Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 10:54:45 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> A GUI is essentially if you are doing any sort of graphical work, even
>> typesetting needs some kind of WYSIWG interface.
>
> Tell that to Donald Knuth! TeX is perfectly usable without a WSYWIG
> interface so are all the runoff derivatives.

Ahhh, good ol' RUNOFF. I used it in the 70's when it's input was
all UPPER-CASE text but mixed-case documents could be generated.

These days I have used LaTeX and good ol' vi to generate PDF documents of two
or three hundred pages containing graphics. No way in hell I would do that with
Microsoft Word or LibreOffice. The former is especially painful. People have
used it to write books; the thought makes me shudder.

Of course, you need some kind of viewer that can show images.

--
Q: How many members of the U.S.S. Enterprise does it take to change a
light bulb?
A: Seven. Scotty has to report to Captain Kirk that the light bulb in
the Engineering Section is getting dim, at which point ...

Bobbie Sellers wrote:

>Transgender people have been written of through-out history

How could that be, when it's a recently made-up term? Some guy who
wishes he was a girl, or who gets a thrill out of wearing women's
clothing, or who likes to suck dick, isn't "transgender"

>sometimes in positions of trust and prominence other times
>as amusements for the elite.

Of course there have always been perverts and weirdos, many of whom
were in positions of power, along with their cohorts. The Catholic
Church was a haven for them!

On 28/07/2024 11:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 10:54:45 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> A GUI is essentially if you are doing any sort of graphical work, even
>> typesetting needs some kind of WYSIWG interface.
>
> Tell that to Donald Knuth! TeX is perfectly usable without a WSYWIG
> interface so are all the runoff derivatives.
>
You do not produce pictures with texts using Tex.

--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 28/07/2024 11:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 10:54:45 +0100
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> A GUI is essentially if you are doing any sort of graphical work, even
>>> typesetting needs some kind of WYSIWG interface.
>>
>> Tell that to Donald Knuth! TeX is perfectly usable without a WSYWIG
>> interface so are all the runoff derivatives.
>>
> You do not produce pictures with texts using Tex.

\begin{figure}[H]
\centering
\includegraphics[scale=0.65]{tabs/session/qseq66-session-tab.png}
\caption*{Session Tab Under NSM}
\end{figure}

To get the PNG file? Use the ImageMagick command-line:

$ import qseq66-session-tab.png

You have to click on the desired window. Or you can avoid that
by using the option "-window id". You can even crop the image
while capturing it: "-crop geometry". Many other transformations are
possible.

You can optimize (reduce) the size of the PNG using optipng, another
command-line program.

In any case, Ahem's response about WYSIWYG is still appropriate.

--
FORTUNE PROVIDES QUESTIONS FOR THE GREAT ANSWERS: #5
A: The Halls of Montezuma and the Shores of Tripoli.
Q: Name two families whose kids won't join the Marines.

On Sat, 27 Jul 2024 11:10:09 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote in
<a25ea8f3-8959-2ef1-650b-27e420344c71@example.net>:

> On Fri, 26 Jul 2024, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects
>> royalties:
>>
>>> On 26/07/2024 18:18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 26 Jul 2024 18:38:37 +0200 D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jul 2024, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:06:25 +0200 D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ahh... the book says, show me your chromosomes and I'll show you
>>>>>>> your gender! ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is surprisingly complex - there's a gene which is usually
>>>>>> found on the Y chromosone (but sometimes on an X chromosome) that
>>>>>> (with varying success) activates a very large number of other genes
>>>>>> that produce the various male characteristics. Nobody is purely
>>>>>> male or female genetically but most of us are biased one way or the
>>>>>> other strongly and fairly uniformly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I think X and Y are established and well known enough to serve as a
>>>>> useful guide. We can add to that, if necessary, other visual
>>>>> criterias or
>>>>
>>>> About as well established as phlogiston, it is not that simple.
>>>>
>>> Actually it is.
>>
>> It's all X/Y with you guys, regardless of the findings of scientific
>> investigations.
>
> Yep, very easy. Do you have a Y, male, do you not have a Y, female.
> Problem solved!

Except there are XY females in the world (as in, born female, and have
had babies). Does that frighten you? Doesn't matter to me.

*Crossposts to cola from afc plonked.* (And apologies to afc
for the "edgelord drama".)

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.10.2 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"Book never written: "Dog training." by Wille Bite"

On 28/07/2024 14:24, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On 28/07/2024 11:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 10:54:45 +0100
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A GUI is essentially if you are doing any sort of graphical work, even
>>>> typesetting needs some kind of WYSIWG interface.
>>>
>>> Tell that to Donald Knuth! TeX is perfectly usable without a WSYWIG
>>> interface so are all the runoff derivatives.
>>>
>> You do not produce pictures with texts using Tex.
>
> \begin{figure}[H]
> \centering
> \includegraphics[scale=0.65]{tabs/session/qseq66-session-tab.png}
> \caption*{Session Tab Under NSM}
> \end{figure}
>
Wow that really tells me how its going to look.

> To get the PNG file? Use the ImageMagick command-line:
>
> $ import qseq66-session-tab.png
>
That only fetches the image, not the image and the text.
Tex/Latex is a marvellous tool for people who don't have GUIS to produce
textbooks on, but it sucks in comparison to any GUI based page markup
program like Scribus, Quark Xpres , Adobe creative suite and the like.

And tell me how you edit an image without a GUI.

> You have to click on the desired window. Or you can avoid that
> by using the option "-window id". You can even crop the image
> while capturing it: "-crop geometry". Many other transformations are
> possible.
>
> You can optimize (reduce) the size of the PNG using optipng, another
> command-line program.
>
> In any case, Ahem's response about WYSIWYG is still appropriate.
>

Not really.

--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

On 2024-07-28 7:48 a.m., Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Andreas Eder wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Sa 27 Jul 2024 at 19:56, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 27 Jul 2024 14:19:23 -0400
>>> CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>
> ^
> |
> The said swine
>
>> <brevsnip>
>>
>> I'm afraid this is pearl before the swine.
>
> It cracks me up that people, even if they don't understand it, will accept
> the principles of physics, chemistry, electronics, medicine that are manifest
> in our equipment, electronic devices, and cures, but reject certain
> findings of (micro)biology, geology, and medicine that may conflict with
> their "religion".
>
> For a long time we believed that the Earth was only 4004 fyears old.

The principles of physics, chemistry, electronics and medicine can be
reproduced and observed. You can't reproduce a mentally-ill transsexual.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On 7/28/24 02:04, D wrote:
>
>

>>>
>>> Nonsense, I disgaree with your definition. Y: male, X: female. Done.
>>> Gender dysphoria has nothing to do with reality but is a mental
>>> illness that should be treated by a good psychologist.
>>
>> Mutilation and hormones should not be the first solution proposed as
>> it is today.
>>
>
> Amen! It is sad to see politically sanctioned mutilation of children
> happening. The politicians should be sent to jail.

Utter Nonsense. Children are never treated surgically by
Gender Reassignment Surgery. It is all right for the child labor
laws to change rather than hire the immigrants who came here for
work as well as to escape the political violence in their home
countries but I digress.
. Of course in the late middle ages
and Renaissance the Roman Catholic Church castrated children for
the sake of their voices producing the formerly male adults
known as Castratos whose voices were incredible. The church was
unhappy though with the sinfully lives of former choristers who
performed in Opera and were the lovers of many ladies.
bliss

--
b l i s s - S F 4 e v e r at D S L E x t r e m e dot com

On Sun, 28 Jul 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 28/07/2024 10:11, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 27 Jul 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/07/2024 21:46, D wrote:
>>>> No matter how hard you idiots want to imagine something which is contrary
>>>> to fact, it will never become reality.
>>>
>>> And yet the whole of the Liberal Left depends on the propsosition that
>>> what you *imagine* to be true IS THE TRUTH.
>>>
>>> Bandar Logic.
>>> "We all say it, so IT MUST BE TRUE".
>>> Truly they have the Dewanee.
>>
>> Amen! That is what makes it so frustrating to try and debate them. They
>> just shout louder and ignore what you say.
>
> the late great Sir Roger Scrution remarked that 'you cannot reason a person
> out of a position he was not reasoned into in the first place'
>
> It is simple metaphysics, like choosing to believe in God because it makes
> you feel better.
>
> And then its not *your* problem, its Gods problem innit? Ins'allah...
>
> Transgender metaphysics redefines behaviours as not something you have a
> choice over or control of, but 'something you were born with' this allowing
> people to evade all responsibility for it.
>
> A gay friend refutes this 'you are born with DNA: the rest is *what happens
> afterwards*'
>
> Transgenderism is classic Marxist metaphysics. It's always *someone else's*
> fault. THEY are 'oppressing' YOU, and you have natural rights (no one has
> natural rights) and your only recourse is to Join The Revolution to over
> throw THEM.

Yes, and I think identity politics is a logical continuation of marxism.
As capitalist made the working class obsolete, more or less, in the
western world, new divisions need to constantly be created in order to get
the us vs them + oppression threat, to rally the masses.

The thing is, that this eventually makes cooperation through one political
party impossible when the nr of identities become unmanageable. So either
it collapses, _or_ if it goes on to the bitter end, you end up with
_individualism_ where every single individual is different, and therefore
should be respect as an individual and human being, which kind of brings
us to libertarianism.

> Whereas the conservative ethic is summed up by the immortal saying I first
> heard from my geography master as he put the whole class in detention
>
> "Life is rough, tough and desperately unjust
> Get used to it."

This is the truth! This is one of the first things I teach my students to
prepare them for working life. I also teach them not to play the victim
card, and to work hard, extremely hard.

The ones who get it usually perform very well and go on to a bright future
within the field of IT.

> Or as I inadvertently remarked to a failed suicide in the critical assessment
> unit
> "Life's a bitch' - and then you die".
>
> He laughed. I figure it helped...

Are you a psychologist? Sounds like brilliant shock treatment instead of
teaching the victim mentality.

On Sun, 28 Jul 2024, CrudeSausage wrote:

> On 2024-07-28 5:06 a.m., D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 27 Jul 2024, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-07-27 2:16 p.m., D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 27 Jul 2024, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-07-27 1:33 a.m., 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/26/24 8:55 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-07-26 3:32 a.m., 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/24/24 9:30 PM, Heil Lunduke! Mein Forther! wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Maintainer banned for naming our favorite Jewish Software Fuhrer!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lunduke is Jewish and somehow a bunch of queer white men keep
>>>>>>>>> calling
>>>>>>>>> him, 'anti-semite'. Trans supremacist nutjobs beg for a final
>>>>>>>>> solution.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Gnome SUCKS anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> KDE sucks more though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    KDE is much more "usable" ... however at this
>>>>>>    point it's become insanely fat, drags down the
>>>>>>    CPU unacceptably and far MORE places where it
>>>>>>    can go wrong. Seems to want to be Winders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    LXDE/XFCE *much* better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yesterday, I was looking to try out Debian since it's one of the few
>>>>> distributions that hasn't gone down the social justice rabbit hole.
>>>>> Admittedly, I had no idea which desktop environment to select. I tried
>>>>> LXQt because I've been aware of the project for years but it looks like
>>>>> it's not yet ready for prime time. I then tried KDE and was reminded of
>>>>> why I didn't like it in the first place. I want to avoid GNOME because
>>>>> it is dyong, consumed by the progressive virus. I'd have chosen Cinnamon
>>>>> but if I wanted to use that, I'd just use Linux Mint. XFCE is probably
>>>>> the way to go.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Been using XFCE for many years and am very happy with it. When it comes
>>>> to distributions without a woke or socialist code of conduct I've found
>>>> the following:
>>>>
>>>> OpenBSD by far the best in terms of refusing to have one and focusing on
>>>> shut up and code.
>>>>
>>>> Then you have debian and free and netbsd, I think they are kind of
>>>> alright.
>>>>
>>>> Slackware and Artix I think are also distributions without too much CoC
>>>> bullsh*t.
>>>>
>>>> You probably also have seen that Lunduke wants to start his own
>>>> distribution with CoC b.s. so that could be promising as well! =)
>>>
>>> I might just end up waiting for Lunduke's distribution. I imagine that
>>> once it's released, the press around it will be purposefully negative.
>>> When that happens, I'll be glad to install it.
>>>
>>
>> Of course it will be negative, it's Lunduke! ;) I can already imagine,
>> "Nazi distribution from Nazi leader", "Distirbution for the nets nazis" and
>> so on and so on ad nauseam.
>>
>> But distrohopping is the way of life. I used Ubuntu until they introduced
>> their idiotic shopping lens in Unity, then I switched to Opensuse, but the
>> lizard has now gone completely woke I fair and is dipped in rainbows. So
>> next time, we'll have a look at the code of conducts, and it will probably
>> be one of the above. Perhaps I'll even approach each community as a
>> conservative christian and see what happens if I throw in a little "Jesus"
>> or two.
>
> Lunduke is a very freedom-minded individual to a point that he has a Gab
> account and even agreed to return to the platform despite its obvious hatred
> of Jews. I told him that same as the constant Polish jokes, he'll start to
> find the Jewish stuff funny after a while if he doesn't take it too
> seriously. Gab clearly respects freedom a lot more than Mastodon or X does,
> so you have to work with the "Nazis" there and get your own dose of freedom.
>

I have similar experiences from mastodon. The nazis can be quite fun and
you can actually have nice discussions with them (a few) even though I'm
not big on the "burn the jews" stuff.

Also keep in mind that mastodon is not one thing, but many. So I find that
poa.st, liberdon and a few other instances have a very high ceiling when
it comes to what you can say and do.

The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 28/07/2024 14:24, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> On 28/07/2024 11:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 10:54:45 +0100
>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A GUI is essentially if you are doing any sort of graphical work, even
>>>>> typesetting needs some kind of WYSIWG interface.
>>>>
>>>> Tell that to Donald Knuth! TeX is perfectly usable without a WSYWIG
>>>> interface so are all the runoff derivatives.
>>>>
>>> You do not produce pictures with texts using Tex.
>>
>> \begin{figure}[H]
>> \centering
>> \includegraphics[scale=0.65]{tabs/session/qseq66-session-tab.png}
>> \caption*{Session Tab Under NSM}
>> \end{figure}
>>
> Wow that really tells me how its going to look.

Not really an issue. You can preview the PDF, edit the scale, save the
..tex file, and the viewer will immediately update.

After awhile, you get to know what scale to use.

>> To get the PNG file? Use the ImageMagick command-line:
>>
>> $ import qseq66-session-tab.png
>>
> That only fetches the image, not the image and the text.

What text? It's an image.

> Tex/Latex is a marvellous tool for people who don't have GUIS to produce
> textbooks on, but it sucks in comparison to any GUI based page markup
> program like Scribus, Quark Xpres , Adobe creative suite and the like.

I guess that's why this exists:

https://authorservices.wiley.com/author-resources/book-authors/prepare-your-manuscript/wiley-latex-template.html

Using the Wiley LaTeX template allows authors to focus on the content
rather than the appearance of their submission. The template facilitates
structuring of the manuscript, e.g. managing heading levels, and the
straightforward creation of equations.

> And tell me how you edit an image without a GUI.

The bone of contention was WYSIWYG, not GUI. And yet many refinements
can be done by ImageMagick or GIMP scripts.

>> In any case, Ahem's response about WYSIWYG is still appropriate.
>
> Not really.

You juss a hater :-D

--
You own a dog, but you can only feed a cat.

On Sun, 28 Jul 2024, vallor wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Jul 2024 11:10:09 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> <a25ea8f3-8959-2ef1-650b-27e420344c71@example.net>:
>
>> On Fri, 26 Jul 2024, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects
>>> royalties:
>>>
>>>> On 26/07/2024 18:18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jul 2024 18:38:37 +0200 D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jul 2024, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:06:25 +0200 D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ahh... the book says, show me your chromosomes and I'll show you
>>>>>>>> your gender! ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is surprisingly complex - there's a gene which is usually
>>>>>>> found on the Y chromosone (but sometimes on an X chromosome) that
>>>>>>> (with varying success) activates a very large number of other genes
>>>>>>> that produce the various male characteristics. Nobody is purely
>>>>>>> male or female genetically but most of us are biased one way or the
>>>>>>> other strongly and fairly uniformly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think X and Y are established and well known enough to serve as a
>>>>>> useful guide. We can add to that, if necessary, other visual
>>>>>> criterias or
>>>>>
>>>>> About as well established as phlogiston, it is not that simple.
>>>>>
>>>> Actually it is.
>>>
>>> It's all X/Y with you guys, regardless of the findings of scientific
>>> investigations.
>>
>> Yep, very easy. Do you have a Y, male, do you not have a Y, female.
>> Problem solved!
>
> Except there are XY females in the world (as in, born female, and have
> had babies). Does that frighten you? Doesn't matter to me.
>
> *Crossposts to cola from afc plonked.* (And apologies to afc
> for the "edgelord drama".)

Read the text, understand, retard or shut up.

Women with Swyer syndrome cannot conceive naturally because they do not
produce viable eggs due to the absence of functional ovaries. As a result,
natural conception is not possible.

Ergo, Y, male.

Idiot and you're banned! ;)

On 28/07/2024 16:55, CrudeSausage wrote:
> On 2024-07-28 7:48 a.m., Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> Andreas Eder wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> On Sa 27 Jul 2024 at 19:56, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 27 Jul 2024 14:19:23 -0400
>>>> CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>
>>          ^
>>          |
>>        The said swine
>>
>>> <brevsnip>
>>>
>>> I'm afraid this is pearl before the swine.
>>
>> It cracks me up that people, even if they don't understand it, will
>> accept
>> the principles of physics, chemistry, electronics, medicine that are
>> manifest
>> in our equipment, electronic devices, and cures, but reject certain
>> findings of (micro)biology, geology, and medicine that may conflict with
>> their "religion".
>>
>> For a long time we believed that the Earth was only 4004 fyears old.
>
> The principles of physics, chemistry, electronics and medicine can be
> reproduced and observed. You can't reproduce a mentally-ill transsexual.
>

It is the difference between physics and metaphysics.
'Gravity causes motion between two masses' is physics

'Causality is a universal principle' is metaphysics

--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

On 7/28/24 06:39, Relf wrote:
> Even if "your" child is 100% bought & paid for
> ( i.e. you bought an egg & paid someone to carry it to term )
> you can still be "tricked"* into allowing "gender-affirming treatment".
> [ *: Elon Musk's word, spoken recently,
> Re: Vivian Wilson, Musk’s 20-year-old transgender "daughter" ]

What does this have to do with computer folklore?

On So 28 Jul 2024 at 14:00, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 28/07/2024 11:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 10:54:45 +0100
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> A GUI is essentially if you are doing any sort of graphical work, even
>>> typesetting needs some kind of WYSIWG interface.
>> Tell that to Donald Knuth! TeX is perfectly usable without a WSYWIG
>> interface so are all the runoff derivatives.
>>
> You do not produce pictures with texts using Tex.

Oh you can. Have a look a Tikz.
Once again you show, that you do not know what you are talking about!

'Andreas

--
ceterum censeo redmondinem esse delendam

Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> writes:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
> Ahhh, good ol' RUNOFF. I used it in the 70's when it's input was
> all UPPER-CASE text but mixed-case documents could be generated.
>
> These days I have used LaTeX and good ol' vi to generate PDF documents of two
> or three hundred pages containing graphics. No way in hell I would do that with
> Microsoft Word or LibreOffice. The former is especially painful. People have
> used it to write books; the thought makes me shudder.
>
> Of course, you need some kind of viewer that can show images.

MIT CTSS/7094 had (upper/lower case) 2741 terminals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TYPSET_and_RUNOFF#CTSS
The original RUNOFF type-setting program for CTSS was written by Jerome
H. Saltzer circa 1964. Bob Morris and Doug McIlroy translated that from
MAD to BCPL.[3] Morris and McIlroy then moved the BCPL version to
Multics when the IBM 7094 on which CTSS ran was being shut down.

Some of the CTSS people went to the 5th flr to do Multics. Others went
to the IBM science center on the 4th flr and did virtual machines. They
originally wanted 360/50 to do hardware mods to add virtual memory, but
all the extra 360/50s were going to the FAA ATC program, and so had to
settle for a 360/40 ... doing CP40/CMS. Then when 360/67 standard with
virtual memory became available, CP40/CMS morphs into CP67/CMS

.... also RUNOFF ported to CP67/CMS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TYPSET_and_RUNOFF#Other_versions_and_implementations
The origin of IBM's SCRIPT software began in 1968 when IBM contracted
Stuart Madnick of MIT to write a simple document preparation tool[7] for
CP/67,[8] which he modelled on MIT's CTSS RUNOFF.[9]

Then in 1969, GML was invented at the science center and GML tag
processing was added to SCRIPT. A decade later GML morphs into ISO
standard SGML and after another decade, morphs into HTML at CERN. First
webserver in the US was done on (CERN sister institution) Stanford SLAC
on their VM370 (descendant of CP67)
https://ahro.slac.stanford.edu/wwwslac-exhibit
https://ahro.slac.stanford.edu/wwwslac-exhibit/early-web-chronology-and-documents-1991-1994

primary person (before) inventing GML (in 1969), was hired to push
Cambridge's wide-area network (which morphs into the internal corporate
network, larger than arpanet/internet from just about the beginning
until sometime mid/late 80s)
https://web.archive.org/web/20230402212558/http://www.sgmlsource.com/history/jasis.htm
Actually, the law office application was the original motivation for the
project, something I was allowed to do part-time because of my knowledge
of the user requirements. My real job was to encourage the staffs of the
various scientific centers to make use of the CP-67-based Wide Area
Network that was centered in Cambridge.

technology also used for the corporate sponsored univ BITNET
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BITNET
in 89, merges with CSNET
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSNET
to form CREN:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_for_Research_and_Educational_Networking

person responsible for science center wide-area network (following
also references the author of original RUNOFF)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edson_Hendricks
In June 1975, MIT Professor Jerry Saltzer accompanied Hendricks to
DARPA, where Hendricks described his innovations to the principal
scientist, Dr. Vinton Cerf. Later that year in September 15-19 of 75,
Cerf and Hendricks were the only two delegates from the United States,
to attend a workshop on Data Communications at the International
Institute for Applied Systems Analysis, 2361 Laxenburg Austria where
again, Hendricks spoke publicly about his innovative design which paved
the way to the Internet as we know it today.

SJMerc article about Edson (he passed aug2020) and "IBM'S MISSED
OPPORTUNITY WITH THE INTERNET" (gone behind paywall but lives free at
wayback machine)
https://web.archive.org/web/20000124004147/http://www1.sjmercury.com/svtech/columns/gillmor/docs/dg092499.htm
Also from wayback machine, some additional (IBM missed) references from
Ed's website
https://web.archive.org/web/20000115185349/http://www.edh.net/bungle.htm

trivia: I took two credit hr intro to fortran/computers class and at the
end of the semester, hired to rewrite 1401 MPIO for 360/30. Univ getting
360/67 for tss/360. to replace 709/1401 and temporary got 360/30 (that
had 1401 microcode emulation) to replace 1401, pending arrival of 360/67
(Univ shutdown datacenter on weekend, and I would have it dedicated,
although 48hrs w/o sleep made Monday classes hard). Within a year of
taking intro class, 360/67 showed up and I was hired fulltime
responsibility for OS/360 (tss/360 didn't come to production, so ran as
360/65 with os/360) ... and I continued to have my dedicated weekend
time. Student fortran ran under second on 709 (tape to tape), but
initial over a minute on 360/65. I install HASP and it cuts time in
half. I then start revamping stage2 sysgen to place datasets and PDS
members to optimize disk seek and multi-track searches, cutting another
2/3rds to 12.9secs; never got better than 709 until I install univ of
waterloo WATFOR. My 1st SYSGEN was R9.5MFT, then started redoing stage2
sysgen for R11MFT. MVT shows up with R12 but I ddin't do MVT gen until
R15/16 (15/16 disk format shows up being able to specify VTOC cyl
.... aka place other than cyl0 to reduce avg. arm seek).

CSC comes out to install CP67/CMS (3rd after CSC itself and MIT Lincoln
Labs), which I mostly got to play with during my weekend dedicated
time. First few months I mostly spent rewriting CP67 pathlenghts for
running os/360 in virtual machine; test os/360 stream 322secs, initially
ran 856secs virtually; CP67 CPU 534secs got down to CP67 CPU
113secs. CP67 had 1052 & 2741 support with automatic terminal type
identification (controller SAD CCW to switch port scanner terminal
type). Univ had some TTY terminals so I added TTY support integrated
with automatic terminal type.

I then wanted to have single dial-up number ("hunt group") for all
terminals ... but IBM had taken short-cut and hardwired port line-speed
.... which kicks off univ. program to build clone controller, building
channel interface board for Interdata/3, programmed to emulate IBM
controller with inclusion of automatic line speed. Later upgraded to
Interdata/4 for channel interface and cluster of Interdata/3s for port
interfaces. Four of us get written up responsible for (some part of) IBM
clone controller business ... initially sold by Interdata and then by
Perkin-Elmer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdata
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkin-Elmer#Computer_Systems_Division

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

Philosopher: I've had all the vaxxes to date, and they haven't killed me.

Yet President Biden has Covid_19.

On 2024-07-28, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> A GUI is essentially if you are doing any sort of graphical work, even
> typesetting needs some kind of WYSIWG interface.
>
> I need a GUI to watch videos, edit pictures, create 3D models, and
> generate things like PCBs and printable plastic objects.,
>
> A simple windows style interface is perfectly reasonable.

Reasonable, perhaps. Mandatory, definitely not.

I don't need a GUI to watch videos or listen to MP3s. I run mpv
from a command prompt - no GUI involved. (Note: I don't consider
the window which opens to play a video to be a GUI - it's just an
output medium.)

> The point is the to make it simple, configurable and reliable so its a
> tool, not an imposition.

Several of us here consider a gratuitous GUI to be an imposition.
I want to scream when I watch a user pointing and clicking and
pointing and clicking and dragging and dropping and... oops,
where did I accidentally drop that icon?... give me a minute
to find the file again... while all the time proclaiming how
_easy_ it is. Meanwhile, I've done what I need with a dozen
keystrokes. And I resent anyone trying to take that away from me.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>On 2024-07-28, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> A GUI is essentially if you are doing any sort of graphical work, even
>> typesetting needs some kind of WYSIWG interface.
>>
>> I need a GUI to watch videos, edit pictures, create 3D models, and
>> generate things like PCBs and printable plastic objects.,
>>
>> A simple windows style interface is perfectly reasonable.
>
>Reasonable, perhaps. Mandatory, definitely not.
>
>I don't need a GUI to watch videos or listen to MP3s. I run mpv
>from a command prompt - no GUI involved. (Note: I don't consider
>the window which opens to play a video to be a GUI - it's just an
>output medium.)
>
>> The point is the to make it simple, configurable and reliable so its a
>> tool, not an imposition.
>
>Several of us here consider a gratuitous GUI to be an imposition.
>I want to scream when I watch a user pointing and clicking and
>pointing and clicking and dragging and dropping and... oops,
>where did I accidentally drop that icon?... give me a minute
>to find the file again... while all the time proclaiming how
>_easy_ it is. Meanwhile, I've done what I need with a dozen
>keystrokes. And I resent anyone trying to take that away from me.

Some people want that, it's not an invalid choice, I like the GUI-
centric Cinnamon interface of Mint, but the terminal is still useful,
too, I just like to have a computer that functions, for me that
includes a lot of GUI features.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 7/28/24 14:44, Relf wrote:
> Philosopher: I've had all the vaxxes to date, and they haven't killed me.
>
> Yet President Biden has Covid_19.

Are you so clueless that you don't understand what odds are?

On 2024-07-28 12:32 p.m., Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 7/28/24 02:04, D wrote:
>>
>>
>
>>>>
>>>> Nonsense, I disgaree with your definition. Y: male, X: female. Done.
>>>> Gender dysphoria has nothing to do with reality but is a mental
>>>> illness that should be treated by a good psychologist.
>>>
>>> Mutilation and hormones should not be the first solution proposed as
>>> it is today.
>>>
>>
>> Amen! It is sad to see politically sanctioned mutilation of children
>> happening. The politicians should be sent to jail.
>
>     Utter Nonsense.  Children are never treated surgically by
> Gender Reassignment Surgery.

They received puberty blockers, hormones and in many cases surgery to
remove the penis and attempt to create a vagina. You seem to be
strikingly oblivious to what's going on. I get the impression that you
were one of the brain-dead hippies of the 1960s.

> It is all right for the child labor
> laws to change rather than hire the immigrants who came here for
> work as well as to escape the political violence in their home
> countries but I digress.
>         .  Of course in the late middle ages
> and Renaissance the Roman Catholic Church castrated children for
> the sake of their voices producing the formerly male adults
> known as Castratos whose voices were incredible. The church was
> unhappy though with the sinfully lives of former choristers who
> performed in Opera and were the lovers of many ladies.

That was wrong too.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2024-07-28, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> A GUI is essentially if you are doing any sort of graphical work, even
>> typesetting needs some kind of WYSIWG interface.
>>
>> I need a GUI to watch videos, edit pictures, create 3D models, and
>> generate things like PCBs and printable plastic objects.,
>>
>> A simple windows style interface is perfectly reasonable.
>
> Reasonable, perhaps. Mandatory, definitely not.
>
> I don't need a GUI to watch videos or listen to MP3s. I run mpv
> from a command prompt - no GUI involved. (Note: I don't consider
> the window which opens to play a video to be a GUI - it's just an
> output medium.)
>
>> The point is the to make it simple, configurable and reliable so its a
>> tool, not an imposition.
>
> Several of us here consider a gratuitous GUI to be an imposition.
> I want to scream when I watch a user pointing and clicking and
> pointing and clicking and dragging and dropping and... oops,
> where did I accidentally drop that icon?... give me a minute
> to find the file again... while all the time proclaiming how
> _easy_ it is. Meanwhile, I've done what I need with a dozen
> keystrokes. And I resent anyone trying to take that away from me.
>

I use both, depending on what’s easier for the task at hand. It might
possibly be easier to use command for some of the stuff I use the GUI for,
but perhaps that might require me to memorize some obscure commands or
options for something I may only do once in my lifetime. I would never want
to go back to a non-GUI editor, although it is certainly possible.

--
Pete

On 7/28/24 05:15, chrisv wrote:
> Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>
>> Transgender people have been written of through-out history
>
> How could that be, when it's a recently made-up term? Some guy who
> wishes he was a girl, or who gets a thrill out of wearing women's
> clothing, or who likes to suck dick, isn't "transgender"

For example the Chevalier d'ERon a character who did
spying both as male and female though they preferred female
dress at court.
>
>> sometimes in positions of trust and prominence other times
>> as amusements for the elite.
>
> Of course there have always been perverts and weirdos, many of whom
> were in positions of power, along with their cohorts. The Catholic
> Church was a haven for them!
>
Read some history.
--
b l i s s - S F 4 e v e r at D S L E x t r e m e dot com

On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 13:36:56 -0700
Bobbie Sellers <blissInSanFrancisco@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

> On 7/28/24 05:15, chrisv wrote:
> > Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> >
> >> Transgender people have been written of through-out history
> >
> > How could that be, when it's a recently made-up term? Some guy who
> > wishes he was a girl, or who gets a thrill out of wearing women's
> > clothing, or who likes to suck dick, isn't "transgender"
>
> For example the Chevalier d'ERon a character who did
> spying both as male and female though they preferred female
> dress at court.
> >
> >> sometimes in positions of trust and prominence other times
> >> as amusements for the elite.
> >
> > Of course there have always been perverts and weirdos, many of whom
> > were in positions of power, along with their cohorts. The Catholic
> > Church was a haven for them!
> >
> Read some history.
>

The person was both a man and a woman.

Charles d'Éon de Beaumont or Charlotte d'Éon de Beaumont[a] (5 October
1728 – 21 May 1810), usually known as the Chevalier d'Éon or the
Chevalière d'Éon,[b] was a French diplomat, spy, and soldier. D'Éon
fought in the Seven Years' War, and spied for France while in Russia
and England. D'Éon had androgynous physical characteristics and natural
abilities as a mimic and a spy. D'Éon appeared publicly as a man and
pursued masculine occupations for 49 years, although during that time,
d'Éon successfully infiltrated the court of Empress Elizabeth of Russia
by presenting as a woman. Starting in 1777, d'Éon lived as a woman and
was officially recognized as a woman by King Louis XVI.[2]

Androgyny

Androgyny is the possession of both masculine and feminine
characteristics.[1] Androgyny may be expressed with regard to
biological sex, gender identity, or gender expression.

When androgyny refers to mixed biological sex characteristics in
humans, it often refers to conditions in which characteristics of both
sexes are clearly expressed in a single individual, with fully
developed sexual organs of both sexes, also called hermaphrodites.

Some troll wrote,

> Philosopher: I've had all the vaxxes to date, and they haven't killed
> me.

> Yet President Biden has Covid_19.
Where the hell do you get your news?
Demand faster delivery!

Biden is back in the Oval Office behind the Resolute desk
running the country as well as he can with the Constitutional
limitations on the Power of the Presidency.

Oh and I have every Covid-19 vaccine available but I still caught a
cold (or else am having an extreme exertional reaction).
bliss