On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 02:58:17 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 02:16:36 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> And yet I'm accomplishing everything with openSUSE. It's almost like
>>> commercial OSes' advantages are an illusion ...
>>
>> But openSUSE *is* commercial.
>
> Vaguely, perhaps, but it didn't cost money. You're just obsessing over
> the word.

Maybe Open Source is a hobby to you, but it’s how I make my living.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>>>> And yet I'm accomplishing everything with openSUSE. It's almost like
>>>> commercial OSes' advantages are an illusion ...
>>>
>>> But openSUSE *is* commercial.
>>
>> Vaguely, perhaps, but it didn't cost money. You're just obsessing over
>> the word.
>
>Maybe Open Source is a hobby to you, but it’s how I make my living.

Not a hobby, it's essential to using my computer effectively. M$ is
just a lost cause.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 9/25/2024 4:44 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 02:58:17 -0400, Joel wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 02:16:36 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>>
>>>> And yet I'm accomplishing everything with openSUSE. It's almost like
>>>> commercial OSes' advantages are an illusion ...
>>>
>>> But openSUSE *is* commercial.
>>
>> Vaguely, perhaps, but it didn't cost money. You're just obsessing over
>> the word.
>
> Maybe Open Source is a hobby to you, but it’s how I make my living.

Another vague claim.

On 9/25/2024 1:35 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 01:27:47 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> And at least 2 former cola Linux advocates - Tattoo Vampire and
>> SMelzzzzz - have abandoned Linux and embraced Apple. That tells you a
>> lot about how good Apple stuff is.
>
> Quality of advocates beats quantity any time.
>
> Ken Thompson, one of the original Bell Labs crew that created Unix, now
> 80 years old, was asked last year what OS he uses, and he replied
> <https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/unix-pioneer-ken-thompson-announces-hes-switching-from-mac-to-linux.88451/>:
>
> I have, for most of my life — because I was sort of born into it —
> run Apple.
>
> Now recently, meaning within the last five years, I've become more
> and more depressed, and what Apple is doing to something that
> should allow you to work is just atrocious. But they are taking a
> lot of space and time to do it, so it's okay.
>
> And I have come, within the last month or two, to say, even though
> I've invested, you know, a zillion years in Apple — I'm throwing
> it away. And I'm going to Linux. To Raspbian in particular.

> Think about that: one of the original crew that created Unix does not
> see Apple’s current offering as a worthy successor to his pioneering
> work: he prefers Linux instead.

What you should think about is the fact that one of the early Unix
pioneers didn't primarily run Unix or Linux for most of his life.

"Sort of born into" Apple is bs. Even if he started with Apple from the
beginning - mid-to-late 70s - he was already 30-35 years old. I wish he
was more specific on what bothers him about Apple.

Joel wrote:
> white boy, the queerest piece of shit
>
>
that describes you to a T, you limp wristed fairy

https://postimg.cc/QBM8bWCY

On 9/25/2024 2:27 AM, Joel wrote:

> Yup, DFS is like the TERFs I sometimes encounter on Twitter/X,

No such thing as a "TERF". It's a silly term made up by ugly, angry,
mentally ill trannies with blue or green hair and nose rings.

Can the male whose cock you suck get pregnant? Of course not, so
referring to him as a girl is mental illness on your part.

> has so much to say but is fundamentally wrong, standing
> on shaky ground.

What are you babbling about?

The fact that one of the Unix pioneers used Apple until very recently is
nothing but an indictment of Unix and Linux.

I can't imagine what his attraction to Raspbian (Raspberry Pi OS) could be.

> macOS does OK as a Unix flavor, but it's more straightforward to just
> use Unix itself, which GNU/Linux is the modern standard of. If we
> were to analogize OSes to major world figures, I'd be Linux, DJT would
> be Windows, and Elon Musk would be macOS. It's fair to say, I'd vote
> for Trump before I'd vote for Musk.

I always wonder why mentally ill people have grandiose thoughts that
they're important to the world. The transgender former cola advocate
Rex Ballard - who now goes by Debbie Lawrence - had TONS of outlandish
fantasies about being responsible for many groundbreaking IT inventions.

I forgot about something: you used to claim you were going to "replace
the Trump presidency". Of course you never gave any specifics about how
you were going to accomplish it. What happened with that delusion?

Joel wrote:
> blacks are God-like and whites are Satan-like.
>
>
you are wigger like

DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:

>> macOS does OK as a Unix flavor, but it's more straightforward to just
>> use Unix itself, which GNU/Linux is the modern standard of. If we
>> were to analogize OSes to major world figures, I'd be Linux, DJT would
>> be Windows, and Elon Musk would be macOS. It's fair to say, I'd vote
>> for Trump before I'd vote for Musk.
>
>I always wonder why mentally ill people have grandiose thoughts that
>they're important to the world. The transgender former cola advocate
>Rex Ballard - who now goes by Debbie Lawrence - had TONS of outlandish
>fantasies about being responsible for many groundbreaking IT inventions.
>
>I forgot about something: you used to claim you were going to "replace
>the Trump presidency". Of course you never gave any specifics about how
>you were going to accomplish it. What happened with that delusion?

I have been over these matters, here.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

[...]

> Apple users think they're so clever, classless, and free but they're still
> fucking peasants as far as I can see and love their little feudal domain.
>

Sour grapes? Whatever, use of Apple kit is not compulsory. If you
choose to exclude yourself from the joy of Apple, that's your choice.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS, Pro Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:

> > IMO 'puter hobbyists are mostly deviants.
>
> Speak for yourself, deviant. ;)

Bow before me, underling. ≈:o)

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS, Pro Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 17:54:15 +0100, Sn!pe wrote:

> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Apple users think they're so clever, classless, and free but they're
>> still fucking peasants as far as I can see and love their little feudal
>> domain.
>>
>>
> Sour grapes? Whatever, use of Apple kit is not compulsory. If you
> choose to exclude yourself from the joy of Apple, that's your choice.

Not sour grapes but perhaps a relic from the old days. Apple users tended
to be artsy-fartsy types. I wouldn't be surprised if they still tend
toward the left end of the scale and like their safe, curated environment.

Like I said I never had reason to use Apple products other than a Shuffle
my boss gifted one Christmas. That introduced me to iTunes which truly
sucked on Windows. My personal selection of MP3 players are those that can
be loaded directly as a storage device.

rbowman wrote:

> Sn!pe wrote:
>>
>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Apple users think they're so clever, classless, and free but they're
>>> still fucking peasants as far as I can see and love their little feudal
>>> domain.
>>
>> Sour grapes? Whatever, use of Apple kit is not compulsory. If you
>> choose to exclude yourself from the joy of Apple, that's your choice.
>
>Not sour grapes but perhaps a relic from the old days. Apple users tended
>to be artsy-fartsy types. I wouldn't be surprised if they still tend
>toward the left end of the scale and like their safe, curated environment.

Oh, come on. The Mac is a reasonble choice of computer. There's all
kinds of people in the world, you know.

--
"All this choice hurts my head..." - some dumb fsck

On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 17:54:15 +0100, Sn!pe wrote:

> If you choose to exclude yourself from the joy of Apple ...

“The joy of Apple” ... kind of like “the eternal sunshine of the spotless
mind” ...

On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 11:54:52 -0400, DFS wrote:

> What you should think about is the fact that one of the early Unix
> pioneers didn't primarily run Unix or Linux for most of his life.

Of course he did. What else would he want to use? There were Unix
workstations available all through the decades until Windows NT killed
them off.

> "Sort of born into" Apple is bs. Even if he started with Apple from the
> beginning - mid-to-late 70s - he was already 30-35 years old. I wish he
> was more specific on what bothers him about Apple.

Not obvious to you? It’s obvious to me, and I was using Apple Macs from
just about the beginning of that product line, until the switch to OS X.

Maybe you need to have the same experience to understand it.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 17:54:15 +0100, Sn!pe wrote:
>
>> If you choose to exclude yourself from the joy of Apple ...
>
>“The joy of Apple” ... kind of like “the eternal sunshine of the spotless
>mind” ...

Apple's products are not as cool as running Linux on ARM. I'm already
using a distro that supports this technology. Just would need to
download the non-IntelAMDx86 installer image. I covet this even
though I already have a very functional and ideal Intel desktop.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 16:37:07 -0500, chrisv wrote:

> Oh, come on. The Mac is a reasonble choice of computer. There's all
> kinds of people in the world, you know.

I'm remonded of that all too frequently. With the exception of the Mac-
mini we used for the doomed iPhone project I've only worked for one
company that had Macs. The original toaster was one of the few systems to
meet TEMPEST requirements at the time. Those were only for doumenters;
programming used PCs. The target device was the Ti 9900. That decision was
driven by it being rad hard rather than any technical superiority.

Having never used a Mac I can't criticize it. The last time I shopped for
a computer without a specific OS in mind was about 30 years ago. I looked
at the Apple price tags and then I looked at the PC price tags. I asked
the salesman what justified the difference and he came up empty. Maybe if
he had been a better salesman...

chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>rbowman wrote:
>> Sn!pe wrote:
>>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Apple users think they're so clever, classless, and free but they're
>>>> still fucking peasants as far as I can see and love their little feudal
>>>> domain.
>>>
>>> Sour grapes? Whatever, use of Apple kit is not compulsory. If you
>>> choose to exclude yourself from the joy of Apple, that's your choice.
>>
>>Not sour grapes but perhaps a relic from the old days. Apple users tended
>>to be artsy-fartsy types. I wouldn't be surprised if they still tend
>>toward the left end of the scale and like their safe, curated environment.
>
>Oh, come on. The Mac is a reasonble choice of computer. There's all
>kinds of people in the world, you know.

It has Unix within it, I grant that, but the Apple GUI is goofball
shit, just like the damn iPhone. I'm intrigued by the liking of it,
Samsung's phones seem *eons* better, to me.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 9/25/2024 8:35 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 11:54:52 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> What you should think about is the fact that one of the early Unix
>> pioneers didn't primarily run Unix or Linux for most of his life.
>
> Of course he did. What else would he want to use? There were Unix
> workstations available all through the decades until Windows NT killed
> them off.
>
>> "Sort of born into" Apple is bs. Even if he started with Apple from the
>> beginning - mid-to-late 70s - he was already 30-35 years old. I wish he
>> was more specific on what bothers him about Apple.
>
> Not obvious to you? It’s obvious to me, and I was using Apple Macs from
> just about the beginning of that product line, until the switch to OS X.
>
> Maybe you need to have the same experience to understand it.

Ken Thompson makes an extremely vague, meaningless claim about Apple,
then you lie that "it's obvious to me" when he didn't say what the
problem was?

"should allow you to work" implies you can no longer work with an Apple
computer running macOS. Absurd.

On 9/24/24 2:29 PM, Lester Thorpe wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 14:20:02 +0100, Sn!pe wrote:
>
>>
>> A 'puter is supposed to be a tool to do a job,
>> the underpinnings should ideally be unnoticeable.
>>
>
> Incorrect, Apple fathead.
>
> A computer is a "general purpose machine," which means
> that it doesn't do anything but it embodies the potential
> to do everything.

Yet over the past 40 years, they've grown into being much more than just
a PDP-11 with a teletype terminal. They now serve many duties, one of
which is even cat pictures! /s

> (Apple shitheads don't venture within 100 miles of Comp Sci.)
>
> However, in order to do something, a computer must be
> "programmed," and thus the "underpinnings" are of paramount
> importance.
>
> In contrast, Apple devices, and Apple users, are mere appliances.

Oh, so did you write your own newsreader from scratch to fabricate this
very post, "Lester"? Or did you use someone else's canned software as
your productivity tool, so you're just being a hypocrite?

> They are set to do a single task, however convoluted that task
> may appear.
>
> But the Apple user, like YOU, is a total lackey.
>
> He will, without question, hand over his BIG $BUCKS to Apple
> and associates for the brief luxury of having a "turn key"
> system.

Oh, look: This "BIG $BUCKS" another explicit reference to cost, in the
context of Apple products vs others. Now tagged for those who try to
deny the "Linux cheapskates" topic. :-)

> Don't miss your subscription payment, sucker, or else you
> will be dead in the fucking water.
>
> Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
>
> What fools these Appleheads be.

Hmm...perhaps this "Lester" can fill me in on just what onerous
subscription payments I'm allegedly making, where, and for what?

-hh

On 9/25/24 1:27 AM, DFS wrote:
> On 9/24/2024 7:52 PM, Joel wrote:
>
>> Apple is just a laughable resource,
>> overpriced, overrated, literally a cult of right-brained people.  As
>> bloated as M$ Winblows is, at least it's not just some funky crapware
>> like macOS (save for the kernel and Darwin).
>
>
> For the speed and functionality and software and resale value, I don't
> think the base Macs and iMacs and Mac Minis are overpriced.  But they
> kill you on the upgrades.  And some (most?) of their hardware isn't even
> user-upgradeable, so you DO have to pay out the ass upfront to get
> decent  memory and storage.
>
> It's not for the broke, drunk, drugged-up Linux dregs like yourself and
> D'Oliveiro and Feeb.

Probably need to also include chrisv here too, since he predictably
protests at length whenever I comment about Linux advocates complaining
about costs (especially of Apple).

> And at least 2 former cola Linux advocates - Tattoo Vampire and
> SMelzzzzz - have abandoned Linux and embraced Apple.  That tells you a
> lot about how good Apple stuff is.
>
> I'm not averse to a mini system, but I prefer a med-big tower case I can
> swap parts in and out of, and the amt of great software available for
> Windows dwarfs that available for Mac and Linux.
>

Small form factor has been Apple's design direction now for over a
decade. Mobile makes sense, particularly since laptops have become good
enough to replace a generic office productivity application desktop.

But it does crimp the home DIYer, particularly those looking/using more
oomph in their systems who are disinclined from paying the "Apple Tax"
for higher-than-base hardware. Of course, as one grows older and things
aren't as lean, it becomes less painful in reality (vs perception) to
just fork over the extra bucks.

> Windows FTFW!
> Then Mac
> Then paper and pencil and rubber eraser
> Then Linux
>

For the cheapskates, Staples.com office supply has a 24 pack box of
"True Red" brand pencils, pre-sharpened, for just $6:

<https://www.staples.com/tru-red-pre-sharpened-wooden-pencil-2-2mm-2-medium-lead-24-pack-tr58558/product_24424022>

-hh

On 9/25/24 10:51 PM, DFS wrote:
> On 9/25/2024 8:35 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 11:54:52 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> What you should think about is the fact that one of the early Unix
>>> pioneers didn't primarily run Unix or Linux for most of his life.
>>
>> Of course he did. What else would he want to use? There were Unix
>> workstations available all through the decades until Windows NT killed
>> them off.
>>
>>> "Sort of born into" Apple is bs.  Even if he started with Apple from the
>>> beginning - mid-to-late 70s - he was already 30-35 years old.  I wish he
>>> was more specific on what bothers him about Apple.
>>
>> Not obvious to you? It’s obvious to me, and I was using Apple Macs from
>> just about the beginning of that product line, until the switch to OS X.
>>
>> Maybe you need to have the same experience to understand it.
>
>
> Ken Thompson makes an extremely vague, meaningless claim about Apple,
> then you lie that "it's obvious to me" when he didn't say what the
> problem was?
>
> "should allow you to work" implies you can no longer work with an Apple
> computer running macOS.  Absurd.
>
>

I've heard a beef from software developers in that Apple makes it "hard"
to write compliant software to the Apple UI and coding standards.

This is a fairly legitimate beef from the perspective of a lab rat
banging out something for just themselves to use on a quick project...

....but that's not the intent of those standards: they're to make sure
that software gets written consistent to the overall UI presentation so
that people other than the software's author can grok it.

Let's face it: programmers are often sloppy and/or lazy, and work
projects rarely allow a leisurely pace where all of the documentation
gets written out in full, so some degree of handcuffs are deserved.
Plus perhaps this is a place where AI will become a useful tool in
software development, such as to do the documentation that too often
gets skipped. BTDT (guilty of it myself).

-hh

-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>On 9/25/24 1:27 AM, DFS wrote:
>> On 9/24/2024 7:52 PM, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> Apple is just a laughable resource,
>>> overpriced, overrated, literally a cult of right-brained people.  As
>>> bloated as M$ Winblows is, at least it's not just some funky crapware
>>> like macOS (save for the kernel and Darwin).
>>
>> For the speed and functionality and software and resale value, I don't
>> think the base Macs and iMacs and Mac Minis are overpriced.  But they
>> kill you on the upgrades.  And some (most?) of their hardware isn't even
>> user-upgradeable, so you DO have to pay out the ass upfront to get
>> decent  memory and storage.
>>
>> It's not for the broke, drunk, drugged-up Linux dregs like yourself and
>> D'Oliveiro and Feeb.
>
>Probably need to also include chrisv here too, since he predictably
>protests at length whenever I comment about Linux advocates complaining
>about costs (especially of Apple).

Why shouldn't Apple overcharge, they have to support this market, M$
specializes in making things easy, so that the learning curve can hang
with the market for software for it. But to think of using a Mac
without heavily accessing Darwin, and probably VMing Windows 11 for
ARM, is amusing.

>> And at least 2 former cola Linux advocates - Tattoo Vampire and
>> SMelzzzzz - have abandoned Linux and embraced Apple.  That tells you a
>> lot about how good Apple stuff is.
>>
>> I'm not averse to a mini system, but I prefer a med-big tower case I can
>> swap parts in and out of, and the amt of great software available for
>> Windows dwarfs that available for Mac and Linux.
>
>Small form factor has been Apple's design direction now for over a
>decade. Mobile makes sense, particularly since laptops have become good
>enough to replace a generic office productivity application desktop.

The mini is a fine thing to buy, IMO, if you want this crapware from
Apple. But they've developed ARM, were the leader in it. Dell offers
it too so Apple is back to being highly obscure, but I am,
philosophically, enthusiastic about ARM.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 23:19:40 -0400, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com>
wrote in <vd2jsc$3le3m$3@dont-email.me>:

> On 9/24/24 2:29 PM, Lester Thorpe wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 14:20:02 +0100, Sn!pe wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> A 'puter is supposed to be a tool to do a job,
>>> the underpinnings should ideally be unnoticeable.
>>>
>>
>> Incorrect, Apple fathead.
>>
>> A computer is a "general purpose machine," which means
>> that it doesn't do anything but it embodies the potential
>> to do everything.
>
> Yet over the past 40 years, they've grown into being much more than just
> a PDP-11 with a teletype terminal. They now serve many duties, one of
> which is even cat pictures! /s
>
>
>> (Apple shitheads don't venture within 100 miles of Comp Sci.)
>>
>> However, in order to do something, a computer must be
>> "programmed," and thus the "underpinnings" are of paramount
>> importance.
>>
>> In contrast, Apple devices, and Apple users, are mere appliances.
>
> Oh, so did you write your own newsreader from scratch to fabricate this
> very post, "Lester"? Or did you use someone else's canned software as
> your productivity tool, so you're just being a hypocrite?
>
>> They are set to do a single task, however convoluted that task
>> may appear.
>>
>> But the Apple user, like YOU, is a total lackey.
>>
>> He will, without question, hand over his BIG $BUCKS to Apple
>> and associates for the brief luxury of having a "turn key"
>> system.
>
>
> Oh, look: This "BIG $BUCKS" another explicit reference to cost, in the
> context of Apple products vs others. Now tagged for those who try to
> deny the "Linux cheapskates" topic. :-)

? Don't be absurd.

I paid more for my Thelio Mega from System76 than we paid for the
Mac Studio -- the latter being more of a "Unix workstation" than
Feeb's cobbled-together Xeon mess.

(I was advocating getting a Mac Pro, but the Missus balked at the cost.
The Mac Studio was a good compromise, and still included the neural engine.)

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.11.0 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"The Microsoft Motto: "We're the leaders, wait for us!""

On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 23:34:41 -0400, -hh wrote:

> I've heard a beef from software developers in that Apple makes it "hard"
> to write compliant software to the Apple UI and coding standards.

Particularly when they give themselves an exemption from those same
standards.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2024 21:19:51 -0400, Joel wrote:

> It has Unix within it, I grant that ...

No, it has the legal right to use the “Unix” trademark, which is not quite
what normal people mean when they say “It’s a Unix system, I know this!”.

> ... but the Apple GUI is goofball shit ...

Another relic of the 1990s idea that the GUI should be tied inextricably
into the OS kernel. Proper *nixes never fell into that trap.

Even BeOS fell for that, which is why it’s just a museum piece now.