Microsoft copied its idea of the command line from Gary Kildall’s
CP/M, which in turn copied it from the DEC operating systems of the
1970s. This is just a simple string/array of characters. Implicit in
these systems is the idea that one program cannot directly execute
another; it has to go through a “command interpreter”, which has to be
given a “command” to “interpret”.

Compare the Unix concept of a command line: it is not a “line” at all, but
an array of strings. One program can directly execute another without
having to go through a shell: it can construct and pass this argument
array without having to worry about “special” characters that might be
(mis)interpreted by some CLI/shell intermediary -- unless you choose to go
through such an intermediary.

Those old DEC systems tended to have more complex syntax for their
commands than what is supported by your typical *nix command-line
program. But then, the sheer wealth of *nix command-line tools,
compared to what is available on Microsoft DOS/Windows/NT/PowerShell
and indeed all the proprietary OSes put together, shows that the
*nix-style command line is far more versatile. In *nix, most of the
sophistication is delegated to the shell language that is used to
invoke these programs, while the programs themselves can usually parse
their arguments using a fairly modest amount of code, with little or
no need for some more sophisticated command-line-handling library.

Just to reinforce the direction that Microsoft took, Dave Cutler,
the brains behind Windows NT, also came from DEC, where he was
part of a nest of Unix-haters.

So Microsoft’s recent rediscovery that “the command line is cool”
remains hampered by this brain-dead underlying architecture. The
requirement that most if not all process creation has to be mediated
by some command-line “shell” makes it quite clumsy to emulate the kind
of multi-process pipelines that are all in a day’s work on a Linux or
other *nix system. It also leads to some interesting security
vulnerabilities.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> <brevsnip>
>
> Those old DEC systems tended to have more complex syntax for their
> commands than what is supported by your typical *nix command-line
> program.

I remember the PIP (peripheral interchange program). About all I remember is
that is was complex. About all I remember is that is was complex.

> <more brevsnip>

> So Microsoft’s recent rediscovery that “the command line is cool”
> remains hampered by this brain-dead underlying architecture. The
> requirement that most if not all process creation has to be mediated
> by some command-line “shell”...

You sure about that?

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/procthread/creating-processes

> ...makes it quite clumsy to emulate the kind
> of multi-process pipelines that are all in a day’s work on a Linux or
> other *nix system. It also leads to some interesting security
> vulnerabilities.

--
Q: What is the sound of one cat napping?
A: Mu.

On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:13:32 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> I remember the PIP (peripheral interchange program). About all I
> remember is that is was complex. About all I remember is that is was
> complex.

http://gaby.de/cpm/manuals/archive/cpm22htm/ch1.htm#Section_1.6.4

Yeah, but you could get data from the PTR.

I'll admit i get the same queasy feeling from 'dd'. I think dd may stand
for Destructive Disaster.

On 7 Jun 2024 16:50:05 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> I'll admit i get the same queasy feeling from 'dd'. I think dd may stand
> for Destructive Disaster.

If you look at the man page, the synopsis line says “copy and convert”. It
was going to be called “cc”, but that name had already been taken by the C
compiler. So they went with the next letter in the alphabet instead.

I have had accidents with rsync, too. But it’s still a wonderful tool that
I wouldn’t want to be without.

On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 23:53:57 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> I have had accidents with rsync, too. But it’s still a wonderful tool
> that I wouldn’t want to be without.

It was on Windows so it wasn't rsync but our support people had a similar
tool. They would edit configuration files on the server and then copy them
to all the other machines. Tough shit if another machine had been
configured differently for some reason.

On 8 Jun 2024 00:12:07 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 23:53:57 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> I have had accidents with rsync, too. But it’s still a wonderful tool
>> that I wouldn’t want to be without.
>
> It was on Windows so it wasn't rsync but our support people had a
> similar tool. They would edit configuration files on the server and then
> copy them to all the other machines. Tough shit if another machine had
> been configured differently for some reason.

See, the Debian installer has a procedure for dealing with this when
upgrading a package: it compares the config files being potentially
overwritten with the default ones from the old package being replaced; if
they match, they can be safely overwritten by the new package. Otherwise
you get asked what you want to do: leave your changes in place, or
overwrite them, or something else.

But of course that only works for configs kept as text files, which can be
easily diff’d to identify changes.

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:13:32 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> I remember the PIP (peripheral interchange program). About all I
>> remember is that is was complex. About all I remember is that is was
>> complex.
>
> http://gaby.de/cpm/manuals/archive/cpm22htm/ch1.htm#Section_1.6.4
>
> Yeah, but you could get data from the PTR.
>
> I'll admit i get the same queasy feeling from 'dd'. I think dd may stand
> for Destructive Disaster.

I used dd once to clone an XP machine at work to make a virtual machine out of
it (IIRC).

dd is indispensible!

Careful with that axe, Eugene!

--
Let me take you a button-hole lower.
-- William Shakespeare, "Love's Labour's Lost"

On 6/7/2024 6:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> command line

Larry Duh, still livin' in the 70s.

Snap out of it.

DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>On 6/7/2024 6:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> command line
>
>Larry Duh, still livin' in the 70s.
>
>Snap out of it.

Wrong, dude, and you *should* know it, you haven't used PowerShell to
install anything, etc., just like one uses the Linux terminal? I
have, when I was running Windows. It's actually an *asset* of the
platform, it shows that if you can tolerate the bloatware, you do have
components that are as nifty as Unix.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Sat, 08 Jun 2024 09:07:38 -0400, Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote in
<jnl86jth7s9m0gn4cvjm5f2h8bm8e6a6hf@4ax.com>:

> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>>On 6/7/2024 6:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> command line
>>
>>Larry Duh, still livin' in the 70s.
>>
>>Snap out of it.
>
>
> Wrong, dude, and you *should* know it, you haven't used PowerShell to
> install anything, etc., just like one uses the Linux terminal? I have,
> when I was running Windows. It's actually an *asset* of the platform,
> it shows that if you can tolerate the bloatware, you do have components
> that are as nifty as Unix.

They added PowerShell because Unix script-ability was
eating Windows' lunch.

Very surprised DFS (in the new OT thread) was suggesting that RonB
have his wife take manual backups every day. How miserable! Script
that (in PowerShell, if necessary), and then run it with the Scheduler.

These are computers to do our bidding. As was once said
of the Sabbath: the computer was made for mankind, not
mankind made for the computer...

Finally, there's this:

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/scripting/install/installing-powershell-on-linux?view=powershell-7.4

Yep, there is pwsh for Linux, if you are a masochist...

--
-v

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 00:20 this Saturday (GMT):
> On 8 Jun 2024 00:12:07 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 23:53:57 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> I have had accidents with rsync, too. But it’s still a wonderful tool
>>> that I wouldn’t want to be without.
>>
>> It was on Windows so it wasn't rsync but our support people had a
>> similar tool. They would edit configuration files on the server and then
>> copy them to all the other machines. Tough shit if another machine had
>> been configured differently for some reason.
>
> See, the Debian installer has a procedure for dealing with this when
> upgrading a package: it compares the config files being potentially
> overwritten with the default ones from the old package being replaced; if
> they match, they can be safely overwritten by the new package. Otherwise
> you get asked what you want to do: leave your changes in place, or
> overwrite them, or something else.
>
> But of course that only works for configs kept as text files, which can be
> easily diff’d to identify changes.

You can still theoretically diff any binary file?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 6/8/2024 9:07 AM, Joel wrote:
> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>> On 6/7/2024 6:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> command line
>>
>> Larry Duh, still livin' in the 70s.
>>
>> Snap out of it.
>
>
> Wrong, dude, and you *should* know it, you haven't used PowerShell to
> install anything, etc., just like one uses the Linux terminal? I
> have, when I was running Windows. It's actually an *asset* of the
> platform, it shows that if you can tolerate the bloatware, you do have
> components that are as nifty as Unix.

Yeah, I've done a certain amt of stuff with PowerShell, but I much
prefer a bash shell and *nix utilities.

Recently I was in WSL Ubuntu, downloading compsci course materials from
CalTech and Stanford universities, ie

$ wget -r https://cs249i.stanford.edu/

FINISHED --2024-06-08 10:28:21--
Total wall clock time: 5.6s
Downloaded: 22 files, 124M in 1.9s (63.9 MB/s)

On 6/8/2024 9:46 AM, vallor wrote:

> Very surprised DFS (in the new OT thread) was suggesting that RonB
> have his wife take manual backups every day. How miserable!

Why do you hate your files? There's nothing better than keeping them
organized by hand.

> Script
> that (in PowerShell, if necessary), and then run it with the Scheduler.

I wrote a python sync/backup program that I use from time to time, when
the manual process would be too time-consuming.

On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 06:41:55 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> I used dd once to clone an XP machine at work to make a virtual machine
> out of it (IIRC).
>
> dd is indispensible!
>
> Careful with that axe, Eugene!

Our marketing people would set up a laptop with the latest software
releases and data for demo purposes and then use Ghost to clone laptops
for the sales people. Great idea unless someone pllugged them into the
LAN. They all had the same hostname and chaos would ensure.

On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 13:46:00 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:

> They added PowerShell because Unix script-ability was eating Windows'
> lunch.

https://www.theregister.com/2023/10/10/microsoft_says_vbscript_will_be/

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administration/windows-
commands/wscript

The second link leads me to believe that Windows Script Host isn't going
away, only VBScript. I don't know if JScript is still around but engines
for a number of languages have been developed that WSH can use.

On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 11:04:06 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Yeah, I've done a certain amt of stuff with PowerShell, but I much
> prefer a bash shell and *nix utilities.

So Microsoft’s attempts to embrace the “cool of the command line” aren’t
cutting it with you?

On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 13:46:00 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:

> Yep, there is pwsh for Linux, if you are a masochist...

Talking about masochism ...

Microsoft added “wget” and “curl” commands to PowerShell, and these
are also included in the Linux port. Trouble is, they don’t work like
the URL-retrieval programs of the same names as commonly found on
Linux systems. Someone raised an issue on GitHub proposing getting rid
of these command aliases, to avoid clashes with genuine
implementations of these commands. But Microsoft has refused, on the
grounds that it would break existing scripts.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/23/your_wget_is_broken_and_should_die_powershellers_tell_microsoft/

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 06:41:55 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> I used dd once to clone an XP machine at work to make a virtual machine
>> out of it (IIRC).
>>
>> dd is indispensible!
>>
>> Careful with that axe, Eugene!
>
> Our marketing people would set up a laptop with the latest software
> releases and data for demo purposes and then use Ghost to clone laptops
> for the sales people. Great idea unless someone pllugged them into the
> LAN. They all had the same hostname and chaos would ensure.

Good ol' Active Directory. Jeezuzz.

--
Every cloud engenders not a storm.
-- William Shakespeare, "Henry VI"

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 13:46:00 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:
>
>> Yep, there is pwsh for Linux, if you are a masochist...
>
> Talking about masochism ...
>
> Microsoft added “wget” and “curl” commands to PowerShell, and these
> are also included in the Linux port. Trouble is, they don’t work like
> the URL-retrieval programs of the same names as commonly found on
> Linux systems. Someone raised an issue on GitHub proposing getting rid
> of these command aliases, to avoid clashes with genuine
> implementations of these commands. But Microsoft has refused, on the
> grounds that it would break existing scripts.
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/23/your_wget_is_broken_and_should_die_powershellers_tell_microsoft/

All "loads" <heh heh> lead to Microsoft.

--
Q: What do agnostic, insomniac dyslexics do at night?
A: Stay awake and wonder if there's a dog.

candycanearter07 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 00:20 this Saturday (GMT):
>> On 8 Jun 2024 00:12:07 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 23:53:57 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have had accidents with rsync, too. But it’s still a wonderful tool
>>>> that I wouldn’t want to be without.
>>>
>>> It was on Windows so it wasn't rsync but our support people had a
>>> similar tool. They would edit configuration files on the server and then
>>> copy them to all the other machines. Tough shit if another machine had
>>> been configured differently for some reason.
>>
>> See, the Debian installer has a procedure for dealing with this when
>> upgrading a package: it compares the config files being potentially
>> overwritten with the default ones from the old package being replaced; if
>> they match, they can be safely overwritten by the new package. Otherwise
>> you get asked what you want to do: leave your changes in place, or
>> overwrite them, or something else.
>>
>> But of course that only works for configs kept as text files, which can be
>> easily diff’d to identify changes.
>
> You can still theoretically diff any binary file?

A decent tool for that is vbindiff. There are some decent GUI binary differs as
well.

--
You have no real enemies.

On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 09:31:05 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Good ol' Active Directory. Jeezuzz.

https://thehackernews.com/2023/10/microsoft-to-phase-out-ntlm-in-favor-
of.html

Slowly moving forward. Very slowly.

On 9 Jun 2024 19:14:45 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in
<lcmd95Fkt8vU3@mid.individual.net>:

> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 09:31:05 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Good ol' Active Directory. Jeezuzz.
>
> https://thehackernews.com/2023/10/microsoft-to-phase-out-ntlm-in-favor-
> of.html
>
> Slowly moving forward. Very slowly.

Thought I'd mention that this is FOSS, implemented in 1988 as
part of MIT's Project Athena.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerberos_(protocol)#History_and_development

Hopefully Microsoft doesn't try to add proprietary BS to it.

--
-v

vallor wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 9 Jun 2024 19:14:45 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in
> <lcmd95Fkt8vU3@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 09:31:05 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> Good ol' Active Directory. Jeezuzz.
>>
>> https://thehackernews.com/2023/10/microsoft-to-phase-out-ntlm-in-favor-
>> of.html
>>
>> Slowly moving forward. Very slowly.
>
> Thought I'd mention that this is FOSS, implemented in 1988 as
> part of MIT's Project Athena.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerberos_(protocol)#History_and_development
>
> Hopefully Microsoft doesn't try to add proprietary BS to it.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecs/windows_protocols/ms-kile/2a32282e-dd48-4ad9-a542-609804b02cc9

Kerberos Protocol Extensions

:-D

https://www.securityweek.com/microsoft-ships-urgent-fixes-for-critical-flaws-in-windows-kerberos-hyper-v/

:-D

--
You are always busy.

Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote at 13:35 this Sunday (GMT):
> candycanearter07 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 00:20 this Saturday (GMT):
>>> On 8 Jun 2024 00:12:07 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 23:53:57 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have had accidents with rsync, too. But it’s still a wonderful tool
>>>>> that I wouldn’t want to be without.
>>>>
>>>> It was on Windows so it wasn't rsync but our support people had a
>>>> similar tool. They would edit configuration files on the server and then
>>>> copy them to all the other machines. Tough shit if another machine had
>>>> been configured differently for some reason.
>>>
>>> See, the Debian installer has a procedure for dealing with this when
>>> upgrading a package: it compares the config files being potentially
>>> overwritten with the default ones from the old package being replaced; if
>>> they match, they can be safely overwritten by the new package. Otherwise
>>> you get asked what you want to do: leave your changes in place, or
>>> overwrite them, or something else.
>>>
>>> But of course that only works for configs kept as text files, which can be
>>> easily diff’d to identify changes.
>>
>> You can still theoretically diff any binary file?
>
> A decent tool for that is vbindiff. There are some decent GUI binary differs as
> well.

Oh, thanks for the tip.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 23:56 this Saturday (GMT):
> On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 13:46:00 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:
>
>> Yep, there is pwsh for Linux, if you are a masochist...
>
> Talking about masochism ...
>
> Microsoft added “wget” and “curl” commands to PowerShell, and these
> are also included in the Linux port. Trouble is, they don’t work like
> the URL-retrieval programs of the same names as commonly found on
> Linux systems. Someone raised an issue on GitHub proposing getting rid
> of these command aliases, to avoid clashes with genuine
> implementations of these commands. But Microsoft has refused, on the
> grounds that it would break existing scripts.
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/23/your_wget_is_broken_and_should_die_powershellers_tell_microsoft/

Ah, of course. Do you think they're intentionally trying to confuse
Windows users how wget and curl are used?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom