On 2024-12-29 16:06, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>
>>>> I've recently replaced a 2017 laptop, which in its seven
>>>> years of use only had $135 in MS software purchases: that's <$2/month.
>>>> Its replacement's initial software was $100 (MS Office 2024), which
>>>> should be good for four years and be similarly cost just ~$2/month.
>>>>
>>>> If I optionally choose to add photo editing, a new license for Adobe
>>>> Photoshop Elements is currently $70 for 3 years, which is ~$2/month.
>>>
>>> Sure, but that doesn't address increasing demands on hardware.
>>
>> Oh, so *one* software upgrade over 7 years is suddenly now going to be
>> some undue 'hardware demand'? Not even for MS-Office it isn't.
>
>
> I had the ideal computer, to upgrade to Windows 11, in 2021. Freshly
> built with Win10, SSD storage, blah blah, but 23H2 was already feeling
> overweight. Hence running Linux till this thing dies.

Even with the traditionally-heavy KDE, my computer runs lighter than it
did with Windows 11 24H2. Not only does it boot faster and use less RAM
(3.4GB as we speak), there is much less storage activity and typing
feels a lot more responsive. The best part is that every one of the
things that tended not to work for me in the past works perfectly under
Fedora 41.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41

On 2024-12-29 22:05, rbowman wrote:
> On 29 Dec 2024 19:44:19 GMT, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>
>> On 29 Dec 2024 00:53:43 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> Is that progress? Beat's me. I was at a museum that had a display of
>>> the development of household labor saving devices. It noted that when
>>> housewives received all these new time savers they tended to find new
>>> things to spend the saved time on.
>>
>> Including ridiculous standards for "clean".
>
> The need to instantly refrigerate everything is the one that gets me. For
> one reason or the other I've had periods without a refrigerator. A dozen
> eggs sitting on the counter won't hatch or go bad for a week or two.

If you wash the eggs you have to refrigerate them; otherwise, ambient
temperature is just fine (for a shorter time than refrigerated, of course).

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-12-29 21:41, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>
>> Amazing that none of you has mentioned latex.
>
> This isn't that kind of group!

Latex is software :-P

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:

>> I had the ideal computer, to upgrade to Windows 11, in 2021. Freshly
>> built with Win10, SSD storage, blah blah, but 23H2 was already feeling
>> overweight. Hence running Linux till this thing dies.
>
>Even with the traditionally-heavy KDE, my computer runs lighter than it
>did with Windows 11 24H2. Not only does it boot faster and use less RAM
>(3.4GB as we speak), there is much less storage activity and typing
>feels a lot more responsive. The best part is that every one of the
>things that tended not to work for me in the past works perfectly under
>Fedora 41.

Yup, I'm using Cinnamon under Debian 12, it's bloated by Larry's
standards but nothing like M$.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 13:16:57 -0500, -hh wrote:

> If I optionally choose to add photo editing, a new license for Adobe
> Photoshop Elements is currently $70 for 3 years, which is ~$2/month.

And you have to keep paying for the rest of your life just to retain
control over your own work.

On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 21:17:16 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> Amazing that none of you has mentioned latex.

The few times I tried to get started with TEX or LATEX, I kept getting
baffled by screeds of mysterious error/warning messages.

Then I tried writing man pages with groff and some standard macros. Now I
can get nice typeset-quality PDF output from the same source, and I can
actually understand what I’m doing.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 13:16:57 -0500, -hh wrote:
>
>> If I optionally choose to add photo editing, a new license for Adobe
>> Photoshop Elements is currently $70 for 3 years, which is ~$2/month.
>
>And you have to keep paying for the rest of your life just to retain
>control over your own work.

I can live without Adobe, yeah. I gave Photoshop a chance. It's not
terrible, but it's bloatware like Wintendo itself, Linux and GIMP are
not as rich with GUI-centric "features" perhaps, but they are what I
feel comfortable running on my precious hardware.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 12/29/24 5:55 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 13:16:57 -0500, -hh wrote:
>
>> If I optionally choose to add photo editing, a new license for Adobe
>> Photoshop Elements is currently $70 for 3 years, which is ~$2/month.
>
> And you have to keep paying for the rest of your life just to retain
> control over your own work.

That's only true if no non-Adobe apps can open Adobe's .psd file format
and you've also not bothered to save works as other-than-psd's.

Presently, that's false on just the first part alone without the second,
as I'm aware of at least four (4) non-Adobe Apps which open .psd files,
namely GIMP, Darktable, Luminar, and MacOS's Preview.

-hh

On 12/29/24 3:17 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-12-29 07:58, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 01:43:11 +0000, Ant wrote:
>>
>>> What do you use to edit/create documents and spreadsheets with others?
>>
>> I don't. Anything I create is done with Vim. For external use we have
>> tech
>> writers that make it pretty. My attempts to edit RFPs with LibreOffice
>> don't work well, so I either use Vim and reference the sections or print
>> relevant pages and use a pen.
>
> Amazing that none of you has mentioned latex. You can edit documents
> with vi.

Good point. I have friends who used to use latex quite a bit for large
documents with interesting formatting needs.

There also was Encapsulated Postscript (EPS) too...I don't know much
more about it, other than MS dropped support of it after Word 5.

-hh

On 2024-12-29 17:39, Joel wrote:
> Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>
>>> I had the ideal computer, to upgrade to Windows 11, in 2021. Freshly
>>> built with Win10, SSD storage, blah blah, but 23H2 was already feeling
>>> overweight. Hence running Linux till this thing dies.
>>
>> Even with the traditionally-heavy KDE, my computer runs lighter than it
>> did with Windows 11 24H2. Not only does it boot faster and use less RAM
>> (3.4GB as we speak), there is much less storage activity and typing
>> feels a lot more responsive. The best part is that every one of the
>> things that tended not to work for me in the past works perfectly under
>> Fedora 41.
>
>
> Yup, I'm using Cinnamon under Debian 12, it's bloated by Larry's
> standards but nothing like M$.

Larry doesn't like bloat because he has to stare at his fat ass every day.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41

On 12/29/24 4:00 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 29 Dec 2024 16:39:41 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
>> And of course I still get the occasional .doc[x] attachment from
>> someone who only *needs* a note-taking program, but only *has* (or knows
>> how to use) Word. Luckily my current Windows 11 seems to grok such
>> files, at least I didn't have to install LibreOffice since I got it,
>> over two years ago. Knock on wood.
>
> That's my annoyance with Excel. Any xls document I've ever gotten was a
> freeform notepad with handy rows. I can't recall ever getting a xls where
> there were any manipulations on the cells. When all you know how to use is
> a hammer...

That's a very common 'organizer' use case.

I have some analytically based Excel stuff; it can get involved to build
in certain types of logic (like "last entry" instead of "MAX"). Ditto
for cell formatting which doesn't break from "divide by [no data]". I
don't know how many cells it is, but a couple are over 1MB in size,
including one with 21 tabs plus links to pull in data from other
spreadsheets.

I have a colleague who's done some amazing stuff in Excel using Visual
Basic Script (VBS); the PC I had at the time would fail just trying to
load the files; his beefy machine he had would take literally hours to
crunch through a set. A quick search shows that I still have an older
copy: it takes up 14.34GB on disk. Youch.

-hh

Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:

>>>> I had the ideal computer, to upgrade to Windows 11, in 2021. Freshly
>>>> built with Win10, SSD storage, blah blah, but 23H2 was already feeling
>>>> overweight. Hence running Linux till this thing dies.
>>>
>>> Even with the traditionally-heavy KDE, my computer runs lighter than it
>>> did with Windows 11 24H2. Not only does it boot faster and use less RAM
>>> (3.4GB as we speak), there is much less storage activity and typing
>>> feels a lot more responsive. The best part is that every one of the
>>> things that tended not to work for me in the past works perfectly under
>>> Fedora 41.
>>
>> Yup, I'm using Cinnamon under Debian 12, it's bloated by Larry's
>> standards but nothing like M$.
>
>Larry doesn't like bloat because he has to stare at his fat ass every day.

I just cannot understand his perspective in the slightest way - he's
using a Xeon chip with a hard drive, running a barebones setup of
Linux that has no modern Web browser, it's just as bizarre as could
be.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-12-29 19:10, Joel wrote:
> Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>
>>>>> I had the ideal computer, to upgrade to Windows 11, in 2021. Freshly
>>>>> built with Win10, SSD storage, blah blah, but 23H2 was already feeling
>>>>> overweight. Hence running Linux till this thing dies.
>>>>
>>>> Even with the traditionally-heavy KDE, my computer runs lighter than it
>>>> did with Windows 11 24H2. Not only does it boot faster and use less RAM
>>>> (3.4GB as we speak), there is much less storage activity and typing
>>>> feels a lot more responsive. The best part is that every one of the
>>>> things that tended not to work for me in the past works perfectly under
>>>> Fedora 41.
>>>
>>> Yup, I'm using Cinnamon under Debian 12, it's bloated by Larry's
>>> standards but nothing like M$.
>>
>> Larry doesn't like bloat because he has to stare at his fat ass every day.
>
>
> I just cannot understand his perspective in the slightest way - he's
> using a Xeon chip with a hard drive, running a barebones setup of
> Linux that has no modern Web browser, it's just as bizarre as could
> be.

He's a failure and quite aware of it. Rather than improve himself in any
way, he prefers to delude himself about how successful he is. He can't
afford better than the garbage he boasts about.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41

On 12/29/2024 5:02 PM, Joel wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 13:16:57 -0500, -hh wrote:
>>
>>> If I optionally choose to add photo editing, a new license for Adobe
>>> Photoshop Elements is currently $70 for 3 years, which is ~$2/month.
>>
>> And you have to keep paying for the rest of your life just to retain
>> control over your own work.
>
>
> I can live without Adobe, yeah. I gave Photoshop a chance. It's not
> terrible, but it's bloatware like Wintendo itself, Linux and GIMP are
> not as rich with GUI-centric "features" perhaps, but they are what I
> feel comfortable running on my precious hardware.

"Precious hardware"

That's funny

--
I Stand With Israel!

On 2024-12-29 19:35, sticks wrote:
> On 12/29/2024 5:02 PM, Joel wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 13:16:57 -0500, -hh wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I optionally choose to add photo editing, a new license for Adobe
>>>> Photoshop Elements is currently $70 for 3 years, which is ~$2/month.
>>>
>>> And you have to keep paying for the rest of your life just to retain
>>> control over your own work.
>>
>>
>> I can live without Adobe, yeah.  I gave Photoshop a chance.  It's not
>> terrible, but it's bloatware like Wintendo itself, Linux and GIMP are
>> not as rich with GUI-centric "features" perhaps, but they are what I
>> feel comfortable running on my precious hardware.
>
> "Precious hardware"
>
> That's funny

It's funny to an extent, but part of why I get attached to free software
is the sympathy I feel to people who simply can't afford to buy new
hardware all the time. Had I not been clever in my adolescent years, I
wouldn't have had the income to upgrade my hardware the few times that I
did because money was lacking. At that time, I would have overjoyed to
learn that I could at least procure the software at no charge and
without breaking any laws, and that it would run fine on my modest
setup. I am also faced with poor kids on a daily basis. It warms my
heart to know that my knowledge of open-source software is going to
allow them to use software much like the kids in wealthier
neighbourhoods, even on the computers their parents received as a
hand-me-down or got from goodwill. Linux makes that a possibility,
Windows and MacOS do not. Additionally, the amount of compromises people
have to make to use Linux today are not as overwhelming as they once
were. If anything, the experience is often superior.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
>On 12/29/2024 5:02 PM, Joel wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 13:16:57 -0500, -hh wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I optionally choose to add photo editing, a new license for Adobe
>>>> Photoshop Elements is currently $70 for 3 years, which is ~$2/month.
>>>
>>> And you have to keep paying for the rest of your life just to retain
>>> control over your own work.
>>
>> I can live without Adobe, yeah. I gave Photoshop a chance. It's not
>> terrible, but it's bloatware like Wintendo itself, Linux and GIMP are
>> not as rich with GUI-centric "features" perhaps, but they are what I
>> feel comfortable running on my precious hardware.
>
>"Precious hardware"
>
>That's funny

It's my baby, yes, I have an emotional attachment to my computer, I
assembled it. M$ crapware, other than such for Linux, can step off.

>--
>I Stand With Israel!

"That's funny."

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-12-30 00:50, -hh wrote:
> On 12/29/24 3:17 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2024-12-29 07:58, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 01:43:11 +0000, Ant wrote:
>>>
>>>> What do you use to edit/create documents and spreadsheets with others?
>>>
>>> I don't. Anything I create is done with Vim. For external use we have
>>> tech
>>> writers that make it pretty. My attempts to edit RFPs with LibreOffice
>>> don't work well, so I either use Vim and reference the sections or print
>>> relevant pages and use a pen.
>>
>> Amazing that none of you has mentioned latex. You can edit documents
>> with vi.
>
> Good point.  I have friends who used to use latex quite a bit for large
> documents with interesting formatting needs.
>
> There also was Encapsulated Postscript (EPS) too...I don't know much
> more about it, other than MS dropped support of it after Word 5.

Me, I am aware of Latex, but I prefer LyX myself.

I have seen an engineer produce production ready math papers and complex
formulas using Latex in Windows. Some process going from the Latex file
to the PDF output, marking the same word on both sides.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 12/29/2024 6:51 PM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>
>> "Precious hardware"
>>
>> That's funny
>
> It's funny to an extent,

---snip---

No. It's funny because it's fucking stupid.
My new puppy is precious. My computers are just fucking machines.

--
I Stand With Israel!

On 12/29/2024 6:55 PM, Joel wrote:
>> "Precious hardware"
>>
>> That's funny
>
> It's my baby, yes, I have an emotional attachment to my computer, I
> assembled it. M$ crapware, other than such for Linux, can step off.

Fine, you obviously have some emotional issues. I don't really give a
shit what you call or how you feel attached to your computer. Have at
it weirdo. I'm still laffing at you.

>> --
>> I Stand With Israel!
>
> "That's funny."

Now that you Linux guys have completely taken a shit on the win11 group,
you're now stooping to commenting on sig files. I manage to only use 4
words to get my point across. You on the other hand have written a
short essay for yours. Kinda fits your character.

FWIW, I got no problem with the way the normal people talk about Linux
here. One of our favorites in this group regularly uses it for things
and shares his experiences. He even manages to point out the flaws and
problems with the various microsoft operating systems. Everybody
appreciates the education a handful of people in these groups give us.

What they don't do is rave on an on about how horrible microsoft is at
every chance they get and advocate Linux above all else in a fucking
windows newsgroup. We're here to learn about Windows 11 and if Linux
can be of use in sorting things out great. But you can take your Linux
pom poms and wear yourself out in your advocacy group. It's just
getting a little old around here IMO. Other than that....Fuck Off!

--
I Stand With Israel!

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

>>> "Precious hardware"
>>>
>>> That's funny
>>
>> It's my baby, yes, I have an emotional attachment to my computer, I
>> assembled it. M$ crapware, other than such for Linux, can step off.
>
>Fine, you obviously have some emotional issues. I don't really give a
>shit what you call or how you feel attached to your computer. Have at
>it weirdo. I'm still laffing at you.
>
>>> --
>>> I Stand With Israel!
>>
>> "That's funny."
>
>Now that you Linux guys have completely taken a shit on the win11 group,
>you're now stooping to commenting on sig files. I manage to only use 4
>words to get my point across. You on the other hand have written a
>short essay for yours. Kinda fits your character.
>
>FWIW, I got no problem with the way the normal people talk about Linux
>here. One of our favorites in this group regularly uses it for things
>and shares his experiences. He even manages to point out the flaws and
>problems with the various microsoft operating systems. Everybody
>appreciates the education a handful of people in these groups give us.
>
>What they don't do is rave on an on about how horrible microsoft is at
>every chance they get and advocate Linux above all else in a fucking
>windows newsgroup. We're here to learn about Windows 11 and if Linux
>can be of use in sorting things out great. But you can take your Linux
>pom poms and wear yourself out in your advocacy group. It's just
>getting a little old around here IMO. Other than that....Fuck Off!

"You obviously have some emotional issues."

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 12/29/2024 9:00 PM, sticks wrote:
> On 12/29/2024 6:51 PM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>
>>> "Precious hardware"
>>>
>>> That's funny
>>
>> It's funny to an extent,
>
> ---snip---
>
> No.  It's funny because it's fucking stupid.
> My new puppy is precious.  My computers are just fucking machines.
>
If you don't treat them kindly how to you get them to work for you. I
thank my computer, frequently especially after trying to do something
and the computer finally realizes what I want and does it.

On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 20:00:43 -0600, sticks wrote:

> On 12/29/2024 6:51 PM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>
>>> "Precious hardware"
>>>
>>> That's funny
>>
>> It's funny to an extent,
>
> ---snip---
>
> No. It's funny because it's fucking stupid.
> My new puppy is precious. My computers are just fucking machines.

That brought back horrible memories. A friend's wife referred to the mutt
as precious puppy. I think it was an Airedale or something up that line.
It ate her pantyhose which led to her chasing it around the yard trying to
step on its new nylon tail being extruded from its butt.

Even sadder, she had a cat that was precious kitty that was exiled to the
basement when they got precious puppy. My wife and I had a bet on whether
the dog would wind up in the cellar with the cat when she popped out a
precious baby.

On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 23:14:48 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> On 2024-12-29 22:05, rbowman wrote:
>> On 29 Dec 2024 19:44:19 GMT, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 Dec 2024 00:53:43 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> Is that progress? Beat's me. I was at a museum that had a display of
>>>> the development of household labor saving devices. It noted that when
>>>> housewives received all these new time savers they tended to find new
>>>> things to spend the saved time on.
>>>
>>> Including ridiculous standards for "clean".
>>
>> The need to instantly refrigerate everything is the one that gets me.
>> For one reason or the other I've had periods without a refrigerator. A
>> dozen eggs sitting on the counter won't hatch or go bad for a week or
>> two.
>
> If you wash the eggs you have to refrigerate them; otherwise, ambient
> temperature is just fine (for a shorter time than refrigerated, of
> course).

afaik, all commercial eggs in the US are washed during the grading
process. I haven't had a problem although I do refrigerate them when home.

On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 19:08:00 -0500, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:

>I have a colleague who's done some amazing stuff in Excel using Visual
>Basic Script (VBS); the PC I had at the time would fail just trying to
>load the files; his beefy machine he had would take literally hours to
>crunch through a set. A quick search shows that I still have an older
>copy: it takes up 14.34GB on disk. Youch.

I assume you meant to say VBA, Visual Basic for Applications, which is built
into each of the major MS Office applications?

On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 18:46:59 -0500, -hh wrote:

> On 12/29/24 5:55 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 13:16:57 -0500, -hh wrote:
>>
>>> If I optionally choose to add photo editing, a new license for Adobe
>>> Photoshop Elements is currently $70 for 3 years, which is ~$2/month.
>>
>> And you have to keep paying for the rest of your life just to retain
>> control over your own work.
>
> That's only true if no non-Adobe apps can open Adobe's .psd file
> format ...

And assuming that Adobe doesn’t keep making tweaks to its proprietary
format precisely to sabotage other apps’ ability to open the files
correctly.