On 2024-12-19, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On 18 Dec 2024 20:17:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> That would take some getting used to. The 'Difficult' on Ubuntu is about
>> the same as the 'Default' on Fedora. The perspective is enough different
>> that I missed play since the tile didn't look playable,
>
> Follow up: I beat the Default twice. I still don't know what's up with the
> tiles that look like flowers where what matches isn't the same. I have to
> click on them and see if it goes.

You've got some in pots and some not in pots. I think that's basically the
only difference.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-12-18, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> Le 2024-12-18 à 06:05, RonB a écrit :
>> On 2024-12-17, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 08:13:12 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't have to "imagine" that the lack of cheap Russian gas is hurting
>>>> Germany's economy (that's plain to see every day in the international
>>>> news).
>>>> I'm just having trouble imagining that this is resulting in angst about
>>>> the amount of electricity required to charge a laptop.
>>>
>>> There were other factors like immigration but Scholz's brilliant policies
>>> got him a vote of no confidence and the government failed. February will
>>> be interesting.
>>
>> That Scholz always looks like he's confused. I think Trudeau in Canada
>> might be in trouble as well (also constantly confused).
>
> The media here is strongly suggesting that Trudeau will resign. They are
> saying that there are too many factors around him pushing him in that
> direction and that a January election is very likely. Of course, they
> are underestimating Trudeau's self-awareness and therefore his knowledge
> of how useless he is to the world if he loses the ultimate job. He has
> no knowledge of law, he has shown himself to be incompetent on the
> economic front and there is no greater example of a complete lack of
> leadership. He would also be unwilling to move up the ladder of the
> education system if he wanted to use the one degree he does have since
> he was once heading the country. In other words, if he steps down, he
> loses the Prime Minister's salary as well as the taxpayer-funded piggy
> bank he's been using for personal matters. Plus, how is he supposed to
> live without access to a private jet to see all his friends around the
> world?!
>
> That faggot is going to hold onto power for dear life. He will have to
> be forcibly removed from office when he loses the election he will be
> forced to call at the end of 2025. Even when he loses and the
> Conservatives get a majority, he will try something to keep himself in
> power. He is that much of a tyrant.

I think he and Macron are twin sons of different mothers. Both idiots.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-12-18, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 11:05:41 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> That Scholz always looks like he's confused. I think Trudeau in Canada
>> might be in trouble as well (also constantly confused).
>
> Mutti Merkel left him a bag of shit and he wasn't the right person to
> handle it. Besides he was the oldest chancellor in 50 years at the ripe
> old age of 63. (ironic reference to the US preference for geriatric
> cases)

He just seems clueless about how dire the situation is in Germany. Are
politicians REQUIRED to have a sub-standard IQ these days?

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-12-18, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> Le 2024-12-18 à 06:09, RonB a écrit :
>> On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> Le 2024-12-17 à 15:30, RonB a écrit :
>>>> On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>> Le 2024-12-17 à 03:13, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>> On 2024-12-16, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-16 à 05:27, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>>> On 2024-12-15, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-15 à 02:23, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-12-14, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-14 à 10:44, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-12-14, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Higher performance per watt which leads to lower power use and therefore
>>>>>>>>>>>>> improved battery life. Whether Intel and AMD want to admit it or not,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people _do_ want to have a computer which can handle a whole day's work
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a single charge and which won't increase electrical bills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> While I agree that most people want longer battery life for their laptops, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> really don't think the cost of charging a laptop is that big of a concern.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not to a person who lives in an area where electricity is cheap.
>>>>>>>>>>> However, it is only going to become more expensive in places like Europe
>>>>>>>>>>> where its production depend on a resource acquired from Russia. The same
>>>>>>>>>>> way they switched to fuel-efficient or electric cars to lower their
>>>>>>>>>>> reliance on gasoline, they are probably going to switch to
>>>>>>>>>>> energy-efficient machines to reduce their need for electricity altogether.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If things are getting that dire in Europe they're going to have to learn
>>>>>>>>>> to live without computers at all.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If this were the 80s and Europe were facing these issues, I imagine that
>>>>>>>>> either Atari or Commodore would have produced a very efficient computer
>>>>>>>>> which would only need to be charged once daily. Let's not forget how
>>>>>>>>> popular the ST and the Amiga were over there while they were failing
>>>>>>>>> miserably in North America. Because both companies are dead, the most
>>>>>>>>> likely scenario is that they will move to the efficient machines made by
>>>>>>>>> Apple or equipped with Qualcomm's processors. I do not think that their
>>>>>>>>> energy crisis is going to get better anytime soon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm sorry, but I'm skeptical that the electricity needed to charge a laptop
>>>>>>>> is that big of a concern, even in Europe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In that case, you should look at how Germany's economy is tanking,
>>>>>>> specifically the result of a lack of cheap oil coming in from Russia.
>>>>>>> You can imagine that the smaller supply of oil will result in electrical
>>>>>>> production being more expensive and for the power bills to be much
>>>>>>> higher for the average German. As a result, they are not as likely as
>>>>>>> they once might have been to buy the powerful PC which requires 800W of
>>>>>>> power to play a game every hour.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have to "imagine" that the lack of cheap Russian gas is hurting
>>>>>> Germany's economy (that's plain to see every day in the international news).
>>>>>> I'm just having trouble imagining that this is resulting in angst about the
>>>>>> amount of electricity required to charge a laptop.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the price you pay for electricity doubles, you are likely to look at
>>>>> the devices in your house and make changes in the kind of machine you
>>>>> buy. The promise of charging once a day rather than keeping a machine
>>>>> plugged is likely to be a benefit to a European. The people of North
>>>>> America probably won't care as much since power is cheap here.
>>>>
>>>> Hypotheticals. I'll remain skeptical that this will be a major issue.
>>>> (Unless, of course, there is no power at all — which may be a reality in
>>>> Europe if they keep going down the destructive paths they've chosen. In that
>>>> case keeping food from spoiling will probably take priority over laptop
>>>> charging — of any kind).
>>>
>>> Only as long as whatever work you do doesn't depend on you having a
>>> computer.
>>>
>>>>>> I purposely use low power laptops and micro desktops because it's all I need
>>>>>> and I don't like the background sound of fans. These all run Intel CPUs
>>>>>> (except for the Wyse 5060 thin client desktop — it uses a low power AMD
>>>>>> CPU).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, as usual, the standard disclaimer, I don't play Windows' video games or
>>>>>> use high-end (watt gobbling) GPUs. I'm not sure, though, that ARM chips will
>>>>>> be running these games in the future. (I guess we'll see.)
>>>>>
>>>>> ARM might, but I don't care to stick around to find out. At best, I
>>>>> would imagine that ARM will play today's games as well as today's x86-64
>>>>> PCs around 2027 or so through some compatibility layer. If it happens
>>>>> sooner, all the better.
>>>>
>>>> I'm guessing the power required to run Windows complex video games will not
>>>> fit in ARM's low-power "wheelhouse." But we'll see. As I've mentioned (many
>>>> times now) I'm not a game player.
>>>
>>> ARM being low-power doesn't mean that it is low-performance. As the
>>> Apple processors have shown, they're a lot more powerful than x86-64
>>> processors on single-core applications. They're only worse on multi-core
>>> and even then, not by much. ARM basically allows people to have
>>> performance like they currently have but through much less battery power.
>>
>> I'll watch and see what happens. I don't anticipate getting an ARM laptop
>> (or desktop) in the near future — but then I don't anticipate buying any new
>> computers at all in the next ten years (or so).
>
> I'm trying to hold onto the one I have for as long as possible too, but
> I know that it's just a matter of time before the keyboard's keys stop
> working as they should and the parts to fix issue stop being available.
> When that happens, I'll have no choice but to get another one.

That's another advantage of Dell Latitudes. They made so many of them that
parts are widely available and cheap.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-12-18, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 11:09:06 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> I'll watch and see what happens. I don't anticipate getting an ARM
>> laptop (or desktop) in the near future — but then I don't anticipate
>> buying any new computers at all in the next ten years (or so).
>
> Go head and spurge. Get a Raspberry Pi 5 and you too can have a ARM
> desktop. When I cycle through the KVM switch the R Pi looks a lot like the
> Fedora or Ubuntu box without some of the cruft. It has Chromium, Firefox,
> and VS Code like the others, as well as Thonny and Mu. No mahjongg though.

I don't know if any of the applications I would want to use run on ARM
though.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-12-18, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> Le 2024-12-18 à 06:20, RonB a écrit :
>> On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> Le 2024-12-17 à 15:45, RonB a écrit :
>>>> On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>> Le 2024-12-17 à 03:15, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>> On 2024-12-16, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-16 à 05:28, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>>> On 2024-12-15, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-14 à 17:16, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 07:56:30 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Higher performance per watt which leads to lower power use and therefore
>>>>>>>>>>> improved battery life. Whether Intel and AMD want to admit it or not,
>>>>>>>>>>> people _do_ want to have a computer which can handle a whole day's work
>>>>>>>>>>> on a single charge and which won't increase electrical bills.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure. But Windows can never give it to them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It can and it already does on Snapdragon offerings.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apparently only "sort of."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is part of why I recommended that ARM enthusiasts go to Apple.
>>>>>>> Only Apple actually follows through on their radical decisions.
>>>>>>> Microsoft will announce something on Monday, do something half-assed on
>>>>>>> Tuesday and abandon the project altogether on Wednesday. Their fortune
>>>>>>> comes from the fact that people are reluctant to move away from x86-64.
>>>>>>> If and once they do, Microsoft will have a lot of trouble catching up to
>>>>>>> what Apple is doing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I get that. But does Apple run these high-end video games that require the
>>>>>> powerful (watt-gobbling) GPUs? I don't know, these video games hold no
>>>>>> interest for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a community of Apple users getting their Mx machines to run
>>>>> today's games in the same way Linux users try to get their choice OS to
>>>>> play them. For what it's worth, it's a lot easier in Linux than it is in
>>>>> MacOS. A game developed specifically for Macs will run very well on the
>>>>> hardware because it is indeed a lot more powerful than people realize,
>>>>> but those titles are very few and are likely to remain so.
>>>>
>>>> For me Macs are too limited. But I actually got Trelby (a 2012 screenwriting
>>>> application with recent updates) to work on my MacBook Air last week. Trelby
>>>> is based on Python. What took forever, though, was getting Brew and Python
>>>> installed on the old Mac (2015).
>>>>
>>>> As for Mac OS's "normal" mode, I just don't like it all. I try to exit its
>>>> terminal by typing "exit" it does exit (sort of), but the window stays there
>>>> until I close it with the trackpad. But it's still not closed really, it's
>>>> minimized (even though I chose close, not minimize). I then have to two
>>>> finger click on the application in the dock, navigate down and tap on "quit"
>>>> to finally get the damn thing to go away. In Linux I type "exit" — done.
>>>>
>>>> I get it that Mac is good at certain things (mostly for integrating with
>>>> other Apple crap) but I want to use an OS the way I want to use it — not be
>>>> constrained by an OS that thinks it's your nanny.
>>>
>>> I have to admit that I'm not a fan of how the MacOS doesn't close
>>> applications when you click on the red dot in the corner. To be fair
>>> though, this is a practise that other operating systems have borrowed
>>> because there is no real need to terminate an application and reacquire
>>> that memory at a time when there is no shortage of memory on most
>>> hardware. Keeping the application dormant so that it can be restored
>>> more quickly seems to be preferred which is why most Windows
>>> applications and a good number of Linux ones close to the tray rather
>>> than closing entirely.
>>
>> My "real need" is that, when I close an application I want it closed.
>> Period. If I ran into Linux desktops that worked this way, I wouldn't use
>> them. As for the amount of time it takes to open an application vs the time
>> it takes to "unminimize it," it's inconsequential (at least with the
>> applications I use). The only time I want to minimize applications (instead
>> of closing them) is when I'm still doing something in the minimized
>> application. That doesn't happen often. But when I do that on my Mac, I use
>> the minimize button.
>>
>> And then it comes down to, what's the point of having a minimize button if
>> the quit button just minimizes. It seems like someone is confused.
>
> I have to admit that minimize becomes useless if close just removes the
> window but keeps it running in memory. I imagine that there used to be a
> speed benefit to minimizing rather than closing, but it doesn't seem to
> be there anymore. Either way, the interface doesn't bother me as much as
> it does you.

I guess I'm a little "OCD" (if that's the right term) about some things.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

Le 2024-12-18 à 21:04, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a écrit :
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 08:50:15 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> Le 2024-12-18 à 01:00, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a écrit :
>>
>>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 18:01:02 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> ARM being low-power doesn't mean that it is low-performance.
>>>
>>> Fujitsu’s chips are proof of that
>>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/fujitsu-flaunts-144-core-monaka-cpu-2nm-and-5nm-chiplets-soic-and-cowos-packaging>.
>>> And without the upgradeability limitations of Apple, too.
>>
>> Except that Apple already has a ton of the software running natively on
>> ARM ...
>
> Sure, if Apple stuff is sufficient for you. Linux stuff runs natively
> on ARM and a bunch of other architectures, as well.

It does, but Linux's stuff is already hard to sell on x86-64 so you can
imagine how alluring it is on ARM. Nevertheless, if I were using an
ARM-based PC at the moment, I would be using Linux on it and watching to
see if Microsoft _eventually_ gets its act together. I doubt that it
ever will which is why I'm pushing people to consider Apple if ARM is
what they're looking for.

--
CrudeSausage

Le 2024-12-19 à 03:00, RonB a écrit :
> On 2024-12-18, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> Le 2024-12-18 à 06:05, RonB a écrit :
>>> On 2024-12-17, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 08:13:12 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't have to "imagine" that the lack of cheap Russian gas is hurting
>>>>> Germany's economy (that's plain to see every day in the international
>>>>> news).
>>>>> I'm just having trouble imagining that this is resulting in angst about
>>>>> the amount of electricity required to charge a laptop.
>>>>
>>>> There were other factors like immigration but Scholz's brilliant policies
>>>> got him a vote of no confidence and the government failed. February will
>>>> be interesting.
>>>
>>> That Scholz always looks like he's confused. I think Trudeau in Canada
>>> might be in trouble as well (also constantly confused).
>>
>> The media here is strongly suggesting that Trudeau will resign. They are
>> saying that there are too many factors around him pushing him in that
>> direction and that a January election is very likely. Of course, they
>> are underestimating Trudeau's self-awareness and therefore his knowledge
>> of how useless he is to the world if he loses the ultimate job. He has
>> no knowledge of law, he has shown himself to be incompetent on the
>> economic front and there is no greater example of a complete lack of
>> leadership. He would also be unwilling to move up the ladder of the
>> education system if he wanted to use the one degree he does have since
>> he was once heading the country. In other words, if he steps down, he
>> loses the Prime Minister's salary as well as the taxpayer-funded piggy
>> bank he's been using for personal matters. Plus, how is he supposed to
>> live without access to a private jet to see all his friends around the
>> world?!
>>
>> That faggot is going to hold onto power for dear life. He will have to
>> be forcibly removed from office when he loses the election he will be
>> forced to call at the end of 2025. Even when he loses and the
>> Conservatives get a majority, he will try something to keep himself in
>> power. He is that much of a tyrant.
>
> I think he and Macron are twin sons of different mothers. Both idiots.

I think that they're desperately holding onto power because they have
been tasked with promoting Schwab's World Economic Forum agenda in their
respective countries and know that it would be dead in the water if they
left. Conservative politics are incompatible with the stakeholder
capitalism (Communism) the World Economic Forum is promoting so once
they resign, Schwab loses a good part of his power.

--
CrudeSausage

Le 2024-12-19 à 03:03, RonB a écrit :
> On 2024-12-18, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> Le 2024-12-18 à 06:09, RonB a écrit :
>>> On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>> Le 2024-12-17 à 15:30, RonB a écrit :
>>>>> On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>> Le 2024-12-17 à 03:13, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>> On 2024-12-16, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-16 à 05:27, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-12-15, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-15 à 02:23, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-12-14, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-14 à 10:44, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-12-14, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Higher performance per watt which leads to lower power use and therefore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improved battery life. Whether Intel and AMD want to admit it or not,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people _do_ want to have a computer which can handle a whole day's work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a single charge and which won't increase electrical bills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> While I agree that most people want longer battery life for their laptops, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really don't think the cost of charging a laptop is that big of a concern.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to a person who lives in an area where electricity is cheap.
>>>>>>>>>>>> However, it is only going to become more expensive in places like Europe
>>>>>>>>>>>> where its production depend on a resource acquired from Russia. The same
>>>>>>>>>>>> way they switched to fuel-efficient or electric cars to lower their
>>>>>>>>>>>> reliance on gasoline, they are probably going to switch to
>>>>>>>>>>>> energy-efficient machines to reduce their need for electricity altogether.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If things are getting that dire in Europe they're going to have to learn
>>>>>>>>>>> to live without computers at all.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If this were the 80s and Europe were facing these issues, I imagine that
>>>>>>>>>> either Atari or Commodore would have produced a very efficient computer
>>>>>>>>>> which would only need to be charged once daily. Let's not forget how
>>>>>>>>>> popular the ST and the Amiga were over there while they were failing
>>>>>>>>>> miserably in North America. Because both companies are dead, the most
>>>>>>>>>> likely scenario is that they will move to the efficient machines made by
>>>>>>>>>> Apple or equipped with Qualcomm's processors. I do not think that their
>>>>>>>>>> energy crisis is going to get better anytime soon.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry, but I'm skeptical that the electricity needed to charge a laptop
>>>>>>>>> is that big of a concern, even in Europe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In that case, you should look at how Germany's economy is tanking,
>>>>>>>> specifically the result of a lack of cheap oil coming in from Russia.
>>>>>>>> You can imagine that the smaller supply of oil will result in electrical
>>>>>>>> production being more expensive and for the power bills to be much
>>>>>>>> higher for the average German. As a result, they are not as likely as
>>>>>>>> they once might have been to buy the powerful PC which requires 800W of
>>>>>>>> power to play a game every hour.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have to "imagine" that the lack of cheap Russian gas is hurting
>>>>>>> Germany's economy (that's plain to see every day in the international news).
>>>>>>> I'm just having trouble imagining that this is resulting in angst about the
>>>>>>> amount of electricity required to charge a laptop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the price you pay for electricity doubles, you are likely to look at
>>>>>> the devices in your house and make changes in the kind of machine you
>>>>>> buy. The promise of charging once a day rather than keeping a machine
>>>>>> plugged is likely to be a benefit to a European. The people of North
>>>>>> America probably won't care as much since power is cheap here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hypotheticals. I'll remain skeptical that this will be a major issue.
>>>>> (Unless, of course, there is no power at all — which may be a reality in
>>>>> Europe if they keep going down the destructive paths they've chosen. In that
>>>>> case keeping food from spoiling will probably take priority over laptop
>>>>> charging — of any kind).
>>>>
>>>> Only as long as whatever work you do doesn't depend on you having a
>>>> computer.
>>>>
>>>>>>> I purposely use low power laptops and micro desktops because it's all I need
>>>>>>> and I don't like the background sound of fans. These all run Intel CPUs
>>>>>>> (except for the Wyse 5060 thin client desktop — it uses a low power AMD
>>>>>>> CPU).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, as usual, the standard disclaimer, I don't play Windows' video games or
>>>>>>> use high-end (watt gobbling) GPUs. I'm not sure, though, that ARM chips will
>>>>>>> be running these games in the future. (I guess we'll see.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ARM might, but I don't care to stick around to find out. At best, I
>>>>>> would imagine that ARM will play today's games as well as today's x86-64
>>>>>> PCs around 2027 or so through some compatibility layer. If it happens
>>>>>> sooner, all the better.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm guessing the power required to run Windows complex video games will not
>>>>> fit in ARM's low-power "wheelhouse." But we'll see. As I've mentioned (many
>>>>> times now) I'm not a game player.
>>>>
>>>> ARM being low-power doesn't mean that it is low-performance. As the
>>>> Apple processors have shown, they're a lot more powerful than x86-64
>>>> processors on single-core applications. They're only worse on multi-core
>>>> and even then, not by much. ARM basically allows people to have
>>>> performance like they currently have but through much less battery power.
>>>
>>> I'll watch and see what happens. I don't anticipate getting an ARM laptop
>>> (or desktop) in the near future — but then I don't anticipate buying any new
>>> computers at all in the next ten years (or so).
>>
>> I'm trying to hold onto the one I have for as long as possible too, but
>> I know that it's just a matter of time before the keyboard's keys stop
>> working as they should and the parts to fix issue stop being available.
>> When that happens, I'll have no choice but to get another one.
>
> That's another advantage of Dell Latitudes. They made so many of them that
> parts are widely available and cheap.

True, but those parts will probably only be found in landfills after a
while. The same way that it becomes difficult to find parts for cars
after five years, it becomes hard to find parts for laptops after about
three.

--
CrudeSausage

Le 2024-12-19 à 03:05, RonB a écrit :
> On 2024-12-18, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 11:09:06 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>>
>>> I'll watch and see what happens. I don't anticipate getting an ARM
>>> laptop (or desktop) in the near future — but then I don't anticipate
>>> buying any new computers at all in the next ten years (or so).
>>
>> Go head and spurge. Get a Raspberry Pi 5 and you too can have a ARM
>> desktop. When I cycle through the KVM switch the R Pi looks a lot like the
>> Fedora or Ubuntu box without some of the cruft. It has Chromium, Firefox,
>> and VS Code like the others, as well as Thonny and Mu. No mahjongg though.
>
> I don't know if any of the applications I would want to use run on ARM
> though.

I'm fairly sure that the entirety of Linux software is already available
for ARM unlike Windows software. That is why Linux is far and beyond the
better option for those Snapdragon-equipped computers currently being sold.

--
CrudeSausage

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 08:45:43 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:

> Le 2024-12-18 à 21:04, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a écrit :
>
>> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 08:50:15 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> Except that Apple already has a ton of the software running natively
>>> on ARM ...
>>
>> Sure, if Apple stuff is sufficient for you. Linux stuff runs natively
>> on ARM and a bunch of other architectures, as well.
>
> It does, but Linux's stuff is already hard to sell on x86-64 so you can
> imagine how alluring it is on ARM.

Linux is the only platform that offers a full suite of software native for
both ARM and x86 (both 32- and 64-bit). Nobody else does.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 08:05:21 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> I don't know if any of the applications I would want to use run on ARM
> though.

I haven't researched on how much is available. Raspberry Pi OS is a Debian
fork although some people have put Ubuntu and other distros on the Pi.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 08:02:03 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> He just seems clueless about how dire the situation is in Germany. Are
> politicians REQUIRED to have a sub-standard IQ these days?

We do seem to be far from Kennedy's best and brightest dream of Camelot.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 07:47:57 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> I'm guessing you can always win (as they let your re-run the latest
> puzzle,
> which I never do) — but you would have to very lucky.

I did that several times by mistake by clicking the wrong button until the
dime dropped that the layout looked familiar.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

>Linux is the only platform that offers a full suite of software native for
>both ARM and x86 (both 32- and 64-bit). Nobody else does.

Payware vendors can't compete with the efficiency of FOSS.

--
'You (the lame Linux "community") have always decided on one "best
distro".' - DumFSck, lying shamelessly

Le 2024-12-19 à 14:53, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a écrit :
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 08:45:43 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> Le 2024-12-18 à 21:04, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a écrit :
>>
>>> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 08:50:15 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> Except that Apple already has a ton of the software running natively
>>>> on ARM ...
>>>
>>> Sure, if Apple stuff is sufficient for you. Linux stuff runs natively
>>> on ARM and a bunch of other architectures, as well.
>>
>> It does, but Linux's stuff is already hard to sell on x86-64 so you can
>> imagine how alluring it is on ARM.
>
> Linux is the only platform that offers a full suite of software native for
> both ARM and x86 (both 32- and 64-bit). Nobody else does.

Agreed, that's why it is a much better choice for a non-Apple ARM
computer than Windows.

--
CrudeSausage

Le 2024-12-19 à 15:34, chrisv a écrit :
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Linux is the only platform that offers a full suite of software native for
>> both ARM and x86 (both 32- and 64-bit). Nobody else does.
>
> Payware vendors can't compete with the efficiency of FOSS.

They can: they eventually implement features that the open-source world
will copy and implement later in a more rudimentary form.

--
CrudeSausage

CrudeSausage wrote:

>Le 2024-12-19 à 15:34, chrisv a écrit :
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Linux is the only platform that offers a full suite of software native for
>>> both ARM and x86 (both 32- and 64-bit). Nobody else does.
>>
>> Payware vendors can't compete with the efficiency of FOSS.
>
>They can: they eventually implement features that the open-source world
>will copy and implement later in a more rudimentary form.

So where's the payware OS and software for, say, Raspbarry Pi?

--
"two shakes of Liarmutt's pee-pee." - "Hadron"

Le 2024-12-19 à 19:28, chrisv a écrit :
> CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> Le 2024-12-19 à 15:34, chrisv a écrit :
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Linux is the only platform that offers a full suite of software native for
>>>> both ARM and x86 (both 32- and 64-bit). Nobody else does.
>>>
>>> Payware vendors can't compete with the efficiency of FOSS.
>>
>> They can: they eventually implement features that the open-source world
>> will copy and implement later in a more rudimentary form.
>
> So where's the payware OS and software for, say, Raspbarry Pi?

Where are the profits in producing an operating system and software for
such hardware?

--
CrudeSausage

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:08:03 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:

> Where are the profits in producing an operating system and software for
> such hardware?

There are no profits to be made in operating systems any more, for any
hardware. You see this in the deteriorating quality of Microsoft Windows.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 18:28:07 -0600, chrisv wrote:

> CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>>Le 2024-12-19 à 15:34, chrisv a écrit :
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Linux is the only platform that offers a full suite of software
>>>> native for both ARM and x86 (both 32- and 64-bit). Nobody else does.
>>>
>>> Payware vendors can't compete with the efficiency of FOSS.
>>
>>They can: they eventually implement features that the open-source world
>>will copy and implement later in a more rudimentary form.
>
> So where's the payware OS and software for, say, Raspbarry Pi?

Windows 11! Some people with way to much time on their hands kind of,
sort of got it to come up.

https://all3dp.com/2/install-windows-11-raspberry-pi-5/

I've got the CanaKit pictured and it's well worth the few extra bucks to
get the case, fan, power supply, and cables. It comes with Raspberry Pi OS
on a microSD which was good enough for me. I've got other projects than
see what other distros might work.

On 2024-12-18, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
> On 12/18/24 9:20 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>> Le 2024-12-18 à 06:20, RonB a écrit :
>>> On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>> Le 2024-12-17 à 15:45, RonB a écrit :
>>>>> On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>> Le 2024-12-17 à 03:15, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>> On 2024-12-16, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-16 à 05:28, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-12-15, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-14 à 17:16, Lawrence D'Oliveiro a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 07:56:30 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Higher performance per watt which leads to lower power use
>>>>>>>>>>>> and therefore
>>>>>>>>>>>> improved battery life. Whether Intel and AMD want to admit it
>>>>>>>>>>>> or not,
>>>>>>>>>>>> people _do_ want to have a computer which can handle a whole
>>>>>>>>>>>> day's work
>>>>>>>>>>>> on a single charge and which won't increase electrical bills.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. But Windows can never give it to them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It can and it already does on Snapdragon offerings.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Apparently only "sort of."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which is part of why I recommended that ARM enthusiasts go to Apple.
>>>>>>>> Only Apple actually follows through on their radical decisions.
>>>>>>>> Microsoft will announce something on Monday, do something half-
>>>>>>>> assed on
>>>>>>>> Tuesday and abandon the project altogether on Wednesday. Their
>>>>>>>> fortune
>>>>>>>> comes from the fact that people are reluctant to move away from
>>>>>>>> x86-64.
>>>>>>>> If and once they do, Microsoft will have a lot of trouble
>>>>>>>> catching up to
>>>>>>>> what Apple is doing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I get that. But does Apple run these high-end video games that
>>>>>>> require the
>>>>>>> powerful (watt-gobbling) GPUs? I don't know, these video games
>>>>>>> hold no
>>>>>>> interest for me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a community of Apple users getting their Mx machines to run
>>>>>> today's games in the same way Linux users try to get their choice
>>>>>> OS to
>>>>>> play them. For what it's worth, it's a lot easier in Linux than it
>>>>>> is in
>>>>>> MacOS. A game developed specifically for Macs will run very well on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> hardware because it is indeed a lot more powerful than people realize,
>>>>>> but those titles are very few and are likely to remain so.
>>>>>
>>>>> For me Macs are too limited. But I actually got Trelby (a 2012
>>>>> screenwriting
>>>>> application with recent updates) to work on my MacBook Air last
>>>>> week. Trelby
>>>>> is based on Python. What took forever, though, was getting Brew and
>>>>> Python
>>>>> installed on the old Mac (2015).
>>>>>
>>>>> As for Mac OS's "normal" mode, I just don't like it all. I try to
>>>>> exit its
>>>>> terminal by typing "exit" it does exit (sort of), but the window
>>>>> stays there
>>>>> until I close it with the trackpad. But it's still not closed
>>>>> really, it's
>>>>> minimized (even though I chose close, not minimize). I then have to two
>>>>> finger click on the application in the dock, navigate down and tap
>>>>> on "quit"
>>>>> to finally get the damn thing to go away. In Linux I type "exit" —
>>>>> done.
>>>>>
>>>>> I get it that Mac is good at certain things (mostly for integrating
>>>>> with
>>>>> other Apple crap) but I want to use an OS the way I want to use it —
>>>>> not be
>>>>> constrained by an OS that thinks it's your nanny.
>>>>
>>>> I have to admit that I'm not a fan of how the MacOS doesn't close
>>>> applications when you click on the red dot in the corner. To be fair
>>>> though, this is a practise that other operating systems have borrowed
>>>> because there is no real need to terminate an application and reacquire
>>>> that memory at a time when there is no shortage of memory on most
>>>> hardware. Keeping the application dormant so that it can be restored
>>>> more quickly seems to be preferred which is why most Windows
>>>> applications and a good number of Linux ones close to the tray rather
>>>> than closing entirely.
>>>
>>> My "real need" is that, when I close an application I want it closed.
>>> Period. If I ran into Linux desktops that worked this way, I wouldn't use
>>> them. As for the amount of time it takes to open an application vs the
>>> time
>>> it takes to "unminimize it," it's inconsequential (at least with the
>>> applications I use). The only time I want to minimize applications
>>> (instead
>>> of closing them) is when I'm still doing something in the minimized
>>> application. That doesn't happen often. But when I do that on my Mac,
>>> I use the minimize button.
>>>
>>> And then it comes down to, what's the point of having a minimize
>>> button if
>>> the quit button just minimizes. It seems like someone is confused.
>>
>> I have to admit that minimize becomes useless if close just removes the
>> window but keeps it running in memory. I imagine that there used to be a
>> speed benefit to minimizing rather than closing, but it doesn't seem to
>> be there anymore. Either way, the interface doesn't bother me as much as
>> it does you.
>
> Allowing Apps to remain in the background was the method years ago to
> 'speed things up' for switching between them...probably goes back as far
> as the Multifinder (classic Mac OS 5, circa 1987).
>. Thus, this seems more of a PEBKAC.

> -hh

Back in the stone age this was called a TSR. Terminate and stay resident.

--
pothead

All about snit read below. Links courtesy of Ron:

Example of Snit trolling in real time:

<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.linux.advocacy/c/biFilzgCcVg/m/eUcNGw6lP7UJ>

All about the snit troll:

<https://web.archive.org/web/20181028000459/http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/snit.html>
<https://web.archive.org/web/20190529043314/http://cosmicpenguin.com/snitlist.html>
<https://web.archive.org/web/20190529062255/http://cosmicpenguin.com/snitLieMethods.html>

CrudeSausage wrote:

>>>> Payware vendors can't compete with the efficiency of FOSS.
>>>
>>> They can: they eventually implement features that the open-source world
>>> will copy and implement later in a more rudimentary form.
>>
>> So where's the payware OS and software for, say, Raspbarry Pi?
>
>Where are the profits in producing an operating system and software for
>such hardware?

Err... It's due to the efficiency of FOSS, that there isn't any.

Sheesh.

On 2024-12-19, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> Le 2024-12-19 à 03:00, RonB a écrit :
>> On 2024-12-18, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> Le 2024-12-18 à 06:05, RonB a écrit :
>>>> On 2024-12-17, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 08:13:12 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have to "imagine" that the lack of cheap Russian gas is hurting
>>>>>> Germany's economy (that's plain to see every day in the international
>>>>>> news).
>>>>>> I'm just having trouble imagining that this is resulting in angst about
>>>>>> the amount of electricity required to charge a laptop.
>>>>>
>>>>> There were other factors like immigration but Scholz's brilliant policies
>>>>> got him a vote of no confidence and the government failed. February will
>>>>> be interesting.
>>>>
>>>> That Scholz always looks like he's confused. I think Trudeau in Canada
>>>> might be in trouble as well (also constantly confused).
>>>
>>> The media here is strongly suggesting that Trudeau will resign. They are
>>> saying that there are too many factors around him pushing him in that
>>> direction and that a January election is very likely. Of course, they
>>> are underestimating Trudeau's self-awareness and therefore his knowledge
>>> of how useless he is to the world if he loses the ultimate job. He has
>>> no knowledge of law, he has shown himself to be incompetent on the
>>> economic front and there is no greater example of a complete lack of
>>> leadership. He would also be unwilling to move up the ladder of the
>>> education system if he wanted to use the one degree he does have since
>>> he was once heading the country. In other words, if he steps down, he
>>> loses the Prime Minister's salary as well as the taxpayer-funded piggy
>>> bank he's been using for personal matters. Plus, how is he supposed to
>>> live without access to a private jet to see all his friends around the
>>> world?!
>>>
>>> That faggot is going to hold onto power for dear life. He will have to
>>> be forcibly removed from office when he loses the election he will be
>>> forced to call at the end of 2025. Even when he loses and the
>>> Conservatives get a majority, he will try something to keep himself in
>>> power. He is that much of a tyrant.
>>
>> I think he and Macron are twin sons of different mothers. Both idiots.
>
> I think that they're desperately holding onto power because they have
> been tasked with promoting Schwab's World Economic Forum agenda in their
> respective countries and know that it would be dead in the water if they
> left. Conservative politics are incompatible with the stakeholder
> capitalism (Communism) the World Economic Forum is promoting so once
> they resign, Schwab loses a good part of his power.

I think Macron is one of the less intelligent Rothschilds. So he can
probably stay as long he wants. I guess Treadle is living off his father's
name. I would like to run down Canada for putting up with him, but we just
put up with four years of a senile pervert — so I've got no ground to stand
on.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-12-19, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> Le 2024-12-19 à 03:03, RonB a écrit :
>> On 2024-12-18, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> Le 2024-12-18 à 06:09, RonB a écrit :
>>>> On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>> Le 2024-12-17 à 15:30, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>> On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-17 à 03:13, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>>> On 2024-12-16, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-16 à 05:27, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-12-15, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-15 à 02:23, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-12-14, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-12-14 à 10:44, RonB a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-12-14, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Higher performance per watt which leads to lower power use and therefore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improved battery life. Whether Intel and AMD want to admit it or not,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people _do_ want to have a computer which can handle a whole day's work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a single charge and which won't increase electrical bills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While I agree that most people want longer battery life for their laptops, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really don't think the cost of charging a laptop is that big of a concern.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to a person who lives in an area where electricity is cheap.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, it is only going to become more expensive in places like Europe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> where its production depend on a resource acquired from Russia. The same
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way they switched to fuel-efficient or electric cars to lower their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliance on gasoline, they are probably going to switch to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> energy-efficient machines to reduce their need for electricity altogether.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If things are getting that dire in Europe they're going to have to learn
>>>>>>>>>>>> to live without computers at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If this were the 80s and Europe were facing these issues, I imagine that
>>>>>>>>>>> either Atari or Commodore would have produced a very efficient computer
>>>>>>>>>>> which would only need to be charged once daily. Let's not forget how
>>>>>>>>>>> popular the ST and the Amiga were over there while they were failing
>>>>>>>>>>> miserably in North America. Because both companies are dead, the most
>>>>>>>>>>> likely scenario is that they will move to the efficient machines made by
>>>>>>>>>>> Apple or equipped with Qualcomm's processors. I do not think that their
>>>>>>>>>>> energy crisis is going to get better anytime soon.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry, but I'm skeptical that the electricity needed to charge a laptop
>>>>>>>>>> is that big of a concern, even in Europe.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In that case, you should look at how Germany's economy is tanking,
>>>>>>>>> specifically the result of a lack of cheap oil coming in from Russia.
>>>>>>>>> You can imagine that the smaller supply of oil will result in electrical
>>>>>>>>> production being more expensive and for the power bills to be much
>>>>>>>>> higher for the average German. As a result, they are not as likely as
>>>>>>>>> they once might have been to buy the powerful PC which requires 800W of
>>>>>>>>> power to play a game every hour.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't have to "imagine" that the lack of cheap Russian gas is hurting
>>>>>>>> Germany's economy (that's plain to see every day in the international news).
>>>>>>>> I'm just having trouble imagining that this is resulting in angst about the
>>>>>>>> amount of electricity required to charge a laptop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the price you pay for electricity doubles, you are likely to look at
>>>>>>> the devices in your house and make changes in the kind of machine you
>>>>>>> buy. The promise of charging once a day rather than keeping a machine
>>>>>>> plugged is likely to be a benefit to a European. The people of North
>>>>>>> America probably won't care as much since power is cheap here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hypotheticals. I'll remain skeptical that this will be a major issue.
>>>>>> (Unless, of course, there is no power at all — which may be a reality in
>>>>>> Europe if they keep going down the destructive paths they've chosen. In that
>>>>>> case keeping food from spoiling will probably take priority over laptop
>>>>>> charging — of any kind).
>>>>>
>>>>> Only as long as whatever work you do doesn't depend on you having a
>>>>> computer.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I purposely use low power laptops and micro desktops because it's all I need
>>>>>>>> and I don't like the background sound of fans. These all run Intel CPUs
>>>>>>>> (except for the Wyse 5060 thin client desktop — it uses a low power AMD
>>>>>>>> CPU).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And, as usual, the standard disclaimer, I don't play Windows' video games or
>>>>>>>> use high-end (watt gobbling) GPUs. I'm not sure, though, that ARM chips will
>>>>>>>> be running these games in the future. (I guess we'll see.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ARM might, but I don't care to stick around to find out. At best, I
>>>>>>> would imagine that ARM will play today's games as well as today's x86-64
>>>>>>> PCs around 2027 or so through some compatibility layer. If it happens
>>>>>>> sooner, all the better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm guessing the power required to run Windows complex video games will not
>>>>>> fit in ARM's low-power "wheelhouse." But we'll see. As I've mentioned (many
>>>>>> times now) I'm not a game player.
>>>>>
>>>>> ARM being low-power doesn't mean that it is low-performance. As the
>>>>> Apple processors have shown, they're a lot more powerful than x86-64
>>>>> processors on single-core applications. They're only worse on multi-core
>>>>> and even then, not by much. ARM basically allows people to have
>>>>> performance like they currently have but through much less battery power.
>>>>
>>>> I'll watch and see what happens. I don't anticipate getting an ARM laptop
>>>> (or desktop) in the near future — but then I don't anticipate buying any new
>>>> computers at all in the next ten years (or so).
>>>
>>> I'm trying to hold onto the one I have for as long as possible too, but
>>> I know that it's just a matter of time before the keyboard's keys stop
>>> working as they should and the parts to fix issue stop being available.
>>> When that happens, I'll have no choice but to get another one.
>>
>> That's another advantage of Dell Latitudes. They made so many of them that
>> parts are widely available and cheap.
>
> True, but those parts will probably only be found in landfills after a
> while. The same way that it becomes difficult to find parts for cars
> after five years, it becomes hard to find parts for laptops after about
> three.