DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:

>>> For some, the Microsoft Corp and their insistence on telemetry is reason
>>> enough to not use Windows. As is the closed source.
>>>
>>> For me, the hobbyist (cr)apps endemic to Linux are a turnoff. It's a
>>> big compromise I'm not willing to make (but I do like to support
>>> small/one-man developers, like the Taiwanese guy who codes Notepad++).
>>
>> You are making my argument for me while supporting M$ in creating
>> "telemetry" that is trespassing in people's hardware space.
>
>Why is telemetry in quotes? It's not trespassing, since to use Windows
>you have to give MS permission to collect whatever data they say they're
>collecting.
>
>Do you know what personal data is being sucked off your Linux system by
>all the FOSS apps you run? No you don't. Feeb didn't either, until I
>clued him in that cooledit phoned home when it was first installed and
>sent some hardware specs back to the developer.

Certainly I'm less worried about telemetry than I would be with MS.

> > And I paid $200 for it?
>
>You could've gotten it much cheaper, legally.
>
>Right now, $23 for Win11 Pro
>
>https://www.stacksocial.com/sales/microsoft-windows-11-pro-6

Oh yeah, the white guys on IRC thought it was hilarious I paid that
('cause Caucasian nerds are so loyal to each other that they try to
get a hot deal on Winblows, because fuck Bill Gates, you *are* Bill
Gates without a billion dollars, but anyway), but it's a matter of
wanting to have indisputable proof that I owned a license for Win10.

>> Wow. Linux for free or voluntary donations to
>> organizations sounds like a pretty convincing deal, to me,
>
>Free Linux isn't a cost worth bearing. It's fun to tinker with
>sometimes, but day to day? Not a chance.

Just silliness, it runs on supercomputers, it's supported on the
desktop. You just have to open your mind.

>> I can run
>> apps to replace everything except freakin' Usenet (and could with that
>> app too, I just don't wish to). I think people who want good value
>> know Linux.
>
>A LOT more people are willing to pay for Apple and Windows.

I *did* pay, I had Win11, I deleted it.

>>>> but people accept Windows
>>>> as standard, one can like Jeff stick with one old version that doesn't
>>>> bloat.
>>>
>>> Relf is still on Win10 I believe.
>>
>> It's his way of having what I have - freeze M$ at an earlier time.
>
>6 months ago I setup Win7 on an older computer (that I donated). I
>could still be happy with it, but a lot of current software isn't
>supported on it.

That's the point, you might well could run Linux on that computer.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 19:22:22 -0400, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote in
<v7hgrc$3o9rs$2@dont-email.me>:

> On 7/20/2024 3:40 PM, Joel wrote:
>> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> I was drunk off my ass
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had a lot of stronger beer.
>>>>>
>>>>> I asked why, not how.
>>>>
>>>> I probably wanted to keep drinking. I don't remember specifically
>>>> thinking about stopping at some point, but I don't remember the
>>>> experience well generally.
>>>
>>> If I keep asking Why?, at some point you'll reveal why you feel the
>>> need, at 40+ years old, to get 'drunk off my ass'.
>>>
>>> Linux Mint would be my guess.
>>
>>
>> Is MS paying you to make yourself look unrealistic? Linux is provably
>> better than Windows NT-64bit-modern-version,
>
> Sez you. It's not faster or better looking or more stable or easier to
> use than Windows. Manual installation vs Windows is probably a wash.
> *Maybe* - depending on the distro - Linux uses marginally less hardware
> resources than Windows, but the extremely low cost of memory and hard
> drive space makes that a moot point.
>
> It has some advantages for setup and development of non-GUI software,
> but WSL generally removes that advantage by putting a Linux kernel and
> bash shell and even graphical Linux apps one click away. Plus there's
> MSYS2.

So Windows is better because you can run Linux on it?

Some of us, with abilities, forego the (proprietary) middleman.

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.9.9 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"I'm not tense, just terribly A*L*E*R*T!!"

On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 19:22:22 -0400, DFS wrote:

> It's not faster or better looking or more stable or easier to
> use than Windows.

Certainly faster, certainly more stable, easier to maintain. And it gives
you a choice as for looks, whereas Windows doesn’t. So naturally Linux can
be better-looking than Windows, even taking ne gustibus non disputandum
est into account.

On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 19:50:57 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Why is telemetry in quotes? It's not trespassing, since to use Windows
> you have to give MS permission to collect whatever data they say they're
> collecting.

Agreement under duress is generally not considered to be agreement at all.

On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 20:17:53 -0400, Joel wrote:

> [Linux runs on supercomputers, it's supported on the desktop.

Not just desktop, but workstation. Desktop-plus.

Le 20-07-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
>
> Manual installation vs Windows is probably a wash.

Your information is very outdated. Twenty five years ago it was
difficult to install Linux, you needed to have the right material or
hope for the drivers to be available. Things have improved by now. Of
course, if you look at Linux From Scratch, you'll say it can be very
difficult and take a lot of time. But it's a choice. If you choose the
easy way, it's easy. You can download an iso image put it on an USB
stick and use Linux from it. When you want a new computer, you can just
take your old hard drive, put it in the new computer and it just work.

> *Maybe* - depending on the distro - Linux uses marginally less hardware
> resources than Windows,

I saw enough computers to old to run Windows getting a new life after
installing Linux on it to claim it's a certainty, not a maybe. It
doesn't depend on the distro, it depends more on the Window Manager.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 20-07-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
> Do you know what personal data is being sucked off your Linux system by
> all the FOSS apps you run? No you don't.

A few years ago looking at my network I saw Firefox was sending
informations. I disabled that very fast after discovering it. I don't
use Firefox anymore, so I don't care. The fact is with Linux you can
check what is happening and take care of it if you disagree. You can't
with Microsoft.

> Feeb didn't either,

That's not a good argument.

> Free Linux isn't a cost worth bearing. It's fun to tinker with
> sometimes, but day to day? Not a chance.

You don't do it day to day. When you are happy with what you did, you
stay with it.

> A LOT more people are willing to pay for Apple and Windows.

For Apple, yes. For Windows, no, they pay because they believe there is
no other possibility.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 19:22:22 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> It's not faster or better looking or more stable or easier to
>> use than Windows.
>
> Certainly faster, certainly more stable, easier to maintain. And it gives
> you a choice as for looks, whereas Windows doesn’t. So naturally Linux can
> be better-looking than Windows, even taking ne gustibus non disputandum
> est into account.

I've found the Win 10 UI to be a fscking mess. Happy to no longer deal with
Windows (except to test code in a VM.

--
Q: How many gradual (sorry, that's supposed to be "graduate") students
does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: "I'm afraid we don't know, but make my stipend tax-free, give my
advisor a $30,000 grant of the taxpayer's money, and I'm sure he
can tell me how to do the gruntwork for him so he can take the
credit for answering this incredibly vital question."

On 2024-07-21 6:42 a.m., Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 19:22:22 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> It's not faster or better looking or more stable or easier to
>>> use than Windows.
>>
>> Certainly faster, certainly more stable, easier to maintain. And it gives
>> you a choice as for looks, whereas Windows doesn’t. So naturally Linux can
>> be better-looking than Windows, even taking ne gustibus non disputandum
>> est into account.
>
> I've found the Win 10 UI to be a fscking mess.

It is. The inconsistency between the old environment and the new one is
glaring. Still, some people such as myself appreciate that things like
the Device Manager are still accessible regardless of how clunky it
looks in comparison to the rest. The modern apps also seem to break a
lot more often than the old win32 ones too, a problem that only surfaced
as of 10.

> Happy to no longer deal with
> Windows (except to test code in a VM.

You develop. Developers never seem to prefer Windows. Users almost
always do though.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Gender and race are both "social constructs" so sexism and racism don't
exist

On 7/21/2024 6:20 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 20-07-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
>> Do you know what personal data is being sucked off your Linux system by
>> all the FOSS apps you run? No you don't.
>
> A few years ago looking at my network I saw Firefox was sending
> informations. I disabled that very fast after discovering it. I don't
> use Firefox anymore, so I don't care. The fact is with Linux you can
> check what is happening and take care of it if you disagree. You can't
> with Microsoft.

Quit with the ignorance

https://www.wireshark.org/download.html
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/tcpview
https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/cports.html
https://systeminformer.sourceforge.io/
https://www.appsvoid.com/products/connections-viewer/
https://netstatagent.com/
https://portsmonitor.com/

>> Feeb didn't either,
>
> That's not a good argument.

It IS a good argument, because if the "Linux technical elite master
expert who knows exactly what happens at all times on my machine" was
being duped and spied on by a FOSS app, what chance does the average
Linux point-and-clicker have?

>> Free Linux isn't a cost worth bearing. It's fun to tinker with
>> sometimes, but day to day? Not a chance.
>
> You don't do it day to day. When you are happy with what you did, you
> stay with it.

I like the easy to setup and powerful compiler (gcc) and bash shell on
Linux, but that's about it.

>> A LOT more people are willing to pay for Apple and Windows.
>
> For Apple, yes. For Windows, no, they pay because they believe there is
> no other possibility.

Because only a few disgruntled Linux advocates are able to evaluate
operating systems and application software. The rest of the world is
ignorant and thinks there's only one operating system in the entire
world. (I hope you understand sarcasm.)

On 7/21/2024 3:27 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 19:50:57 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> Why is telemetry in quotes? It's not trespassing, since to use Windows
>> you have to give MS permission to collect whatever data they say they're
>> collecting.
>
> Agreement under duress is generally not considered to be agreement at all.

What duress?

In the real world (not Linux bizarro world) people are EXCITED to be
using Windows and all that great application software and games. A new
version of Windows is a worldwide tech media event.

OTOH, you can't even give Linux away. The 300-400 new distros released
each year are just ignored.

For evidence, ask Creepy Ahlstrom what happened when he tried to force
Linux/OpenOffice on his wife.

On 7/20/2024 3:38 PM, Feeb Russell wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 14:43:05 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> On 7/20/2024 12:22 PM, Joel wrote:
>>> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> I was drunk off my ass
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why?
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a lot of stronger beer.
>>>>
>>>> I asked why, not how.
>>>
>>>
>>> I probably wanted to keep drinking. I don't remember specifically
>>> thinking about stopping at some point, but I don't remember the
>>> experience well generally.
>>
>>
>> If I keep asking Why?, at some point you'll reveal why you feel the
>> need, at 40+ years old, to get 'drunk off my ass'.
>>
>
>
> Well, then, why don't you breast feed your little baby?
>
> Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
>
> Why don't you breast feed your little darling with your
> fully erect 2 inch cock?
>
> Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
>
> Nux Vomica

I recommend a 3-prong approach to improving your mental health:

1) a drug. Start a long-term SRI treatment for your depression, OCD,
and bitterness. Maybe Zoloft or Prozac.

2) a woman. Look in the mirror and imagine a female as ugly as you on
the outside, but caring and sweet on the inside. That's your target
wife. Find her and treat her well and make a life together.

3) Windows. Drop Linux and embrace Windows and master some good
application software, which will enhance your career and income.

Start the plan today and your life will improve immeasurably.

On Sun, 21 Jul 2024 07:27:05 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> Certainly faster, certainly more stable, easier to maintain. And it
> gives you a choice as for looks, whereas Windows doesn’t. So naturally
> Linux can be better-looking than Windows, even taking ne gustibus non
> disputandum est into account.

'Faster' is problematic.

https://www.phoronix.com/review/windows-linux-mid22adl

Phoronix is a Linux oriented site but they do frequent reviews of Windows
versus various Linux distros on the same hardware. There is always the
question of how benchmarks translate to real world performance of
applications but for the most part the benchmarks show no clear winner.

I prefer Linux for a number of reasons but speed has never been one of
them.

On Sun, 21 Jul 2024 09:07:36 -0400, DFS wrote:

> In the real world (not Linux bizarro world) people are EXCITED to be
> using Windows and all that great application software and games. A new
> version of Windows is a worldwide tech media event.

EXCITED? Sure, a new version is a tech media event. No events, no media,
and the 'journalists; can find a new career pulling shots at Starbucks.

As for the rest of the world, big carrots and big sticks seem to be
ineffective in getting people to switch to the new version. Some of the
new versions have sucked so badly Microsoft moved on rapidly sort of like
when the cat rolls over, falls off the deck, and says 'You didn't see
that!' as she clambers back up.

Le 21-07-2024, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
> On Sun, 21 Jul 2024 07:27:05 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Certainly faster, certainly more stable, easier to maintain. And it
>> gives you a choice as for looks, whereas Windows doesn’t. So naturally
>> Linux can be better-looking than Windows, even taking ne gustibus non
>> disputandum est into account.
>
> 'Faster' is problematic.
>
> https://www.phoronix.com/review/windows-linux-mid22adl
>
> Phoronix is a Linux oriented site but they do frequent reviews of Windows
> versus various Linux distros on the same hardware. There is always the
> question of how benchmarks translate to real world performance of
> applications but for the most part the benchmarks show no clear winner.
>
> I prefer Linux for a number of reasons but speed has never been one of
> them.

They are using Gnome: if you want performance, you chose a lighter WM.
You can't do that with Windows.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On Sun, 21 Jul 2024 09:07:36 -0400, DFS wrote:

> In the real world ... people are EXCITED to be
> using Windows and all that great application software and games.

Sure they are. That’s why, every time Microsoft introduces a new version
of Windows, the users flock to upgrade. They look forward to enjoying new
features, like advertisements in the start menu!

Oh wait, they don’t.

On Sun, 21 Jul 2024 07:38:55 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> Developers never seem to prefer Windows. Users almost
> always do though.

And yet the Steam Deck is doing quite well in the PC gaming market. And
that runs Linux.

On 21 Jul 2024 18:12:02 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Phoronix is a Linux oriented site but they do frequent reviews of
> Windows versus various Linux distros on the same hardware. There is
> always the question of how benchmarks translate to real world
> performance of applications but for the most part the benchmarks show no
> clear winner.

Filesystem and network I/O performance would tend to favour Linux, because
of its more efficient kernel.

Also CPU-intensive workloads, which is why the supercomputer world is 100%
Linux.

DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:

>In the real world (not Linux bizarro world) people are EXCITED to be
>using Windows and all that great application software and games. A new
>version of Windows is a worldwide tech media event.
>
>OTOH, you can't even give Linux away. The 300-400 new distros released
>each year are just ignored.
>
>For evidence, ask Creepy Ahlstrom what happened when he tried to force
>Linux/OpenOffice on his wife.

My computer could dead-end with Win11, if I wanted it to, I realized
even 12 would be overestimating it, but I'd rather it thrive with
Linux.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-07-21, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
> Le 20-07-2024, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Manual installation vs Windows is probably a wash.
>
> Your information is very outdated. Twenty five years ago it was
> difficult to install Linux, you needed to have the right material or
> hope for the drivers to be available. Things have improved by now. Of
> course, if you look at Linux From Scratch, you'll say it can be very
> difficult and take a lot of time. But it's a choice. If you choose the
> easy way, it's easy. You can download an iso image put it on an USB
> stick and use Linux from it. When you want a new computer, you can just
> take your old hard drive, put it in the new computer and it just work.
>
>> *Maybe* - depending on the distro - Linux uses marginally less hardware
>> resources than Windows,
>
> I saw enough computers to old to run Windows getting a new life after
> installing Linux on it to claim it's a certainty, not a maybe. It
> doesn't depend on the distro, it depends more on the Window Manager.

To DuFuS. It's not "Linux uses 'marginally' less hardware resources than
Windows," it's "Linux uses *significantly* less hardware resources than
Windows."

Just to see how well it would work I installed Linux Mint on a Wyse 5060
"thin client" (using the Xfce desktop). It works well. Others mentioned
installing Windows 10 on the same hardware. Those who could get it to
install said it was impractical to use. Windows is way too slow and bloated
to be practical on this hardware.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-07-21 9:07 a.m., DFS wrote:
> On 7/21/2024 3:27 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 19:50:57 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> Why is telemetry in quotes?  It's not trespassing, since to use Windows
>>> you have to give MS permission to collect whatever data they say they're
>>> collecting.
>>
>> Agreement under duress is generally not considered to be agreement at
>> all.
>
>
> What duress?
>
> In the real world (not Linux bizarro world) people are EXCITED to be
> using Windows and all that great application software and games.  A new
> version of Windows is a worldwide tech media event.
>
> OTOH, you can't even give Linux away.  The 300-400 new distros released
> each year are just ignored.
>
> For evidence, ask Creepy Ahlstrom what happened when he tried to force
> Linux/OpenOffice on his wife.

Did she withhold sex? Oh wait, she was already doing that.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Gender and race are both "social constructs" so sexism and racism don't
exist

On 2024-07-21 2:12 p.m., rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jul 2024 07:27:05 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Certainly faster, certainly more stable, easier to maintain. And it
>> gives you a choice as for looks, whereas Windows doesn’t. So naturally
>> Linux can be better-looking than Windows, even taking ne gustibus non
>> disputandum est into account.
>
> 'Faster' is problematic.
>
> https://www.phoronix.com/review/windows-linux-mid22adl
>
> Phoronix is a Linux oriented site but they do frequent reviews of Windows
> versus various Linux distros on the same hardware. There is always the
> question of how benchmarks translate to real world performance of
> applications but for the most part the benchmarks show no clear winner.
>
> I prefer Linux for a number of reasons but speed has never been one of
> them.

Phoronix is the only Linux site I actually trust.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king
Gender and race are both "social constructs" so sexism and racism don't
exist

On 7/21/2024 7:20 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
> On 2024-07-21 9:07 a.m., DFS wrote:
>> On 7/21/2024 3:27 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 19:50:57 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why is telemetry in quotes?  It's not trespassing, since to use Windows
>>>> you have to give MS permission to collect whatever data they say
>>>> they're
>>>> collecting.
>>>
>>> Agreement under duress is generally not considered to be agreement at
>>> all.
>>
>>
>> What duress?
>>
>> In the real world (not Linux bizarro world) people are EXCITED to be
>> using Windows and all that great application software and games.  A
>> new version of Windows is a worldwide tech media event.
>>
>> OTOH, you can't even give Linux away.  The 300-400 new distros
>> released each year are just ignored.
>>
>> For evidence, ask Creepy Ahlstrom what happened when he tried to force
>> Linux/OpenOffice on his wife.
>
> Did she withhold sex? Oh wait, she was already doing that.

She screamed and put the fear of Jayne in him.

Note: 'fear of Jayne' is a nickname for their sex toy.

On 7/21/2024 2:19 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jul 2024 09:07:36 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> In the real world (not Linux bizarro world) people are EXCITED to be
>> using Windows and all that great application software and games. A new
>> version of Windows is a worldwide tech media event.
>
> EXCITED? Sure, a new version is a tech media event. No events, no media,
> and the 'journalists; can find a new career pulling shots at Starbucks.
>
> As for the rest of the world, big carrots and big sticks seem to be
> ineffective in getting people to switch to the new version.

According to
https://gs.statcounter.com/os-version-market-share/windows/desktop/worldwide

Win 11 : 30%
Win 10 : 66%
Win 8.x: 1%
Win 7 : 3%
Win XP : 0.4%

Win 11's 30% share of the Windows base after 2.75 years looks pretty good.

> Some of the
> new versions have sucked so badly Microsoft moved on rapidly sort of like
> when the cat rolls over, falls off the deck, and says 'You didn't see
> that!' as she clambers back up.

heh!

Yrs from
Version Released prior version
======================================
Win XP Oct 2001
Win Vista Nov 2006 5 years
Win 7 Oct 2009 3 years
Win 8 Aug 2012 3 years
Win 10 Jul 2015 3 years
Win 11 Oct 2021 6 years
Win 12 Fall 2025 4 years (speculation)
======================================

On Sun, 21 Jul 2024 19:39:32 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Win 11 : 30%
> Win 10 : 66%
> Win 8.x: 1%
> Win 7 : 3%
> Win XP : 0.4%
>
>
> Win 11's 30% share of the Windows base after 2.75 years looks pretty
> good.

Compared to adoption rates of previous versions of Dimdows? Not so good.