On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 07:24:23 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> There was almost no difference between using Excel vs Calc even back
> then. But why anyone would use a spreadsheet for a job better suited to
> a database is still a mystery to me.

My experience with Excel users is 'if you have a hammer everything looks
like a nail'. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a spreadsheet used as
intended.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Oct 2024 23:11:20 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/28/microsoft-excel-spreadsheet-program-40-years
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought you people believed that the media, particularly Liberal
>>>>> media like The Guardian, were a bunch of liars?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or are they suddenly credible when they say something you believe in?
>>>>
>>>> "readers"
>>>
>>> Believable, sober, credible readers? Not credulous dupes of Liberal
>>> media? Assuming this publication isn’t lying about what its readers say
>>> in the first place?
>>>
>>> Is that really what you believe?
>
>Do your MAGA friends know you’re quoting The Guardian as a reputable
>information source?
>
>If they did, they would never let you live it down!

DFS is not MAGA. You gotta give him that much credit. He's a racist,
in some respects, but not a dumbfuck red cap wearer.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 10/29/24 9:18 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
> On 2024-10-29 3:24 a.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-10-28, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> On 2024-10-28 12:48 p.m., DFS wrote:
>>>> On 10/28/2024 11:19 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-10-28 10:24 a.m., DFS wrote:
>>>>>> "‘I grew up with it’: readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft
>>>>>> Excel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   From baby names to wedding planning, fans of the 40-year-old
>>>>>> spreadsheet program reveal how it has transformed their lives"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/28/microsoft-
>>>>>> excel-spreadsheet-program-40-years
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MS is doomed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Others will grow up with Calc...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I pity the fools...
>>>
>>> People only think Excel is better if they're aware of its existence. My
>>> students' lack of awareness seems to represent the greater society: they
>>> don't know what they're using, they just know that it does spreadsheets.
>>> If manufacturers were to bundle LibreOffice rather than Microsoft
>>> Office, only a few would even notice that it's not the same thing.
>>
>> In the mid-2000s a regional print shop I worked for moved from Microsoft
>> Office to OpenOffice (LibreOffice wasn't around yet). My main use for
>> Excel
>> was taking crappy (poorly designed and updated) address spreadsheets and
>> converting them to usable dBASE databases for our address correction
>> software and our address labeling machine.
>>
>> There was almost no difference between using Excel vs Calc even back
>> then.
>> But why anyone would use a spreadsheet for a job better suited to a
>> database
>> is still a mystery to me.
>
> Because Microsoft's is prettier, apparently. I don't mind either, but I
> don't see the drawbacks of LibreOffice. When my Microsoft Office 2021
> license starts feeling old, I'll just move back over to LibreOffice or
> use the 365 license my workplace offers me for free.
>

FYI, if you're looking for a non-rental version, I did read recently
that MS has Office 2024 for sale now for IIRC $150 one-time purchase.
It is *very* hidden on their website, of course.

I've been thinking about picking up a copy to upgrade some old Office
2019's I've been using ... been holding off because the main instance is
on a 2017 laptop that I really should replace soon.

-hh

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 07:24:23 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> There was almost no difference between using Excel vs Calc even back
>> then. But why anyone would use a spreadsheet for a job better suited to
>> a database is still a mystery to me.
>
> My experience with Excel users is 'if you have a hammer everything looks
> like a nail'. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a spreadsheet used as
> intended.

Check out ControlCalc. Our company hired a guy to build an air-traffic
lighting system. He build the control hardware himself, and he used ControlCalc
to drive it (and show graphics of various airfields).

Each page/sheet in the spreadsheet was a single thread of execution.
Loads of fun to figure out if you were new to that project.

We (not me personally) rewrote it using C++ and Qt eventually.

--
Where humor is concerned there are no standards -- no one can say what
is good or bad, although you can be sure that everyone will.
-- John Kenneth Galbraith

On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 14:31:13 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Check out ControlCalc. Our company hired a guy to build an air-traffic
> lighting system. He build the control hardware himself, and he used
> ControlCalc to drive it (and show graphics of various airfields).

Newfangled ideas. In the '70s the company I worked for had a contract to
build the controllers for airport approach lighting systems (rabbit)

https://www.trafficsignalmuseum.com/pages/ef15.html

What he refers to as the cam shaft is actually an Eagle Signal stepper.
The 'motor' is a solenoid that sucks up a ratchet. The silver thing he's
holding up in the last photo is a massive lead weight. Let's just say the
thing doesn't operate silently.

Nylon cable ties weren't acceptable to the FAA so the wiring harness had
to be laced.

https://www.dairiki.org/hammond/cable-lacing-howto/

Finest state of the art. I'm hoping the modern systems are a little more
advanced but with government agencies you never can tell.

On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 09:18:41 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> Because Microsoft's is prettier, apparently.

Microsoft have apparently persuaded users that its “Ribbon” is a good UI
design feature. Trouble is, it originated back in the days before modern
widescreen monitors became popular, so it takes up space along the
dimension where you have less of it to begin with.

LibreOffice has the “Sidebar”, which makes more efficient use of monitor
space.

rbowman wrote:

> some dumb fsck wrote:
>>
>> "‘I grew up with it’: readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Excel#Early_history
>
>I sure as hell didn't grow up with it...

I liked using 1-2-3, with all its keystroke shortcuts. And speedy,
even on an 8088 running at 4.7 MHz or whatever.

--
"Even RedHat only stands behind their product while you're actively
paying for support." - lying asshole "-hh", whining that Free
software doesn't come with free support.

On 2024-10-29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 09:18:41 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> Because Microsoft's is prettier, apparently.
>
> Microsoft have apparently persuaded users that its “Ribbon” is a good UI
> design feature. Trouble is, it originated back in the days before modern
> widescreen monitors became popular, so it takes up space along the
> dimension where you have less of it to begin with.
>
> LibreOffice has the “Sidebar”, which makes more efficient use of monitor
> space.

I don't use the ribbon or the sidebar.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-10-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 07:24:23 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> There was almost no difference between using Excel vs Calc even back
>> then. But why anyone would use a spreadsheet for a job better suited to
>> a database is still a mystery to me.
>
> My experience with Excel users is 'if you have a hammer everything looks
> like a nail'. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a spreadsheet used as
> intended.

I don't think I have either (except in the tutorials). Spreadsheets instead
of databases were usually used in the phone business for cable records. When
I was contracting (with my brother) they had no cable records at the
American Airlines maintenance facility in Tulsa, Oklahoma. So we got to
start from scratch — we were making a lot of changes anyhow. I used dBASE
for that site. When the contract was over, I think they requested that I
send them the records to them in an Excel spreadsheet (which was easy to
do). It's not hard to convert a spreadsheet into a database (and vice versa)
if the spreadsheet is well formatted. Unfortunately most spreadsheet users,
that I've seen, seem to think that data spread inconsistently all over the
place.

I'm guessing if I ever saw an accountant's spreadsheet, I would be a little
more impressed. But they're using it for what spreadsheets are made to do.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 10/29/24 7:43 AM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Oct 2024 10:24:46 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> "‘I grew up with it’: readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Excel#Early_history
>>
>> I sure as hell didn't grow up with it...
>
> I remember Lotus 1-2-3 and VisiCalc. Then the Microsoft copycats came along.

First spreadsheet I can recall seeing was on an Apple ][ at work. A few
years later, I got a ][ myself and even used it for a work project at my
next job.

As they started to buy IT, it started with 1-2-3 on the DOS boxes, but
Mac was Word & Excel, so we started to get Excel on the DOS side too.

We also had a healthy chunk of software from PFS ... "First Choice" for
Doc/Spreadsheet and "Harvard Graphics" in lieu of Powerpoint.

But as the platform wars started, each MS-DOS update conveniently tended
to break Lotus but not Excel, so that prompted us to drop Excel.

Later, as IT Departments grew in size & influence, the DIY era ended and
internal corporate standardization pushed everyone onto MS-Office.

Ironic in this thread's context is that this desktop standardization
mandate also removed allowing compilers in the Engineering offices:
customized & project-specific analysis tools had originally been written
on mainframes, but with the rise of desktops had migrated to the desktop
but now could no longer be employed.

But because Excel was an "IT Dept approved" desktop application and free
under site license (Mathmatica wasn't free & wasn't available quickly),
Excel was often used to fill this need for computational analysis, which
is why one could see monstrosities of spreadsheets doing weird stuff.

-hh

On 10/29/2024 12:05 PM, Joel wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Oct 2024 23:11:20 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/28/microsoft-excel-spreadsheet-program-40-years
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought you people believed that the media, particularly Liberal
>>>>>> media like The Guardian, were a bunch of liars?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or are they suddenly credible when they say something you believe in?
>>>>>
>>>>> "readers"
>>>>
>>>> Believable, sober, credible readers? Not credulous dupes of Liberal
>>>> media? Assuming this publication isn’t lying about what its readers say
>>>> in the first place?
>>>>
>>>> Is that really what you believe?
>>
>> Do your MAGA friends know you’re quoting The Guardian as a reputable
>> information source?
>>
>> If they did, they would never let you live it down!
>
>
> DFS is not MAGA. You gotta give him that much credit. He's a racist,
> in some respects, but not a dumbfuck red cap wearer.

I might be if it wasn't for Trump. I think many if not most Trump
supporters are actually just Dem-haters.

The only red cap I wear is this one:
https://www.campushats.com/products/georgia-bulldogs-mvp-baseball-cap-red

On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 10:33:25 -0400, DFS wrote:

> I might be if it wasn't for Trump. I think many if not most Trump
> supporters are actually just Dem-haters.

Nah, we're Nazi trash. I've only become a Dem-hater in the last 10 or 15
years when they jumped every shark in the ocean. I've got no use for the
GOP of McCain, Romney, Cheney, or the Murder Turtle either. Trump isn't
the greatest leader but I hope the new direction of the GOP sticks.

rbowman wrote:

>I've only become a Dem-hater in the last 10 or 15
>years when they jumped every shark in the ocean.

Only four years ago, for me.

>I've got no use for the
>GOP of McCain, Romney, Cheney, or the Murder Turtle either. Trump isn't
>the greatest leader but I hope the new direction of the GOP sticks.

It's pretty sad, the lock that he has on that party.

On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 08:13:21 -0400, -hh wrote:

> (Mathmatica wasn't free & wasn't available quickly) ...

Macsyma was there before Mathematica, but it only ran on “real” OSes (i.e.
Unix) and was written in a “real” programming language (Lisp), so it would
never work on Windows.

Mathematica’s main appeal was pretty 3D graphics. They looked pretty
advanced back in the late 1980s. But you look at the package now, and they
haven’t improved any.

On 10/30/2024 9:52 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 08:13:21 -0400, -hh wrote:
>
>> (Mathmatica wasn't free & wasn't available quickly) ...
>
> Macsyma was there before Mathematica, but it only ran on “real” OSes (i.e.
> Unix) and was written in a “real” programming language (Lisp), so it would
> never work on Windows.

Macsyma: originally developed from 1968 to 1982 (long before Windows was
even available)

Later:
"The price for the Macsyma 2.4 CD with license keys for the Windows
version of Macsyma, Numkit and PDEase is $500. Macsyma works with
Windows 95, 98, 2000 and XP. There are unresolved issues with Macsyma
running on versions of Windows beyond XP that preclude it's use with
these operating system at this time."

And Lisp programs have run on Windows for nearly 28 years (LispWorks 4.0
by Harlequin, Mar 1997).

cola ignoramuses and liars often make up shit about so-and-so technology
not available for Windows, but you bozos are almost always wrong.

On Thu, 31 Oct 2024 01:02:17 -0400, DFS wrote:

> "The price for the Macsyma 2.4 CD with license keys for the Windows
> version of Macsyma, Numkit and PDEase is $500. Macsyma works with
> Windows 95, 98, 2000 and XP. There are unresolved issues with Macsyma
> running on versions of Windows beyond XP that preclude it's use with
> these operating system at this time."

Yeah, funny that.

Meanwhile:
<https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=macsyma&searchon=all&suite=stable&section=all>

On 2024-10-30, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 10:33:25 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> I might be if it wasn't for Trump. I think many if not most Trump
>> supporters are actually just Dem-haters.
>
> Nah, we're Nazi trash. I've only become a Dem-hater in the last 10 or 15
> years when they jumped every shark in the ocean. I've got no use for the
> GOP of McCain, Romney, Cheney, or the Murder Turtle either. Trump isn't
> the greatest leader but I hope the new direction of the GOP sticks.

When Kamala Harris was bragging about the "Republicans" who backed her, I
was saying "Good riddance to them, don't let the door slam on their butts on
the way out." The Cheney's, Romney and the Bushes are some of the slimiest
of the neo-CON slimeballs. But there are many more than them I want to
"defect" to the Democrat Party.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 10/28/24 22:15, rbowman wrote:
> I don't know the exact age demographics but I don't think you need to be
> 200 to confuse Gen X, Y, and Z.

"Americans" who're born and raised in America have been almost exactly
the same since mid 1800's. So similar that they think that's how human
itself is. "Generation this" and generation that doesn't matter. The
mold is always there. Stupid as sin, never learning anything, never
becoming something else, and never admitting to it.

Nature (and not education) will deal with them. "Americans" who're born
in this country and call themselves "American" live by the default.

The only difference between people in this country is that some are born
and raised here, and some are the true Americans who come to this
country, born and raised elsewhere.

On 10/31/2024 1:30 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Oct 2024 01:02:17 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> "The price for the Macsyma 2.4 CD with license keys for the Windows
>> version of Macsyma, Numkit and PDEase is $500. Macsyma works with
>> Windows 95, 98, 2000 and XP. There are unresolved issues with Macsyma
>> running on versions of Windows beyond XP that preclude it's use with
>> these operating system at this time."
>
> Yeah, funny that.
>
> Meanwhile:
> <https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=macsyma&searchon=all&suite=stable&section=all>

Meanwhile:
https://maxima.sourceforge.io/windows-install.html
https://wolfgang.dautermann.at/maxima/nightlybuild/

Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote at 18:31 this Tuesday (GMT):
> rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 07:24:23 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>>
>>> There was almost no difference between using Excel vs Calc even back
>>> then. But why anyone would use a spreadsheet for a job better suited to
>>> a database is still a mystery to me.
>>
>> My experience with Excel users is 'if you have a hammer everything looks
>> like a nail'. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a spreadsheet used as
>> intended.
>
> Check out ControlCalc. Our company hired a guy to build an air-traffic
> lighting system. He build the control hardware himself, and he used ControlCalc
> to drive it (and show graphics of various airfields).
>
> Each page/sheet in the spreadsheet was a single thread of execution.
> Loads of fun to figure out if you were new to that project.
>
> We (not me personally) rewrote it using C++ and Qt eventually.

That sounds miserable geez. It's cool that it's possible, but it
probably shouldn't be in production.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Thu, 31 Oct 2024 07:32:31 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> When Kamala Harris was bragging about the "Republicans" who backed her,
> I was saying "Good riddance to them, don't let the door slam on their
> butts on the way out." The Cheney's, Romney and the Bushes are some of
> the slimiest of the neo-CON slimeballs. But there are many more than
> them I want to "defect" to the Democrat Party.

If there is a vaguer political term I don't know of it but I would
identify as a populist, make of it what you will. The GOP has never been a
particularly good fit for me. Since LBJ the Democrats have been even
worse.

On Thu, 31 Oct 2024 09:40:44 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Meanwhile: https://maxima.sourceforge.io/windows-install.html
> https://wolfgang.dautermann.at/maxima/nightlybuild/

Interesting that the last “stable” build is over a year old.

Without someone to do the Dimdows build for you, you wouldn’t have a clue
what to do, would you?

On 2024-10-31, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Oct 2024 07:32:31 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> When Kamala Harris was bragging about the "Republicans" who backed her,
>> I was saying "Good riddance to them, don't let the door slam on their
>> butts on the way out." The Cheney's, Romney and the Bushes are some of
>> the slimiest of the neo-CON slimeballs. But there are many more than
>> them I want to "defect" to the Democrat Party.
>
> If there is a vaguer political term I don't know of it but I would
> identify as a populist, make of it what you will. The GOP has never been a
> particularly good fit for me. Since LBJ the Democrats have been even
> worse.

I voted for a Republican presidential candidate one time (the first year I
was registered). It's been independent or nobody since then.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 10/29/24 10:57, rbowman wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 07:24:23 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> There was almost no difference between using Excel vs Calc even back
>> then. But why anyone would use a spreadsheet for a job better suited to
>> a database is still a mystery to me.
>
> My experience with Excel users is 'if you have a hammer everything looks
> like a nail'. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a spreadsheet used as
> intended.

What is it intended for that they don't use it for?

It is a multifaceted tool. You didn't find out why people use it cause
you didn't have a normal life. You did what ants do.