows, I showed a
>> screenshot of my desktop, where every application had its own ideas
>> about what it wanted to look like. So Windows ain't "all that".
>
> Worse than that, Microsoft can’t quite make up its mind which GUI toolkit
> developers should use. Is it Dotnet? WinForms? WPF? WinUI? MAUI? MFC??
> WTL??

And in the multimedia domain? Win MM? Windows UWP? Windows App SDK?

>> Maybe Blender too.
>
> There is this ongoing argument about: should an app “blend in” with the
> look of the platform it’s running on, at the cost of inconsistency between
> different versions of the app for different platforms, or should it have
> its own consistent look, regardless of which platform it runs on?
>
> There seems to be no final answer to this: some apps choose one way, some
> choose the other.

Choice is good :-)

--
You will lose your present job and have to become a door to door mayonnaise
salesman.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 00:57 this Sunday (GMT):
> On Sat, 08 Jun 2024 13:49:45 -0400, Joel wrote:
>
>> ... I just wonder what it would take to start from nothing.
>
> One way to find out: <https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/>.

Isn't LFS somewhat difficult? You'd have to have some dedication to see
it though to the end.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:01 this Sunday (GMT):
> On Sat, 08 Jun 2024 15:03:34 -0400, Joel wrote:
>
>> I don't know what you would expect to do with it.
>
> When I started doing Linux/Unix programming (late 1990s), it was back-end
> web stuff with Perl. Then I needed to do something with a GUI that a local
> user could run. I initially wrote it with Tcl/Tk.
>
> Then I discovered Python. I redid the app with that, using GTK as the GUI
> toolkit. It worked so much better, I never found another use for Tcl after
> that.
>
> These days, Python is my language of choice for bread-and-butter back-end
> stuff. It has a vast number of addon libraries for interfacing to just
> about any kind of functionality you might want. And I have done my bit to
> add to those libraries.

Oh cool, you're a python dev?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote at 23:30 this Saturday (GMT):
> On 6/8/2024 5:32 PM, Joel wrote:
>
>> I can't imagine I'd need anything beyond C.
>
>
> I hope you're not gonna pull a Feeb and claim you're a C guru that can
> 'move the Earth', but refuse to show ANY decent code, then make lame
> excuses like "I have other fish to fry".

Seems like a fun challenge.. especially since im kinda rusty with c

> 1) write your own C to sort these 3 names (by last then first):
>
> William Thomas
> Zachary Jones
> Jim Thomas

I'll be honest, I might be bad but I completely forgot how to sort
strings.. sorry

> 2) write your own C to count the words in:
>
> "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country."

#include <stdio.h>
#include <ctype.h>

const char phrase[] = "Now is the time for all good men to come to the
aid of their country.";

int main()
{ const char *phr = phrase;
int words = 0;
int space = 0; // does c have bool?

while(*phr)
{
if(space && isalpha(*phr))
{
space = 0;
words++;
}
if(isblank(*phr)) space = 1;

phr++;
}

printf("Words: %d, words);
}

> 3) write your own C to calc the mean, median and mode of:
>
> 1,2,3,4,5,5,6,7,8,9

#include <stdio.h>
#define COUNT_CNT 10

int nums[] = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, -1};

int main()
{ double mean;
int median, mode, md_count[COUNT_CNT], len;

for( len = 0; nums[len] != -1; len++ )
{
mean += nums[len];
md_count[nums[len]]++;
}
mean /= len;

if(len % 2 == 0)
{
int mid = len / 2;
median = nums[mid] + nums[mid + 1]];
median /= 2;
}
else
median = nums[len / 2];
for( int i = 0; i < COUNT_CNT; i++ )
{
if(md_count[mode] < md_count[i]) mode = i;
}

printf("mean %g, median %d, mode %d", mean, median, mode);
}

These compiled fine on my machine (gcc 12.2.0)

> Why is it I have a VERY strong feeling you and Feeb and C are about to
> be pwned by python?

IMO, both are pretty good languages, with their own strengths..like, C
is good for dealing with the raw data and it can be really satisfying to
get everything working, and python is great for throwing something
together.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote at 17:56 this Sunday (GMT):
> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>>>>Not buying it, pal. I don't believe you can still write C code to
>>>>accomplish those things. You're way rusty!
>>>
>>> It would come back to me in mere moments.
>>
>>You're better than most programmers I know then. After being away from a
>>language for a while it's usually 'Duh, how do I start?' The worst case is
>>you've been using a somewhat similar language in the meantime.
>
>
> I majored in comp sci, I have used a number of languages, even
> multiple platforms of assembly, just not in a long time. I've done
> amazing things with mIRC script's language. It's not a hard thing for
> me to pick up the process of coding, it *is* hard to think of an
> original idea for something to code, though.

Oh, awesome. I'm about to start comp sci myself ^^
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote at 02:32 this Sunday (GMT):
> On Jun 8, 2024 at 7:42:16 PM EDT, "Joel" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I can't imagine I'd need anything beyond C.
>>>
>>> I hope you're not gonna pull a Feeb and claim you're a C guru that can
>>> 'move the Earth', but refuse to show ANY decent code, then make lame
>>> excuses like "I have other fish to fry".
>>>
>>>
>>> 1) write your own C to sort these 3 names (by last then first):
>>>
>>> William Thomas
>>> Zachary Jones
>>> Jim Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> 2) write your own C to count the words in:
>>>
>>> "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country."
>>>
>>>
>>> 3) write your own C to calc the mean, median and mode of:
>>>
>>> 1,2,3,4,5,5,6,7,8,9
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why is it I have a VERY strong feeling you and Feeb and C are about to
>>> be pwned by python?
>>
>>
>> What purpose does coding that serve? I can code, I choose not to
>> because everything's already been coded, by someone else.
>
> What an extremely naive thing to say.
>
> Granted, all of the alleged "coding challenges" that Feeb presents here HAVE
> already been coded. But that's what happens when you think that "All
> programming is about solving trivial math problems".

A lot of times, programming involves connecting "trivial problems in an
advanced way". Sorting a list of names would be needed for a dropdown,
letter or word counts are usually used to limit how much text a user can
input, and averages are useful for any kind of data summary. While
they're not /everything/ in programming, knowing the basics (or being
able to figure it out easily) can definitely help you out. They're also
fun to figure out in my opinion.

[snip]
> In the real world, very few problems have "already been coded". Which is why
> people who proclaim that "AI" is going to make programmers "obsolete" have no
> GD clue what they are talking about.

Yeah, AI is very very annoying and not a good replacement for coders.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 6/10/2024 10:40 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:

> I'm about to start comp sci myself ^^

As a college major? Cool.

I've been downloading compsci (and other disciplines) course materials
from universities for years.

https://imgur.com/a/5xoBBDO

MIT has a TON of Open Courseware courses. A variety of good schools
have a few "open courses" on EdX, but most of the big schools require a
student login to access course websites.

Stanford has only a few official open courses, but it seems the compsci
dept forgets (maybe on purpose?) to put a lot of their regular courses
behind the paywall, and I used wget to download a bunch.

https://imgur.com/a/6GLIVJZ

example on WSL:

$ mkdir CalTech
$ cd CalTech
$ mkdir CS122
$ cd CS122
$ wget -r http://courses.cms.caltech.edu/cs122/lectures/
$ wget -r http://courses.cms.caltech.edu/cs122/assignments/

Also check out Harvard's CS50 class. Excellent teacher.

On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 23:43:58 -0400, DFS wrote:

> MIT has a TON of Open Courseware courses.

Don’t forget the (in)famous “Structure And Interpretation Of Computer
Programs”.

On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 02:40:08 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> ... C is good for dealing with the raw data and it can be really
> satisfying to get everything working, and python is great for throwing
> something together.

Throwing something together to deal with raw data also works well in
Python. Where C excels is in large amounts of low-level computation. This
is the one area where Python on its own gets slow.

But then, you will likely find that, among the large number of toolkits
written in C for Python, there is bound to be something (e.g. NumPy) that
can be adapted to the particular low-level operations that you need to do.

On 6/10/2024 11:48 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 23:43:58 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> MIT has a TON of Open Courseware courses.
>
> Don’t forget the (in)famous “Structure And Interpretation Of Computer
> Programs”.

That's the name of the book (written by MIT profs) and the MIT course
6.001 that used it.

This MIT site https://web.mit.edu/6.001/6.037/ said the book was
written for the course.

There's a new Javascript Edition of the book

https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262543231/structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs/

On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 02:40:08 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> const char *phr = phrase;

Oh, you're one of those :)

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 04:30 this Tuesday (GMT):
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 02:40:08 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> const char *phr = phrase;
>
> Oh, you're one of those :)

What's that mean?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 04:50:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 04:30 this Tuesday (GMT):
>> On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 02:40:08 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>
>>> const char *phr = phrase;
>>
>> Oh, you're one of those :)
>
>
> What's that mean?

I'm not very fond of const. It has its place but it gets thrown around
promiscuously. A function where a parameter has be defined as a const for
no particular reason can gum up the works.

On 11 Jun 2024 06:54:44 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 04:50:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 04:30 this Tuesday (GMT):
>>
>>> On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 02:40:08 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>
>>>> const char *phr = phrase;
>>>
>>> Oh, you're one of those :)
>>
>> What's that mean?
>
> I'm not very fond of const. It has its place but it gets thrown around
> promiscuously. A function where a parameter has be defined as a const
> for no particular reason can gum up the works.

In this case, it indicates that the variable “phr” only has read-only
access to the string.

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 04:50:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 04:30 this Tuesday (GMT):
>>> On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 02:40:08 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>
>>>> const char *phr = phrase;
>>>
>>> Oh, you're one of those :)
>>
>>
>> What's that mean?
>
> I'm not very fond of const. It has its place but it gets thrown around
> promiscuously. A function where a parameter has be defined as a const for
> no particular reason can gum up the works.

const is used to enforce certain semantics. Of course, it is not necessary for
a simple C function parameter (e.g. an int) to be const unless one is pedantic.

--
Your temporary financial embarrassment will be relieved in a surprising manner.

candycanearter07 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote at 02:32 this Sunday (GMT):
>
> <brevsnip>
>
> A lot of times, programming involves connecting "trivial problems in an
> advanced way". Sorting a list of names would be needed for a dropdown,
> letter or word counts are usually used to limit how much text a user can
> input, and averages are useful for any kind of data summary. While
> they're not /everything/ in programming, knowing the basics (or being
> able to figure it out easily) can definitely help you out. They're also
> fun to figure out in my opinion.
>
> [snip]
>> In the real world, very few problems have "already been coded". Which is why
>> people who proclaim that "AI" is going to make programmers "obsolete" have no
>> GD clue what they are talking about.
>
> Yeah, AI is very very annoying and not a good replacement for coders.

But here is another take:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/11/20/a-coder-considers-the-waning-days-of-the-craft

There will also be a need for coders, though. Cannot completely trust what AI
mines from the internet.

--
You will remember something that you should not have forgotten.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 06:55 this Tuesday (GMT):
> On 11 Jun 2024 06:54:44 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 04:50:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>
>>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 04:30 this Tuesday (GMT):
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 02:40:08 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> const char *phr = phrase;
>>>>
>>>> Oh, you're one of those :)
>>>
>>> What's that mean?
>>
>> I'm not very fond of const. It has its place but it gets thrown around
>> promiscuously. A function where a parameter has be defined as a const
>> for no particular reason can gum up the works.
>
> In this case, it indicates that the variable “phr” only has read-only
> access to the string.

Well, yes, since the string itself is also a constant.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid>
wrote:

>> I majored in comp sci, I have used a number of languages, even
>> multiple platforms of assembly, just not in a long time. I've done
>> amazing things with mIRC script's language. It's not a hard thing for
>> me to pick up the process of coding, it *is* hard to think of an
>> original idea for something to code, though.
>
>Oh, awesome. I'm about to start comp sci myself ^^

Nice, I bet you will excel in it.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 6/10/2024 10:40 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote at 23:30 this Saturday (GMT):
>> On 6/8/2024 5:32 PM, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> I can't imagine I'd need anything beyond C.
>>
>>
>> I hope you're not gonna pull a Feeb and claim you're a C guru that can
>> 'move the Earth', but refuse to show ANY decent code, then make lame
>> excuses like "I have other fish to fry".
>
> Seems like a fun challenge.. especially since im kinda rusty with c
>
>> 1) write your own C to sort these 3 names (by last then first):
>>
>> William Thomas
>> Zachary Jones
>> Jim Thomas
>
> I'll be honest, I might be bad but I completely forgot how to sort
> strings.. sorry

Usually qsort().

>> 2) write your own C to count the words in:
>>
>> "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country."
>
> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <ctype.h>
>
> const char phrase[] = "Now is the time for all good men to come to the
> aid of their country.";
>
> int main()
> {
> const char *phr = phrase;
> int words = 0;
> int space = 0; // does c have bool?

Yes.

> while(*phr)
> {
> if(space && isalpha(*phr))
> {
> space = 0;
> words++;
> }
> if(isblank(*phr)) space = 1;
>
> phr++;
> }
>
> printf("Words: %d, words);
> }

My wordcounter code used:

if(isspace(myStr[i]) && !isspace(myStr[i+1])) {countWords++;}

to also count words that might begin with numbers.

"For the right money cola Linux 'advocates' would work 4MS in 2ms."

>> 3) write your own C to calc the mean, median and mode of:
>>
>> 1,2,3,4,5,5,6,7,8,9
>
> #include <stdio.h>
> #define COUNT_CNT 10
>
> int nums[] = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, -1};
>
> int main()
> {
> double mean;
> int median, mode, md_count[COUNT_CNT], len;
>
> for( len = 0; nums[len] != -1; len++ )
> {
> mean += nums[len];
> md_count[nums[len]]++;
> }
> mean /= len;
>
> if(len % 2 == 0)
> {
> int mid = len / 2;
> median = nums[mid] + nums[mid + 1]];
> median /= 2;
> }
> else
> median = nums[len / 2];
>
> for( int i = 0; i < COUNT_CNT; i++ )
> {
> if(md_count[mode] < md_count[i]) mode = i;
> }
>
> printf("mean %g, median %d, mode %d", mean, median, mode);
> }
>
> These compiled fine on my machine (gcc 12.2.0)

Did you actually run the code?

I got a segfault (WSL Ubuntu, gcc 11.4). Had to make a few tweaks to
get it to run and provide correct answers.

Do you want me to tell you what I did, or do you want to figure it out?

Hint: after the line "mean /= len;" print out the contents of
md_count[]. You should get:

1. 1
2. 1
3. 1
4. 1
5. 2
6. 1
7. 1
8. 1
9. 1

I like the technique you use for the mode count, but something to
remember is there can be multiple modes, and your code as is will
identify only one.

And the numbers were already sorted, but if they weren't you would have
to sort them - forward or reverse - before getting the median.

>> Why is it I have a VERY strong feeling you and Feeb and C are about to
>> be pwned by python?
>
>
> IMO, both are pretty good languages, with their own strengths..like, C
> is good for dealing with the raw data and it can be really satisfying to
> get everything working, and python is great for throwing something
> together.

I like them both, too. But C is too time-consuming for me. I just
don't spend enough time using it exclusively to be productive vs python.

Another language I've had my eye on is Julia.

On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 08:13:31 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> const is used to enforce certain semantics. Of course, it is not
> necessary for a simple C function parameter (e.g. an int) to be const
> unless one is pedantic.

I can't cook up a simple example but I've hit instances using functions in
legacy code where one const in a function resulted in having to spread
const around to keep the compiler from whining. It's like the situations
where you use const-cast in C++ to get things to play nice.

On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 12:20:05 -0400, DFS wrote:

> n 6/10/2024 10:40 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
>> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote at 23:30 this Saturday (GMT):
>>> On 6/8/2024 5:32 PM, Joel wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can't imagine I'd need anything beyond C.
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope you're not gonna pull a Feeb and claim you're a C guru that can
>>> 'move the Earth', but refuse to show ANY decent code, then make lame
>>> excuses like "I have other fish to fry".
>>
>> Seems like a fun challenge.. especially since im kinda rusty with c
>>
>>> 1) write your own C to sort these 3 names (by last then first):
>>>
>>> William Thomas Zachary Jones Jim Thomas
>>
>> I'll be honest, I might be bad but I completely forgot how to sort
>> strings.. sorry
>
>
> Usually qsort().

Enter Big O...

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 08:13:31 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> const is used to enforce certain semantics. Of course, it is not
>> necessary for a simple C function parameter (e.g. an int) to be const
>> unless one is pedantic.
>
> I can't cook up a simple example but I've hit instances using functions in
> legacy code where one const in a function resulted in having to spread
> const around to keep the compiler from whining. It's like the situations
> where you use const-cast in C++ to get things to play nice.

You have to be consistent with const. In some cases, you may need to use
const_cast<>() or make some class member mutable.

It's an art to get it right. But the precision pays off.

--
Your fly might be open (but don't check it just now).