On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 12:19:21 -0500, Newyana2 wrote:

> Linux lacks the software.

Linux is the only platform that offers a full native suite for both ARM
and x86 (both 32-bit and 64-bit). No other platform can match that.
Microsoft has been spending millions trying to get Windows to work
properly on ARM, but it still canโ€™t manage it. Microsoft has also been
spending millions trying to make Windows more like Linux -- and it canโ€™t
manage that either.

You donโ€™t hear of Linus Torvalds lying awake at nights, trying to figure
out how to add drive letters to Linux, do you?

Le 2024-12-19 ร  19:16, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a รฉcritย :
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 12:19:21 -0500, Newyana2 wrote:
>
>> Linux lacks the software.
>
> Linux is the only platform that offers a full native suite for both ARM
> and x86 (both 32-bit and 64-bit). No other platform can match that.
> Microsoft has been spending millions trying to get Windows to work
> properly on ARM, but it still canโ€™t manage it. Microsoft has also been
> spending millions trying to make Windows more like Linux -- and it canโ€™t
> manage that either.
>
> You donโ€™t hear of Linus Torvalds lying awake at nights, trying to figure
> out how to add drive letters to Linux, do you?

This is indeed a fair point. Microsoft has indeed made a few things in
Windows more like Linux. winget comes to mind.

--
CrudeSausage

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:

> winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?

Did I miss any?

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> winget comes to mind.
>
> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>
> Did I miss any?
>

Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
install it? I must have missed that.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:24:35 -0600, Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid>
wrote in <vk2kh2$34hvq$5@dont-email.me>:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> winget comes to mind.
>>
>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>
>> Did I miss any?
>>
>>
> Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
> install it? I must have missed that.

Most common distributions have some sort of software manager.

Here's is Linux Mint's:

https://imgur.com/EgkWlC7

Another graphical package manager is Synaptic.

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.12.6 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer?"

vallor wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:24:35 -0600, Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid>
> wrote in <vk2kh2$34hvq$5@dont-email.me>:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> winget comes to mind.
>>>
>>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>>
>>> Did I miss any?
>>>
>>>
>> Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
>> install it? I must have missed that.
>
> Most common distributions have some sort of software manager.
>
> Here's is Linux Mint's:
>
> https://imgur.com/EgkWlC7
>
> Another graphical package manager is Synaptic.
>
why would i take an image and ,
turn it into something else ,
why not just make the image i want

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 12:19:21 -0500, Newyana2 wrote:
>
>> Linux lacks the software.
>
> Linux is the only platform that offers a full native suite for both ARM
> and x86 (both 32-bit and 64-bit). No other platform can match that.
> Microsoft has been spending millions trying to get Windows to work
> properly on ARM, but it still canโ€™t manage it. Microsoft has also been
> spending millions trying to make Windows more like Linux -- and it canโ€™t
> manage that either.
>
> You donโ€™t hear of Linus Torvalds lying awake at nights, trying to figure
> out how to add drive letters to Linux, do you?

I laughed my ass off at all of the bullshit in Newyana2's post. It's so stupid
it's got to be simple trolling.

--
Revenge is a meal best served cold.

Hank Rogers wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> winget comes to mind.
>>
>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>
>> Did I miss any?
>
> Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
> install it? I must have missed that.

Then you blind. They're called "repositories", not stores, and there's no cost
to install. Most Linux distroes (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, Arch, CentOS)
have then. See vallor's response.

--
You can do this in a number of ways. IBM chose to do all of them.
Why do you find that funny?
-- D. Taylor, Computer Science 350

On Thu, 12/19/2024 10:19 PM, vallor wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:24:35 -0600, Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid>
> wrote in <vk2kh2$34hvq$5@dont-email.me>:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> winget comes to mind.
>>>
>>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>>
>>> Did I miss any?
>>>
>>>
>> Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
>> install it? I must have missed that.
>
> Most common distributions have some sort of software manager.
>
> Here's is Linux Mint's:
>
> https://imgur.com/EgkWlC7
>
> Another graphical package manager is Synaptic.
>

Linux has several generations of presentation of software.

* Software-Store-like presentation (the latest method)

* GUI presentation of package manager text (the practical way)

* Textual command line search (what came before the GUI, still useful)
(The Snap Search was truncated, to not embarrass the people who made it).

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/q7J4NWMW/Ubuntu-Selecting-Software.gif

No special care was used in selecting the test subject for that picture.
It was whatever was available in the VM list.

For the Software Store, I provide two frames. The timestamp of starting
to install a software. And the timestamp when the effort is "finished".

A total of 12 minutes, when the .deb version would install in a minute, tops.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/pTsVcCNT/Ubuntu-2404-App-Store-GIMP-Test.gif

What I did in preparation for that shot, is

snap refresh

This downloads recent copies of the Gnome Desktop snap, which is huge.
If you don't do that, the App Store does an implicit "refresh" while
you are sitting there with egg on your face. You could easily sit
there for half an hour, until the "refresh" is finished. The App Store
does not say "sorry, doing a refresh". There is no status in the GUI
indicating the level of contempt involved.

I separated that part out, so the App Store would not look so bad.
I did the "refresh", before doing the timing run.

Result:

1) App Store takes 12 minutes to download a package that is 10x
the size of the .deb version.

2) Once the SNAP is loaded (a self-contained execution environment),
the environment has failed to form a symbolic link from some weirdly
named shared library, into the appropriate spot. Attempts to launch
the erstwhile GIMP program, fail.

This is why anyone who really uses the OS, uses Synaptic and .deb files,
something that Linux Mint has too and LM has a better look about it
as it does not feature SNAPS. You can still install the snap subsystem
if you want, but you don't have to. Firefox is a .deb in Linux Mint.
For now at least.

Paul

Le 2024-12-19 ร  20:13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a รฉcritย :
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> winget comes to mind.
>
> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>
> Did I miss any?

Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.

--
CrudeSausage

Le 2024-12-19 ร  21:24, Hank Rogers a รฉcritย :
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> winget comes to mind.
>>
>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>
>> Did I miss any?
>>
>
> Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
> install it? I must have missed that.

The "stores" most Linux distributions offer have that now. In fact, you
can even go to snapcraft.io or flathub.org and install applications from
the web page by clicking on them.

--
CrudeSausage

On 12/19/2024 7:16 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> Linux is the only platform that offers a full native suite for both ARM

The software no one wants running on the hardware no one wants... what a
combo.

Paul wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> On Thu, 12/19/2024 10:19 PM, vallor wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:24:35 -0600, Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid>
>> wrote in <vk2kh2$34hvq$5@dont-email.me>:
>>
>> Most common distributions have some sort of software manager.
>> Here's is Linux Mint's:
>>
>> https://imgur.com/EgkWlC7
>>
>> Another graphical package manager is Synaptic.
>
> Linux has several generations of presentation of software.
>
> * Software-Store-like presentation (the latest method)
> * GUI presentation of package manager text (the practical way)
> * Textual command line search (what came before the GUI, still useful)
> (The Snap Search was truncated, to not embarrass the people who made it).
>
> [Picture]
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/q7J4NWMW/Ubuntu-Selecting-Software.gif
>
> No special care was used in selecting the test subject for that picture.
> It was whatever was available in the VM list.
>
> For the Software Store, I provide two frames. The timestamp of starting
> to install a software. And the timestamp when the effort is "finished".
>
> A total of 12 minutes, when the .deb version would install in a minute, tops.
>
> [Picture]
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/pTsVcCNT/Ubuntu-2404-App-Store-GIMP-Test.gif
>
> What I did in preparation for that shot, is
>
> snap refresh
>
> This downloads recent copies of the Gnome Desktop snap, which is huge.
> If you don't do that, the App Store does an implicit "refresh" while
> you are sitting there with egg on your face. You could easily sit
> there for half an hour, until the "refresh" is finished. The App Store
> does not say "sorry, doing a refresh". There is no status in the GUI
> indicating the level of contempt involved.
>
> I separated that part out, so the App Store would not look so bad.
> I did the "refresh", before doing the timing run.
>
> Result:
>
> 1) App Store takes 12 minutes to download a package that is 10x
> the size of the .deb version.
>
> 2) Once the SNAP is loaded (a self-contained execution environment),
> the environment has failed to form a symbolic link from some weirdly
> named shared library, into the appropriate spot. Attempts to launch
> the erstwhile GIMP program, fail.
>
> This is why anyone who really uses the OS, uses Synaptic and .deb files,
> something that Linux Mint has too and LM has a better look about it
> as it does not feature SNAPS. You can still install the snap subsystem
> if you want, but you don't have to. Firefox is a .deb in Linux Mint.
> For now at least.

Arch Linux (the other distro I use) has a couple of command-line apps.
Maybe there's a cutesy GUI, but I just goo-goo for the package name if
the obvious name doesn't work with pacman.

(Pacman and Arch-like packages are also used on Windows in the MSYS2 system).

On Debian (Sid) I have used the ncurses (I think) app called "aptitude", for
years and years.

--
Armadillo:
To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.

On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 09:38:22 -0500, DFS wrote:

> On 12/19/2024 7:16 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Linux is the only platform that offers a full native suite for both ARM
>
> ... the hardware no one wants...

Microsoft certainly seems to want it, and is trying very hard to support
it.

Its lack of success is another matter.

On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 08:33:53 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:

> Le 2024-12-19 ร  20:13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a รฉcritย :
>
>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> winget comes to mind.
>>
>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>
>> Did I miss any?
>
> Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
> ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.

Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in about
1994.

On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 08:41:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:

> Le 2024-12-19 ร  21:24, Hank Rogers a รฉcritย :
>>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> winget comes to mind.
>>>
>>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>>
>>> Did I miss any?
>>>
>> Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
>> install it? I must have missed that.
>
> The "stores" most Linux distributions offer have that now.

Or just use a GUI front end to the package management system.

On 12/20/24 3:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 08:33:53 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> Le 2024-12-19 ร  20:13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a รฉcritย :
>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> winget comes to mind.
>>>
>>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>>
>>> Did I miss any?
>>
>> Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
>> ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.
>
> Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in about
> 1994.

Wasn't that derived from SMIT, which was originated in IBM's AIX circa 1989?

-hh

On Fri, 12/20/2024 3:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 08:41:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> Le 2024-12-19 ร  21:24, Hank Rogers a รฉcritย :
>>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> winget comes to mind.
>>>>
>>>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>>>
>>>> Did I miss any?
>>>>
>>> Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
>>> install it? I must have missed that.
>>
>> The "stores" most Linux distributions offer have that now.
>
> Or just use a GUI front end to the package management system.
>

The software store, is a graphical front for *two* repositories.

The software store will tell you which repository or both of them
have a copy of what you want, and you can select which type
you want. One is bloated, so most people would use the other.

The Synaptic GUI for example, is the GUI for a single repository
filled with .deb files.

The Store concept could handle multiple packaging schemes at
the same time. Whatever the distro happens to support.

Paul

Le 2024-12-20 ร  15:42, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a รฉcritย :
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 08:33:53 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> Le 2024-12-19 ร  20:13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a รฉcritย :
>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> winget comes to mind.
>>>
>>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>>
>>> Did I miss any?
>>
>> Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
>> ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.
>
> Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in about
> 1994.

That's not a store.

--
CrudeSausage

On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 16:12:50 -0500, -hh wrote:

> On 12/20/24 3:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in
>> about 1994.
>
> Wasn't that derived from SMIT, which was originated in IBM's AIX circa
> 1989?

Probably not.

On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 16:25:06 -0500, Paul wrote:

> The Synaptic GUI for example, is the GUI for a single repository filled
> with .deb files.

Isnโ€™t it a front end for whatever is in /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/
apt/sources.list.d/*? Which can be any number of repositories?

On Fri, 12/20/2024 7:35 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 16:25:06 -0500, Paul wrote:
>
>> The Synaptic GUI for example, is the GUI for a single repository filled
>> with .deb files.
>
> Isnโ€™t it a front end for whatever is in /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/
> apt/sources.list.d/*? Which can be any number of repositories?
>

It probably can. But all it was originally designed
for was .deb as that's all there was at the time.

The Software Stores are of more recent manufacture,
and are an invention of a richer era, so they have
to support more options out of the box. But generally
speaking, in terms of operating speed, and communication
style, they can be slower, and they don't exactly
give you much in the way of hints, on a failure.
Clicking the "Open" and nothing happens, that's
not very nice. At least with a command line launch
after installation, there are error messages.

While I occasionally test the Software Store, I have
zero interest in using it on a daily basis. That would
be an awful way to live. Synaptic by comparison, is a
trustworthy item. I can get thing done with that.
And the lineup is hardly ever wrong. Very good curation
by the staff. You will notice in my random selection
of the GIMP image editor (SNAP version) from the
Software Store thing, not only was it slow, but the
program was broken. I can promise you the .deb version
(like on Linux Mint), won't be broken. That's because
the first level of checking is by Debian staff.

Paul

On Fri, 12/20/2024 4:45 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
> Le 2024-12-20 ร  15:42, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a รฉcritย :
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 08:33:53 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> Le 2024-12-19 ร  20:13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a รฉcritย :
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:04:50 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> winget comes to mind.
>>>>
>>>> Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
>>>>
>>>> Did I miss any?
>>>
>>> Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
>>> ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.
>>
>> Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in about
>> 1994.
>
> That's not a store.
>

The "Store Concept" is the dumbed down version of package management.

The user is not supposed to understand or learn anything about
packages and dependencies, when pecking at the button in the Store.

Doing a dumb version, is fine, if you can pull it off.
If, every time you click the button, a biscuit comes out,
then the user would "trust" the dumb method. If, like in
my demo test, the biscuit is not delivered and there
is no error message or even a hint of failure, the
dumb concept is a fail, because the customer is not
getting a "reward" for clicking the button. The
operant conditioning is going to be a fail.

All this arguing about who invented the Store, it is
the Psychology department at my university that invented it.
At the entrance to the department, was a receptionist.
Next to the receptionist was a stack of chicken cages
with one chicken per cage. There are buttons to click,
and some sort of stimulus. The chicken figures out,
that if you click the "GIMP" button, a grain of food
will come down the chute. If the chicken is not
rewarded when the "GIMP" button is pressed, the
chicken has no incentive to click it the next time.

I often wondered who did "maintenance" on the chickens,
because they were in excellent condition, none of them
seemed to be diseased or anything. But everything the
psych department did was like that. They would do the
most complicated things, to suit their religion
(B.F. Skinner-ism). They had probably conditioned
a grad student, to take care of the chickens
(you know, give the grad student electric shocks,
if the work was not done).

Paul

Paul wrote:
> On Fri, 12/20/2024 7:35 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 16:25:06 -0500, Paul wrote:
>>
>>> The Synaptic GUI for example, is the GUI for a single repository filled
>>> with .deb files.
>>
>> Isnโ€™t it a front end for whatever is in /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/
>> apt/sources.list.d/*? Which can be any number of repositories?
>>
>
> It probably can. But all it was originally designed
> for was .deb as that's all there was at the time.
>
> The Software Stores are of more recent manufacture,
> and are an invention of a richer era, so they have
> to support more options out of the box. But generally
> speaking, in terms of operating speed, and communication
> style, they can be slower, and they don't exactly
> give you much in the way of hints, on a failure.
> Clicking the "Open" and nothing happens, that's
> not very nice. At least with a command line launch
> after installation, there are error messages.
>
> While I occasionally test the Software Store, I have
> zero interest in using it on a daily basis. That would
> be an awful way to live. Synaptic by comparison, is a
> trustworthy item. I can get thing done with that.
> And the lineup is hardly ever wrong. Very good curation
> by the staff. You will notice in my random selection
> of the GIMP image editor (SNAP version) from the
> Software Store thing, not only was it slow, but the
> program was broken. I can promise you the .deb version
> (like on Linux Mint), won't be broken. That's because
> the first level of checking is by Debian staff.
>
> Paul
>
what's wrong with your address

% wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>> On Fri, 12/20/2024 7:35 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 16:25:06 -0500, Paul wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Synaptic GUI for example, is the GUI for a single repository filled
>>>> with .deb files.
>>>
>>> Isnโ€™t it a front end for whatever is in /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/
>>> apt/sources.list.d/*? Which can be any number of repositories?
>>>
>>
>> It probably can. But all it was originally designed
>> for was .debย  as that's all there was at the time.
>>
>> The Software Stores are of more recent manufacture,
>> and are an invention of a richer era, so they have
>> to support more options out of the box. But generally
>> speaking, in terms of operating speed, and communication
>> style, they can be slower, and they don't exactly
>> give you much in the way of hints, on a failure.
>> Clicking the "Open" and nothing happens, that's
>> not very nice. At least with a command line launch
>> after installation, there are error messages.
>>
>> While I occasionally test the Software Store, I have
>> zero interest in using it on a daily basis. That would
>> be an awful way to live. Synaptic by comparison, is a
>> trustworthy item. I can get thing done with that.
>> And the lineup is hardly ever wrong. Very good curation
>> by the staff. You will notice in my random selection
>> of the GIMP image editor (SNAP version) from the
>> Software Store thing, not only was it slow, but the
>> program was broken. I can promise you the .deb version
>> (like on Linux Mint), won't be broken. That's because
>> the first level of checking is by Debian staff.
>>
>> ย ย ย  Paul
>>
> what's wrong with your address

it's weird