On 12/19/24 18:24, Hank Rogers wrote:
> Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
> install it? I must have missed that.
>

There is a find app program. You type in what you are after
and it makes suggestions. No big deal.

I use the command line though

On 12/20/24 12:42, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 08:33:53 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> Le 2024-12-19 à 20:13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a écrit :
>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> winget comes to mind.
>>>
>>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>>
>>> Did I miss any?
>>
>> Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
>> ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.
>
> Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in about
> 1994.

With Fedora, if you use their repos, the spec file's
contain all the dependencies, so those get installed
at the same time. It is very polished and professional.

Not with Windows.

I have a running argument with Raku for Windows
about making Git a dependency as Raku's zef (installs
Raku libraries) requires it. Oh ya, and you
have to figure it out yourself, the hard way.
No such bull s*** in Fedora.

On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 20:42:41 -0500, Paul wrote:

> On Fri, 12/20/2024 7:35 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 16:25:06 -0500, Paul wrote:
>>
>>> The Synaptic GUI for example, is the GUI for a single repository
>>> filled with .deb files.
>>
>> Isn’t it a front end for whatever is in /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/
>> apt/sources.list.d/*? Which can be any number of repositories?
>>
> It probably can. But all it was originally designed for was .deb as
> that's all there was at the time.

Repositories full of .deb files are what I am talking about.

On 21/12/2024 03:35, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

>
> Repositories full of .deb files are what I am talking about.
>

WHAT THE FUCK HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH WINDOWS? WHY ARE LINUX JUNKIES SO
STUPID?

STOP THE FUCK FROM POSTING THIS ON WINDOWS NEWSGROUP.

NOW GO AND FUCK YOUR SISTER OR EVEN YOUR MOTHER.

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 05:45:10 +0000, OLIVER wrote:

> WHAT THE FUCK HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH WINDOWS?

Take a deep breath, and read the thread from the beginning.

On Sat, 12/21/2024 2:08 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 05:45:10 +0000, OLIVER wrote:
>
>> WHAT THE FUCK HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH WINDOWS?
>
> Take a deep breath, and read the thread from the beginning.
>

A little thread drift perhaps. The original post
was about a click-bait/confused Forbes article.

Using Rufus, you can continue to run "something"
on your PC from the Windows domain, that still works.
As much as the stuff has worked to date (Windows Update
rough edges).

But what the average user will do, who can guess at that.
The average user is not prepared for any complicated
procedures, and if you query the state of the average
user machine, you will find the Windows Update broke
three years ago, and the individual did not notice.

If I go to my local computer store, the cashier
when asked questions, is a very practical person, and
does not engage people in a "buy,buy,buy" conversation.
The staff don't really like their employer, so it's not
surprising what conversations result. If anyone asks
that cashier what to do, they'll just be told to
"keep using what you've got and don't worry about it".
Which is a pretty reasonable answer, for customers
who cannot handle much else in the way of alternatives.

Paul

Le 2024-12-20 à 20:57, Paul a écrit :
> On Fri, 12/20/2024 4:45 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>> Le 2024-12-20 à 15:42, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a écrit :
>>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 08:33:53 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> Le 2024-12-19 à 20:13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> winget comes to mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>>>>
>>>>> Did I miss any?
>>>>
>>>> Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
>>>> ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.
>>>
>>> Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in about
>>> 1994.
>>
>> That's not a store.
>>
>
> The "Store Concept" is the dumbed down version of package management.

Clearly. However, you don't buy applications in Synaptic.

> The user is not supposed to understand or learn anything about
> packages and dependencies, when pecking at the button in the Store.
>
> Doing a dumb version, is fine, if you can pull it off.
> If, every time you click the button, a biscuit comes out,
> then the user would "trust" the dumb method. If, like in
> my demo test, the biscuit is not delivered and there
> is no error message or even a hint of failure, the
> dumb concept is a fail, because the customer is not
> getting a "reward" for clicking the button. The
> operant conditioning is going to be a fail.
>
> All this arguing about who invented the Store, it is
> the Psychology department at my university that invented it.
> At the entrance to the department, was a receptionist.
> Next to the receptionist was a stack of chicken cages
> with one chicken per cage. There are buttons to click,
> and some sort of stimulus. The chicken figures out,
> that if you click the "GIMP" button, a grain of food
> will come down the chute. If the chicken is not
> rewarded when the "GIMP" button is pressed, the
> chicken has no incentive to click it the next time.
>
> I often wondered who did "maintenance" on the chickens,
> because they were in excellent condition, none of them
> seemed to be diseased or anything. But everything the
> psych department did was like that. They would do the
> most complicated things, to suit their religion
> (B.F. Skinner-ism). They had probably conditioned
> a grad student, to take care of the chickens
> (you know, give the grad student electric shocks,
> if the work was not done).

In 2024, why would it be necessary for a user to know that GIMP didn't
install because 13 obscure libraries couldn't be pulled from their
respective repositories? Why do Linux losers insist that everyone live
in the Stone Age?

--
CrudeSausage

Paul wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> <snip>
>
> I often wondered who did "maintenance" on the chickens, because they were in
> excellent condition, none of them seemed to be diseased or anything. But
> everything the psych department did was like that. They would do the most
> complicated things, to suit their religion (B.F. Skinner-ism). They had
> probably conditioned a grad student, to take care of the chickens (you know,
> give the grad student electric shocks, if the work was not done).

https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Seymour_Skinner

He is the principal of Springfield Elementary School, and a stereotypical
educational bureaucrat. He struggles to control the crumbling school and is
constantly engaged in a battle against its inadequate resources, apathetic
and bitter teachers, and often rowdy and unenthusiastic students, Bart
Simpson being a standout example. A strict disciplinarian, Skinner has an
uptight, militaristic attitude that stems from his years in the United
States Army as a Green Beret, which included service in the Vietnam War,
where he achieved the rank of a sergeant, according to his rank insignia.
As a result of his service in the Vietnam War, he is often plagued by
horrible memories of his involvement via post-traumatic stress disorder,
sometimes even happening at the most inopportune of times. It is also
implied that he received a severe injury during the Vietnam War on his
posterior to require a metal plate to be installed in it.

And actually, I can state from experience that they had worse stimuli
than electric shocks to apply to grad students.

--
"Remember, extremism in the nondefense of moderation is not a virtue."
-- Peter Neumann, about usenet

On Sat, 12/21/2024 7:21 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:

>
> In 2024, why would it be necessary for a user to know that GIMP didn't install because 13 obscure libraries couldn't be pulled from their respective repositories? Why do Linux losers insist that everyone live in the Stone Age?
>

Ah, but they weren't "pulled from Repositories".

This was the SNAP version of GIMP. A squashfs container filled with
every library needed to make GIMP run.

Nothing at all comes from the system /usr/lib when the GIMP SNAP runs.
It cannot in fact. Even if the GIMP inside the container
needed a hug, it can't get a hug from the life forms outside
the container. It's environment is completely inside the container.

The SnapCrafters (the party placing the GIMP in the SNAP Store),
they are the ones for ensuring the alignment of elements inside
the file system of the container.

By attempting to run the busted GIMP from the command line,
we can see on the first invocation, a number of errors. There
is some process that happens after the container is loopback
mounted, where some of those errors are resolved.

But it seems one of the dependencies, it exists inside the
file system. But the symbolic link, to link it into a path
where the GIMP executable can get it, is missing.

This is the value of looking at the symptoms. We can see
the situation is non-recoverable. If I reach inside the
squashfs and "fix it", that will change the checksum of the
file, the file will be discarded, and a fresh copy of the
diseased SNAP will be fetched.

*******

I later discovered that Ubuntu does have a dual representation
for the GIMP. This is how I got myself a working setup. I removed
the SNAP and installed a .deb . Fixed.

sudo snap remove gimp
sudo apt install gimp
gimp example.heic

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/RFGmQnP9/gimp-deb-ubuntu2404-HEIC.gif

Paul

Le 2024-12-21 à 08:05, Paul a écrit :
> On Sat, 12/21/2024 7:21 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>>
>> In 2024, why would it be necessary for a user to know that GIMP didn't install because 13 obscure libraries couldn't be pulled from their respective repositories? Why do Linux losers insist that everyone live in the Stone Age?
>>
>
> Ah, but they weren't "pulled from Repositories".
>
> This was the SNAP version of GIMP. A squashfs container filled with
> every library needed to make GIMP run.
>
> Nothing at all comes from the system /usr/lib when the GIMP SNAP runs.
> It cannot in fact. Even if the GIMP inside the container
> needed a hug, it can't get a hug from the life forms outside
> the container. It's environment is completely inside the container.
>
> The SnapCrafters (the party placing the GIMP in the SNAP Store),
> they are the ones for ensuring the alignment of elements inside
> the file system of the container.
>
> By attempting to run the busted GIMP from the command line,
> we can see on the first invocation, a number of errors. There
> is some process that happens after the container is loopback
> mounted, where some of those errors are resolved.
>
> But it seems one of the dependencies, it exists inside the
> file system. But the symbolic link, to link it into a path
> where the GIMP executable can get it, is missing.
>
> This is the value of looking at the symptoms. We can see
> the situation is non-recoverable. If I reach inside the
> squashfs and "fix it", that will change the checksum of the
> file, the file will be discarded, and a fresh copy of the
> diseased SNAP will be fetched.
>
> *******
>
> I later discovered that Ubuntu does have a dual representation
> for the GIMP. This is how I got myself a working setup. I removed
> the SNAP and installed a .deb . Fixed.
>
> sudo snap remove gimp
> sudo apt install gimp
> gimp example.heic
>
> [Picture]
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/RFGmQnP9/gimp-deb-ubuntu2404-HEIC.gif

What a fucking mess.

--
CrudeSausage

Paul wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> On Sat, 12/21/2024 7:21 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> In 2024, why would it be necessary for a user to know that GIMP didn't
>> install because 13 obscure libraries couldn't be pulled from their
>> respective repositories? Why do Linux losers insist that everyone live in
>> the Stone Age?
>
> Ah, but they weren't "pulled from Repositories".
>
> This was the SNAP version of GIMP. A squashfs container filled with
> every library needed to make GIMP run.
>
> <brevsnip>
>
> I later discovered that Ubuntu does have a dual representation
> for the GIMP. This is how I got myself a working setup. I removed
> the SNAP and installed a .deb . Fixed.
>
> sudo snap remove gimp
> sudo apt install gimp
> gimp example.heic

I never use Snap. Actually shut my Ubuntu laptop semi-permanently.

I use GIMP on Win 11 as well. It's notably slower in Win 11 than it is in Linux
(Debian) with the same (dual boot) hardware. As is Qt Creator.

--
<Addi> Alter.net seems to have replaced one of its router with a zucchini.

On Sat, 12/21/2024 7:36 AM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Paul wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
>
>> <snip>
>>
>> I often wondered who did "maintenance" on the chickens, because they were in
>> excellent condition, none of them seemed to be diseased or anything. But
>> everything the psych department did was like that. They would do the most
>> complicated things, to suit their religion (B.F. Skinner-ism). They had
>> probably conditioned a grad student, to take care of the chickens (you know,
>> give the grad student electric shocks, if the work was not done).
>
> https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Seymour_Skinner
>
> He is the principal of Springfield Elementary School, and a stereotypical
> educational bureaucrat. He struggles to control the crumbling school and is
> constantly engaged in a battle against its inadequate resources, apathetic
> and bitter teachers, and often rowdy and unenthusiastic students, Bart
> Simpson being a standout example. A strict disciplinarian, Skinner has an
> uptight, militaristic attitude that stems from his years in the United
> States Army as a Green Beret, which included service in the Vietnam War,
> where he achieved the rank of a sergeant, according to his rank insignia.
> As a result of his service in the Vietnam War, he is often plagued by
> horrible memories of his involvement via post-traumatic stress disorder,
> sometimes even happening at the most inopportune of times. It is also
> implied that he received a severe injury during the Vietnam War on his
> posterior to require a metal plate to be installed in it.
>
> And actually, I can state from experience that they had worse stimuli
> than electric shocks to apply to grad students.
>

They made me participate in the Milgram Experiment re-enactment.

The setups for these experiments, are accurate in every detail.
Including the "electric box" shown in the picture.

Which today, that experiment is considered unethical in the profession.
It wasn't unethical back then.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html

My reference to giving a grad student a shock, that's
an inside joke about Milgram.

Paul

On Sat, 12/21/2024 9:04 AM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Paul wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
>
>> On Sat, 12/21/2024 7:21 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> In 2024, why would it be necessary for a user to know that GIMP didn't
>>> install because 13 obscure libraries couldn't be pulled from their
>>> respective repositories? Why do Linux losers insist that everyone live in
>>> the Stone Age?
>>
>> Ah, but they weren't "pulled from Repositories".
>>
>> This was the SNAP version of GIMP. A squashfs container filled with
>> every library needed to make GIMP run.
>>
>> <brevsnip>
>>
>> I later discovered that Ubuntu does have a dual representation
>> for the GIMP. This is how I got myself a working setup. I removed
>> the SNAP and installed a .deb . Fixed.
>>
>> sudo snap remove gimp
>> sudo apt install gimp
>> gimp example.heic
>
> I never use Snap. Actually shut my Ubuntu laptop semi-permanently.
>
> I use GIMP on Win 11 as well. It's notably slower in Win 11 than it is in Linux
> (Debian) with the same (dual boot) hardware. As is Qt Creator.
>

I run GIMP in Windows 11, from Bash Shell.

The demo of UBuntu was done in a VM.

I have up to three versions of GIMP on the W11 box.
Not all are equally convenient.

1) gimp.exe 2.6.8 (a version with Save As, instead of Export)
2) Win11 bash shell, WSLg, GIMP 2.10 .deb (for HEIC work)
3) Win11 Virbualbox "Ubuntu 2404 Guest", GIMP 2.10 .deb (the demo)

Item (1) is the workhorse one. I use the bash shell, every day.

Paul