On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 23:27:17 -0400, -hh wrote:

> Small form factor has been Apple's design direction now for over a
> decade.
>
> But it does crimp the home DIYer ...

The Raspberry Pi comes in a smaller form factor than any Mac, yet it has
been spectacularly successful among home DIYers, makers and other such
tinkerers. “Small” does not mean “lacking in versatility”.

It’s not the smallness of the form factor: it’s the fact that Apple’s
full-on integrated design leaves no room for upgradeability any more. All
their Mac machines, even the desktops, are just glorified laptops now.
They have abandoned the workstation market (cf the old Mac Pro), just like
they abandoned the server market long ago.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 05:56:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vd2t23$2ohs$5@dont-email.me>:

> On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 23:27:17 -0400, -hh wrote:
>
>> Small form factor has been Apple's design direction now for over a
>> decade.
>>
>> But it does crimp the home DIYer ...
>
> The Raspberry Pi comes in a smaller form factor than any Mac, yet it has
> been spectacularly successful among home DIYers, makers and other such
> tinkerers. “Small” does not mean “lacking in versatility”.
>
> It’s not the smallness of the form factor: it’s the fact that Apple’s
> full-on integrated design leaves no room for upgradeability any more. All
> their Mac machines, even the desktops, are just glorified laptops now.
> They have abandoned the workstation market (cf the old Mac Pro), just like
> they abandoned the server market long ago.

The Mac Pro is still sold, as well as the Mac Studio.

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.11.0 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"Borg? Where? I don't se*(#$#..NO CARRIER"

On 26 Sep 2024 06:30:59 GMT, vallor wrote:

> The Mac Pro is still sold, as well as the Mac Studio.

Apple’s ARM-based machines don’t have the same sort of expandibility as
their previous range. They don’t count as “workstations” any more, and
buyers looking for such things are going elsewhere.

-hh wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> <snip>
>
> Probably need to also include chrisv here too, since he predictably
> protests at length whenever I comment about Linux advocates complaining
> about costs (especially of Apple).

Truthfully, I would like to also have a Mac, but for cost. Much better
to buy an on-sale Windows computer and replace Windows with Linux

>> And at least 2 former cola Linux advocates - Tattoo Vampire and
>> SMelzzzzz - have abandoned Linux and embraced Apple.  That tells you a
>> lot about how good Apple stuff is.

Or maybe it tells us about them.

I do miss Tattoo; He and I were on MeWe for awhile but I stopped using it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6MUYPT2JIw

Blue Oyster Cult "Tattoo Vampire"

--
When Yahweh your gods has settled you in the land you're about to occupy, and
driven out many infidels before you...you're to cut them down and exterminate
them. You're to make no compromise with them or show them any mercy.
[Deut. 7:1 (KJV)]

On 9/26/24 1:41 AM, vallor wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 23:19:40 -0400, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com>
> wrote in <vd2jsc$3le3m$3@dont-email.me>:
>
>> On 9/24/24 2:29 PM, Lester Thorpe wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 14:20:02 +0100, Sn!pe wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> A 'puter is supposed to be a tool to do a job,
>>>> the underpinnings should ideally be unnoticeable.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Incorrect, Apple fathead.
>>>
>>> A computer is a "general purpose machine," which means
>>> that it doesn't do anything but it embodies the potential
>>> to do everything.
>>
>> Yet over the past 40 years, they've grown into being much more than just
>> a PDP-11 with a teletype terminal. They now serve many duties, one of
>> which is even cat pictures! /s
>>
>>
>>> (Apple shitheads don't venture within 100 miles of Comp Sci.)
>>>
>>> However, in order to do something, a computer must be
>>> "programmed," and thus the "underpinnings" are of paramount
>>> importance.
>>>
>>> In contrast, Apple devices, and Apple users, are mere appliances.
>>
>> Oh, so did you write your own newsreader from scratch to fabricate this
>> very post, "Lester"? Or did you use someone else's canned software as
>> your productivity tool, so you're just being a hypocrite?
>>
>>> They are set to do a single task, however convoluted that task
>>> may appear.
>>>
>>> But the Apple user, like YOU, is a total lackey.
>>>
>>> He will, without question, hand over his BIG $BUCKS to Apple
>>> and associates for the brief luxury of having a "turn key"
>>> system.
>>
>>
>> Oh, look: This "BIG $BUCKS" another explicit reference to cost, in the
>> context of Apple products vs others. Now tagged for those who try to
>> deny the "Linux cheapskates" topic. :-)
>
> ? Don't be absurd.

I'm not: I'm just noting where others have whined about costs on Applr
products.

> I paid more for my Thelio Mega from System76 than we paid for the
> Mac Studio -- the latter being more of a "Unix workstation" than
> Feeb's cobbled-together Xeon mess.

Sure, because workstation class PCs have shot up in price ~5 years ago:
I noticed the same thing when I was shopping to replace my Mac Pro and
was actually seriously considering migrating some stuff to Windows.

> (I was advocating getting a Mac Pro, but the Missus balked at the cost.
> The Mac Studio was a good compromise, and still included the neural engine.)

Which with the Apple ARM chip instead of Intel, aligns with their main
product line, so it has a more promising developmental future as well as
being ~half the cost of the last Mac Pro.

-hh

-hh wrote:

>Probably need to also include chrisv here too, since he predictably
>protests at length whenever I comment about Linux advocates complaining
>about costs (especially of Apple).

It's your snittish twists and lies that I object to, -highhorse.

Did cola advocates really have an "irrational hatred" of Photoshop,
-highhorse?

--
"See, now there's a photo that isn't crap. Well done!' - "-hh",
admiring a photo of chrisv's rear-end

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>> It has Unix within it, I grant that ...
>
>No, it has the legal right to use the “Unix” trademark, which is not quite
>what normal people mean when they say “It’s a Unix system, I know this!”.

That's not really true, you can do anything with it, but yeah I'd
*rather* just use a Linux distro.

>> ... but the Apple GUI is goofball shit ...
>
>Another relic of the 1990s idea that the GUI should be tied inextricably
>into the OS kernel. Proper *nixes never fell into that trap.
>
>Even BeOS fell for that, which is why it’s just a museum piece now.

It's the result of Apple's lackluster developing skills. That's why
they couldn't make a real competitor to Windows without Unix.
Microsoft is the only example of a modern, proprietary system.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 9/26/24 12:08 AM, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 9/25/24 1:27 AM, DFS wrote:
>>> On 9/24/2024 7:52 PM, Joel wrote:
>>>
>>>> Apple is just a laughable resource,
>>>> overpriced, overrated, literally a cult of right-brained people.  As
>>>> bloated as M$ Winblows is, at least it's not just some funky crapware
>>>> like macOS (save for the kernel and Darwin).
>>>
>>> For the speed and functionality and software and resale value, I don't
>>> think the base Macs and iMacs and Mac Minis are overpriced.  But they
>>> kill you on the upgrades.  And some (most?) of their hardware isn't even
>>> user-upgradeable, so you DO have to pay out the ass upfront to get
>>> decent  memory and storage.
>>>
>>> It's not for the broke, drunk, drugged-up Linux dregs like yourself and
>>> D'Oliveiro and Feeb.
>>
>> Probably need to also include chrisv here too, since he predictably
>> protests at length whenever I comment about Linux advocates complaining
>> about costs (especially of Apple).
>
> Why shouldn't Apple overcharge, they have to support this market, M$
> specializes in making things easy, so that the learning curve can hang
> with the market for software for it.

AFAIC, Microsoft's success wasn't necessarily in making things easy, but
in getting itself adopted by business by catering to them. Pretty much
every white collar worker in a corporation has a Windows PC on their
desk, with an MS-Office license, etc: that's a lot of seats.

Apple focused on ease-of-use and neglected corporate IT Admins. They
also chose to not cater to the bottom end price-focus of markets, which
traded away marketshare by not competing on price. That's how they also
lost the schools too to Chrome. Where that leaves them is with the home
market, and the more affluent portion thereof...at least until the
advent of the iPhone, which killed off RIM's Blackberry in Corporations.

Today, Apple's MacOS is reportedly ~15% of the total market. If we
ignore schools and assume a 50/50 Corporate/Home split for desktops,
then Apple probably has a third of the home market...and if the ratio of
Corporate:Home is 67/33%, then the MacOS is probably in ~half of homes.

> But to think of using a Mac without heavily accessing Darwin, and
> probably VMing Windows 11 for ARM, is amusing.

I don't have any qualms with MacOS; you'll need to articulate what your
beef with it happens to be. For Windows, ARM Win11 in a VM is what I'm
presently using when I happen to need Windows and it does what I need it
to do; its just another tool in the toolbox.

>>> And at least 2 former cola Linux advocates - Tattoo Vampire and
>>> SMelzzzzz - have abandoned Linux and embraced Apple.  That tells you a
>>> lot about how good Apple stuff is.
>>>
>>> I'm not averse to a mini system, but I prefer a med-big tower case I can
>>> swap parts in and out of, and the amt of great software available for
>>> Windows dwarfs that available for Mac and Linux.
>>
>> Small form factor has been Apple's design direction now for over a
>> decade. Mobile makes sense, particularly since laptops have become good
>> enough to replace a generic office productivity application desktop.
>
> The mini is a fine thing to buy, IMO, if you want this crapware from
> Apple.

The mainstream marketshare are laptops, so the mini, along with the iMac
and Studio are functionally niche products today. Apple's used a lot of
mobile technology & approach in these desktops, which is good from a
lower power consumption standpoint and desktop real estate claim, but it
then doesn't have the big empty box to enable DIY'ers to tinker, which
that tiny market segment loves to hate about their products. Myself
included...but I got over it.

> But they've developed ARM, were the leader in it. Dell offers
> it too so Apple is back to being highly obscure, but I am,
> philosophically, enthusiastic about ARM.

It is nice to have it cranking away with zero ambient noise. Sure beats
having the "747" noise of fans trying to keep x86 CPUs cool.

-hh

On 9/26/24 8:10 AM, chrisv wrote:
> -hh wrote:
>
>> Probably need to also include chrisv here too, since he predictably
>> protests at length whenever I comment about Linux advocates complaining
>> about costs (especially of Apple).
>
> It's your snittish twists and lies that I object to, -highhorse.
>
> Did cola advocates really have an "irrational hatred" of Photoshop,
> -highhorse?
>

Well, there is one COLA fanboy who's still ranting about the claimed
£600 cost of Photoshop from a comment that Homer made 14(!) years ago..

-hh

vallor wrote:

> -highhorse wrote:
>>
>> Oh, look: This "BIG $BUCKS" another explicit reference to cost, in the
>> context of Apple products vs others. Now tagged for those who try to
>> deny the "Linux cheapskates" topic. :-)
>
>? Don't be absurd.

He's a snit, *again* pretending that anyone has denied that advocates,
very reasonably, have talked about cost and value.

Recall about a month back he made an utter jackass of himself on this
same issue! He never did answer your *repeated* requests to back up
his lie about "Linux fanboys" insisting "that Linux advocacy is never,
ever, about being a cheapskate" lie.

Instead, he lied and denied, claiming a "pedantic dodge attempt" and a
"comprehension failure", when what he wrote, is *lie*, was *clear*.

He made a complete fscking asshole of himself. Failing, as usual.
Yet he's back for more humiliation! What a kook! What a snit!

--
"the Linux fanboys who insist that Linux advocacy is never, ever,
about being a cheapskate!" - lying asshole "-hh", lying shamelessly

-hh wrote:

> (snipped, unread)

Kook. Snit.

-hh wrote:

> (snipped, unread)

Poor -highhorse. You'll never grow up, become a man, and admit to your
lies, will you?

--
"Well, at least chrisv is pretending better:" - lying asshole "-hh",
lying shamelessly

chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>-hh wrote:
>
>> (snipped, unread)
>
>Kook. Snit.

Unlike you, white boy.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-09-26, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> -hh wrote:
>
>>Probably need to also include chrisv here too, since he predictably
>>protests at length whenever I comment about Linux advocates complaining
>>about costs (especially of Apple).
>
> It's your snittish twists and lies that I object to, -highhorse.
>
> Did cola advocates really have an "irrational hatred" of Photoshop,
> -highhorse?

I have a rational hatred of renting expensive software forever that I
absolutely don't need for anything.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-09-26, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> -hh wrote:
>
>> (snipped, unread)
>
> Poor -highhorse. You'll never grow up, become a man, and admit to your
> lies, will you?

Do you see any of Woke EVER admit they made a mistake? It's not in their DNA
because everything they believe is part of their Woke Cult and they're not
going to deny their Woke faith.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 9/27/24 12:29 AM, RonB wrote:
> On 2024-09-26, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> -hh wrote:
>>
>>> Probably need to also include chrisv here too, since he predictably
>>> protests at length whenever I comment about Linux advocates complaining
>>> about costs (especially of Apple).
>>
>> It's your snittish twists and lies that I object to, -highhorse.
>>
>> Did cola advocates really have an "irrational hatred" of Photoshop,
>> -highhorse?
>
> I have a rational hatred of renting expensive software forever that I
> absolutely don't need for anything.
>

Fun fact:

14 years ago, Adobe didn't sell only subscription based software.

As such, while I'm generally in the same camp as RonB of not wanting to
pay monthly subscription fee, it doesn't apply to this ancient debate
that chrisv (and Homer) lost over a decade ago.

-hh

Le 24-09-2024, Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> a écrit :
> vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
>
>> Seems like there isn't much Linux advocacy going on.[*]
>>
>> Maybe that's because, Linux just works,
>>
>
> Yay! That's been true of Mac OS for many years;
> congrats to the Linux world for finally catching on.
>
>>
>> so much so that it's even a bit boring.
>>
>
> A 'puter is supposed to be a tool to do a job,
> the underpinnings should ideally be unnoticeable.
>
> IMO 'puter hobbyists are mostly deviants.

As you promote Mac OS, you are deviant, too, so everything's fine.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 25-09-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
> On 9/25/2024 1:35 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
> > Think about that: one of the original crew that created Unix does not
>> see Apple’s current offering as a worthy successor to his pioneering
>> work: he prefers Linux instead.
>
> What you should think about is the fact that one of the early Unix
> pioneers didn't primarily run Unix or Linux for most of his life.

In fact, Mac OS is a Unix system derived from BSD.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 15:35:17 -0400, -hh wrote:

> Their current paradigm has been to upgrade with external devices,
> attached via the "Thunderbolt" interface.
>
> And sure, having to use an external isn't as cheap as having a
> half-empty PC case to drop bare components into, but its still
> expansion.

We went through this with SCSI back in the latter 1980s. We even had an
Ethernet interface that could plug into a Mac via SCSI.

They were expensive, and the more complex interface and longer cabling
means they will never be as fast as on-board expansion cards.

In short, there is no substitute for a versatile, configurable
workstation-class machine. Apple has completely walked away from this
market.

On 28 Sep 2024 09:50:16 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> In fact, Mac OS is a Unix system derived from BSD.

macOS is a system (one of the few left) entitled to use the “Unix”
trademark. That doesn’t necessarily make it a “Unix” system in the sense
as commonly understood by many people.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 12:37:56 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> It has Unix within it, I grant that ...
>>
>> No, it has the legal right to use the “Unix” trademark, which is not
>> quite what normal people mean when they say “It’s a Unix system, I know
>> this!”.
>
> That's not really true, you can do anything with it ...

Not quite. Apple is insisting on signed software now, so users of Open
Source have to negotiate continual off-putting warnings about “untrusted”
apps every time they try to install something.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 08:03:58 -0400, -hh wrote:

> On 9/26/24 1:41 AM, vallor wrote:
>>
>> I paid more for my Thelio Mega from System76 than we paid for the Mac
>> Studio -- the latter being more of a "Unix workstation" than Feeb's
>> cobbled-together Xeon mess.
>
> Sure, because workstation class PCs have shot up in price ~5 years
> ago ...

I was curious about this, so I looked up the specs of that Thelio Mega:
ECC RAM, dual GPUs ... no wonder it’s pricey.

Tip: GPUs are not necessarily the way to go for all workloads. Sure, they
give you more processing grunt, but on the other hand, they run out of
RAM, and there is no way to upgrade that other than replacing the GPU
card.

On 9/30/24 3:26 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 15:35:17 -0400, -hh wrote:
>
>> Their current paradigm has been to upgrade with external devices,
>> attached via the "Thunderbolt" interface.
>>
>> And sure, having to use an external isn't as cheap as having a
>> half-empty PC case to drop bare components into, but its still
>> expansion.
>
> We went through this with SCSI back in the latter 1980s. We even had an
> Ethernet interface that could plug into a Mac via SCSI.
>
> They were expensive, and the more complex interface and longer cabling
> means they will never be as fast as on-board expansion cards.

Sure, but one also needs to acknowledge that both technology and users'
needs evolve over time, so the manufacturer's dilemma is when should
they continue to provide a design feature when its differentiation (&
thus, price it can command) has dwindled? Especially when it blocks
offering some other design element that has greater consumer demand?

For example, laptops have overtaken the market versus desktops because
consumers now prefer that form factor. But ... this was enabled by
technological advancements which have resulted in "state of the shelf"
laptops to have computational power that was "good enough", such that
one doesn't need the last 10% of performance that one could get with a
tower.

> In short, there is no substitute for a versatile, configurable
> workstation-class machine. Apple has completely walked away from this
> market.

That's a business decision, not necessarily a technological one.

Looking at the high prices of Workstations in the Windows PC market, one
finds indications of a shrinking market and thus, fewer manufacturers
who willing to compete on price in that market segment.

-hh

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 07:29 this Monday (GMT):
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 12:37:56 -0400, Joel wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> It has Unix within it, I grant that ...
>>>
>>> No, it has the legal right to use the “Unix” trademark, which is not
>>> quite what normal people mean when they say “It’s a Unix system, I know
>>> this!”.
>>
>> That's not really true, you can do anything with it ...
>
> Not quite. Apple is insisting on signed software now, so users of Open
> Source have to negotiate continual off-putting warnings about “untrusted”
> apps every time they try to install something.

Not surprised.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 2024-09-30 3:40 p.m., candycanearter07 wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 07:29 this Monday (GMT):
>> On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 12:37:56 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It has Unix within it, I grant that ...
>>>>
>>>> No, it has the legal right to use the “Unix” trademark, which is not
>>>> quite what normal people mean when they say “It’s a Unix system, I know
>>>> this!”.
>>>
>>> That's not really true, you can do anything with it ...
>>
>> Not quite. Apple is insisting on signed software now, so users of Open
>> Source have to negotiate continual off-putting warnings about “untrusted”
>> apps every time they try to install something.
>
>
> Not surprised.

There's nothing wrong with signing software if you want to limit the
damage of malware. Open-source will probably work as long as the
software is listed in the Apple Store though.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king