On 2024-12-30 21:04, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-12-31 00:18, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>> On 2024-12-30 17:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2024-12-30 14:40, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>> On 2024-12-29 23:28, rbowman wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 17:06:31 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If I can use this laptop with Fedora on it until the machine
>>>>>> inevitably
>>>>>> kicks the bucket, I'll be happy. I don't like the idea of changing my
>>>>>> hardware every three, four or even five years. If I can go ten
>>>>>> with it,
>>>>>> I'll be satisfied to retire it in favour of something new from
>>>>>> Framework
>>>>>> or System76.
>>>>>
>>>>> My Fedora box is a ten year old Dell with a 4th gen i5. I did get a
>>>>> little
>>>>> snappier processor on eBay and added 8 GB or RAM and a SSD but I'm not
>>>>> planning an upgrade. The only limitation is the only PCIe slot is
>>>>> in use
>>>>> so the SSD is SATA rather than NVMe so it boots a little slower
>>>>> than the
>>>>> Ryzen 7 Ubuntu box.  Considering it's been up 41 days that is not a
>>>>> big
>>>>> deal.
>>>>
>>>> Nowadays, speed is only an issue if you're playing games or encoding
>>>> videos. Otherwise, the machines we were running even around 2010
>>>> should be more than sufficient for the majority of people and their
>>>> use of the web, social media and e-mail. Sure, it won't load as fast
>>>> as a machine from this decade, but it's not the kind of difference
>>>> as people suffered through when some were running Pentiums and
>>>> others still used a 386.
>>>
>>> Memory can be an issue, though.
>>>
>>> I had to change to another machine for two reasons. One, that 8 GiB
>>> was not enough, machine was swapping actively, and the motherboard
>>> was maxed.
>>
>> I found this to be an issue even with the new MacBook Air M1.
>> Regardless of what Apple claims, 8GB on Apple silicon is not like 16GB
>> on a PC. 8GB was great in 2010, not in 2021.
>>
>>> This is because software became memory hogs. Thunderbird, Firefox
>>> with a bunch of windows, and LO. After a week, they eat memory.
>>
>> I imagine that you never closed those programs. Do they have known
>> memory leaks?
>
> No, but they don't seem to have a proper memory cleaning strategy.
> Probably fragmentation.
>
>>
>>> The other reason is that Nvidia had stopped supporting my card, and
>>> nouveau was not up to the task. I changed to AMD video.
>>>
>>> The older machine I used for a time for guests. Works fine, its power
>>> is fine, and is over 10 year old.
>>
>> As far as I know, Nouveau has full support for NVIDIA GPUs into the
>> 8xx range. Anything after that doesn't get full support because the
>> firmware is closed. What was the card you were using?
>
> MSI N9500GT-MS1G-OC, says the cardbox.

It sounds to me like an ancient 9500GT. In this case, Nouveau would
actually be better than the NVIDIA driver in terms of power consumption
whereas the NVIDIA would be slightly better for 3D performance.
<https://www.phoronix.com/review/nouveau_comp_2011/5> Note that the
article in question is from 2011, so Nouveau on that card might have
improved tremendously since.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 2024-12-30 21:09, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 16:26:02 -0600, chrisv wrote:
>
>> It's nothing to do with wanting to "own the road". It is probably not
>> "just for status". Many just want a better vehicle to drive. BMW's
>> are, generally, better vehicles to drive.
>
> Better how? I'm not hating on BMWs in particular but 'better' is a
> nebulous concept as far as I'm concerned. Maybe it's cynicism from the
> days when Cadillacs were better than Buicks that were better than
> Oldsmobiles that were better than Pontiacs that were better than
> Chevrolets even thought it was the same damn platform. Of course if your
> Buick only had three faux portholes the neighbors knew you were either
> cheap or living above your means.

Each one of those American cars was better than the other but they were
all shit.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 2024-12-31 02:49, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
> On 12/30/24 6:54 AM, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-12-29 06:44, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024, Farley Flud wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 28 Dec 2024 23:47:29 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I agree that the GIMPs GUI can be hard to navigate
>>>>>>    and use sometimes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I cannot understand this at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> An image is opened.  The user then decides what to do with the
>>>>> image. He then uses the menu to invoke the appropriate action.
>>>>> What could be simpler?
>>>>>
>>>>> As with most GUIs, there are more than one way to invoke actions.
>>>>> Either use the menu or the many toolboxes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, if a user does not understand the rudiments of image
>>>>> processing then he will be confused and frustrated by any GUI.
>>>>
>>>> Also don't underestimate the power of habit. If you are used to
>>>> photoshop, moving to something else will be painful.
>>>>
>>>> But if you have no prior experience, it will be different.
>>>>
>>>> My father has been a happy gimp user for many years, and he is 73.
>>>> No problem with the gui. The only thing he is sensitive to is if
>>>> they make changes or move buttons around. But all software makers
>>>> enjoy doing that.
>>>
>>> My father is going to turn 80 last year and happily used Linux Mint
>>> until he deided to buy himself a new mini desktop with Windows 10 on
>>> it. If anything, he preferred Mint and asked me whether there was a
>>> way to implement some of its functionality onto the desktop like the
>>> way that it imports photos and videos from a phone. I didn't bother
>>> to install it on his new machine though.
>>
>> That's a shame. If I would be there I would gladly install mint for
>> him, to at least have one less windows machine in the world. ;)
>
>   Mint ain't perfect - but it's a huge leap over M$.
>
>   Let's HOPE the poster WILL install Mint on his dad's machine
>   and arrange it to boot first.

I wouldn't dual-boot if my dad insisted on Linux. There would be no
reason to hold onto Windows since he doesn't play games and doesn't use
any application exclusive to Windows.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 2024-12-31 05:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 30/12/2024 23:18, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>> As far as I know, Nouveau has full support for NVIDIA GPUs into the
>> 8xx range. Anything after that doesn't get full support because the
>> firmware is closed. What was the card you were using?
>
>  Ive never had a problem getting correct Nvidia drivers for the gfx cards.

That wasn't my concern. I was suggesting that if the NVIDIA drivers were
no longer supported or didn't work correctly, you could rely on Nouveau
and not lose any of the functionality. Up to the GTX 8xx range, Nouveau
does a good job. If I could use the free driver, I would but I use an
RTX3060 which only gets basic support.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 2024-12-31 06:40, D wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 30 Dec 2024, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>> On 2024-12-30 06:53, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-12-29 06:29, D wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In comp.os.linux.misc chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>>>>>> chrisv wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Farley Flud wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The Photoshop lackeys are always the instigators.  They seem
>>>>>>>>>> greatly
>>>>>>>>>> distressed by the fact that some folks do not worship their idol.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And, golly gee, the free product isn't as good as the expensive
>>>>>>>>> product.  What a "tragedy".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   LibreOffice beats the crap out of anything M$ offers
>>>>>>>>   these days.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wouldn't know.  Both are more than sufficient for my lightweight
>>>>>>> use.  Obviously I choose to use the cheaper one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I consider both way too bloated, complicated, and slow so choose
>>>>>> other simpler programs like Ted for word processing. In the same
>>>>>> way I haven't touched PhotoShop or GIMP in a very long time since
>>>>>> mtPaint does everything I want. The fact that neither has very
>>>>>> active development is a plus more than anything - when I do want
>>>>>> to try something more unusual it still works the same as it did
>>>>>> years ago when I tried it last, whereas commercial software or its
>>>>>> open-source copies will have changed everything just for the sake
>>>>>> of keeping busy and looking new.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another option to libreoffice, for the ones who do not like it is
>>>>> Abiword. Tried it briefly, it worked, but libreoffice always was
>>>>> more than enough for my needs, so I've stayed with it for business
>>>>> use for a decade or two.
>>>>
>>>> If you're never sharing documents with others and only need to
>>>> write, AbiWord would definitely be my go-to. I love that little
>>>> program.
>>>
>>> Ahh... so it doesn't save in easily exportable file formats?
>>
>> I just checked and noticed that it saves in PDF, ODT and DOCX in
>> addition to its own format. However, when I opened a few ODT documents
>> to see how it would handle them, I notice that it failed with the one
>> which included a simple table. I notice that it can produce its own,
>> but I can't fathom why it didn't display it properly here.
>
> Odt and docx are not trivial file formats. You must remember that
> Microsoft has tried its best to make docx impenetrable to outsiders. Odt
> I think also has suffered from trying to be compatible with Ms
> excrement. As a small project I am not surprised that it might have a
> few bugs here and there when opening those formats.

I would bet that it is AbiWord that is the issue, not any kind of bug
with ODT. If AbiWord couldn't handle DOCX though, I would blame the
format since it is closed despite its name.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>On 31/12/2024 11:54, chrisv wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not disputing whether BMWs are better vehicles, whether to drive
>>> or for some other reason. What I do notice is that many people who
>>> drive BMWs feel that the car confers some sort of superior class on
>>> the driver, and they feel it is the God-given duty for us plebes who
>>> drive lesser cars to get out of their way - to the point of making
>>> exasperated hand gestures at those of us who don't.
>>
>> Again, I've never noticed any such thing.
>>
> Many drivers are not given to noticing anything around them.

I'm not one of them.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>> Hmm... While I concede that some BMW car owners buy them for "the
>> wrong reasons" (i.e. prestige), I think that bike riders are more
>> practical and grounded.
>
>Depends on the milieu - plenty of menopausal men cranking up their
>beemer bikes to try and impress someone.

Funny, I've not noticed that.

Harleys, on the other hand...

On 2024-12-31 11:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 30/12/2024 20:49, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> I try to spread the rumour that before you are allowed to purchase
>> a BMW, you must sign a letter of undertaking in which you promise
>> to drive like an asshole at any opportunity.
>
> It is in fact worse than that...
>
> http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20and%20Politics/bmw-drive-like-an-
> asshole-congratulations-on-your-purchase-now-you-have-to-watch-our-
> mandatory-instructional-video.jpg

I'm curious. What country are you talking about?

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-12-31 07:04, chrisv wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> HP EliteDesk 800 G2 SFF Quad Core i5-6500 is what it says it is
>
> Ha! I recently bought two of these for work. Only $150 each with 16G
> RAM and an SSD and legal Win10 Pro. Really a steal, if you don't need
> the Win11 HW requirements.
>
>> Its about 5 years old now. There are tons of this class of machine going
>> for peanuts everywhere. They were sold to small businesses as office
>> machines. In fact its the cheapest way to buy that processor!

I'll bet that they run any distribution out there just fine and allow
you to do just as much as a new computer running Windows 11.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 12/30/24 5:18 PM, chrisv wrote:
> lying asshole -hh wrote:
>
>> (garbage snipped)
>
> Gosh, not one quote of advocate "haters" being "loudly critical" of
> Photoshop.

Liar. That's why you snipped your own quoted words.

> Only quotes of advocates making reasonable points about> value, ...

Spin attempt detected. Unfortunately, the only way that this point
actually becomes "reasonable" is by finally admitting that many/most
Linux fanboys are chronic consummate cheapskates.

> and one example of an advocate (sdb) who arbitrarity assigned a
> one cent cost to GIMP. Why does -highhorse think that his snittish
> attack is valid because of one brain-fart? Why does -highhorse feel
> the need to lie about me "trying to forget" that brain-fart, which I
> called-out at the time? You don't see trolls calling each other out,
> when they say something stupid.

To which chrisv now tries to spin a tale of "one brain-fart" to explain
his prior statement ... but that dodge attempt was anticipated: its why
there were two chrisv quotes provided, not just one.

> Why doesn't -highhorse quote me saying that Photoshop is a powerful
> tool for professionals and serious amateurs?

Why doesn't chrisv actually substantiate that he made that claim?
Go post the Google Groups URL link to validate your claim or crawl away.

> What an asshole.
>
> Meanwhile, I have quotes that directly show -highhorse *lying* to
> attack, like his snittish assertion that any advocate would "globally
> reject" Photoshop "for all possible consumers".

Oh, there's no doubt that that's what you *believe* was being said, but
you believing stuff doesn't mean that it actually was what was actually
being said. Another such example was in how you protested so strongly
against Barry Schwartz's "Paradox of Choice" research: he's got a PhD
and a TED talk, but we're supposed to believe that _you_ know better!

Translation: chrisv Pwned. Again.
And going out the year with another bushel of butthurt.

-hh

On 12/31/24 7:02 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 31/12/2024 11:54, chrisv wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not disputing whether BMWs are better vehicles, whether to drive
>>> or for some other reason.  What I do notice is that many people who
>>> drive BMWs feel that the car confers some sort of superior class on
>>> the driver, and they feel it is the God-given duty for us plebes who
>>> drive lesser cars to get out of their way - to the point of making
>>> exasperated hand gestures at those of us who don't.
>>
>> Again, I've never noticed any such thing.
>
> Many drivers are not given to noticing anything around them.

Its also challenging to see the transgressions from inside the BMW. /s

-hh

On 31/12/2024 12:04, chrisv wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> HP EliteDesk 800 G2 SFF Quad Core i5-6500 is what it says it is
>
> Ha! I recently bought two of these for work. Only $150 each with 16G
> RAM and an SSD and legal Win10 Pro. Really a steal, if you don't need
> the Win11 HW requirements.

I've seen em as low as £75.

It really is more than good enough for my needs

I think they were sold in millions in 2015 -2016 and are all now 'fully
depreciated' and being sold as scrap, minus the HDDs which get crushed.

Totally recommended to anyone as a cheap reliable vanilla Linux desktop.
They just work.

--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

On 31/12/2024 14:00, chrisv wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 31/12/2024 11:54, chrisv wrote:
>>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not disputing whether BMWs are better vehicles, whether to drive
>>>> or for some other reason. What I do notice is that many people who
>>>> drive BMWs feel that the car confers some sort of superior class on
>>>> the driver, and they feel it is the God-given duty for us plebes who
>>>> drive lesser cars to get out of their way - to the point of making
>>>> exasperated hand gestures at those of us who don't.
>>>
>>> Again, I've never noticed any such thing.
>>>
>> Many drivers are not given to noticing anything around them.
>
> I'm not one of them.
>
I rather think you are.

--
There’s a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 10:54:07 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> I too had to increase from 8GB mostly because massive loads of shit
> written in python are memory gobblers.

Could be worse. Could have been Java.

On 2024-12-31 12:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 31/12/2024 02:04, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>
>>> I imagine that you never closed those programs. Do they have known
>>> memory leaks?
>>
>> No, but they don't seem to have a proper memory cleaning strategy.
>> Probably fragmentation.
>>
> Firefox itself doesn't have memory leaks, but its perfectly possible to
> write crap javaScript that does.

You are right.

>
> I periodically close my windows and start again.

I noticed a big improvement when I placed swap on an SSD.

I noticed that the hard disk was working hard, guessing that the memory
chunks were fragmented. A lot of head movement. I guessed that an SSD
would improve things, and yea, it did, a lot.

Of course, the rest of the system is on SSD as well.

>
>>>
>>>> The other reason is that Nvidia had stopped supporting my card, and
>>>> nouveau was not up to the task. I changed to AMD video.
>>>>
>>>> The older machine I used for a time for guests. Works fine, its
>>>> power is fine, and is over 10 year old.
>>>
>>> As far as I know, Nouveau has full support for NVIDIA GPUs into the
>>> 8xx range. Anything after that doesn't get full support because the
>>> firmware is closed. What was the card you were using?
>>
>> MSI N9500GT-MS1G-OC, says the cardbox.
>>
> There is a December 2024 release of drivers for this card.
>
> https://www.nvidia.com/en-in/drivers/details/237926/
>
> Driver Version:     550.142
> Release Date:     Tue Dec 17, 2024
> Operating System:     Linux 64-bit
> Language:     English (India)
> File Size:     307.3 MB

Well, too late for this machine. It is now in storage. I used it for
guests I had, using nouveau, and then it is simply stored.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 07:13:36 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> I had a Yaris (the original bottle-nosed one), 5-speed manual, two-door,
> no power windows. It could zip around an off-ramp!

I've had 3, a 2007, 2011, and the current 2018 which was the end of the
line. Even that year the sedan version was a rebranded Mazda 2.

When I got stopped the cop came up on the passenger side. When I reached
across to wind the window down he said "I didn't know they made cars with
manual windows anymore."

The best one was the 2007 with the manual. I played games with a Mini
Cooper on Route 1 down through Big Sur. Miraculously there was no traffic
to impeded us. A couple of tourists might have jumped off the scenic
overlook when the two Matchbox toys screamed by.

The 4 speed AT gets the job done but I really prefer a manual. I bought
the 2011 when Japan was having a little nuclear problem so I took what I
could get. The 2018 was a leftover in 2020 so again I took what was there.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 05:58:25 -0600, chrisv wrote:

> rbowman wrote:
>
>> chrisv wrote:
>>
>>> It's nothing to do with wanting to "own the road". It is probably not
>>> "just for status". Many just want a better vehicle to drive. BMW's
>>> are, generally, better vehicles to drive.
>>
>>Better how?
>
> Better handling, or betterride/handling compromise, or better
> acceleration and braking. Nicer interior.
>
> I'm not saying they always succeed, but these are the ideas. There's a
> reason why they cost more. It's not just "spend more money and you get
> this badge".

Better home entertainment system. That seems to be what the reviewers are
interested in these days.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 08:34:18 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> On 2024-12-30 21:09, rbowman wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 16:26:02 -0600, chrisv wrote:
>>
>>> It's nothing to do with wanting to "own the road". It is probably not
>>> "just for status". Many just want a better vehicle to drive. BMW's
>>> are, generally, better vehicles to drive.
>>
>> Better how? I'm not hating on BMWs in particular but 'better' is a
>> nebulous concept as far as I'm concerned. Maybe it's cynicism from the
>> days when Cadillacs were better than Buicks that were better than
>> Oldsmobiles that were better than Pontiacs that were better than
>> Chevrolets even thought it was the same damn platform. Of course if
>> your Buick only had three faux portholes the neighbors knew you were
>> either cheap or living above your means.
>
> Each one of those American cars was better than the other but they were
> all shit.

Again, what is better? The president of a company I worked for bought a
Cadillac Cimarron when they tried to build a European style luxury sedan.
It was a piece of crap. The final straw was when his secretary bought a
Pontiac. He parked next to it and realized it was the same car.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 08:06:54 -0600, chrisv wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>> Hmm... While I concede that some BMW car owners buy them for "the
>>> wrong reasons" (i.e. prestige), I think that bike riders are more
>>> practical and grounded.
>>
>>Depends on the milieu - plenty of menopausal men cranking up their
>>beemer bikes to try and impress someone.
>
> Funny, I've not noticed that.
>
> Harleys, on the other hand...

When the BMW owners group came to town on their tour they were a bigger
PITA than when the Angels came here on vacation. Lawyers and doctors on
bikes bring their attitudes with them.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 11:05:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Audis are designed to go round corners blisteringly fast, but their
> drivers are not...

The Audi was the first FWD car I owned and I almost killed myself figuring
out how to drive it. No fault of the car but the national 55 mph speed
limit was imposed and the car wasn't geared to do 55 except as a brief
interval on its way to a cruising speed.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 05:53:34 -0600, chrisv wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>BMWs are, like Jaguars, designed to be fast and go round corners as
>>well.
>>Mercedes are fast, but don't go round corners. Which is why they do well
>>in the USA. There are no real corners.
>>
>>Audis are designed to go round corners blisteringly fast, but their
>>drivers are not...
>
> All utter nonsense.

Yeah, I'd like to introduced the Olde Philosopher to corners. The section
lines don't always line up nicely here so there are some 90 degree turns
along with the normal curves when you're working your way around a
mountain.

I'm sort of cruel and have had 35 years of practice navigating a couple of
curves so I'll lure in tailgaters.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 03:33:25 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> A Corolla is probably BEST car to own these days. Reliable, not TOO
> big, not TOO complicated. Turn the key and GO.

It's got too many doors. I'm not a Uber driver.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 13:27:04 +0100, D wrote:

> Have you tried one of these?

https://morgan-motor.com/models/past-models/3-wheeler/

If you really want to stand out.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 11:01:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Firefox itself doesn't have memory leaks, but its perfectly possible to
> write crap javaScript that does.

17.3 147:19.74 Privileged Cont

I think that may be associated with Firefox. It is the largest user of
memory by far. Next in the list is 3.7% Isolated Web Co.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 05:11:09 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> I'm not disputing whether BMWs are better vehicles, whether to drive or
> for some other reason. What I do notice is that many people who drive
> BMWs feel that the car confers some sort of superior class on the
> driver, and they feel it is the God-given duty for us plebes who drive
> lesser cars to get out of their way - to the point of making exasperated
> hand gestures at those of us who don't.

When I was trucking I was amused by BMW drivers who tried to play chicken
with a 65' long 18 wheeled vehicle outweighing them by about 75,000
pounds.