On Sat, 28 Dec 2024 20:52:53 -0500, Joel wrote:

> ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>
>>I have been using word processors since I was in elementary with Apple
>>2's AppleWorks.
>
>
> I used it to write my second-semester college-English research paper,
> in 1996, because the Winblows computer was shared among the family, and
> I could set up the Apple //e in my room.

The computer I used in college, an IBM 360/30, didn't have much in the way
of word processing software :)

On 2024-12-29 01:38, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Dec 2024 21:26:49 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>> The only thing I've ever used Office for is essays and the occasional
>> presentation. I've said it before: even AbiWord is more than enough for
>> me. If I recall correctly, AbiWord had every feature I needed to write
>> university essays and I actually became quite loyal to the program
>> because it bailed me out when I had no other program to write with. It's
>> pretty useless for the advanced Office files we all receive from others,
>> but it's spectacular with any new document you might want to produce.
>> The bonus is that it's fast as heck in 2024. Hell, it was fast and light
>> as heck even in 2002 or whatever year it was.
>
> Essays in my school days generally involve a pen and 'blue book' for exams
> or a cheap manual typewriter in some cases. The first word processor I was
> exposed to was WordStar that was bundled on a CP/M system, over ten years
> later. It was serviceable as a programming editor. Vim was in the future
> and vi, prior to improvement, was primitive.
>
> In later years any documentation I did was with Vim. The process was we
> would try to dig up a past document that was sort of like the new
> interface. I'd make notes on it, the tech writer would make it pretty, I
> would review it, rinse and repeat. Over time I became convinced the
> clients seldom read the final product anyway.

I remember being in high school and talking about the latest 486 and
dual-speed CD-ROM when my English teacher came up to me and asked me
what was so exciting about that. He told me he was using some ancient
technology (I don't remember which) and mentioned that the exam we just
did was prepared on that. I was actually surprised to hear that because
I recalled that printers in the 1980s other than PC ones were usually
tiny daisy wheel ones. Either way, if that guy is still alive, I imagine
he'd make a perfect Linux user because of his reluctance to change his
equipment to follow trends.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch

Andrzej Matuch wrote:

[snip]

> I was actually surprised to hear that because
> I recalled that printers in the 1980s other than PC ones were usually
> tiny daisy wheel ones.

I had a daisy wheel printer. Massive thing, beautifully made, with a
chrome steel frame; used tractor feed paper, and produced very nice
printed output. But is was as noisy as a machine gun! So I installed
it in the front porch - which we never used anyway - and drilled a hole
through the wall for power and the RS232 data cable.

I gave it away when I wanted something which would cope with simple
graphics so got a dot-matrix printer - which was a bit quieter.

--
Graham J

On 2024-12-29 08:19, Graham J wrote:
> Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> I was actually surprised to hear that because I recalled that printers
>> in the 1980s other than PC ones were usually tiny daisy wheel ones.
>
> I had a daisy wheel printer.  Massive thing, beautifully made, with a
> chrome steel frame; used tractor feed paper, and produced very nice
> printed output.  But is was as noisy as a machine gun!  So I installed
> it in the front porch - which we never used anyway - and drilled a hole
> through the wall for power and the RS232 data cable.
>
> I gave it away when I wanted something which would cope with simple
> graphics so got a dot-matrix printer - which was a bit quieter.

The first printer I owned was a 24-pin printer I got with my IBM PS/1.
It was probably a lot quieter than what you used but still too
annoyingly loud for my taste. I quite enjoyed how quiet inkjet was (even
though I hated how frequently you had to get more ink) and then the
laser printer.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch

Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> Graham J wrote:
>>
>> I had a daisy wheel printer.  Massive thing, beautifully made, with a
>> chrome steel frame; used tractor feed paper, and produced very nice
>> printed output.  But is was as noisy as a machine gun!  So I installed
>> it in the front porch - which we never used anyway - and drilled a hole
>> through the wall for power and the RS232 data cable.

That's awesome. 8)
>> I gave it away when I wanted something which would cope with simple
>> graphics so got a dot-matrix printer - which was a bit quieter.
>
>The first printer I owned was a 24-pin printer I got with my IBM PS/1.
>It was probably a lot quieter than what you used but still too
>annoyingly loud for my taste.

Mine was an Epson JX-80. It had only 9 pins, but it had a
near-letter-quality mode and also color!

--
"there are too many choices in some categories of computer hardware"
- some dumb fsck, putting his ignorance on display

On 2024-12-29 09:02, chrisv wrote:
> Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>> Graham J wrote:
>>>
>>> I had a daisy wheel printer.  Massive thing, beautifully made, with a
>>> chrome steel frame; used tractor feed paper, and produced very nice
>>> printed output.  But is was as noisy as a machine gun!  So I installed
>>> it in the front porch - which we never used anyway - and drilled a hole
>>> through the wall for power and the RS232 data cable.
>
> That's awesome. 8)
>
>>> I gave it away when I wanted something which would cope with simple
>>> graphics so got a dot-matrix printer - which was a bit quieter.
>>
>> The first printer I owned was a 24-pin printer I got with my IBM PS/1.
>> It was probably a lot quieter than what you used but still too
>> annoyingly loud for my taste.
>
> Mine was an Epson JX-80. It had only 9 pins, but it had a
> near-letter-quality mode and also color!

And I will bet that the toner cartridge (or whatever it is called)
lasted forever. I never printed enough to figure out how long it lasts
and eventually sold that printer for a measly $105 or so. I'm sure it
was worth a lot more though.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch

On Sat, 28 Dec 2024 15:07:39 -0500, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch>
wrote:

>On 2024-12-28 14:34, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Dec 2024 07:04:57 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 27 Dec 2024 22:23:49 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 26/12/2024 4:39 am, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As a programmer, I like to use powerful and versatile tools. That
>>>>> includes the ability to automate workflow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tools exist for this purpose, like odfpy for ISO 26300 files, which
>>>>> are the native format of LibreOffice. And LibreOffice itself can run
>>>>> Python code.
>>>>
>>>> My programming tasks has never ever needed to automate Office using
>>>> VBA.
>>>
>>> So your needs are fairly simple. That’s nothing to be ashamed of.
>>
>> You do realize there is a whole world outside of Office?
>
>Yeah, it sometimes pains me that it is brought up as often as it is as
>some sort of must-have piece of software. It suggests that people don't
>do much other than open up Word and Excel.

Not must-have to me. I never open Word (I greatly prefer WordPerfect)
and open Excel very rarely.

Ant <ant@zimage.comant> wrote:
[...]
> In alt.comp.os.windows-11 rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 28 Dec 2024 15:07:39 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
> > > Yeah, it sometimes pains me that it is brought up as often as it is as
> > > some sort of must-have piece of software. It suggests that people don't
> > > do much other than open up Word and Excel.
>
> > I'm the minority report. I have never used Office. I have no need for it
> > in my personal life and the company never installed it on the programming
> > machines. If we get RFPs or other documents in docx or xlsx we use
> > LibreOffice. For me, that's a read-only thing since my attempts to edit
> > anything were disasters.
>
> What do you use to edit/create documents and spreadsheets with others?
[...]
> I'm surprised you don't do any documents. I have been using word
> processors since I was in elementary with Apple 2's AppleWorks.

Like rbowman, I used/used vi/vim for my documents. Have been using it,
ever since it became available (to me). First on Unix/UNIX and later -
mainly privately - also on DOS and Windows. I currently have some 3500
of such documents. And FTR, I'm using vim to compose this very article!
:-)

In a past working life, I shortly used nroff when vi couldn't yet
format/reformat text (or I didn't know about it or didn't know how to
do it).

On a temporary assignment, I had to use WordPerfect, because the
organization which hired me was more (only?) interested in how research/
investigation/etc. reports looked, than in their content/substance.
Luckily after a few months, I managed to escape.

And of course I still get the occasional .doc[x] attachment from
someone who only *needs* a note-taking program, but only *has* (or knows
how to use) Word. Luckily my current Windows 11 seems to grok such
files, at least I didn't have to install LibreOffice since I got it,
over two years ago. Knock on wood.

[...]

On 12/28/24 5:17 PM, Joel wrote:
> Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>
>>> people ... buy a laptop every three years, to keep
>>> up with M$'s grotesque OS's bloat, so that they can have their pretty
>>> Office apps. It's unbelievable. The value I'm getting from my
>>> computer is beyond what they could know.
>>
>> I was telling my wife the exact same thing. We're not doing much more
>> than we were in 2008, yet a 2008 machine would be incapable of handling
>> today's software (unless it's running Linux). At some point, people need
>> to wake up and realize that the exponential increase in speed isn't
>> offering any real benefit to users who are doing anything other than
>> video editing or gaming.
>
>
> It's just a scheme to keep people upgrading hardware.

Only if you allow it to be.

Case in point, I've recently replaced a 2017 laptop, which in its seven
years of use only had $135 in MS software purchases: that's <$2/month.
Its replacement's initial software was $100 (MS Office 2024), which
should be good for four years and be similarly cost just ~$2/month.

If I optionally choose to add photo editing, a new license for Adobe
Photoshop Elements is currently $70 for 3 years, which is ~$2/month.

-hh

On 12/29/24 1:38 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Dec 2024 21:26:49 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>> The only thing I've ever used Office for is essays and the occasional
>> presentation. I've said it before: even AbiWord is more than enough for
>> me. If I recall correctly, AbiWord had every feature I needed to write
>> university essays and I actually became quite loyal to the program
>> because it bailed me out when I had no other program to write with. It's
>> pretty useless for the advanced Office files we all receive from others,
>> but it's spectacular with any new document you might want to produce.
>> The bonus is that it's fast as heck in 2024. Hell, it was fast and light
>> as heck even in 2002 or whatever year it was.
>
> Essays in my school days generally involve a pen and 'blue book' for exams
> or a cheap manual typewriter in some cases.

We are all very quickly dating ourselves to the pre-digital era.

> The first word processor I was
> exposed to was WordStar that was bundled on a CP/M system, over ten years
> later. It was serviceable as a programming editor. Vim was in the future
> and vi, prior to improvement, was primitive.

For mainframe based, I migrated to JOVE over VI, as it wasn't for
programming and JOVE was IMO better suited for business communications.

> In later years any documentation I did was with Vim. The process was we
> would try to dig up a past document that was sort of like the new
> interface. I'd make notes on it, the tech writer would make it pretty, I
> would review it, rinse and repeat. Over time I became convinced the
> clients seldom read the final product anyway.

I'm oversimplifying, but as a broad sweeping statement, I'd say that
monospaced fonts are better for writing code, whereas proportional fonts
are better for human-based reading of narrative.

-hh

-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>On 12/28/24 5:17 PM, Joel wrote:
>> Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>
>>>> people ... buy a laptop every three years, to keep
>>>> up with M$'s grotesque OS's bloat, so that they can have their pretty
>>>> Office apps. It's unbelievable. The value I'm getting from my
>>>> computer is beyond what they could know.
>>>
>>> I was telling my wife the exact same thing. We're not doing much more
>>> than we were in 2008, yet a 2008 machine would be incapable of handling
>>> today's software (unless it's running Linux). At some point, people need
>>> to wake up and realize that the exponential increase in speed isn't
>>> offering any real benefit to users who are doing anything other than
>>> video editing or gaming.
>>
>> It's just a scheme to keep people upgrading hardware.
>
>Only if you allow it to be.

Hence why I'm running and advocating Linux.

>Case in point, I've recently replaced a 2017 laptop, which in its seven
>years of use only had $135 in MS software purchases: that's <$2/month.
>Its replacement's initial software was $100 (MS Office 2024), which
>should be good for four years and be similarly cost just ~$2/month.
>
>If I optionally choose to add photo editing, a new license for Adobe
>Photoshop Elements is currently $70 for 3 years, which is ~$2/month.

Sure, but that doesn't address increasing demands on hardware.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 08:48:34 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

[snip]

> The first printer I owned was a 24-pin printer I got with my IBM PS/1.
> It was probably a lot quieter than what you used but still too
> annoyingly loud for my taste. I quite enjoyed how quiet inkjet was (even
> though I hated how frequently you had to get more ink) and then the
> laser printer.

My first printer was an Epsom MX-80 (8-pin). At the time, I was in college
and had an assignment to print a graph. The prior assignment was on A/D
converters and led to a collection of 256 8-bit numbers. This assignment
was to generate a graph from them. The school printer had only 7 pins, and
was much harder to use than mine. Although I was allowed to do the
assignment at home, I ended up learning both systems because I was helping
a bunch of other students.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal

On 29 Dec 2024 00:53:43 GMT, rbowman wrote:

[snip]

> There is a similar effect with microcontrollers. A 8048 was extremely
> limited and you usually wound up using assembler. The Atmel chip in the
> classic Arduinos is luxurious and you can work in C/C++. However there
> still are memory limits.

I programmed an Arduino to control my Christmas lights. I enjoyed fitting
the Morse code translation table into as little memory as possible (only
96 bytes).

The table needed only 96 entries because I masked off bit 7 and considered
there to be no Morse equivalent for characters below 0x20. Since Morse
code is variable-length, a table entry needs 2 parts: code (maximum 6
bits) and count (3 bits). I managed to get both in a single byte.

[snip]

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal

On 29 Dec 2024 00:53:43 GMT, rbowman wrote:

[snip]

> Is that progress? Beat's me. I was at a museum that had a display of the
> development of household labor saving devices. It noted that when
> housewives received all these new time savers they tended to find new
> things to spend the saved time on.

Including ridiculous standards for "clean".

> Filling your house with Victorian
> kitsch didn't advance civilization.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal

On 29 Dec 2024 19:32:59 GMT, Mark Lloyd wrote:

[snip]

> My first printer was an Epsom MX-80 (8-pin).

Correction: it was a 9-pin printer, but only 8 were used for bitmap
graphics. I don't remember how line feed worked.

> At the time, I was in
> college and had an assignment to print a graph. The prior assignment was
> on A/D converters and led to a collection of 256 8-bit numbers. This
> assignment was to generate a graph from them. The school printer had
> only 7 pins, and was much harder to use than mine. Although I was
> allowed to do the assignment at home, I ended up learning both systems
> because I was helping a bunch of other students.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal

On 2024-12-29 07:58, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 01:43:11 +0000, Ant wrote:
>
>> What do you use to edit/create documents and spreadsheets with others?
>
> I don't. Anything I create is done with Vim. For external use we have tech
> writers that make it pretty. My attempts to edit RFPs with LibreOffice
> don't work well, so I either use Vim and reference the sections or print
> relevant pages and use a pen.

Amazing that none of you has mentioned latex. You can edit documents
with vi.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 12/29/24 2:24 PM, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 12/28/24 5:17 PM, Joel wrote:
>>> Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> people ... buy a laptop every three years, to keep
>>>>> up with M$'s grotesque OS's bloat, so that they can have their pretty
>>>>> Office apps. It's unbelievable. The value I'm getting from my
>>>>> computer is beyond what they could know.
>>>>
>>>> I was telling my wife the exact same thing. We're not doing much more
>>>> than we were in 2008, yet a 2008 machine would be incapable of handling
>>>> today's software (unless it's running Linux). At some point, people need
>>>> to wake up and realize that the exponential increase in speed isn't
>>>> offering any real benefit to users who are doing anything other than
>>>> video editing or gaming.
>>>
>>> It's just a scheme to keep people upgrading hardware.
>>
>> Only if you allow it to be.
>
>
> Hence why I'm running and advocating Linux.
>
>
>> Case in point, I've recently replaced a 2017 laptop, which in its seven
>> years of use only had $135 in MS software purchases: that's <$2/month.
>> Its replacement's initial software was $100 (MS Office 2024), which
>> should be good for four years and be similarly cost just ~$2/month.
>>
>> If I optionally choose to add photo editing, a new license for Adobe
>> Photoshop Elements is currently $70 for 3 years, which is ~$2/month.
>
>
> Sure, but that doesn't address increasing demands on hardware.

Oh, so *one* software upgrade over 7 years is suddenly now going to be
some undue 'hardware demand'? Not even for MS-Office it isn't.

-hh

Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> Amazing that none of you has mentioned latex.

This isn't that kind of group!

On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 07:17:32 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> I remember being in high school and talking about the latest 486 and
> dual-speed CD-ROM when my English teacher came up to me and asked me
> what was so exciting about that. He told me he was using some ancient
> technology (I don't remember which) and mentioned that the exam we just
> did was prepared on that. I was actually surprised to hear that because
> I recalled that printers in the 1980s other than PC ones were usually
> tiny daisy wheel ones.

My hatred for printers goes way back. The products were laboratory pH
meters and auto-titrators but they could print out the results. Every
printer was different, dot matrix, daisy wheels, thermal, and so forth. We
would send a gopher to ComputerLand to buy a printer, determine what it
needed to print, and then send the gopher back to exchange it for another
model. We legitimately bought enough from ComputerLand that they put up
with the ruse. The worst were the little thermals but they were popular in
labs.

I was amazed when I plugged the USB Samsung into the Ubuntu box and it
just worked. That definitely has not been my experience with printers.

On 29 Dec 2024 16:39:41 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> And of course I still get the occasional .doc[x] attachment from
> someone who only *needs* a note-taking program, but only *has* (or knows
> how to use) Word. Luckily my current Windows 11 seems to grok such
> files, at least I didn't have to install LibreOffice since I got it,
> over two years ago. Knock on wood.

That's my annoyance with Excel. Any xls document I've ever gotten was a
freeform notepad with handy rows. I can't recall ever getting a xls where
there were any manipulations on the cells. When all you know how to use is
a hammer...

On 29 Dec 2024 19:44:19 GMT, Mark Lloyd wrote:

> On 29 Dec 2024 00:53:43 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Is that progress? Beat's me. I was at a museum that had a display of
>> the development of household labor saving devices. It noted that when
>> housewives received all these new time savers they tended to find new
>> things to spend the saved time on.
>
> Including ridiculous standards for "clean".

The need to instantly refrigerate everything is the one that gets me. For
one reason or the other I've had periods without a refrigerator. A dozen
eggs sitting on the counter won't hatch or go bad for a week or two.

-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:

>>> I've recently replaced a 2017 laptop, which in its seven
>>> years of use only had $135 in MS software purchases: that's <$2/month.
>>> Its replacement's initial software was $100 (MS Office 2024), which
>>> should be good for four years and be similarly cost just ~$2/month.
>>>
>>> If I optionally choose to add photo editing, a new license for Adobe
>>> Photoshop Elements is currently $70 for 3 years, which is ~$2/month.
>>
>> Sure, but that doesn't address increasing demands on hardware.
>
>Oh, so *one* software upgrade over 7 years is suddenly now going to be
>some undue 'hardware demand'? Not even for MS-Office it isn't.

I had the ideal computer, to upgrade to Windows 11, in 2021. Freshly
built with Win10, SSD storage, blah blah, but 23H2 was already feeling
overweight. Hence running Linux till this thing dies.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 29 Dec 2024 19:42:40 GMT, Mark Lloyd wrote:

> I programmed an Arduino to control my Christmas lights. I enjoyed
> fitting the Morse code translation table into as little memory as
> possible (only 96 bytes).

I wasn't that ambitious. At one time I was good enough with Morse to pass
the Advanced code test. Use it or lose it as they say.

The neopixels are fun since you can randomly assign RGB values and get
strange effects.

On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 21:17:16 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> On 2024-12-29 07:58, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 01:43:11 +0000, Ant wrote:
>>
>>> What do you use to edit/create documents and spreadsheets with others?
>>
>> I don't. Anything I create is done with Vim. For external use we have
>> tech writers that make it pretty. My attempts to edit RFPs with
>> LibreOffice don't work well, so I either use Vim and reference the
>> sections or print relevant pages and use a pen.
>
> Amazing that none of you has mentioned latex. You can edit documents
> with vi.

The only things I know about latex are gloves and paint. It goes back to
never needing to make documents look pretty. I do know a little about
nenscript from a programming aspect. We used a modified version to allow
for headers, footers, and font selection for printed reports and I had to
tweak the code.

On 2024-12-29 15:56, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 07:17:32 -0500, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>> I remember being in high school and talking about the latest 486 and
>> dual-speed CD-ROM when my English teacher came up to me and asked me
>> what was so exciting about that. He told me he was using some ancient
>> technology (I don't remember which) and mentioned that the exam we just
>> did was prepared on that. I was actually surprised to hear that because
>> I recalled that printers in the 1980s other than PC ones were usually
>> tiny daisy wheel ones.
>
> My hatred for printers goes way back. The products were laboratory pH
> meters and auto-titrators but they could print out the results. Every
> printer was different, dot matrix, daisy wheels, thermal, and so forth. We
> would send a gopher to ComputerLand to buy a printer, determine what it
> needed to print, and then send the gopher back to exchange it for another
> model. We legitimately bought enough from ComputerLand that they put up
> with the ruse. The worst were the little thermals but they were popular in
> labs.
>
> I was amazed when I plugged the USB Samsung into the Ubuntu box and it
> just worked. That definitely has not been my experience with printers.

I actually had some trouble with my printer with Linux a couple of days
ago. Unlike my previous Linux installations, it just wouldn't detect the
damned thing. After a minute or so, I realized that I had changed my
ISP's router a few months back and hadn't connected the printer to it
since because my basement, where the printer is located, was flooded in
August and we were waiting for it to be restored. A push-button setup
later and it worked like a charm.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch