On 6 Oct 2024 06:26:32 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> ... as I recall you could twiddle octal locations in the opcodes.

Sounds PDP-11-ish. The instruction layout was such that, if an instruction
was expressed as an integer, register numbers and addressing modes fitted
neatly into particular octal digits.

Not sure if that was true of the PDP-10. The later VAX went all hex, of
course.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

> On 6 Oct 2024 06:26:32 GMT, rbowman wrote:

>> ... as I recall you could twiddle octal locations in the opcodes.

> Sounds PDP-11-ish. The instruction layout was such that, if an instruction
> was expressed as an integer, register numbers and addressing modes fitted
> neatly into particular octal digits.

> Not sure if that was true of the PDP-10. The later VAX went all hex, of
> course.

The PDP-10 instruction layout is

1 1 1 1 1 2 3 3
0......8 9..2 3 4..7 890123456789012345
op code AC I IX address offset

All represented in octal. The HALT instruction (a variant on the JRST) is a
good example:

HALT RESUME(17) ;RESUME is a symbolic address, let's say 654321

The assembly representation is

254 04 0 17 654321

The in-memory representation is 254217654321. Patching from the front panel of
a 166, KA-10, or KI-10 processor is simple enough, if you know where your program
lives in memory (not a given, since the entire line is intended for multiuser
usage).

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

>On 2024-10-06, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

>> We 'old guys' did a fair amount of ASM back in
>> the day - microcontrollers, even up to early CP/M
>> and DOS before there were (affordable) high-level
>> compilers.

>Those of us in the mainframe world wrote a lot of
>assembly language too, e.g. for the IBM 360 family.
>Back when memory was really tight, you might not
>even be able to run a compiler (although RPG would
>run in 16K or less). And even if you had a compiler,
>the resulting code might not fit into memory for
>anything other than trivial applications.

When at NASA-LeRC, I needed a simple PDP-11 utility to test a
serial card mod I'd made. I walked around seeking a software
wizard to create same.

I found Wally; tall, western shirts, cowboy boots, in the
hallway. "What's the address of this here critter?" and I told
him.

He took my pad of yellow quad paper, and wrote out ~25 lines of
octal. "Punch this in from the front panel.." and I did.

--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher wrote this post; take it under advisement:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>>On 2024-10-06, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>
>>> We 'old guys' did a fair amount of ASM back in
>>> the day - microcontrollers, even up to early CP/M
>>> and DOS before there were (affordable) high-level
>>> compilers.
>
>>Those of us in the mainframe world wrote a lot of
>>assembly language too, e.g. for the IBM 360 family.
>>Back when memory was really tight, you might not
>>even be able to run a compiler (although RPG would
>>run in 16K or less). And even if you had a compiler,
>>the resulting code might not fit into memory for
>>anything other than trivial applications.
>
> When at NASA-LeRC, I needed a simple PDP-11 utility to test a
> serial card mod I'd made. I walked around seeking a software
> wizard to create same.
>
> I found Wally; tall, western shirts, cowboy boots, in the
> hallway. "What's the address of this here critter?" and I told
> him.
>
> He took my pad of yellow quad paper, and wrote out ~25 lines of
> octal. "Punch this in from the front panel.." and I did.

Yeeeeeeeeee haaaaawwwwwww!

Heh heh, a rented car will right through any amount of non-existent road up
and down mountains and canyons.

--
Some people say a front-engine car handles best. Some people say a
rear-engine car handles best. I say a rented car handles best.
-- P. J. O'Rourke

Joel wrote:
> fag.
>
> https://postimg.cc/QBM8bWCY
>
>
indeed

On 10/6/24 6:58 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
> 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>> On 9/24/24 3:04 PM, Lester Thorpe wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 02:45:16 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Me, I'd rather use 'C' ... which was a brand new
>>>> language when I got into computers - it was the
>>>> Cool New Thing on PDP-11s. However the syntax IS,
>>>> and especially can be MADE, a bit obscure. More
>>>> 'obvious', 'self-documenting' langs DO have an
>>>> advantage.
>>>>
>>>
>>> C is just shorthand for assembly, and assembly,
>>> i.e. machine, language is the language to which
>>> EVERYTHING else reduces.
>>>
>>> Yes, C is just shorthand for assembly. Whenever I
>>> write C code I can always "see" the assembly instructions
>>> that lie beneath every C statement.
>>>
>>> In fact, when it comes to SIMD programming, there are C
>>> functions known as "intrinsics" that allow direct access
>>> to SIMD hardware assembly instruction (e.g. SSE2, AVX).
>>> (These do not exist for any other language.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Conclusion:
>>>
>>> Those who understand the machine use C (assembly) and only
>>> C.
>>>
>>> All dumb-fuck idiots and retards, of which there are hordes
>>> in commercial (i.e. paid) programming, MUST use other "crutch"
>>> languages.
>>
>>
>> We 'old guys' did a fair amount of ASM back in
>> the day - microcontrollers, even up to early CP/M
>> and DOS before there were (affordable) high-level
>> compilers.
>>
>> Knew one ultra-geek who wrote clones of popular
>> video games for C64/PET. He was one of those
>> 'critically intelligent' people - right on the
>> very edge. Ever see that old Val Kilmer movie
>> about the genius school ? He was kinda like the
>> guy who lived inside the walls. He didn't even
>> do ASM, but wrote in raw 6502 binary. Said it
>> gave him a buzz ! Watched him do it.
>>
>> It's very frustrating - being JUST smart enough to
>> really smell the ultra-IQ, see its possibilities,
>> but knowing you can never GET there :-)
>>
>> I downloaded a copy of the ancient Aztec 'C'
>> compiler for CP/M-86. Haven't done anything
>> with it yet. CP/M-86 WILL run on VirtualBox.
>> Aztec was well-respected back in the day.
>> The most interesting feature though is the
>> MANUAL ... very deep into optimization and
>> smarter bit-field representations and ops.
>> You do NOT see that anymore. Those people
>> REALLY knew their product and wanted you to
>> know ALL the task-specific options.
>>
>>
>
> I used Aztec C on PC-DOS back in the day. It was the first C compiler I
> ever used.

http://aztecmuseum.ca/compilers.htm

On 10/7/24 4:24 PM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> David Lesher wrote this post; take it under advisement:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 2024-10-06, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> We 'old guys' did a fair amount of ASM back in
>>>> the day - microcontrollers, even up to early CP/M
>>>> and DOS before there were (affordable) high-level
>>>> compilers.
>>
>>> Those of us in the mainframe world wrote a lot of
>>> assembly language too, e.g. for the IBM 360 family.
>>> Back when memory was really tight, you might not
>>> even be able to run a compiler (although RPG would
>>> run in 16K or less). And even if you had a compiler,
>>> the resulting code might not fit into memory for
>>> anything other than trivial applications.
>>
>> When at NASA-LeRC, I needed a simple PDP-11 utility to test a
>> serial card mod I'd made. I walked around seeking a software
>> wizard to create same.
>>
>> I found Wally; tall, western shirts, cowboy boots, in the
>> hallway. "What's the address of this here critter?" and I told
>> him.
>>
>> He took my pad of yellow quad paper, and wrote out ~25 lines of
>> octal. "Punch this in from the front panel.." and I did.
>
> Yeeeeeeeeee haaaaawwwwwww!
>
> Heh heh, a rented car will right through any amount of non-existent road up
> and down mountains and canyons.

Ok ...... that's a confusing response.

There ARE 'gurus' in the computer world, people who
can instantly come up with code - even ASM or binary -
to solve little problems in an instant.

186282@ud0s4.net wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 10/7/24 4:24 PM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> David Lesher wrote this post; take it under advisement:
>>
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-10-06, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> We 'old guys' did a fair amount of ASM back in
>>>>> the day - microcontrollers, even up to early CP/M
>>>>> and DOS before there were (affordable) high-level
>>>>> compilers.
>>>
>>>> Those of us in the mainframe world wrote a lot of
>>>> assembly language too, e.g. for the IBM 360 family.
>>>> Back when memory was really tight, you might not
>>>> even be able to run a compiler (although RPG would
>>>> run in 16K or less). And even if you had a compiler,
>>>> the resulting code might not fit into memory for
>>>> anything other than trivial applications.
>>>
>>> When at NASA-LeRC, I needed a simple PDP-11 utility to test a
>>> serial card mod I'd made. I walked around seeking a software
>>> wizard to create same.
>>>
>>> I found Wally; tall, western shirts, cowboy boots, in the
>>> hallway. "What's the address of this here critter?" and I told
>>> him.
>>>
>>> He took my pad of yellow quad paper, and wrote out ~25 lines of
>>> octal. "Punch this in from the front panel.." and I did.
>>
>> Yeeeeeeeeee haaaaawwwwwww!
>>
>> Heh heh, a rented car will right through any amount of non-existent road up
>> and down mountains and canyons.
>
> Ok ...... that's a confusing response.

Indeed. Even I don't understand it. :-<

> There ARE 'gurus' in the computer world, people who
> can instantly come up with code - even ASM or binary -
> to solve little problems in an instant.

--
Not responsible for merchandise left over 30 days.