-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>On 11/23/24 6:11 PM, Joel wrote:
>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have 32 GB RAM and a 1 TB NVMe drive, admittedly my CPU is older,
>> but one doesn't always need more horsepower, I didn't break the bank
>> to get what I have.
>
>Except that suitability depends on what one's use case is, and it
>doesn't matter if we're talking about PCs or cars, or whatever.
>
>So yeah, if you're just drooling on USENET, then a 2017 vintage Mac
>laptop would do you perfectly fine ... I'll sell you one for $199.
>
>OTOH, if your work products merit completing them in a timely fashion,
>then computers are just like race cars: "Speed cost money. How fast can
>you afford to go?"

My CPU is a 2020 model, 10th gen Intel. My motherboard can accept
10th or 11th gen CPUs.

>>>>>> I paid less to get high-end gear.
>
>Please remind me: just what's the specs of this claimed "high-end" gear?

I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, I have a WD Blue NVMe
drive, quality components through and through. You have to assemble
your own hardware, to get a good value. Apple and other higher-end
OEMs are gouging the crap out of people.

>>>>> You paid a price in other ways...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...and you know it.
>>>>>
>>>>> What makes Apple's hardware "crap"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cost is NOT an answer to that question.
>>>>
>>>> The price I paid in other ways is called using my brain. Apple drones
>>>> are sheep. Cost is the answer to the question because not everyone
>>>> can afford to purchase these elite devices from Apple, not everyone
>>>> would want to either given the goofiness of the OS. Linux is
>>>> difficult, I admit, unless one uses Mint casually, but you get so much
>>>> more bang for buck.
>>>
>>> Again, you fail to actually answer the question about in what way
>>> Apple's hardware is supposedly "crap".
>>>
>>> Try again.
>
>Seems that Joel's also not factored in his personal costs either, such
>as the value of not having to worry about stuff.

I live by my computer. As do a lot of people, who are less techy.
They pay through the nose, for the privilege. I don't.

>> It's not crap in a literal sense, it's fine enough equipment, but
>> overpriced. One is paying for the Apple motif, more than the real
>> value of the hardware and software. It's a racket.
>
>Now not saying that you're a cheapskate <g>, but since you've raised
>this as a 'cost' based claim, even if you really mean 'value', what's
>your objective metrics which support this?
>
>What level of 'high-end' hardware at what initial deployment cost?
>
>And the other factor is ... for how long will it stay in service for?
>
>And since the future is usually very rosy, what's your track record on
>your prior hardware lifespans, and at what cost per unit time?
>
>For example, a $1500 PC that's still worth $100 when its 7 years old
>works out to $200/year: how does your historical baseline compare to
>that which you're being clearly critical of?

I have a 650 watt power supply. I will replace the CPU fan,
eventually, that's about the extent of the maintenance to expect.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>>> Everyone who doesn't see the world EXACTLY the way you see it is a
>>>>> sucker and a loser...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...right?
>>>>
>>>> It's not quite like that, no, it should be perhaps, but reality is
>>>> reality, I realize.
>>>
>>> Which is basically you saying "yes" but not wanting to make it obvious.
>>>
>>> You literally just said that everyone in the world "should be" consider
>>> a loser.
>>
>> In a perfect world, not in the real one.
>
>I see.
>
>In your "perfect world" you are the final arbiter of who is a "loser".
>
>Is that your position?

Haters gonna hate but they can't refute my knowledge and wisdom. I am
the mortal being of the divine.

>>>> M$ turned Windows 10 into a beta test of what
>>>> became Win11. That means supported versions basically *are* Win11
>>>> Light. Needing modern storage, realistically. Idiots with old
>>>> desktops and laptops, refusing to think about switching to Linux, are
>>>> creating landfill and/or third-world flea market material. All they
>>>> would have to do is figure out how to install Mint. It's so simple,
>>>> but they beLIEve they need M$ or Apple. Just pathetic.
>>> There is nothing magic about Linux that prevents old machines from
>>> becoming too slow for modern software.
>>
>> Linux gives life to old computers. My computer is relatively new, and
>> still benefits from the advantages of Linux, but it's *essential* on
>> aging hardware, that chokes on Winblows 10, which is almost out of
>> support anyway.
>That may be an argument for problems in Windows.
>
>It's not an argument that only Linux can work well on old hardware.

Oh, if you want to run unsupported Windows versions, sure, you can do
that, but then where are you? It's ludicrous, how Winblows 10 still
pretends you can run it on a single-core, 2 GB RAM, spinning hard
drive, laughable.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:

>>>What's interesting in terms of herd mentality psychology, is not so much
>>>that Apple has the worst hotfix support in the industry - but that the
>>>Apple trolls (who don't actually know anything) think it has the best.
>>
>> You might get your "hotfixes" from M$, but not real support of your
>> ancient computer, anything that came with Vista is going to have
>> painfully slow storage, SATA SSDs are not the miracle that NVMe ones
>> are, when they're connected to ancient motherboards, or even in
>> general. M$ doesn't care about you, they want you to buy a whole new
>> system every few years. My computer was ideal for the Windows 11
>> upgrade, in 2021, but it would suck if I still had it today, which is
>> why I've been on Linux for a year.
>
>Hi Joel,
>I'm curious why you say that given my 2009 PC works great on Windows 10.
>but I defer to your greater knowledge level so I'd like to ask for advice.
>
>What commands do you want me to run to display my system for you now?
>And when you see my "ancient" system from 2009, what's wrong with it?
> AMD Phenom II X4 810 Processor 2.6GHz 16GB RAM
>
>My "storage" has been replaced long ago but it's a normal disc drive.
>My graphics card has also been replaced. And a memory stick went bad.
>Other than that, the system is original. It works fine for me in Win10.
>
>Why would you say my system does not run fine when I think it does.
>Maybe we're looking at different metrics?
>
>I'm NOT saying it's a powerhouse - but it runs Windows 10 just fine.
>Doesn't it?
>
>What's wrong with it in your opinion that would make Win10 NOT run fine?
>
>I just ran Win+I and screenshotted my "system" to post it below for you.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/t4P7fZZg/system01.jpg>
>
>Why do you feel that system is "painfully slow" when I don't feel that?
>What other command do you want me to run to screenshot my system hardware?
>
>I'm curious since you know more than I do on hardware so I wish to learn.
>Here's the Win+R > msinfo32 results which I screenshot for you also.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/63gpYnVz/system02.jpg>
>
>Would you kindly take a look and let me know why you think it won't run
>Windows 10 "just fine" (where I know it's no longer a powerhouse PC)?
>
>Thanks! I love to learn from others who know more than I do.

This is interesting, actually, because your system is not unlike my
previous one, a four-core four-thread CPU, with up to 16 GB RAM. I
would wager that your system would perform better under Linux, than
Win10, but if you are satisfied with what you have, I understand.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-11-23 17:16, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Everyone who doesn't see the world EXACTLY the way you see it is a
>>>>>> sucker and a loser...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...right?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not quite like that, no, it should be perhaps, but reality is
>>>>> reality, I realize.
>>>>
>>>> Which is basically you saying "yes" but not wanting to make it obvious.
>>>>
>>>> You literally just said that everyone in the world "should be" consider
>>>> a loser.
>>>
>>> In a perfect world, not in the real one.
>>
>> I see.
>>
>> In your "perfect world" you are the final arbiter of who is a "loser".
>>
>> Is that your position?
>
>
> Haters gonna hate but they can't refute my knowledge and wisdom. I am
> the mortal being of the divine.

Yeah...

....you're just an ass.

>
>
>>>>> M$ turned Windows 10 into a beta test of what
>>>>> became Win11. That means supported versions basically *are* Win11
>>>>> Light. Needing modern storage, realistically. Idiots with old
>>>>> desktops and laptops, refusing to think about switching to Linux, are
>>>>> creating landfill and/or third-world flea market material. All they
>>>>> would have to do is figure out how to install Mint. It's so simple,
>>>>> but they beLIEve they need M$ or Apple. Just pathetic.
>>>> There is nothing magic about Linux that prevents old machines from
>>>> becoming too slow for modern software.
>>>
>>> Linux gives life to old computers. My computer is relatively new, and
>>> still benefits from the advantages of Linux, but it's *essential* on
>>> aging hardware, that chokes on Winblows 10, which is almost out of
>>> support anyway.
>> That may be an argument for problems in Windows.
>>
>> It's not an argument that only Linux can work well on old hardware.
>
>
> Oh, if you want to run unsupported Windows versions, sure, you can do
> that, but then where are you? It's ludicrous, how Winblows 10 still
> pretends you can run it on a single-core, 2 GB RAM, spinning hard
> drive, laughable.

I knew you wouldn't get it.

On 2024-11-23 17:03, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Now, why do you claim their software is "crap"...
>>>>
>>>> ...or is that just more of your bullshit?
>>>
>>> The software is where it really gets weird, the goofy Apple-centric
>>> interface, it's a fine Unix system under the hood to be sure, but who
>>> cares when Linux is a thing?
>> That's not an answer to why you claimed:
>>
>> 'You're a sucker if you use Apple's crap hardware and software.'
>>
>> So I'll ask again.
>
>
> OK, well, you're paying a premium price for junk software. Is that
> clear enough?
>

You haven't yet explained WHY it is "junk software".

That much is entirely clear.

Alan wrote:

> some kook wrote:
>>
>> Haters gonna hate but they can't refute my knowledge and wisdom. I am
>> the mortal being of the divine.
>
>Yeah...
>
>...you're just an ass.

And they're *still* going around and around, folks.

Yet some people wonder why I just cut things off, when someone is
being unreasonable.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>> Why in the hell would Microsoft care if you bought a "whole new system
>>> every few years"?
>>
>> Because that's what Winblows *is*, a marketing scheme for new
>> computers. Linux is the OS that supports hardware comprehensively.
>
>And how would such a scheme benefit Microsoft?

They make money from Windows through OEMs, but also gain users of
Office and other software and services. I'm not talking out of my
ass, I ran Win10 on my old computer, and saw how it had metamorphosed.
The very same USB media I used to initially install on my new
computer, but two very different results, in 2021.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-11-23 17:49, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Why in the hell would Microsoft care if you bought a "whole new system
>>>> every few years"?
>>>
>>> Because that's what Winblows *is*, a marketing scheme for new
>>> computers. Linux is the OS that supports hardware comprehensively.
>>
>> And how would such a scheme benefit Microsoft?
>
>
> They make money from Windows through OEMs, but also gain users of

Trivial amounts perhaps.

> Office and other software and services. I'm not talking out of my

No. A user getting "whole new system" doesn't result in any gain.

> ass, I ran Win10 on my old computer, and saw how it had metamorphosed.

So you have a personal anecdote and nothing more.

Got it.

> The very same USB media I used to initially install on my new
> computer, but two very different results, in 2021.
>

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>> In your "perfect world" you are the final arbiter of who is a "loser".
>>>
>>> Is that your position?
>>
>> Haters gonna hate but they can't refute my knowledge and wisdom. I am
>> the mortal being of the divine.
>
>Yeah...
>
>...you're just an ass.

I'm edgy, yeah. But I can back up what I'm saying. M$ and Apple are
about money. Linux is about freedom.

>>>> Linux gives life to old computers. My computer is relatively new, and
>>>> still benefits from the advantages of Linux, but it's *essential* on
>>>> aging hardware, that chokes on Winblows 10, which is almost out of
>>>> support anyway.
>>> That may be an argument for problems in Windows.
>>>
>>> It's not an argument that only Linux can work well on old hardware.
>>
>> Oh, if you want to run unsupported Windows versions, sure, you can do
>> that, but then where are you? It's ludicrous, how Winblows 10 still
>> pretends you can run it on a single-core, 2 GB RAM, spinning hard
>> drive, laughable.
>
>I knew you wouldn't get it.

You're the one not getting it. I'm speaking hard truths.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>> you claimed:
>>>
>>> 'You're a sucker if you use Apple's crap hardware and software.'
>>>
>>> So I'll ask again.
>>
>> OK, well, you're paying a premium price for junk software. Is that
>> clear enough?
>
>You haven't yet explained WHY it is "junk software".
>
>That much is entirely clear.

It's a toy, it's not serious, I mean you have very specific
applications for macOS that are large, e.g. video editing, but not
everyone does these things. For the average personal-computer user,
it's just wasted potential, you have this nice hardware running
inferior software, it's powered by Unix to be sure, and has that
potential within it, but most never realize that.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-11-23 18:10, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>> you claimed:
>>>>
>>>> 'You're a sucker if you use Apple's crap hardware and software.'
>>>>
>>>> So I'll ask again.
>>>
>>> OK, well, you're paying a premium price for junk software. Is that
>>> clear enough?
>>
>> You haven't yet explained WHY it is "junk software".
>>
>> That much is entirely clear.
>
>
> It's a toy, it's not serious, I mean you have very specific

In what way is it "not serious"?

> applications for macOS that are large, e.g. video editing, but not
> everyone does these things. For the average personal-computer user,
> it's just wasted potential, you have this nice hardware running
> inferior software, it's powered by Unix to be sure, and has that
> potential within it, but most never realize that.
So it's "nice hardware", now?

You called it "crap hardware" just a very short while ago.

Try again.

On 2024-11-23 17:13, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 11/23/24 6:11 PM, Joel wrote:
>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have 32 GB RAM and a 1 TB NVMe drive, admittedly my CPU is older,
>>> but one doesn't always need more horsepower, I didn't break the bank
>>> to get what I have.
>>
>> Except that suitability depends on what one's use case is, and it
>> doesn't matter if we're talking about PCs or cars, or whatever.
>>
>> So yeah, if you're just drooling on USENET, then a 2017 vintage Mac
>> laptop would do you perfectly fine ... I'll sell you one for $199.
>>
>> OTOH, if your work products merit completing them in a timely fashion,
>> then computers are just like race cars: "Speed cost money. How fast can
>> you afford to go?"
>
>
> My CPU is a 2020 model, 10th gen Intel. My motherboard can accept
> 10th or 11th gen CPUs.
>
>
>>>>>>> I paid less to get high-end gear.
>>
>> Please remind me: just what's the specs of this claimed "high-end" gear?
>
>
> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, I have a WD Blue NVMe
> drive, quality components through and through. You have to assemble
> your own hardware, to get a good value. Apple and other higher-end
> OEMs are gouging the crap out of people.

And what do you charge for your time when you're working for other people?

>
>
>>>>>> You paid a price in other ways...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...and you know it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What makes Apple's hardware "crap"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cost is NOT an answer to that question.
>>>>>
>>>>> The price I paid in other ways is called using my brain. Apple drones
>>>>> are sheep. Cost is the answer to the question because not everyone
>>>>> can afford to purchase these elite devices from Apple, not everyone
>>>>> would want to either given the goofiness of the OS. Linux is
>>>>> difficult, I admit, unless one uses Mint casually, but you get so much
>>>>> more bang for buck.
>>>>
>>>> Again, you fail to actually answer the question about in what way
>>>> Apple's hardware is supposedly "crap".
>>>>
>>>> Try again.
>>
>> Seems that Joel's also not factored in his personal costs either, such
>> as the value of not having to worry about stuff.
>
>
> I live by my computer. As do a lot of people, who are less techy.
> They pay through the nose, for the privilege. I don't.

You pay for it in your time.

>
>
>>> It's not crap in a literal sense, it's fine enough equipment, but
>>> overpriced. One is paying for the Apple motif, more than the real
>>> value of the hardware and software. It's a racket.
>>
>> Now not saying that you're a cheapskate <g>, but since you've raised
>> this as a 'cost' based claim, even if you really mean 'value', what's
>> your objective metrics which support this?
>>
>> What level of 'high-end' hardware at what initial deployment cost?
>>
>> And the other factor is ... for how long will it stay in service for?
>>
>> And since the future is usually very rosy, what's your track record on
>> your prior hardware lifespans, and at what cost per unit time?
>>
>> For example, a $1500 PC that's still worth $100 when its 7 years old
>> works out to $200/year: how does your historical baseline compare to
>> that which you're being clearly critical of?
>
>
> I have a 650 watt power supply. I will replace the CPU fan,
> eventually, that's about the extent of the maintenance to expect.
How is that even relevant to the questions you were just asked?

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>>> Why in the hell would Microsoft care if you bought a "whole new system
>>>>> every few years"?
>>>>
>>>> Because that's what Winblows *is*, a marketing scheme for new
>>>> computers. Linux is the OS that supports hardware comprehensively.
>>>
>>> And how would such a scheme benefit Microsoft?
>>
>> They make money from Windows through OEMs, but also gain users of
>
>Trivial amounts perhaps.

I wouldn't call it their primary revenue stream, yeah.

>> Office and other software and services. I'm not talking out of my
>
>No. A user getting "whole new system" doesn't result in any gain.

Sure it does, they get newer versions of software, too.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-11-23 18:07, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>> In your "perfect world" you are the final arbiter of who is a "loser".
>>>>
>>>> Is that your position?
>>>
>>> Haters gonna hate but they can't refute my knowledge and wisdom. I am
>>> the mortal being of the divine.
>>
>> Yeah...
>>
>> ...you're just an ass.
>
>
> I'm edgy, yeah. But I can back up what I'm saying. M$ and Apple are
> about money. Linux is about freedom.

No. You're not edgy.

You're just overly impressed with yourself.

>
>
>>>>> Linux gives life to old computers. My computer is relatively new, and
>>>>> still benefits from the advantages of Linux, but it's *essential* on
>>>>> aging hardware, that chokes on Winblows 10, which is almost out of
>>>>> support anyway.
>>>> That may be an argument for problems in Windows.
>>>>
>>>> It's not an argument that only Linux can work well on old hardware.
>>>
>>> Oh, if you want to run unsupported Windows versions, sure, you can do
>>> that, but then where are you? It's ludicrous, how Winblows 10 still
>>> pretends you can run it on a single-core, 2 GB RAM, spinning hard
>>> drive, laughable.
>>
>> I knew you wouldn't get it.
>
>
> You're the one not getting it. I'm speaking hard truths.

No. You're not getting the point I just made to you.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 15:27:44 -0600, chrisv wrote:

> Only assholes ridicule others for their choices. Within reason,
> anyway. Some choices are worthy of ridicule, but buying Apple
> products sure isn't one of them.

Well, it's well known that people habitually trade in iPhones, right?
And that people stand in long lines outside the Apple store, right?

Their choice is clearly that they can't wait to trade in their iPhone,
right? So that they can get rid of last year's model for today's model.

Right?

Personally, if they were getting that new phone for free, then I would NOT
ridicule their choice to get rid of their old phone as soon as they could.

And, personally, if they were getting full price on that old iPhone such
that a new iPhone cost absolutely nothing, again I would NOT ridicule them.

But... if they're actually waiting on long lines outside the Apple store
not only to ditch last year's iPhone at a fraction of what they paid for
it, but also to buy that new iPhone at two or three times its value...

Then....

Then I'd ridicule their choices.

Rightly so.

On 2024-11-23 18:18, Mickey D wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 15:27:44 -0600, chrisv wrote:
>
>> Only assholes ridicule others for their choices. Within reason,
>> anyway. Some choices are worthy of ridicule, but buying Apple
>> products sure isn't one of them.
>
> Well, it's well known that people habitually trade in iPhones, right?

People "habitually" by new smartphones, yes.

> And that people stand in long lines outside the Apple store, right?

Some do. What of it?

>
> Their choice is clearly that they can't wait to trade in their iPhone,
> right? So that they can get rid of last year's model for today's model.
> > Right?

Nope. You've made an unsupported jump in your "logic" there.

>
> Personally, if they were getting that new phone for free, then I would NOT
> ridicule their choice to get rid of their old phone as soon as they could.
>
> And, personally, if they were getting full price on that old iPhone such
> that a new iPhone cost absolutely nothing, again I would NOT ridicule them.
>
> But... if they're actually waiting on long lines outside the Apple store
> not only to ditch last year's iPhone at a fraction of what they paid for
> it, but also to buy that new iPhone at two or three times its value...
>
> Then....
>
> Then I'd ridicule their choices.
>
> Rightly so.

But there's an "if" in there you don't acknowledge.

On 2024-11-23 18:14, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Why in the hell would Microsoft care if you bought a "whole new system
>>>>>> every few years"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Because that's what Winblows *is*, a marketing scheme for new
>>>>> computers. Linux is the OS that supports hardware comprehensively.
>>>>
>>>> And how would such a scheme benefit Microsoft?
>>>
>>> They make money from Windows through OEMs, but also gain users of
>>
>> Trivial amounts perhaps.
>
>
> I wouldn't call it their primary revenue stream, yeah.
>
>
>>> Office and other software and services. I'm not talking out of my
>>
>> No. A user getting "whole new system" doesn't result in any gain.
>
>
> Sure it does, they get newer versions of software, too.
You need to reexamine who Microsoft currently offers it's software and
services.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>>> you claimed:
>>>>>
>>>>> 'You're a sucker if you use Apple's crap hardware and software.'
>>>>>
>>>>> So I'll ask again.
>>>>
>>>> OK, well, you're paying a premium price for junk software. Is that
>>>> clear enough?
>>>
>>> You haven't yet explained WHY it is "junk software".
>>>
>>> That much is entirely clear.
>>
>> It's a toy, it's not serious, I mean you have very specific
>
>In what way is it "not serious"?

They just aren't very good programmers, they don't have M$'s elaborate
motif.

>> applications for macOS that are large, e.g. video editing, but not
>> everyone does these things. For the average personal-computer user,
>> it's just wasted potential, you have this nice hardware running
>> inferior software, it's powered by Unix to be sure, and has that
>> potential within it, but most never realize that.
>So it's "nice hardware", now?
>
>You called it "crap hardware" just a very short while ago.
>
>Try again.

It's crap relative to cost, not poor quality.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-11-23 15:20, Joel wrote:
> Isaac Montara <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Windows 10 released June 2015 so it is supported for over ten years.
>> Microsoft full hotfix support currently is for two concurrent releases.
>
>
> It should be noted that Windows 10 in 2015 was nothing, *NOTHING* like
> it is now, it was a minor upgrade to Win8.1, initially, but now is
> practically as bloated as Win11. M$ doesn't care about you.
>

I'd like to see your support for the claim that:

"it [Windows 10] was a minor upgrade to Win8.1"

On 11/23/24 8:13 PM, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 11/23/24 6:11 PM, Joel wrote:
>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have 32 GB RAM and a 1 TB NVMe drive, admittedly my CPU is older,
>>> but one doesn't always need more horsepower, I didn't break the bank
>>> to get what I have.
>>
>> Except that suitability depends on what one's use case is, and it
>> doesn't matter if we're talking about PCs or cars, or whatever.
>>
>> So yeah, if you're just drooling on USENET, then a 2017 vintage Mac
>> laptop would do you perfectly fine ... I'll sell you one for $199.
>>
>> OTOH, if your work products merit completing them in a timely fashion,
>> then computers are just like race cars: "Speed cost money. How fast can
>> you afford to go?"
>
>
> My CPU is a 2020 model, 10th gen Intel. My motherboard can accept
> 10th or 11th gen CPUs.

A "10th gen" Intel CPU would be 'Comet Lake' and there's many variations
therein .. from an Xeon or i9 all the way down to Celeron (its below the
i3 and Pentium Gold) .. so which one does your "high-end" system have?

Here's the list:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Lake>

And how does it benchmark against the Mac Studio that you've mentioned?

I'll cut you a break by choosing the lowest end CPU ever sold in the
Studio: the M1 Max cored 2,418 single-core and 12,629 for multi-core in
the Geekbench 6 CPU Benchmark. FYI, the current model with the upper
tier M2 Ultra is single-core 2,819 & multi-core 21,802.

>>>>>>> I paid less to get high-end gear.
>>
>> Please remind me: just what's the specs of this claimed "high-end" gear?
>
> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...

Sorry, doesn't mean much to me: what's its salient characteristics
which relate to it being "high-end"? For example, is it PCI5 or 4?

> ... I have a WD Blue NVMe drive, quality components through and through.

I think you mentioned that its 1TB, right? And since you didn't mention
it, I'm assuming the motherboard has it as a PCI4 single slot, so no
boot drive RAID0 configuration. So then what does that benchmark at in,
say, Blackmagic's Disk Speed Test software?

How much above 7,000 MB/sec does it run while comparing it to the
Studio? After all, you did claim "high-end", so you certainly must have
done some confirmation testing rather than to just "trust me" assume.

> You have to assemble
> your own hardware, to get a good value. Apple and other higher-end
> OEMs are gouging the crap out of people.

There are some profit-centers to avoid for sure, but the adage of a DIY
"White Box" generic PCs must always be profoundly cheaper is obsolete:
a former (now retired) colleague used to run a side business where he
fabricated "White Box" generic PCs to sell at a discount, but he shut
down that business close to 20 years ago now, because he found that the
competition within the OEM's resulted in narrow enough margins such that
he wasn't really making money for his efforts...IIRC, he shut it down
when it dropped below $50/unit for all of his assembly time.

>>>>>> You paid a price in other ways...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...and you know it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What makes Apple's hardware "crap"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cost is NOT an answer to that question.
>>>>>
>>>>> The price I paid in other ways is called using my brain. Apple drones
>>>>> are sheep. Cost is the answer to the question because not everyone
>>>>> can afford to purchase these elite devices from Apple, not everyone
>>>>> would want to either given the goofiness of the OS. Linux is
>>>>> difficult, I admit, unless one uses Mint casually, but you get so much
>>>>> more bang for buck.
>>>>
>>>> Again, you fail to actually answer the question about in what way
>>>> Apple's hardware is supposedly "crap".
>>>>
>>>> Try again.
>>
>> Seems that Joel's also not factored in his personal costs either, such
>> as the value of not having to worry about stuff.
>
>
> I live by my computer. As do a lot of people, who are less techy.
> They pay through the nose, for the privilege. I don't.

Not really what I was referring to. Suffice to say that some people
consider their DIY assembly time to be free because they enjoy it as a
hobby ... that's fine, so long as they make that claim clearly upfront.
Where it gets disingenuous is when they try to claim their time costs
nothing, but they won't spend an hour of their supposedly "free" time to
come mow my lawn to prove that they don't value their time.

>>> It's not crap in a literal sense, it's fine enough equipment, but
>>> overpriced. One is paying for the Apple motif, more than the real
>>> value of the hardware and software. It's a racket.
>>
>> Now not saying that you're a cheapskate <g>, but since you've raised
>> this as a 'cost' based claim, even if you really mean 'value', what's
>> your objective metrics which support this?
>>
>> What level of 'high-end' hardware at what initial deployment cost?
>>
>> And the other factor is ... for how long will it stay in service for?
>>
>> And since the future is usually very rosy, what's your track record on
>> your prior hardware lifespans, and at what cost per unit time?
>>
>> For example, a $1500 PC that's still worth $100 when its 7 years old
>> works out to $200/year: how does your historical baseline compare to
>> that which you're being clearly critical of?

Hmm...a whole bunch of silence here.
Hope it was just overlooked by accident.

> I have a 650 watt power supply. I will replace the CPU fan,
> eventually, that's about the extent of the maintenance to expect.

Worrying about rightsizing the PSU?
And CPU fans?

Oh, right: I *used to* have PCs that had those design issues.

-hh

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>On 2024-11-23 15:20, Joel wrote:
>> Isaac Montara <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Windows 10 released June 2015 so it is supported for over ten years.
>>> Microsoft full hotfix support currently is for two concurrent releases.
>>
>> It should be noted that Windows 10 in 2015 was nothing, *NOTHING* like
>> it is now, it was a minor upgrade to Win8.1, initially, but now is
>> practically as bloated as Win11. M$ doesn't care about you.
>
>I'd like to see your support for the claim that:
>
>"it [Windows 10] was a minor upgrade to Win8.1"

Uh, I had Windows 8.x and early Windows 10 on my old computer. I know
what the fuck I'm talking about, that's why I'm reading this thread in
COLA, where we debate OSes.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-11-23 17:18, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-11-23 15:20, Joel wrote:
>>> Isaac Montara <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Windows 10 released June 2015 so it is supported for over ten years.
>>>> Microsoft full hotfix support currently is for two concurrent releases.
>>>
>>> It should be noted that Windows 10 in 2015 was nothing, *NOTHING* like
>>> it is now, it was a minor upgrade to Win8.1, initially, but now is
>>> practically as bloated as Win11. M$ doesn't care about you.
>>
>> I'd like to see your support for the claim that:
>>
>> "it [Windows 10] was a minor upgrade to Win8.1"
>
>
> Uh, I had Windows 8.x and early Windows 10 on my old computer. I know
> what the fuck I'm talking about, that's why I'm reading this thread in
> COLA, where we debate OSes.
>

So what you have is purely a personal anecdote.

Got it.

On 11/23/24 2:31 PM, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 11/23/24 11:35 AM, Andrew wrote:
>>> Joel wrote on Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:17:49 -0500 :
>>>
>>>>> As I said, my desktop is from 2009 and it runs Windows 10 just fine.
>>>>> This is well known information as I've posted using it for years.
>>>>
>>>> You have low standards.
>>
>> It merely depends on what & where one chooses to make a priority.
>
>
> I saw 20H2 on my old machine, assembled in 2010, first gen i5. I
> never even got to the point of installing it on an SSD for it, I had
> given up on the idea for other reasons by then. Mint was great,
> briefly, on the SSD, I had the system as refreshed as could be, maxed
> at 16 GB RAM with a SATA SSD, great old machine for Linux, but Win10
> would've sucked even with all that.

Okay, so how much did it cost you in 2010, and when did you abandon its
original configuration to switch it over to Mint?

That's enough to provide a baseline "value" metric on your IT costs.

-hh

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>On 2024-11-23 17:18, Joel wrote:
>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>> On 2024-11-23 15:20, Joel wrote:
>>>> Isaac Montara <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Windows 10 released June 2015 so it is supported for over ten years.
>>>>> Microsoft full hotfix support currently is for two concurrent releases.
>>>>
>>>> It should be noted that Windows 10 in 2015 was nothing, *NOTHING* like
>>>> it is now, it was a minor upgrade to Win8.1, initially, but now is
>>>> practically as bloated as Win11. M$ doesn't care about you.
>>>
>>> I'd like to see your support for the claim that:
>>>
>>> "it [Windows 10] was a minor upgrade to Win8.1"
>>
>> Uh, I had Windows 8.x and early Windows 10 on my old computer. I know
>> what the fuck I'm talking about, that's why I'm reading this thread in
>> COLA, where we debate OSes.
>
>So what you have is purely a personal anecdote.
>
>Got it.

No, it's not an anecdote. I was a comp sci major, while I was in
college. I pay attention to finer details. I know what Windows 10
was in 2015, vs. 2020 and later.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-11-23 18:12, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-11-23 17:18, Joel wrote:
>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-11-23 15:20, Joel wrote:
>>>>> Isaac Montara <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Windows 10 released June 2015 so it is supported for over ten years.
>>>>>> Microsoft full hotfix support currently is for two concurrent releases.
>>>>>
>>>>> It should be noted that Windows 10 in 2015 was nothing, *NOTHING* like
>>>>> it is now, it was a minor upgrade to Win8.1, initially, but now is
>>>>> practically as bloated as Win11. M$ doesn't care about you.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to see your support for the claim that:
>>>>
>>>> "it [Windows 10] was a minor upgrade to Win8.1"
>>>
>>> Uh, I had Windows 8.x and early Windows 10 on my old computer. I know
>>> what the fuck I'm talking about, that's why I'm reading this thread in
>>> COLA, where we debate OSes.
>>
>> So what you have is purely a personal anecdote.
>>
>> Got it.
>
>
> No, it's not an anecdote.

Yes. It was.

> I was a comp sci major, while I was in
> college. I pay attention to finer details. I know what Windows 10
> was in 2015, vs. 2020 and later.
That is precisely what a personal anecdote is.